“'We Won. We are Still Here:' Black Resistance and Dignified Self-Determination in Africatown, Alabama”

February 10, 2023

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Poynter Fellowship in Journalism: "'We Won. We are Still Here:' Black Resistance and Dignified Self-Determination in Africatown, Alabama"

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00:00Also the director of the African
00:03American Studies program.
00:04He specializes in African American and
00:08southeastern United States folklore,
00:10folklore, and oral narrative.
00:11He is the Co writer and Co producer
00:15of the documentary descendant.
00:17He earned a BA in English and
00:20African American studies from
00:21the University of Virginia and
00:23MA and African American studies
00:24from the University of Wisconsin,
00:26and a PhD in folklore and
00:30ethnomusicology from Indiana University.
00:38Sorry my screen.
00:46Then we have Emmett Lewis,
00:48senior who is the 6th generation
00:51descendant of Cujo Lewis, who is one
00:54of the last survivors of the Clotilda.
00:56And again, if you saw the film,
00:58you saw his many insights and
01:01poignant words and so I'm really
01:04excited to hear more from them today.
01:08And then last but not least is Vida Robbins,
01:11who is a native of Mobile, AL.
01:13She has lived here,
01:15lived in Alabama and mobile all her life.
01:18Her third great grandparents
01:20were Polly and Rose Allen.
01:22Professionally,
01:23she is an RN coordinator in case
01:27management at the University of
01:29South Alabama Health Systems.
01:31So welcome to you all.
01:34So my, my first sort of question or what
01:39I'd like the panelists to respond to
01:41is just to tell us a little bit about
01:44you and your connection to Africatown,
01:47the Clotilda and the film descendant
01:50and what really is the most important
01:53message that you would like folks to
01:56take from the the film and the story.
02:00And I'm going to start with Margaret,
02:02if you you could answer those.
02:04But also if you could just give us
02:06a little bit of the summary of the
02:09story of the Clotilda and Africatown.
02:17Sorry, I wanted to thank
02:20you all for having us.
02:21This is a privilege to speak with y'all.
02:22And I'm, I'm definitely looking forward
02:25to everyone's questions and thoughts.
02:27So I I kind of want to my involvement
02:31and and sort of to get into this
02:33story started about 16 years ago when
02:36I was working with Doctor Kern on
02:38another film called Order of Myths.
02:40And that film is about segregated
02:44Mardi Gras in Alabama.
02:46And it's the way I first heard
02:48about the Clotilda.
02:49My mother said to me when I
02:51was starting to make the film,
02:53you know, there,
02:54there there is a in mobile there's a
02:56white Mardi Gras queen and a black Mardi
02:58Gras queen and the White Mardi Gras
03:00Queen's family was the mayor family.
03:02She came from the mayor family,
03:04from whoever seen the movie.
03:05And my mother said to me,
03:07you know,
03:08on that family brought the last
03:09slave ship to the United States,
03:11which I didn't know.
03:13I didn't learn that growing up in
03:15school and didn't really know how
03:17important it would be to the film.
03:19Until Stephanie Lucas,
03:21the Black Mardi Gras queen,
03:23we were after Mardi Gras was already over.
03:25We were having,
03:27we were shooting around her
03:30grandparents dining room table and
03:32her grandfather said that he was
03:34a descendant from the Clotilda.
03:36And I looked at the cinematographer
03:38and he looked at me and we just
03:39sort of knew the whole film had
03:41just changed to be around the
03:42relationship between these two Queens.
03:46So that's kind of how my connection
03:47to the story started many years
03:49before we started making this film,
03:51which started five years ago.
03:53But I kind of want to kick the story.
03:57I feel like it's more appropriate
04:00for Emmett or for Vita to kind
04:02of tell that story.
04:08I don't see the start.
04:10You see me OK? I'll start.
04:14Good morning, everybody. Umm.
04:18This is a story that we just
04:21always known growing up.
04:23Always knew that we were descendants of
04:26the last on the Africans on the Clotilda.
04:29I met Margaret through Doctor Jackson also.
04:33While going to church and a family
04:35church and Union Baptist is a
04:37church that was founded by the
04:39by the Africans on the Clotilda.
04:42Going to church and Doctor Jackson would
04:44bring some of his class there and my
04:47mother did small tours in Africa town,
04:49so that's How I Met him and Margaret
04:52and how I became a part of this.
04:55It just happened organically so.
04:59My connection is I'm a third grade
05:01granddaughter of Holly and Rose Allen,
05:03who are two of the founders of Africa Town.
05:10In it.
05:13Good morning, everybody.
05:16I'll say for me, like like they said,
05:19if you've seen the movie or
05:21how I'm involved in it is.
05:23Through my father.
05:25Single generation Cudjoe, Lewis and.
05:29I I grew up here in the story every day.
05:32I was one of the kids that just.
05:34I grew up hearing the story and it
05:37wasn't more so of a slave story for
05:39me more than a a superhero story.
05:42Like though that that was my this
05:46story was my childhood superhero and.
05:50I mean I I could say that's that's
05:51my complete involvement in it.
05:53Just the fact of knowing from birth
05:55that I was seeking generation Cudjoe,
05:58Kazoola Lewis and just trying
06:00to carry that name.
06:08Do you want to add anything?
06:12Yeah, this, this, this business about
06:16Africatown and and the Clotilde is
06:18you know it includes the the Clotilde
06:21Africans but it also includes the fact that
06:24African Americans and in Mobile County who
06:26were living in Plateau magazine Point,
06:28Alabama were already there what
06:31we call the quarters living and
06:34supporting the industry and so.
06:37You know the the piece of art that Margaret
06:39sort of creates comes out of a confluence.
06:42So those people who are already in
06:44in Alabama and these folks that
06:46showed up towards the tail end pre,
06:48pre civil war and like Margaret
06:50was saying previously did a film
06:53called Order of Myths and it,
06:56it was in 2007,
06:572008 and it's such a perfect sort
07:00of representation of the American
07:01Gulf Coast and the study of festival
07:04and lo and behold this story.
07:07About the Clotilda has always been
07:09superimposed on the regular time
07:11period of Mardi Gras cause two sets of
07:14homecomings occur occur at the same time.
07:16And as a person who studies carnival,
07:19that's sort of how I got introduced
07:21to the story in in addition to having
07:23a a great aunt who's an informant who
07:25worked in the County School system
07:27there in Plateau magazine point,
07:29taking me to to Lewis quarters.
07:31So that's how I arrived at the narrative.
07:37And and who would like to say just
07:40more about the Clotilda and? Sort of.
07:45Go ahead, Margaret.
07:47Sure. So the story is in 1859
07:52the ship there was a bet and.
07:56One of the Timothy Mayer made a
07:58bet with some local businessman
08:00that he could smuggle slaves.
08:02Even though the slave trade was abolished,
08:04there was still slavery.
08:05And he made a bet that he could smuggle
08:09110 Africans into the United States.
08:12And he did he he did this.
08:15It was a crime punishable by death,
08:17but it was kind of one of those nudge,
08:19nudge, wink, wink things.
08:20It was still a fear that you could be
08:23caught by the federal authorities,
08:24but he bragged about it in the local paper.
08:28And when the ship got here,
08:29it was burned, and the effort,
08:31the enslaved Africans who were brought over
08:34had to hide in the swamp for two weeks,
08:36and then they dispersed to
08:41different plantations and.
08:44This some of them went up to Selma,
08:46some of them were still in Mobile County.
08:50And this film particularly focuses on the
08:53descendants that settled in Africa Town,
08:56which is Happy Hills Magazine,
08:58Point, Plateau,
08:59some of the names that we've sort of
09:01been throwing around colloquially.
09:06So my first question really
09:08goes to Emmett and Veda.
09:10It's really about the power of knowing
09:12who one is and and where you come from.
09:15So if you could talk about the
09:18importance of ones or yours,
09:20your connection to your ancestors.
09:27I love the way Emmett said that this
09:28is a story about not about slavery,
09:30but about a superhero story.
09:33Because when we grew up with this story,
09:37we were never taught that.
09:39Like somebody sat down and
09:40said this is this is it.
09:42You were on the Clotilda and remember this.
09:44You know, I was never taught like that.
09:46It's just a part of our story,
09:47just a part of my family history. But.
09:51I just think it's really important.
09:54I I feel privileged to know who I am,
09:57to know where my family came from.
09:59I don't know exactly whether it
10:01was from Nigeria or Ghana because
10:04you know we were captured by.
10:07The Dahomey warriors which?
10:10Kind of conflicts me when I watched
10:11the woman King because although
10:13I love the power of those women,
10:14it's like those women also were.
10:16They represent the women who
10:18probably captured my ancestors and
10:20are responsible for us being here.
10:22But I'm so privileged to know
10:25my link to Africa.
10:26And to know that my ancestors were
10:29so strong and so resourceful that
10:31they found that this community,
10:34they're still here today,
10:35but they had the foresight to
10:37continue to tell us who we are.
10:45Well, for me. Like like Beatles saying
10:51is is is good for you to know where you
10:54come from and you know who you are.
10:56Like for me, I never, I never had that
10:59that emptiness of not knowing who I was.
11:01Like I've always knew and.
11:04Like she's saying to go all the
11:06way back to knowing at least
11:08like you know you was the capio.
11:11I know that Cujo wasn't a cat captain.
11:14I knew that my whole life.
11:15I knew he was one of the people,
11:17that it was just one of the
11:19last few people they needed.
11:20They needed a few more.
11:22So after they had them sold out,
11:24sold out the captives,
11:25they went in and kidnapped Cudjoe
11:27and some other people. So.
11:29Just by me knowing that like it,
11:32it makes me feel empowered
11:33by knowing who I am.
11:35And like, in the words of my father,
11:38like I said,
11:38I talked to my father a lot because
11:41that's what this story is for me.
11:43Like I don't have my father no more.
11:45So this, this story is a reminder of,
11:48you know, me and my father every day.
11:50So for me it was like in
11:51the words of my father,
11:53if you don't know who you
11:54are or where you come from,
11:56then you'll never know where you going.
11:57So that's how I've always looked at it.
12:02And can you share any more about
12:05the superhero of Cujo Lewis well?
12:10It is some stories like first First off,
12:12my, my dad's my first superhero.
12:15My dad's always my first superhero.
12:17I still remember in first grade
12:19when they asked me they was like,
12:22what do you want to be when you grow up?
12:23I say my father and I drew
12:25a little picture of my dad.
12:26My dad was a Vietnam vet who was a POW.
12:30And that story of his own,
12:33you know, hell, wait for me.
12:34So when you hear him talk so great
12:36about another another person,
12:38like it was amazing. And.
12:41To me like I said I didn't get
12:43the privilege of seeing Cujo.
12:44I didn't get the privilege of of
12:46being around on my grandfather
12:47had the privilege of being raised
12:49by him for 14 years.
12:50So we we're a direct you know
12:53connection to Cujo and to hear
12:55how my my father talked about him
12:57and say and Cujo was a king Cujo.
13:00Cujo was destined to be a king
13:02but he was cut short of that.
13:04His life was cut short of that
13:05because he he was captured and
13:07brought here but then he said
13:09but he's always been a warrior.
13:12And.
13:12Like once I got older I heard people
13:14they say like you get so many
13:16mixed stories about it while you're
13:18growing up as a child your your,
13:20your mind is so immature to to
13:22be able to grasp all of that.
13:24So you hear certain people saying ohh man,
13:27they say Joe,
13:28they said could you cry every day?
13:30But there I go talk to my dad and he said,
13:33yeah,
13:33because you cried every day
13:35because he knew all of his kids,
13:37all of his people,
13:39everybody that made it and
13:41survived that ride here.
13:43There,
13:44their kids will never be able to see home,
13:46so he cried for home.
13:48It wasn't like he was just crying
13:49because he was stuck and captured.
13:51Like he was crying because he
13:53wanted all of his descendants
13:54to know where home was,
13:56but he knew there was no chance
13:58of it happening.
14:03Thank you for that. Karen,
14:06were you going to say something? Ohh
14:09no. I was just, I was just listening
14:12to Emmett and thinking about how
14:14the the power storytelling among
14:17the folks and in Africatown on just
14:19it helps redress a lot of racial
14:22inequity through collective memory
14:24and storytelling and the uncovering
14:26and reshaping of collective memory.
14:29And so I was just wanting to Amen.
14:33Well, that that was my next
14:35question actually for you.
14:37So what what are oral history
14:39and oral traditions and what,
14:42what are the origins of of them
14:45and what's the importance in
14:47terms of for Africa town of these
14:50opportunities and tradition, right,
14:52I can only explain it through
14:54through spending so much time with
14:57this particular group of folks.
14:59It's just a it's like verbalized
15:01and collective memory.
15:03And not everybody is like
15:05Emmitt or Vita or Joycelyn.
15:06Not everybody is identified
15:08by the Community Beavers,
15:10repositories of the story, right?
15:12They're getting it direct,
15:14one to one.
15:15And the rest of us are sort of
15:18living that we don't know our
15:21ancestors so we're living through
15:23the the the oral traditions that
15:25they were bestowed and I think
15:27it's it's just the the notion of.
15:35Having a relationship.
15:36And and and one of the things that
15:39that the story story has done is it
15:41has buoyed the the self esteem of the
15:44broader black population of mobile AL.
15:47So this notion of oral Ness,
15:49this notion of people coming home
15:51from Mardi Gras to Mobile County
15:53to Africatown to to meet and greet
15:55and for lack of a better term,
15:57run with the wolves of your own
15:59kind so that you can know who
16:01you are and whose you are.
16:03It's more than just storytelling, right?
16:06It's like storytelling on steroids, you know?
16:11And and so. And in the oral tradition,
16:14sort of contemplating.
16:15The ever present consequences of
16:18of things that happen to your foe.
16:20Right.
16:21And so that so that whatever you
16:23learn from it can be applied
16:26to your everyday life.
16:27And so that's sort of how I think about
16:29oral narrative and how it functions.
16:35So, Margaret and Kern,
16:37can you talk about the power of
16:40silence and intimidation in?
16:43Africa Town and probably
16:44so many other places,
16:46but as it played out in Africa Town.
16:55Sorry, I keep forgetting the mute button.
16:57I I you know just knowing that there
17:00is I mean Emmett talks about the
17:03superhero aspect of it and that's
17:05obviously indefinitely how I feel just
17:08that this this is the incredible story
17:11of resistance and the power of the
17:13oral narrative to like pass something
17:15down that was the whole you know,
17:17white power structure was trying to suppress.
17:21And yeah I mean it's it's.
17:25Yeah, it's, it's it's the last
17:28known lynching is in mobile,
17:30AL and Michael Donald and I
17:33believe it's 1984, right, Kern?
17:388686. And there is a very, you know,
17:45definitive power and mobile of,
17:47of the threat of violence.
17:48So, and this was a story that
17:51went counter to the narrative.
17:53I mean, when my mother told me the story,
17:56the way she said it,
17:58she obviously believed it was true.
18:00I knew when she told me that
18:02she believed it was true.
18:04But it wasn't something you didn't in,
18:06in, in, in, white, mobile.
18:08It wasn't something that was
18:10really spoken of was the sense I
18:13got from the way that she told me.
18:16And it wasn't something that was taught.
18:17I think now Joycelyn,
18:18who's not with us right now,
18:20but she always talks about how the
18:23story of of the Clotilda is in the
18:25history in the Alabama history book.
18:27But I don't remember any public
18:29school teacher spending any.
18:31I don't remember hearing about it.
18:32It wasn't something.
18:34That was even though it's it's definitely,
18:37you know historically one of the most
18:39important things to happen in Alabama,
18:41if not the definitive thing.
18:44It wasn't something that we studied.
18:46So it was something that was suppressed.
18:48It was something that was silenced
18:51and just the power of the words
18:53that were passed down and the
18:55fact that like Emmett and Beta
18:57and Joycelyn were chosen by their
19:00community to be the repositories,
19:02you know and to and to claim this narrative.
19:04And not have it be forgotten.
19:06I just saw such incredible power in
19:08that just like this, the sort of.
19:11Resilience of that.
19:16Yeah, I'd like.
19:17I'd like to sort of echo that.
19:18I mean, the intimidation comes from
19:20there are 119 people on this zoom.
19:23Right. And that's that's more folk
19:25than in mobile AL from Chamber of
19:27Commerce that's wanted to touch
19:29our narrative with a 10 foot pole
19:31mostly because they're trying to
19:33wait out the height so they can go
19:35back to putting tar sands underneath
19:37the the middle school playground.
19:41So that's a type that's intimidation
19:43to know that we will just wait
19:45you all out until to the attention
19:48falls to the wayside.
19:49The silence is is y'all are the
19:53ones who study trauma, right?
19:56Y'all are the ones who study.
19:58You know,
19:59how people sort of how it goes
20:02to people's core and they pass
20:04it on to their children.
20:06And one of the things about,
20:08about,
20:08about the silence on this is that
20:11we just get into 2024 when we could
20:13talk about redressing that and trying
20:15to be healthy about it, right?
20:18Trying not to get too high or get too low.
20:21All these Christian churches
20:23down here in the.
20:24Baptist, the Southern Baptist,
20:26the Episcopalians, the Catholics.
20:30The Muslim.
20:32The Jews.
20:34Incredibly silent.
20:39Right. These are our neighbors.
20:41Ain't heard from him.
20:44Affects their pocketbooks that they speak up.
20:48So I think they intimidated. You know,
20:51Joyce and Avita and and Emma's family,
20:54they have family reunion every year
20:55and they tell the the little children,
20:57they are silent at all.
20:59It's the neighbors who are silent,
21:01the people at my university who.
21:03Haven't wanted to sort of investigate
21:05the fact that my university is
21:07directly tied to the lumber industry.
21:10That caused the cancer contemporarily
21:14in Africatown. Scared.
21:18Because that capitalist system.
21:20Doesn't wanna be interrupt.
21:22We bring jobs,
21:23we're gonna sacrifice y'all with the cancer,
21:25but we bring jobs.
21:28And then, you know,
21:30like Anderson Flynn says in the movie,
21:32y'all seen the movie.
21:34You've heard Vida and Emmett's testimony.
21:36You know.
21:38All the folks at grand
21:39rounds gonna be silent.
21:41Are you gonna help global globally,
21:43help your neighbor.
21:44All the talent and brilliance
21:46y'all got up there.
21:47So,
21:48so when I think about silence
21:50and intimidation,
21:50it's it's sort of a fluid thing.
21:55I think to also go along with what
21:57Doctor Jackson just said, the.
22:01There is still internal intimidation.
22:03Like I was really reluctant to even
22:05identify the university that I work for.
22:07I work for the same university
22:09that Doctor Jackson does,
22:10and even reluctant with being in
22:12leadership at my university to connect
22:14this story to them for fear of not knowing
22:17what happens to me professionally.
22:19If they realize who I am,
22:22they might not realize who I am
22:24because the story is so disconnected.
22:26In different parts of mobile,
22:27there are people celebrating the film
22:29itself and celebrating the celebrity.
22:32But they're not celebrating the
22:33story and their connection to it.
22:39Well. Just go back to what
22:43Doctor Kern was saying, like.
22:48With the silence,
22:49I never felt the silence like.
22:51I tell a lot of people that I'm
22:55fortunate that I was born in 1990,
22:57so I didn't feel the hey,
23:00we can't talk about this.
23:02Everything that I got.
23:03Was this your story?
23:04Make sure you know. But.
23:08Like Margaret was saying
23:10with the history book thing.
23:13There was a picture of my grandfather.
23:15There was a picture of him
23:16in in the history book.
23:17When I came up,
23:18I knew it was an Alabama history book,
23:20but it's one of those seed, figure 3.
23:23And then you go down there and look at
23:25the little picture and they say Cudjoe,
23:28Kazoola Lewis,
23:28last slave off the slave ship in Alabama.
23:32That's it.
23:33That's, that's that's the whole
23:34story that I had on it. But.
23:37I never lived in the silence
23:40I always lived through.
23:42Tell them who you are.
23:43There's your family.
23:44Make sure they know.
23:45So I'm one of those headstrong people,
23:47like I know who I am,
23:49but in the same sense.
23:51It took me a while growing up
23:53to realize that it was a lot of
23:55people that knew their story.
23:56They couldn't talk about it for a long time.
23:59Right.
23:59And so it took me awhile to figure that out.
24:02But in the same,
24:03in the same sense of me figuring that out,
24:06I started to figure out everything
24:08that I thought was right.
24:09Like towards growing up, how he was living.
24:12I had to figure out that that was wrong.
24:14Like,
24:14I heard stories about everyone in our
24:16community that worked for the paper company,
24:19the paper mill.
24:20I've heard that.
24:20And all they do was, oh man, we may we,
24:24we used to work for the paper mill,
24:25but none of them are getting
24:27anything from it, no.
24:29Benefits, anything.
24:30Retirement,
24:30all they're getting none of that.
24:33But they're not even understanding
24:35that that was part of the
24:37thing that was killing us too,
24:38so.
24:39They confuse the people over here
24:41to make us feel like everything
24:43that was going on around us.
24:45For one, we can't talk about the story,
24:48but for two, we have to accept it.
24:51We'll give you a job,
24:53but just don't pay attention to us.
24:56When they smoke out and killing you.
24:57So that's that's that's that was the
25:00knowledge that I had to gain while
25:02growing up in the same environment
25:04that these people were living in
25:06like we were still living in the in the 90s.
25:09That's that was that was a tough you
25:12know wake up call for me and then to be.
25:15One of the people that,
25:16like I said,
25:17I was going,
25:17I we we go to school there for one.
25:19There's a whole pipeline running
25:20under the school now and it ain't
25:22nothing we can do about it.
25:23Pipeline, none of that.
25:24They say be quiet.
25:25But.
25:25I was actually in school when
25:27one of the chemical trains
25:29fell off the train.
25:31And they treated it like a fire drill,
25:34like they took us outside to the field.
25:36And as a child, you know,
25:38we just thinking, hey, we can go play
25:39with our friends and other classes,
25:41run around, grab a football, you know,
25:44until they tell us to go back in.
25:45But I had to think about it, man.
25:47We sat outside for an hour. Which?
25:51Maybe we should have been inside.
25:52That was a chemical train
25:54off the train like you.
25:55It'll take you to get older to
25:56actually realize what they did.
25:58And finally, an hour and a half later,
26:002 hours later, they say, oh,
26:02we called all y'all parents,
26:03so y'all go to the front of the
26:05school so they can pick you up like.
26:07Those are the things we was living
26:09with in the 90s and to me it
26:11kind of feel like those are the
26:12things that you should have been
26:14going through in the 60s and 70s.
26:15Like well,
26:16we should have been going through it,
26:17but that time era for what I live.
26:22You know,
26:22it seemed older than what what the
26:24time out we were going through.
26:31Thank you for that.
26:36Which which of the panelists would be
26:38able to just tell us a little bit more
26:41about Africa Town and how it came to be?
26:46OK, I'll, I'll try that one.
26:48So Africatown was built right there
26:51where the confluence of the trains met.
26:55Right before the trail yard or the rail yard.
26:58And it was also prior to that, it's where?
27:02The magazine for the Confederacy
27:04was was stored Africatown.
27:06Actually at one point in Time magazine
27:08point blew up during the Civil War because
27:10it was too many munitions there and they
27:12had a large like 17 block explosion.
27:14But anyway plateau is up above
27:18the River Mobile river.
27:20And it came to be because it's where
27:24the mills like turpentine lumber free
27:27assault it was where all these things
27:29were being sort of manufactured,
27:31processed and it was borne out
27:34of a community of Labor that was
27:36that was there as well.
27:38And so it's sort of the and and
27:40it the same people who live there
27:42then aren't necessarily the
27:43same people who live there now.
27:45It's never a one to one correlation
27:47because of migration patterns.
27:48But it had to do with where
27:51people were working.
27:52Right.
27:52And the fact that you had commissaries
27:55for those companies located in in
27:57that in that area and then eventually,
28:00you know like the first school
28:02M&amp;M's people and Vietnamese people
28:04who off the clotel,
28:06their descendants provided the
28:07land for the Black first Black High
28:09School which just happened to be in
28:11Africa Town in the state of Alabama.
28:13So all these sort of things came together,
28:17the notion of the LNN railroad
28:19and and the stockyard there,
28:21of the the train yard there and
28:23being in Central Park on the river.
28:26With these industries where they could
28:27bring the product in and get it out,
28:29it's it's sort of a reason why
28:31Africa Town came into existence.
28:37Was there a piece of purchasing
28:40land back from? The.
28:43Mayor family. What's that story?
28:51I can talk about that.
28:52Joycelyn actually reads part of that
28:55from Zora Neale Hurston's book.
28:57In the film, Cujo goes to Timothy Mayer
29:01and asked asked to go back to Africa.
29:05This is something that's in barracoon,
29:07and there's sections in the film where we.
29:11Where there's there's three from the
29:14descendants, Emmett has a reading,
29:17Joycelyn has a reading,
29:18and Timothy Mayer says,
29:22you know, I've done basically
29:23says I've done right by you,
29:25you can't go home and.
29:28So the descendants poles pull
29:30together their money and and
29:32buy some of the land back.
29:36I don't know. I'm sorry.
29:40I'll, I was going to say. From like with me,
29:44I I've read the books I thanks to Margaret,
29:48Margaret brung a lot of that to my life
29:51because I at one point in my life I didn't
29:53want to read anything because I felt like it
29:56would tarnish like what my family told me.
29:58But once I read this audio book.
30:03That book was like the closest thing
30:05to what my family had told me.
30:08And like one thing I do remember,
30:11like I like, I like I said, when I talk
30:13in the movie I talk about the graveyard.
30:14So most of the stories that I give you,
30:16those are coming from the graveyard
30:18at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, so.
30:21One thing I remember my dad saying,
30:23my dad said that we did buy it,
30:25but he said how it was was.
30:29Because I went to Mr. Mayor and say.
30:33That. He wanted to, he said,
30:36why can't you give us the land?
30:38And Mr. Mayor told him why?
30:40Why would I give you property
30:42on top of property,
30:43saying that you know the people free already,
30:45so why would I give you?
30:47Land and I already gave you all freedom now,
30:50so be happy like that was what I was told.
30:52And then I was told that.
30:55Because I went back to the people,
30:57told him what what it was,
30:59and they all agreed on working for it.
31:02So some of them even work from Mr.
31:05Mayor.
31:06They worked on Steamboat
31:07Railroad coming railroad tracks.
31:08Like those were stories that I heard.
31:10And they worked until they build
31:13up enough money as a whole,
31:15as a unit.
31:16Like everybody pitched in together
31:17and they bought this land.
31:27And it just reminds me of the importance
31:29probably in many communities,
31:30but in the African American community,
31:32importance of owning land and
31:35holding on to that and passing
31:38it down to family members.
31:40I don't know if anyone wants to.
31:42Touch on on that importance
31:44of land and ownership.
31:46Well, I can. I can tell you on that
31:48one again, because I'm I'm living
31:50through it now, just like I said.
31:53I was always told my whole life that,
31:55uh, you know, my people,
31:56you know, purchase this land.
31:58But hey, I don't have a piece of land here.
32:00I'm renting the house here.
32:00I've been reading the house since I got
32:02out of the Marine Corps and came back here.
32:04And it's not like, you know.
32:07I want to is just this is my community.
32:10That's all I know.
32:10So when I came from the Marine Corps,
32:12I came back home and it's it's
32:15just so much that's tied into the
32:17land out here and a lot of stuff
32:21that's going on with it that.
32:23It it would have been very important
32:26for us to be able to keep track of
32:28that and pass that down because we
32:30wouldn't be going through as much as
32:32we're going through now just trying
32:34to see what the land is or would
32:36belong to and how to get it back.
32:44And I don't have a piece
32:45of land in Africa town.
32:46Unfortunately, my family moved out,
32:48you know, my great grandmother in
32:51that generation moved out for what my
32:54mother just described as a better life.
32:57So it kind of speaks to what?
33:01It kind of speaks to what was happening
33:03in Africa Town to begin with that.
33:06You know, the industry surrounding
33:08Africa town and the conditions that
33:11people were living in just were
33:13not conducive to a better life.
33:15So unfortunately generations
33:16later like I don't have,
33:18I don't have a voice in Africa Town as
33:20far as having a piece of land either.
33:25Thank you for that.
33:27You're trying to make some money to
33:29get him at that Barber shop and get
33:32get beat at that space where they can
33:34run their their Realty company out of.
33:37So, you know, I mean let's be real
33:39if if there's someone on the zoom
33:41can help Emmett and Vito get that
33:44piece of land. Much obliged.
33:46Yeah, we're working on Land
33:48Trust issues for the community.
33:50I mean, it's a long, it's a long road,
33:53but that's definitely something.
33:55If you go to descendantfilm.com,
33:57which is an evolving site,
34:00it's this is something we're
34:01working on as a collective.
34:06So much. There are so many.
34:08So many issues out,
34:09just one more point about that.
34:11So many issues like and it said about
34:13the land that once you find the land
34:15you have to determine who owns it.
34:17And once you determine who owns it,
34:19you have to determine if you can acquire it.
34:21And even if you acquire it,
34:22what is it zoned as?
34:24So there are so many stipulations as to what
34:26can be done with the land that is there.
34:29It's just. Umm.
34:30It's it's really confusing,
34:33and like I've heard Margaret say before,
34:35it was probably intentional
34:36for it to be that confusing.
34:42Yeah, just one more little piece on
34:46that like it goes along with that
34:48other question that we were talking
34:50about too like towards the passing
34:51down of the land and all of that like.
34:54A lot of people have to understand that,
34:56like all the way. It took a while,
34:58but all the way to my generation,
35:01we was never, we was never
35:03taught to to honor this land.
35:05We was never taught to just hold on
35:07to this land. We was always taught,
35:09get out, get a better life.
35:12So in the process of them brainwashing
35:15us to not honor our land.
35:18We taught our kids.
35:19Don't don't care about what
35:21we got going on here.
35:22Just get out and get a better life.
35:24So by us doing that,
35:26so many generations,
35:27that's what caused the confusion on the land.
35:38Thank you. What is shift gears a little
35:41bit and just ask the beat or or any
35:43of the other panelists what's the
35:45power of the there was an unveiling
35:48of the illustration of the cold and
35:50just what what was that like for you?
35:56I can speak to that.
35:57That was documented in the film.
35:59I remember.
36:00I remember it so well that even. When?
36:08When that illustration was unveiled.
36:12I remember just being struck by the
36:17black bodies in the hold of that ship.
36:19I didn't see the beauty of the art.
36:21It didn't even matter.
36:24There there was.
36:28Fred, I can't remember his name
36:30in the in the film from National
36:32Geographic that was talking
36:33about how wonderful it was, but.
36:37It just shows you how detached
36:39from this story people are,
36:41because it is a story to people.
36:43But when I looked at that that
36:46illustration, all I could see was.
36:55Looks like she burns.
36:59Think she froze. Hopefully she'll
37:02she'll be able to. Usually.
37:07Anybody else can speak to that, Emmett?
37:10The oh, there she is. Come back. Great.
37:15OK, OK. Yeah. My Internet
37:17connection is unstable as it
37:19just told me. Can you hear me?
37:24Maybe not.
37:29Ohh, maybe she'll be able to rejoin Emmett.
37:31Were you gonna say something about?
37:34Your reaction response to the
37:38illustration. Come back, everybody.
37:42Awesome. We'll let you go
37:43and then we'll let Emmett go.
37:46OK, I'm sorry. I sure hate this
37:49up here in the in the country.
37:53I was just saying that when
37:55I saw that illustration,
37:56I don't know how much you missed,
37:58but when I saw that I was able to see.
38:02My grandparents that I know,
38:04like I saw grandma.
38:06Is that was my great grandmother.
38:08I could see her being in the hold
38:11of that ship and just imagine that
38:13these people would do that to.
38:15To our people just because
38:17we're black bodies?
38:18Just because we're black people.
38:20And it it just hurts so
38:22much because you can't.
38:23You can't even imagine your
38:25grandparents being treated like that.
38:31I would say for me,
38:33or I didn't go to unveil and I didn't.
38:38If you notice in the movie I didn't
38:40go to none of the things where they
38:42even found the ship, any of that.
38:44I got phone calls about it, but.
38:49I never really cared about it,
38:51I'll be honest. Like, I hate to say it.
38:54If I offend somebody, I'm sorry, but it is.
38:57It's just like,
38:58that's that's worshipping the gun like that.
39:01That really is you worshipping the
39:03murder weapon, like for me.
39:07It it was nothing concerning the ship.
39:09It was all about the people
39:10that was on that ship.
39:11So it's it's basically like.
39:15One of your grandparents getting killed
39:17and somebody finally figuring out,
39:19OK, he was stabbed and then everybody
39:22praised the knife.
39:23Now it's not about that knife,
39:25it's it's about my granddad. So.
39:27For me it was like I I never,
39:29I never cared about their self.
39:31Like I'm I'm happy.
39:32I know the name of it,
39:33but I don't care about it.
39:35Like my my people,
39:36we made it here and we still surviving.
39:38So that's the only story I care about.
39:40I don't care about how they were set up
39:42in the ship because I don't want that pain.
39:44I already feel it.
39:45I already feel that I and I know,
39:48I know from what my family told me.
39:52On the conditions of what
39:53my people went through.
39:54So what?
39:55What do I need somebody to
39:56paint a picture for me for?
39:58What do I need to go touch a piece
40:00piece of wood for the feeling
40:02like I'm I'm good with that?
40:06And Emmett and I feel the same
40:08way about that about the ship.
40:09Well, actually all of the descendants I
40:11heard from feel the same way about the ship.
40:13We use different words.
40:14I say and say it's about worshipping the gun.
40:17I say it's like the prison cell.
40:19Who wants to go visit the prison
40:20cell that we were kept in?
40:22So we don't care about
40:24the ship when you hear.
40:26I I feel like we just sort of tune out the
40:28people who are who are focused on the ship.
40:30We are all about the people who came
40:33here on the ship and who survived
40:35and that we are descended from.
40:37So you know,
40:38the Clotilda is just a part.
40:39It's just how you identify us
40:41in in the part of the country
40:43that we're in or whatever.
40:44But we don't care about the ship.
40:47And what's so interesting about the
40:49ship is the ship is what the state
40:51government has decided to focus on.
40:53Not on the people of Africa town
40:55that the state state representative
40:57has decided, for the most part,
41:00to focus on tourism in Africa Town.
41:02Not the conditions of the people,
41:04the children at that.
41:07It started.
41:10So.
41:12That's crazy, right?
41:14We want to rerun to bring the ship up.
41:16We want to bring the
41:17underwater archaeologist and
41:18wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We
41:20got to fail in school in the neighborhood.
41:23We we got ditches full of toxic
41:25materials in the neighborhood.
41:28Right. And so that's that's the great
41:31irony of of the of the body politic
41:34around part of this narrative.
41:37So relatedly, one of the reactions I had
41:41to the film that's also here in the chat,
41:43just the the idea of this,
41:45this is a great celebration and and
41:48you have proclamations and you have
41:50other things and so the question
41:52from Dan Shelter in the chat.
41:55Just your your reactions to that.
41:59This idea of a great celebration.
42:05That's a question for anybody.
42:06Anybody. Anybody. Ohh. OK.
42:08I hate to even be blunt about this.
42:11What we celebrating?
42:14By the time that everybody else hear the
42:16story and by time everybody think it's true,
42:18but what we celebrating the jobs not done.
42:22In the words of the great Kobe Bryant,
42:23I'm a big basketball fan,
42:25but y'all not done. Is not.
42:27This is just this is just now.
42:30Everybody else want to hear it like we.
42:33Me, I I know for a fact I've.
42:35I've been,
42:36I've been telling the story of my
42:37whole life in a way that I was given.
42:41Once all of this stuff started coming out, I,
42:44I, I don't see no reason to celebrate yet.
42:47They found catella, OK,
42:48I ain't celebrating.
42:49They they they repainted a picture.
42:51OK, I ain't celebrating.
42:53The only thing that I am proud about,
42:55and I'm proud to say that I was a part of it,
42:57was the film so that the world could see.
43:00There's nothing to celebrate yet.
43:03Ohh celebrate when I get ready to lay
43:05back in my casket and I understand that
43:07everything that I worked for forward
43:08towards Africa time is still here,
43:10still thriving and still trying to survive.
43:18I love immense bluntness to.
43:22I agree. It's not.
43:23There's nothing to celebrate right now.
43:25I'm glad that the film brought
43:26so much attention to Africa
43:28Town because we are using the
43:30light to get some things done,
43:32to shine the light on the
43:35silence and mobile and.
43:37You know, the silence makes them complicit.
43:40So I think the film is just really
43:42showing everybody that the our
43:44local government is complicit in
43:46the conditions in Africa Town.
43:51I've enjoyed listening to to Margaret
43:54talk about you know from from thinking
43:57about this film as art about the
44:00ship as artifact because Margaret
44:02captured Kamal Siddiqui talking
44:04about the power of the artifacts.
44:07What do you think, Margaret?
44:11I mean, I, I agree with what emman
44:13or navitor saying completely.
44:15The only thing I would say about the artifact
44:18is that it does like, Umm, you know,
44:21I knew at a certain point that Umm, you know,
44:25I didn't think they would find the ship.
44:27I really didn't. And I knew that,
44:30you know, when I met Emmett,
44:32when I met Vito and I met Joycelyn when
44:34I met Ram, there's like the people,
44:36the storytelling and the community of
44:38Africatown, I think in the South in general,
44:40but particularly in a place like Africa.
44:42Town, where the oral tradition
44:43is so powerful and so necessary.
44:46Like when you meet that many
44:48master storytellers,
44:49you're kind of in awe of what you meet.
44:51You're just.
44:52I remember sometimes the crew was
44:54just like what is even happening,
44:56like because you know,
44:57film crews work on a bunch of things.
44:59And then then you encounter this
45:02community where you everyone is,
45:04is so in control,
45:05creatively of of the power of their voices.
45:08It's astonishing.
45:09And I remember the crew at night
45:12when we were.
45:13Not shooting.
45:13Everyone was just in awe like that.
45:16We we could kind of tell we were
45:19capturing this living history that
45:20had been ignored and it was it,
45:22it really moved the crew in ways that,
45:24you know, I've been doing this a long time.
45:26Like usually the crews kind of just
45:28like there, but this time everyone,
45:30you know, if there was a new person.
45:32Like I remember one time we had a
45:35Steadicam operator and he wasn't
45:36going to set on time and the second,
45:39the assistant camera Person, Beau,
45:41who had been with us for a long time.
45:43Was so angry at him because he didn't
45:46understand the power of what we were doing.
45:48And he yelled at him before I even got
45:50to set that if he didn't show up, like.
45:53So it was like this,
45:54you know,
45:55we knew what what we were doing the
45:57in service of the story was something
45:59we had to get it right, you know.
46:02And I kind of got off what Karen asked me.
46:06Karen, what did you ask me again?
46:08Oh, the artifact.
46:09So when you know, when I heard come out.
46:12I don't know how many people on this.
46:13They have seen the film,
46:14but Kamal Siddiqui is an African-American
46:18underwater archaeologist and
46:19I remember hearing him speak.
46:22To to the community once and talking
46:25about the power of the artifact to
46:28bring attention to these stories.
46:30Because I don't know if without
46:32even though I agree completely
46:34with with Vida and Emmett,
46:37without you know this artifact I
46:38don't know if so much attention
46:40and I and I would have made the
46:43film anyway like I I knew this oral
46:45tradition was enough but I also
46:49knew that that you know there.
46:52The the the power of of having the
46:54artifact to draw attention to it.
46:57And also I think there's something about.
47:01Kamal wrote a poem when he was in the
47:03hold of the Clotilda and and it is a
47:06tricky thing because it's about pain,
47:08it's about trauma. And I don't, I don't.
47:11I I think it's different for every person.
47:13But I think if we are empathetic people.
47:18You know and we can be open
47:21to to those feelings.
47:23There is power in remembering trauma and and
47:27I think to speak about this to this group,
47:30I think I I'd be curious what you guys think.
47:34But I do think as a as a white woman
47:37from the South there is something to
47:39me in in opening yourself up to the
47:43fullness of history and all its pain.
47:48Where I I do think there there
47:49is value in the artifact,
47:51but I am willing to talk about
47:53this in any way.
47:54And, you know,
47:55I I think it's there's a lot there.
47:58Can I say one more thing about the artifacts?
48:00I agree with Margaret that the
48:03artifact is important because.
48:05A part of this story is that they
48:08denied that this ever happened.
48:11They treated this story like
48:12it was a local myth or that,
48:15you know, all these people were
48:16lying about this fabled Clotilda.
48:18It never happened.
48:19White Mobile knew about it.
48:21The people in Timothy Mayer circle
48:23knew about it, but they tried.
48:26They it's like there's no crime
48:29if you can't find the ship.
48:31So the ship being found
48:32proved that it was true,
48:34so now they they have to account for it.
48:38So that's why it's important it proved
48:39to a lot of people like they ask us,
48:41are we excited about.
48:42That they found the ship and we're like.
48:45We told you it was there all along.
48:47I mean, we we.
48:48That's why we're even talking about it,
48:49is because we told you it existed.
48:51So why are we excited?
48:52Like now?
48:53OK, if you needed to hear it
48:55and you needed to see it then.
48:56Now you got it.
48:57So what are you going to do now?
49:00Yeah, that's that was the point.
49:02I was going to speak on the
49:04you always take my points,
49:05but that's that's what I was going to say.
49:08Like for us it's not it's not that we're
49:11saying why we don't care about the ship,
49:13brush it off is that we're saying the ship
49:15is important for the rest of the world.
49:18Is is not important for us
49:20because we already know.
49:21We already knew this **** was
49:23important for the rest of the
49:24world and it was important for
49:26their spark to make people listen.
49:28But it it was nothing.
49:30Like it was a celebration amongst us.
49:33Like we we were like, OK, hey,
49:35I heard they finally found it.
49:37Like all right.
49:38Like, that's what it was was.
49:41Doctor Cindy and that's that's what
49:43we were talking about in another
49:45conversation and that you know
49:46that's why I love the people I'm
49:48on here this this panel with right.
49:49I love these folks right because you
49:51asked me what is oral history or
49:54what is folklore whatever it's like
49:55illuminating these folks story and
49:57they own context they had the power
50:00they're sharing the contact with us.
50:02I mean this film and and this is a
50:04credit to Margaret and this film is
50:06a piece of art was purely Democratic
50:08small D Margaret was shoot something
50:10I would ask some questions.
50:11Maybe and and then she would show it to
50:13Vita and she would show it to him and say,
50:15is this right?
50:16Right and and that's some of that's
50:18some of the love that you see come
50:20off the screen and and the cinema
50:22verite and it's you know it's through
50:25these folks own creation through the
50:26through the narratives that that
50:28they appreciated in the context
50:30and the meaningful expressions that
50:32their people share that they they've
50:34been able to share with us which I
50:37think sort of it blunts that damn
50:39trauma of the whole.
50:41You know,
50:41Flashpoint where this stuff jumped off.
50:45And see where we are with that just
50:48a pigtail off you are, Doctor Kerr.
50:50Like with that I I want to
50:52give Margaret her flowers now
50:54because I know I always tell you.
50:57I appreciate you, Mario, but.
50:59The more that I look into this,
51:00this film, and the more I look into
51:02everything that we are doing, I'm.
51:04I'm starting to understand you actually
51:07did what Missouria did in her book on film.
51:10Like that's what I say.
51:13Was very unique about Africa Town
51:15too is you can talk to 50 or 60
51:18people over here and you're going
51:20to get 50 or 5050 or 60 different,
51:23you know, story about their family
51:25coming up through Africa town and
51:27the trauma that they dealt with
51:29like you're going to get there.
51:31So many different stories that tie
51:33back into that one trip on that ship.
51:36Like it's so many different stories
51:38that tie into it and at the same time
51:41like I was saying about Margaret was.
51:44When I read lawyer Neil Hudson
51:46Hershey's book.
51:48She tried to get as close to what
51:51Cudjo was was as possible and.
51:55I remember at times while filming.
51:59I know I I didn't feel like I was on camera.
52:01I felt like I was sitting there
52:03just talking to Morgan as a friend,
52:04just telling her what was going
52:06on or who my people was.
52:08And once the film came and she,
52:11you know,
52:12showed it to the first thing I said to her,
52:14I said I'm so happy that it was no changes.
52:17Like everything that we said,
52:20she put in that film as best as she could.
52:24She she didn't.
52:25And another thing,
52:26like I said,
52:27it's not like she came to you and
52:30asked the question and gave once
52:32you get your answer, she was like,
52:33can you see it like this?
52:35Or could you put it this way?
52:37It was just like, no, hey,
52:38I'm going to turn this camera on
52:40and I just want you to talk to me.
52:42So it was in the similar fashion of
52:45what I I felt happy with Cujo and Nazario.
52:49So that's why I said to capture that and
52:52put it on film that way where you see.
52:55Over a period of time,
52:56you even see the different emotions
52:58coming from us,
52:59like from the beginning of the
53:00movie to the end.
53:02So that's that's why I said that's
53:04what make that that is one thing
53:06about this story that make it
53:07unique is that you actually still
53:09getting people that's giving you
53:11the wrong side of their feelings.
53:16So I'm going to take Margaret up and
53:18open it up for discussion and dialogue
53:20about anything that you have heard.
53:23We only have about 10-11 minutes,
53:25but at some point just what do
53:27you all want for Africa Town?
53:29Now think about that and I'm going to
53:32open it up for questions and comments.
53:35Again. You can put it in the
53:38chat or you can send it to the
53:40anonymous link Latasha and Trish,
53:43if you could help me.
53:46Um, see if their hands raised just because
53:48I can't see all of the screens here.