Yale Psychiatry Grand Rounds: November 5, 2021

November 05, 2021

Information

Poynter Fellowship: "The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain"

Annie Murphy Paul, MS, Author, Science Writer

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00:00I think I'm ready think. Oh
00:03OK, everybody saw that UM so thanks.
00:07Thanks John, and thank you
00:08all for coming today. Up to
00:1080 people and today's
00:14yet another in series of pointer,
00:17fellowship and journalism sponsored grand
00:21rounds in this has been able to fund us
00:25for this and several other presentations
00:27throughout the years and always a
00:29wonderful opportunity to hear from us,
00:31from journalists and people.
00:33For writing, I said.
00:34I would not want to thank them.
00:35I also want to thank the CMHC
00:37Foundation for their support.
00:38For the grand rounds today,
00:40and I want a special shout
00:42out to Kyle Peterson.
00:44Not only is the director of the foundation,
00:47but it just would tell you that every year
00:50Kyle introduces me and you to some of
00:53the most interesting voices in journalism.
00:56It's an extraordinary opportunity for me,
00:59and Kyle is so thoughtful in his
01:02selections and reaching out to people.
01:05So today I have the distinct
01:07pleasure to introduce you to.
01:09Any pollmer any Murphy paw?
01:12She's an acclaimed science writer whose work
01:14has appeared in New York Times magazine,
01:16Scientific American,
01:16and the best American Science writing
01:19among many other publications.
01:21Her latest book is the Extended Mind,
01:24the power of thinking outside the brain.
01:26So this was published in June of 2021,
01:29and it's already been selected
01:31as Amazon editors pick for Best
01:33nonfiction and as an editor's choice
01:35by the New York Times Book Review.
01:37She's also the author of Origins,
01:39named by the New York Times
01:40Book Review as a notable book.
01:42And the cult of personality,
01:44hailed by Malcolm Gladwell in The New Yorker,
01:46is a fascinating new book.
01:48Her Ted talk has been viewed by
01:50more than two more than 2.6 million
01:52times at this point.
01:54And she's the recipient of the Rosalyn
01:56Carter Mental Health Journalism Fellowship.
01:58The Spencer Education Journalism
02:00Fellowship and the Bernard L
02:02Schwartz Fellowship at New America.
02:05She graduated a graduate from Yale
02:07University and the Columbia University
02:09Graduate School of Journalism,
02:11and she's currently Learning Sciences
02:13exchange fellow at New America.
02:16So I I like you all,
02:18join me in welcoming her and Kyle will
02:22also be participating in this grand rounds.
02:25So thank you and over to Annie Murphy Paul.
02:28Thank you Mike.
02:29Hearing those introductions is always
02:31like this is your life, you know,
02:33kind of like your life passing before you.
02:35But thanks so much for that introduction.
02:38Thanks for inviting me to
02:39speak at grand Rounds.
02:40I've certainly never done anything
02:42like this before and I wanted to
02:44start off by saying that I don't
02:46want this to be a lecture where
02:48I'm just talking at you guys.
02:49I love a conversation and a back and forth,
02:51so I encourage everyone who's here to
02:54post questions in the chat and I'll.
02:56I'll pause and look over there
02:57and hopefully come.
02:58Mike and Tricia and Chris and Kyle
03:01and others can help me locate
03:03questions when they come up.
03:04I do want to thank Kyle for bringing
03:07me into this this amazing forum.
03:09Kyle and I know each other
03:11because we're baseball, parents,
03:13fellow baseball parents.
03:15So just goes to show you these.
03:18New Haven connections really can be
03:21very fruitful and many directions,
03:24so let's see where to start.
03:26I mean,
03:27I thought maybe I'd tell you a little
03:29bit of a little bit of background
03:30about me that helps can help you
03:32understand how I came to write this book.
03:34The extended mind I went to
03:37Yale as an undergraduate.
03:38I was dumb.
03:39Planning to be an English major
03:41until I was felled by the Fairy Queen.
03:44You know that long,
03:46dense poem by Spencer that just
03:49was not like the novels that I that
03:50I loved as a high school student.
03:52When I was planning on being
03:53an English major.
03:54So I ended up being an
03:56American studies major,
03:57which is a major I didn't even know
03:59existed when I got to college,
04:00and I found it because,
04:02you know, back in those days,
04:04there was a hard copy course catalog
04:07that was became dog eared with use.
04:11And highlighted and you know post it
04:13noted and all the most interesting
04:15classes that I located where it
04:17happened to be in American studies.
04:19So American studies doesn't
04:21prepare you to do much in life,
04:23but it what did turn out to be a good
04:26preparation for being a journalist in
04:28that it was an interdisciplinary major.
04:32And certainly what I do as a
04:35journalist involves a lot of pulling
04:37thread strands from different
04:39areas and weaving them together.
04:40And I started to.
04:41Learn how to do that as an American
04:44studies major as a Yale undergraduate.
04:47So I graduated,
04:48my first job was at Yale's Alumni magazine,
04:52where I got to interview and
04:55write about a lot of yells,
04:58researchers and professors,
05:00and that's when I began to realize that.
05:04This is the kind of journalism
05:06that I love to do.
05:07You know,
05:07I think I I at least had the impression
05:09that a journalist is someone who goes
05:11up to people on the street and says,
05:14what do you think about,
05:15you know yesterday's election or whatever,
05:18and I was never comfortable
05:19with that kind of journalism.
05:21I wanted to write about big ideas.
05:24I wanted to write about research.
05:25I wanted to interview people
05:28who had listed phone numbers.
05:30You know, it's a very different kind of.
05:35Journalism then say the more
05:37adverse aerial journalism that
05:39happens in the political realm.
05:41I actually see my work with scientists
05:44interviewing an writing about the work of
05:47scientists as more like a collaboration.
05:49It's it's really important for me
05:51to get their input and their help,
05:55and making sure that I get the
05:56details right about their research.
05:58They they are the experts.
05:59I'm the person who's translating that
06:02research for a for a broader audience.
06:06So after two years at the Alumni magazine,
06:09I moved on to New York City,
06:11where I was an editor,
06:12writer and editor at Psychology
06:14Today magazine,
06:15and that's when I sort of further refined my
06:19interests and my my beat as a journalist.
06:22I realized that I really liked
06:24writing about research,
06:25but specifically social science
06:27research and I just find people
06:30endlessly interesting human behavior,
06:32endlessly interesting,
06:33and I'm sure those of you who have
06:35chosen to go into psychiatry can.
06:37Can understand that, UM.
06:39So after two years at Psychology Today I
06:42went freelance and I've been freelance
06:45for the last 20 something years.
06:48I don't even really want to think
06:49about how long it's been, but, uh,
06:50I've been on my own in the sense
06:53that I've been out here,
06:55writing magazine articles and writing books.
06:59Those were really my only two jobs.
07:02Uhm, and my first book was.
07:07About it was a cultural critique and signed.
07:10It was a sorry, a scientific critique
07:13and cultural history of personality testing,
07:16which I became fascinated by this idea.
07:20That test certainly tests have shaped my
07:24own academic life and and professional life,
07:28but at that a test could sum up a person's
07:33character or or describe their personality.
07:36I was skeptical of that idea.
07:38And persuaded of the eventually
07:40through my research,
07:41persuaded of the idea that actually
07:44those tests were capturing more about
07:47the inventors of the tests and of the
07:49time and the era in which they lived.
07:52And then my next book was called Origins.
07:55It was about the science of
07:57prenatal influences.
07:58And you know,
07:59I'd like to say that or journalists
08:01generally like to offer,
08:02will often acknowledge that all
08:04research is is me search, you know,
08:06and this in the case of origins,
08:08that was especially true.
08:09I was pregnant with my second
08:12child when I was researching and
08:14researching and writing origins
08:16and so you know that the research
08:18for that book often found me,
08:20you know,
08:21eight months pregnant like heading
08:23into a lab to talk to a scientist
08:25about the science of fetal origins,
08:27the idea that what of pregnant
08:29woman feels and eats and experiences
08:32while she's pregnant has an effect
08:34on the fetus and potentially
08:37potentially lasting into that.
08:40Childs life.
08:41That dumb,
08:42you know,
08:42those those seem like two very
08:44different topics and they are,
08:46but to me they're all kinds of,
08:48they're all. They all kinds.
08:49They both kind of all my work
08:51orbits around the same question,
08:53which is what makes us the way we are and
08:56what makes us the way we are. And then,
08:58more recently I've become interested
09:00in the question of how do we change?
09:02How do we move on from what we are?
09:06But the personality testing book I think came
09:09out of an interest in how society shapes.
09:12Yes, or how society tells us who we are
09:14and what we do with that information.
09:16The the origins.
09:18The book about prenatal influences emerged
09:20out of an interest in this nurture nature.
09:23Question this,
09:24you know eternal debate between nature
09:27and nurture and my sense that in our
09:31discussions about nature and nurture
09:33there was this nine month gap that
09:35we weren't necessarily looking at.
09:37We were, you know,
09:38concerned with that moment of conception
09:40when the DNA blueprint gets laid down.
09:43And then we were concerned with nurture
09:45as it begins at the moment of birth.
09:48But there was this very consequential
09:50time in between that I thought could
09:53have something interesting and fresh and
09:55new to say about that nurture nature.
09:58Question what makes us who we are.
10:00So then continuing this sort of me
10:04search theme those those children that
10:07I bore when I was writing origins.
10:11They grew up, they started school.
10:13And I became very interested in
10:15the science of learning.
10:16I was very interested in.
10:18What my children were learning,
10:20how they were learning how their
10:22teachers were teaching them and
10:24at the same time as a journalist.
10:26I saw that there was a really
10:29dynamic and exciting body of growing
10:31body of research about learning
10:33the science of of how we learn,
10:35mostly psychology and cognitive science.
10:38And so I started writing about that,
10:40writing lots of articles and planned to
10:43write a book about it that didn't work out.
10:47I may yet write a book about
10:48the science of learning,
10:49but my struggle there was that I,
10:53as I said, I really loved.
10:55I love a big idea.
10:56I love a big a big idea that can
10:59transform the way we see something.
11:01And I searched and searched for a
11:04big idea that could kind of unite
11:06all the findings that I was all the
11:08very interesting and useful findings
11:10that I was gathering from the science
11:13of learning and eventually I had
11:15to kind of concede defeat that.
11:18There wasn't a unified theory of learning.
11:20I'd be interested.
11:21Interested to hear what and if you
11:23have to say about this or what
11:24you think about this,
11:25especially those of you who are really
11:28involved in educating and education.
11:32There is no unified theory of learning.
11:34I came to think because the brain
11:37is this klugey patched together.
11:39You know, cobbled together patchwork.
11:43That evolved to help us survive,
11:46but that did not in any way come.
11:50It was not designed, you know,
11:52in in any coherent way that
11:55could be described in terms
11:57of a a big idea. That's that.
12:00That was my conclusion in any case,
12:03so, but in the course of doing all
12:06this research and reading that got
12:08sort of progressively wider in its
12:10scope while trying to write this
12:12book on the science of learning,
12:13I came across an article in a philosophy
12:17journal that was published in 1998.
12:20As by the philosophers Andy
12:22Clark and David Chalmers,
12:24it was titled the Extended Mind and
12:27the Very first line of it said,
12:29where does the mind stop and
12:32the rest of the world began?
12:35And I found this to be a very uhm.
12:38You know an arresting question,
12:39a provocative question.
12:40Because partly because the answer seems to,
12:43it seems so obvious initially,
12:45so obvious that the mind stops at the skull.
12:49The mind is contiguous with the brain,
12:52but Clark and Chalmers were arguing that no,
12:54that's not the case.
12:56The mind extends beyond the brain to
12:59the rest of our body below the neck,
13:01to our physical environment,
13:03to our relationships with other people.
13:07And in particular,
13:08the focus of their article was on
13:10how we use tools to extend our
13:12minds and the the the principal
13:15tool that they were writing about.
13:17And remember this is in 1998 before
13:19smartphones became a part of our lives.
13:22They were talking about a notebook
13:24like a regular old fashioned
13:26notebook and how when we when?
13:29If it's such a notebook becomes a
13:32reliable part of our our thinking
13:35processes is coupled in a consistent way.
13:37With our with our thinking processes,
13:39it actually becomes a part
13:41of that cognitive loop,
13:42and there's no reason to call that notebook
13:46not part of your not part of your mind.
13:48It actually,
13:49it does constitute a part of your mind
13:51in a part of your thinking process.
13:53And interestingly,
13:54this article,
13:55which subsequently became one of the most
13:58cited articles in the philosophy literature,
14:01was rejected from three journals
14:03before it was finally accepted and
14:05published in the journal Analysis.
14:08And when it was published,
14:09it it really occasioned a lot of division,
14:12and a lot of, UM,
14:13mocking,
14:14sort of ridicule and skepticism from from
14:17philosophers from other philosophers.
14:20UM, who just thought this idea was,
14:22was really wacky,
14:24and what's interesting is that
14:26events kind of overtook the
14:28the reception of this paper,
14:30in the sense that in 2007 the
14:34Apple introduced the iPhone and
14:36and all of a sudden.
14:38Lots of us were offloading or extending
14:41our minds by offloading mental functions
14:45that had previously been performed
14:48by our brains onto our phones.
14:50You know,
14:50like who remembers phone numbers anymore?
14:52Because our phones remember them for
14:55us and so the use of the smartphone,
14:58which is nothing if not a reliable
15:01and consistent present in our
15:03presence in our lives,
15:04became this sort of continual
15:07proof of concept, you know.
15:09And and every day and every day life
15:11demonstrating how the mind is extended and
15:15one of David Chalmers is colleagues at NYU,
15:19another philosopher named Ned Block
15:21likes to say that the the thesis of
15:24the extended mind, the extended mind
15:26thesis was false when it was written,
15:28but subsequent subsequently became true
15:31because of the way that technology has
15:34begun to extend our minds in our in
15:37our everyday lives in ways that we.
15:39Can readily see I,
15:41I myself and more interest less
15:43interested in the way that tools
15:46and technology can extend our mind,
15:48although I think that's
15:49very interesting as well.
15:50I'm more interested in the way that
15:53our bodies extend our minds through
15:56things like our internal sensations,
15:58our movements or gestures.
16:01The way that our physical
16:04surroundings extend our minds,
16:06meaning nature,
16:07natural settings,
16:08but also built settings and are the
16:11places where we learn and work and
16:13also what I call the space of ideas,
16:16which is when we do offload our meant
16:19the contents of our minds onto physical
16:21space and interact with them in new ways.
16:24That's another way of
16:26extending the mind with space,
16:28and then finally the way that we
16:29extend our minds with other people.
16:31With our peers with experts that
16:34we learn from and and in groups so.
16:38B.
16:39When I read the the this article
16:41on the extended mind,
16:44it really it was a kind of Eureka
16:47moment because I had been collecting
16:52and and gathering instances of research
16:55in the science of learning with the
16:58idea of writing a book about the
17:01science of learning that fell into
17:03into into three kind of buckets.
17:05And I I felt that these buckets were
17:08related in some way, but it was.
17:10It was hard for me to put my finger
17:12on how they were related.
17:14The three buckets that I'm talking
17:17about are embodied cognition.
17:18This this this body of work that
17:21suggests that our bodies are an
17:23integral part of the thinking process.
17:25Situated cognition.
17:26The idea that where we are really
17:29affects the way we think and
17:32distributed cognition,
17:33socially distributed cognition,
17:34this the idea that we don't just
17:36think with our own individual minds,
17:39but we we think with.
17:41Other people,
17:41often in a kind of group mind or
17:45or collective intelligence.
17:47So it was really the discovery of
17:50this article about the extended mind
17:53that allowed me to pull together
17:56those disparate threads and weave
17:59them into a book that I wanted to bring.
18:03This exciting idea.
18:05I really find the idea of the
18:07extended mind really generative and
18:09really endlessly fascinating, and.
18:12And uhm, fertile as an idea,
18:14but I also really wanted to
18:17operationalize it in the sense of OK,
18:20if if these outside the brain
18:22resources really do influence how
18:24we think and are actually a part
18:26of the thinking process.
18:28What does that mean in our
18:30everyday lives for education?
18:31For the workplace, for you know,
18:34daily our daily lives.
18:37Wanted to take this idea out
18:40of the ivory tower
18:42and kind of really show how it.
18:44Uh, not only how it's operating in our lives
18:47now because we all do extend our minds.
18:50This is our our brains kind of evolved
18:53to take advantage of all these all
18:56these extra neural resources and and.
19:01But also how how we could
19:03potentially do that better?
19:04How we could be more skilled and
19:07more intentional in the way that
19:09we use extra neural resources?
19:11And finally, I also wanted this book
19:13to be a social critique, you know,
19:16and a critique of of the very common
19:18and pervasive ideas about the brain and
19:21about thinking that are out there that
19:24you know what Andy Clark, one of the Co Co.
19:27Authors of the the the extended
19:30mind paper calls.
19:31The brain bound mentality.
19:33In other words,
19:34this idea that thinking only goes on up here.
19:37And when you think about it,
19:38so many of our institutions and our practices
19:42are rooted in this brain bound idea.
19:45That thinking is contained within
19:47the skull that we can evaluate
19:51and rank people based on how
19:53big the lump of intelligence is.
19:55That's inside there inside their
19:58heads and that really that there's
20:01really a kind of blind spot.
20:03For all the ways that the raw
20:05materials of thinking you know
20:07our ability to move our bodies,
20:08the freedom we have to move our bodies,
20:10the access we have to natural spaces
20:13or two well designed interiors or
20:16two networks of peers and mentors
20:19and teachers who can help us.
20:22All those things are actually a part
20:24of our thinking processes and we
20:26have a blind spot to those when we
20:28insist on this brain bound model that,
20:30like all that matters is is.
20:33It goes on up here in the head,
20:35so the book came out in in June this
20:39past June and I've been very gratified by.
20:43The reception and surprised by it
20:45in some ways lots of teachers have
20:48really enthusiastically embraced it.
20:49Lots of people in the arts have embraced it,
20:52which when I think about it,
20:54shouldn't surprise me because I
20:56think people in the arts have always
20:58thought with their bodies and with
21:01come with physical spaces and and
21:03in collaboration with other people
21:05and lots of people.
21:07Lots of readers have told me that that
21:09they had found their way to these techniques.
21:12And these insights that I wrote
21:14about in the book,
21:16but that they were very glad
21:18to have the scientific backing,
21:20that that their intuitions or
21:22their trial and error experiments,
21:24had steered them in the right direction,
21:26and that they felt seen by this book
21:29in a way that they had not before,
21:31that they that they used their
21:33extended minds in their everyday lives.
21:35And now they had a better understanding
21:37of what they were already doing,
21:38which was, you know, as an author.
21:41You kind of never know.
21:43Uh,
21:43what kind of reception your book is
21:45going to get until it's out there
21:46and so that was a
21:48very that was a surprising and
21:49gratifying kind of feedback to get up,
21:51so I'll just pause here for a moment and
21:54I'll look to see if there's any questions,
21:57then Kyle if you have any.
21:59I know you Kyle was an early reader
22:01of my book and I I really have
22:04appreciated his enthusiasm and I know
22:06we have lots of overlapping interests,
22:09so perhaps Kyle has has a
22:10question or a thought.
22:13Thank you Andy.
22:14Thank you so much for being
22:15here today and for sharing.
22:16You are your work with us,
22:18particularly this book,
22:19but also how you introduced yourself
22:22and how you came to come through
22:24the work on the extended mind.
22:26I have a question when you know
22:28you mentioned UM the iPhone
22:30coming around and sort of being
22:32a proof of concept for that that
22:34question about the extended mind.
22:36I know that you started this
22:38book before the pandemic.
22:39Yeah, and then the pandemic came yeah,
22:42and I'm wondering what you see in
22:45the pandemic that illuminates or
22:48helps you understand this work on
22:51the extended mind and and what, UM,
22:54what applications you might be able to share.
22:59Yeah, that's such an interesting question.
23:00Call it the the pandemic was.
23:03Uhm, happening.
23:04Just as I was finishing up the book and
23:06I really had a question as to you know,
23:08do I include even a reference to
23:11the pandemic in the book?
23:12Because so little was known at that
23:14point and everything was changing.
23:16So in the end, in the end II really I didn't.
23:18But I do think that the the
23:22book coming out when it did.
23:25The time I thought it was the
23:26tail end of the pandemic.
23:27You remember those brief,
23:28glorious moments in the summer
23:30when we all thought that it was.
23:31It was in in retreat,
23:33but that wasn't to be so,
23:36but certainly by that point
23:37in in June when it came out,
23:40we'd been through more than
23:41a year of of the pandemic,
23:44and I really did feel that the pandemic,
23:48oddly enough,
23:49was almost like this vast
23:52natural experiment that exposed.
23:55In many ways,
23:56the importance of the extended
23:58mind precisely because it cut off.
24:00So for so many of us it cut off from us.
24:05The habitual use of our of our,
24:07the mental extensions that
24:09usually help us think in everyday
24:12pre pandemic life for example.
24:14I mean the most most obvious example is
24:17that all of the sudden many of our students,
24:20many of our children were not
24:22interacting with their classmates
24:23and teachers in person.
24:24Many of us were no longer
24:26interacting with their colleagues.
24:27At work or even even with friends
24:29or others outside our household,
24:31and I think we really felt the
24:33the contraction you know of
24:35of not having that in person.
24:37Interaction with other people and
24:39the way that we can share mine space
24:41with other people when we're having
24:43that face to face conversation,
24:45although of course we all did our
24:47best with with zoom and these
24:49these other platforms.
24:50But there are other examples too,
24:52like there was a professor who said to
24:54me that he was no longer able to access.
24:57His on campus office because
24:58all during the pandemic,
25:00all of that had been shut down and
25:02he realized that he had an office
25:05full of books that were arranged in
25:07on shelves around him in a specific
25:09order and that he actually had
25:11become used to using the visual
25:13cues of the books around him to
25:16shape his thinking or structure.
25:18His thinking,
25:18and he felt sort of bereft, you know,
25:21being cut off from this physical setting of,
25:25you know,
25:26there was some sense in which.
25:27His mind was outside his his skull and
25:30and and on his raid on his shelves and
25:33he was no longer having access to that.
25:36So,
25:36you know,
25:37philosophers have long played around
25:39with this sort of thought experiment of
25:41like what if we're all just brains in vats,
25:44you know,
25:45like the the movie The matrix?
25:47Kind of, you know,
25:48plays with this idea as well.
25:49And I actually have the
25:51I have the feeling that
25:52come during the pandemic.
25:54We all kind of were brains in vats.
25:56You know? We were brains in front of.
25:57Greens, lots of us were not moving around
26:01as much as we used as we would normally.
26:04We weren't commuting.
26:05We weren't traveling.
26:06We weren't visiting, stimulating new places,
26:09we weren't seeing people in person.
26:11Some of us may have been
26:13getting out into nature more.
26:14I think that was one upside of the pandemic,
26:16but uhm. You know one of the, UM?
26:21One of the points that I return to again and
26:24again in the book is the metaphors we use
26:27to understand the brain and and thinking,
26:30and how, how profoundly those metaphors
26:32affect the way we we think about thinking.
26:36And one of those metaphors very common
26:39and pervasive metaphor is the brain.
26:42As computer, you know.
26:43And it always strikes me as interesting
26:45that human beings in the middle of
26:47the last century created computers.
26:49And then we kind of analogize
26:51ourselves to them.
26:52And compared ourselves to them in some ways,
26:54we created computers to be a kind of
26:58idealized version of the human brain.
26:59You know,
27:00a brain that we could give commands to
27:02that would execute those commands that
27:05would not be embroiled in all this messy
27:08stuff of emotions and and and the body.
27:11And that's interestingly, I think the.
27:17B.
27:19Miss the the misconceptions are Aurum.
27:24You know faulty beliefs behind that
27:26idea are becoming more and more
27:29evident in in the failures or the the
27:32deficits of artificial intelligence.
27:34It turns out that we can create
27:37computers that play chess.
27:38You know better than than
27:40the world's grandmasters.
27:41But it turns out to be really hard to
27:44program a robot to navigate through space,
27:47as well as a child can or or interact with
27:50another person as fluidly as a child can.
27:53So when we.
27:54Think of the brain as a computer.
27:57We're actually cutting off or ignoring
28:00many of the wellsprings of human
28:02intelligence which are the body.
28:04Which are the fact that which do
28:06in here in the sense that we are
28:08embedded in a physical environment
28:10and we're embedded in a social
28:12network of social connections.
28:14So the other prominent metaphor that
28:16you will often hear in regards to the
28:19brain is the brain is a muscle and this
28:21is I'm circling back around to the to the.
28:24To the pandemic and your
28:26question about the pandemic.
28:27Kyle because although the idea of the
28:31brain is a muscle which is prominent
28:33in theories like the growth mindset
28:35which is put put forth by psychologist,
28:38Carol Dweck,
28:39or the theory of grit put forward by
28:42psychologist and Angela Duckworth.
28:45Although I think that idea that the brain
28:47is a muscle and the more we work our brains,
28:50the the stronger they get,
28:52the smarter we get that can
28:54be a very empowering message.
28:55In a positive message,
28:57I think it's limited in the sense
28:59that it's still brain bound.
29:01It's still focused on on the
29:02brain and the brain alone.
29:04And what happened during the pandemic?
29:06You know, as many of us found that we
29:08were working longer hours than ever
29:10because we didn't have a commute.
29:13We didn't have a water cooler chats,
29:15you know. It was just us in
29:17our computers working, working,
29:19working, exercising our brains.
29:22But we weren't a lot,
29:23so I don't think many of us
29:24felt that we were, you know.
29:26At the top of our game during the pandemic,
29:28it actually many people felt less
29:32productive or had a sense of languishing.
29:35Or, you know,
29:37simply working our brains is not enough.
29:40So again,
29:41I feel like there was almost a natural
29:43experiment that could help make visible
29:46how important mental extensions are,
29:48and I'll just say one more thing about that,
29:50which is that the thing I love
29:52about the theory of the extended
29:54mind is that it gives us so many.
29:56Avenues and so many choices.
29:58You know,
29:59if you are a committed devotee
30:02of the growth mindset.
30:05What's what's your option when you're
30:08confronted with some really difficult
30:10cognitive problem or or piece of work?
30:13It's just to keep at it and keep trying,
30:16and keep exercising them that muscle.
30:18Whereas with the with the
30:20theory of the extended mind,
30:22suddenly there's literally a whole
30:24world of extra neural resources
30:27that you can bring in to help your
30:29performance to enhance your thinking.
30:31You know you might, you might use gesture.
30:34You might act it out.
30:35You might go for a run.
30:36You might go outside.
30:37You might talk to a friend you know.
30:39I just come to me.
30:40It opens up the IT opens up
30:43the universe of options that we
30:46have for enhancing our thinking.
30:48And that's partly why I feel like
30:51such an evangelist for this idea.
30:53And it did turn out to be the
30:55big idea that I was looking for.
31:00Thank you Andy. I see John you
31:02have your hand up, yeah so.
31:07You know, I, I think the idea of
31:10of the extended mind is really
31:12resonates with a kind of fundamental
31:14and transformational process that's
31:17happening in in our universities,
31:20particularly in medical schools
31:21and research enterprises,
31:22which is a shift from a traditional
31:25focus on an individual.
31:28Scientists with the idea that
31:30there would be a certain rigid
31:32narrow set of metrics by which we
31:35could evaluate all individuals.
31:37Scientists and and a certain kind
31:39of individual productivity to
31:41a shift to thinking about team
31:44science and and that shift to Team
31:47Science has really had as its as a
31:50kind of evolves in our community.
31:54Profound consequences.
31:54Because we it's moved us away
31:57from a certain prototype of what
32:00a successful scientist works like.
32:03Thinking about a diversity,
32:05how diversity of abilities.
32:08Backgrounds perspectives can work
32:09together to make an overall team
32:12better than it would otherwise
32:14be and and and,
32:15and that in turn has changed our the
32:18way we evaluate people for promotion.
32:21We have different kinds of tracks
32:24we not only consider what an
32:27individual person does,
32:28but what do they bring to the
32:30team and how is the team advanced
32:32the community or the field?
32:34And it's it's really in some ways
32:38a very fundamental.
32:40Miffed in the way we think of
32:42what it is that we're trying to
32:44do and how we go about.
32:46Seems very much linked to this idea of
32:49the consciousness of the team as they,
32:51as opposed to the individual
32:53yes and John. I'm curious,
32:55is that what have been the challenges in?
32:58How do you? How do you evaluate what
33:01someone brings to a team or or do
33:03you evaluate the team as a whole
33:05rather than on the individual level?
33:08Well, you put your finger right
33:09on some of the hardest challenges,
33:11which is oftentimes the whole point
33:13of the team is to make invisible
33:16the individual contributions.
33:18And what what people bring
33:20to the success of the team?
33:22Because sometimes what people bring
33:23to the team is the ability to hold
33:27people together as they are making
33:29engaged in a difficult process,
33:32socially or emotionally difficult process.
33:35And so that can be a challenge.
33:39I would say that it's
33:40kind of an evolving process,
33:43but what people look for is
33:47precisely that what what do
33:48people bring to the team? What?
33:51What is a person's unique?
33:53Ability to contribute to the
33:55success of a group of people,
33:57and it's not often easy to to
34:00as precisely estimate,
34:01but it's something that we're trying to do.
34:05So interesting, yeah,
34:05that makes me think of the research.
34:07UM, by Anita Woolley at Carnegie
34:10Mellon who's looked at what, what?
34:13What are the UM constituent parts that
34:17add up to a group being collectively
34:20intelligent and one of the major factors
34:23that she has found is psychological
34:25perceptiveness you know the the
34:28individuals ability to understand other
34:30people empathize with other people.
34:34Take the perspective of other people
34:36and and she's also found that collective
34:38intelligence of a really important
34:41contributing factor to collective
34:42intelligence is how many women are
34:44on the team and those two things,
34:46not surprisingly, are they overlap.
34:52Annie, we've got a few questions in the chat,
34:55and I think Kendall has her hand raised.
34:57I'm gonna take some from the chat
34:59first and I'll read them aloud.
35:00I think this is a wonderful example
35:03of the extended mind in practice,
35:05and I think what you were hoping for,
35:06not just conversation but a
35:08kind of a collective effort.
35:10So the first question is this.
35:12How does empathy come into
35:15cognition and purposeful action?
35:17Any emotion for that matter?
35:20Yeah, really interesting question as I
35:23was I was saying a moment ago empathy,
35:26and particularly the ability to take
35:29the perspective of the other person,
35:31turns out to be. Perhaps the most
35:35important factor creating what?
35:38What scientists, what psychologists call?
35:41Collective intelligence,
35:41when the the intelligence of a
35:43group can actually be sort of
35:45more than the sum of its parts
35:47greater than the intelligence of
35:49the most intelligent individual.
35:56I'm thinking too about this
35:57is a bit of a diversion,
35:59but the first chapter of my
36:01book is about interoception,
36:03which is the perception of these
36:05internal signals and what one of
36:07the most interesting things to me
36:09about the study of interoception
36:11is not only that the the the,
36:14how informative, those internal signals,
36:16which were often interestingly,
36:18you know as a culture where we're
36:20often encouraged to sort of suppress
36:22or push aside in the interests of just
36:24powering through and getting getting it.
36:26Done with our big brains.
36:28You know, when actually this
36:29flow of internal sensations,
36:31which is always there.
36:33Has carried so much non conscious
36:36information that we we have that otherwise
36:38we have no access to or little access to.
36:41But what's so interesting to me
36:43about Interoception is not only
36:45that it informs us about how we
36:48feel and and what our past,
36:50how our past experiences can
36:52inform our current behavior,
36:54but also there's such a thing as
36:57social interoception that this is
36:58going back to that question of empathy
37:00that you know when we're talking
37:02to another person face to face.
37:04We are automatically and unconsciously
37:06mimicking in a very subtle way,
37:09their facial expressions,
37:11their gestures, their postures.
37:13And then we read off our own bodies,
37:15what what, that other person is feeling,
37:19because otherwise,
37:19you know,
37:20we have no direct access to what
37:21another person is thinking or feeling.
37:23They're their brain is a kind of
37:25black box and it's it's the body
37:27that creates a kind of channel
37:29or conduit between two people.
37:31And interestingly,
37:32therapists are kind of the are the ultimate.
37:35Experts at this,
37:36you know therapists use their
37:38bodies to sense what the other,
37:40what the patient is is feeling
37:42even when the patient may hurt him
37:44or herself may not be consciously
37:45aware of what they're feeling.
37:47That you know.
37:48And and I don't need to tell all of you.
37:50And in psychiatry this,
37:51but I think it's so interesting again,
37:53in the context of our Western culture,
37:56which says mind and body are separate,
37:59mind is superior.
38:00Mind is this sort of spotless
38:03celestial sphere of rational.
38:06Thought and the body is this irrational,
38:09ungovernable,
38:09grubby kind of animal being that has
38:12nothing to contribute to intelligent thought.
38:15When really as I've been saying,
38:17the body is a wellspring of
38:20human intelligence.
38:20And to cut it off or to disregard
38:23it is is to make,
38:24uh, it's.
38:25It's to leave a lot of potential
38:27intelligence on the table.
38:31Thanks Annie, I'm gonna take
38:33one more from the chat and then
38:35invite Kendall after question.
38:36So from the chat we have thank you for this.
38:39Literally mind expanding work.
38:41It inspires a memory of a superb and
38:43inventive mentor saying if you do
38:46not understand what you are thinking,
38:48take a walk along,
38:49walk and see what more comes to your mind.
38:53This is enormously helpful over many years,
38:56and I wonder what you have seen about
38:58such efforts to harness minds via bodies.
39:01Yeah, I love that.
39:04I love that I for me it's a bike ride.
39:06I always find that if I can't
39:09solve some tricky problem.
39:11If I go on a bike ride it comes to me,
39:14you know. And Steve Jobs,
39:16the Apple founder, said that the computer
39:19computer is a bicycle for the mind.
39:21You know, it makes the mind go
39:22faster and I've always thought like,
39:23well, the bicycles are really
39:25good bicycle for the mind.
39:27But what's interesting about that
39:29experience that so many of us have had,
39:31that, uh, that physical activity,
39:34especially physical activity in the outdoors,
39:37can. And enhance our thinking or change
39:40our thinking in a beneficial way.
39:43There's you know,
39:43there's there's reasons behind that.
39:45There's science behind that, and a couple.
39:48I'll just mention a couple of
39:50those of the relevant findings.
39:51One is that you know, we are.
39:54Again, we're embodied creatures.
39:56We understand abstract ideas
39:58through reference to our physical
40:01experiences in the world.
40:02And so a lot of our thinking
40:05is metaphorical in nature.
40:07And when we can move our bodies.
40:09In ways that stimulate the metaphor,
40:12the the associated metaphor,
40:14then we can prime the.
40:17You know we can Prime R think
40:19we can prime thoughts in the
40:21direction that we're looking for.
40:23This is sounding very vague,
40:24but I'll be more specific.
40:25Which is that when you think about
40:28creativity when we talk about creativity,
40:31you notice that the metaphors we use
40:33have to do with motion and movement.
40:35Like if if if you're not being creative.
40:38If you're if you're not.
40:40Coming up with fresh ideas often,
40:42you'll say you're stuck, or you're in a rut,
40:45but when things are going well,
40:47you might say I'm on a roll or my
40:49thoughts are flowing, you know,
40:51and the physical experience of
40:53walking or biking is one.
40:55It's kind of a loose metaphor for creativity.
40:58You know, there's an idea.
41:00There's the sights and sounds
41:02that are sort of flowing past you.
41:04You're moving forward.
41:05It's kind of a dumb.
41:07You're priming your brain
41:09to think in creative.
41:11Open minded wide Vista ways,
41:14right?
41:14And then the part about being outdoors
41:18and you know again we this is all really
41:21about thinking about what the brain is.
41:23It's a biological organ that evolved
41:26to solve certain problems that are
41:28often very different from the problems
41:30we give it to solve these days.
41:32So we have to kind of keep the
41:34nature of the brain in mind and
41:36not not mistake it for a computer,
41:38for example,
41:39because the the brain,
41:41unlike a computer.
41:42Is exquisitely sensitive to
41:44its context where it is,
41:47and you know to go back to
41:48that evolution piece.
41:49We evolved human beings
41:51evolved outdoors this life.
41:53We live where we are almost always
41:55inside a house or in a car is a very
41:58recent development in our human history,
42:00and so the kind of information or
42:03stimuli available out outside.
42:06It's very easy for our brain to process.
42:08It's very effortless to process and in fact,
42:11the things that the brain finds easy and.
42:12Effortless to process,
42:13it also finds pleasant,
42:15so that's part of why we get such
42:17a mood boost from being outside.
42:19But because we are able to be sort of
42:22just our attention is sort of pleasantly
42:24diverted when we're outside, we do.
42:27It's not that kind of focused,
42:28hard edged attention that we have to
42:31pay to our work that refills the tank,
42:33so to speak, of our attention.
42:35It's it's this is known as
42:37attention restoration theory.
42:39You know we come.
42:40We focus so much on directing.
42:43Our attention and managing our
42:44attention and being upset that
42:46our attention is being distracted,
42:48but we don't often think about like the
42:51supply side of of attention like where,
42:54where and how are we restoring our attention,
42:56not just spending it down,
42:57but restoring it.
42:59And it turns out that spending time
43:02outside is the fastest and easiest and
43:04most effective way to restore our attention.
43:06So I think that helps to explain.
43:08At least I find it useful.
43:10Those two things,
43:11the metaphorical movements that
43:13are associated with creativity.
43:14And the attention restoring
43:16aspects of being outside.
43:18I think that's why taking a walk
43:20or taking a bike route outside can
43:22so often be the the place and the
43:24time where we get our best ideas.
43:28Thanks Danny, I'm gonna invite Kendall now.
43:34Thanks Andy for your talk.
43:37I actually I never join.
43:39I'm a little bit nervous 'cause
43:40I never come to grand rounds.
43:43Ever, but I'm a postdoc at Yale
43:46and a person with lived experience.
43:49I'm a little fascinated.
43:52But also in about 2 weeks I'm
43:54teaching Clark and Chalmers essay
43:55to a bunch of graduate students.
43:57So title of your talk drew me in.
44:01And I had a question when I raised my hand,
44:04but it's gotten really complicated
44:05since then. But the so maybe it's more.
44:08Maybe I'm just more, sort of.
44:10Questions to raise,
44:11then ones I expect answers to.
44:15And I do.
44:16I was the first thing I thought of was
44:18the neuroscience that just came out of it.
44:20I think it's very preliminary and those
44:21of you who are actually neuro scientists
44:23will know more about it than I do.
44:25But and I think Doctor Crystal
44:28was referencing it the the.
44:30Caltech. It's the idea of flow.
44:34I'm working in and sort of
44:35the neuroimaging that came.
44:36I think it was when teams
44:39worked together well and.
44:41But it sort of seemed like that
44:44was one possible extension of
44:46this idea that we aren't all
44:48captured in our own atomistic way,
44:51and also the idea of sort
44:53of non representation list.
44:55You know,
44:56cognitive models that that maybe don't
44:58just manipulate internal representations
44:59and then act out in the world.
45:01And I think I don't know what to do with
45:04all of this because it's a heuristic.
45:06It's a really nice idea.
45:07It's both captivating.
45:08But also it's a little too
45:11cap capturing like it's.
45:12So things like nothing
45:14can explain everything.
45:17That said, I it.
45:20I find it an interesting UM,
45:22so the way I think of it with
45:24the Clark and Chalmers is sort
45:26of its mind body artifact and
45:27how we all interact and and how
45:30we use our environments to help us
45:32think and to change our thinking.
45:34And I think within this is speaking
45:37as a person with lived experience.
45:39I think with within the psychiatric
45:41sort of services realm there's actually
45:44a place to think about that as we.
45:47Often seem to try to change people to
45:49adapt to how we want them to think.
45:52CBT is one interesting way,
45:54like it's it's a way of.
45:58A sort of. We say what you know,
46:01thought thoughts start wrong,
46:02feelings aren't wrong.
46:04But then we immediately
46:06try to manipulate help a person
46:08aren't to reach shift those
46:10without taking as much account of.
46:13This isn't about meaning, but about
46:15how the world they're experiencing
46:17might be influencing how those
46:20representations are being like it's it's.
46:23It's almost like we're
46:24starting in the wrong place.
46:25Starting one step two up,
46:28the causal chain potentially,
46:29even though it may not be causal,
46:32I'm not really sure,
46:33but that's as you were talking.
46:34I just kept thinking this is both.
46:37Really interesting from a
46:39philosophical perspective,
46:41potentially from a therapeutic perspective,
46:44although I think that had
46:45would have to get worked out.
46:46Pretty washed out more.
46:52Yeah, I wonder. As you're talking,
46:54I'm thinking about how much the field of
46:56mental health and the treatment of mental
46:59illness has itself been brain bound.
47:01I mean all the people on this call
47:02will know more about this than I do,
47:04but it strikes me that not just
47:07intelligence and thinking,
47:08but also mental conditions and mental
47:11illness have been assumed to originate
47:13in in the in the inside the skull,
47:16when really, you know.
47:19And this is not, you know, not new to me,
47:22but the the the, these extra neural, UM?
47:26Factors are an enormously important
47:28part of what contributes to mental
47:30health and mental illness as well,
47:33I mean, and I'm thinking in I'll,
47:34I'll just mention two examples
47:36that I've come across recently.
47:37One is that an interception and faulty
47:40Intraception has is increasingly being
47:43recognized as a contributor to all kinds
47:46of mental conditions like eating disorders,
47:50depression, anxiety,
47:51panic attacks, addiction,
47:54and that's a recognition
47:56of the role of the body.
47:58In in these conditions that maybe was
48:00not fully present before and then the
48:03other thing I'm thinking about is,
48:04is Alzheimer's and other kinds of
48:08dementia and cognitive decline?
48:10And how much caregivers become and
48:13even the physical environment for
48:15people suffering from Alzheimer's
48:16becomes a part of their extended mind,
48:19and that that's that's kind of
48:22potentially revolutionary and
48:23thinking about the ethics and the
48:26treatment of people with with these
48:28conditions to to understand that there.
48:30That their minds don't just exist
48:32in their skulls,
48:33but are extend outside of them to their
48:36relationships and their physical setting.
48:39Yeah, I I. I think that's true.
48:41I just think we have to be I I
48:43want to be like I I think we can
48:45go too far sometimes with with.
48:50I want to be careful I'm in
48:51a room with psychiatrist.
48:53I think that I think I think we actually
48:55give more credit than we realize.
48:57Sometimes two external factors now,
48:59like I think the I think psychiatry
49:01has a sophistication that doesn't
49:03always get translated out to the world.
49:06Sometimes I also think it can be
49:08very destructive and very healing.
49:12So I just want but I II I
49:14don't doubt any of that.
49:16I think it's and I think what I
49:18what I really heard from you is
49:19it's the ethics of it. Actually,
49:21like what the ethics are huge yeah, that
49:24to me is what this challenge is.
49:26It's the ethics of what we do and why we
49:28do it more than the the science of it.
49:30Because I don't think I fear the
49:31day where we think we've become
49:33transparent to ourselves like I
49:35think that is a not a goal worth
49:37chasing when when human beings try
49:39to understand themselves completely.
49:41But that's a philosophical conversation.
49:43But it plays into how we proceed
49:45with our research and the
49:46questions we ask and what we're
49:47willing to listen to and hear.
49:49And that's where I think this
49:50may have a really big impact on
49:53sort of deepening conversations
49:56that. Sometimes with a computational
49:59model, we run away from
50:00me, but I don't have the ethics.
50:03You know, this has become a really
50:06active piece of the extended mind.
50:09Literature and research is on the what.
50:11What are the implications for the
50:15ethics of dealing with people when we
50:18once we start thinking of their their
50:20minds is extending beyond their brains.
50:22For example, if someone hacks your iPhone,
50:26is that simply a kind of property crime,
50:29or is it now almost like a kind
50:33of violation of your person?
50:34You know if that if your thoughts
50:36and your your mind is to some
50:39extent contained in that device.
50:40That's a whole different way of
50:42looking at what what happened.
50:43What has happened to you and how we
50:45should deal with that as a society.
50:48Kyle, did you? Did you see somebody
50:51somebody else with the question there we
50:53have some more questions in the
50:56chat was wonderful conversation
50:58on on the extended mind.
51:00You can contribute to the conversation
51:02by raising your hand in the chat
51:05and and joining us that way or
51:06by putting your question in the
51:08chat and I'll read it out loud.
51:09So I've got a couple more from
51:11the chat to read to any first one.
51:13Is this sorry I haven't read your book yet,
51:16so I think that it's in the 60s.
51:18Failed to explain. How cognition works.
51:21But BCL biological computing
51:23laboratory in technical Report number
51:269 the neurophysiology of cognition
51:29plays an interesting idea about
51:31cognition being modulated by the
51:33interaction with the environment.
51:36How do you think that education is
51:38modulated for the interaction between
51:40teacher and student brain flash body?
51:45That's so interesting.
51:45I mean, I think that's something
51:47we're just beginning to explore,
51:49at least on a neuroscientific level.
51:51And I thought of this with when
51:53Kendall was speaking a moment ago
51:55that we were starting to get evidence
51:58that when two people are In Sync,
52:00including and some of these
52:02experiments have been carried
52:03out in a classroom setting.
52:05When people are In Sync,
52:06are on the same page,
52:08there is a kind of neural synchrony
52:10that's that's happening that their
52:13their people's brain waves are kind of.
52:15Syncing up in a way that is
52:18is is visible or measurable,
52:20which is such a sort of lovely UM
52:24confirmation in a way of of the feeling of
52:26the sense that we have when we're kind of.
52:28When were, you know,
52:29we feel like we're on the same page
52:32or our brains are firing in the
52:33same pattern as as another person,
52:35but what's you know what?
52:38What's interesting to me or what
52:41what's what's iaccessible at this
52:43point in terms of what we can do
52:45to get people on the same page?
52:47Including teachers and students you know,
52:50I write in the chapter about
52:53thinking with groups about how
52:55do you create a sense of you?
52:58Know what psychologists
52:59called call entitativity like?
53:01How does a group of individuals come
53:04to feel like an entity like a group,
53:06like something like a more than
53:09a collection of individuals but
53:11actually a a coherent group and
53:13another sort of catchy or word that
53:15psychologists use is group INAS?
53:17Literally like how do you.
53:18How do you cultivate a sense of group enus?
53:21And there are some very old and
53:23and familiar or sort of hacks that
53:26people over the centuries have used
53:28to get to get a group of people
53:31feeling like a collective one of
53:33those is synchronous movement.
53:35You know,
53:36if you think about armies marching
53:39together or even in churches,
53:41people engaging in rituals where they're
53:44sort of moving as one or even like like a.
53:47Rave like when people dance and get
53:49this feeling that this ecstatic kind
53:52of feeling of being not an individual,
53:54but part of a group.
53:56That's like a very old visceral
54:00kind of primitive.
54:02Human,
54:02it's almost like a technology of
54:05group group biotechnology of group
54:07formation that when we move in the
54:10same way at the same time as other people,
54:13there's a a cognitive change that
54:15we kind of we come to understand
54:18ourselves as as being in a way
54:20like them or or part of them,
54:22or part of a whole and that makes
54:24it easier for us to cooperate and
54:26to think together so you know it.
54:28It often strikes me that human beings are.
54:31We've evolved to think.
54:33Together and work together,
54:34you know,
54:35to work in isolation or alone is not at
54:38all was not at all the the way we evolved.
54:41And yet we find it so difficult
54:43often to work in groups and people.
54:45So often you know, students resist
54:47group work and teams are often,
54:49like other people are often the like most
54:53difficult parts of doing a job right?
54:55And so, and my view about that
54:57is that we have all these very
55:01individualistic practices and protocols.
55:03Ways of working that are arranged
55:05around being an individual,
55:06thinking alone and we need to invent
55:09and implement a whole new array
55:11of practices and protocols that
55:13are oriented towards getting us to
55:16think together and productive ways.
55:18And you know, interestingly,
55:19there are industries that are
55:21kind of leading the way,
55:23UM, things like often wear.
55:27In industries and fields where it's
55:29like a matter of life and death,
55:30things like airplane pilots or
55:32I think I think even you know,
55:35in medicine,
55:36surgical teams are often very
55:38skilled at thinking together,
55:40and so we know how to do this in a way,
55:42it's just that we haven't put as much
55:45energy and thought and intention
55:47into it as we should because we are
55:51such an individualistic culture.
55:53That was a long answer, sorry,
55:55yeah.
55:57We've got a few more in the chat anti,
55:58so I'll take the next one here.
56:00How does the mind extended for people who
56:03are creative and are working in art or
56:05using colors in their day-to-day life?
56:10Oh gosh. That's a beautiful question,
56:13but I'm not sure I can answer that.
56:15Uhm, I'd love to think of
56:17color as a kind of extension.
56:20I you know, again, I find the the brain
56:23bound model of just using the brain so
56:26impoverished and so sterile in a way.
56:28I mean again, I have this image of us
56:30all just sitting in front of our screens
56:32for hours and hours during the pandemic.
56:34You know, so much of the richness
56:37of our thoughts and our imagination
56:39and our creativity comes from
56:42experiencing and sensing and.
56:44Interacting with the world,
56:46and so you know when I hear Mark
56:49Zuckerberg talked about the metaverse
56:50and how we're all going to be living
56:52like these virtual lives online.
56:54I'm like, please now we need
56:55to go the opposite direction.
56:57We need to remember that where bodies in
57:00physical space interacting with real people,
57:02please can we?
57:03Whatever the opposite of the metaverse is.
57:05Please, let's like, let's retreat to that.
57:11Here's another question.
57:12Are there implications for re framing?
57:14Are diagnostics of some systems,
57:17for example schizophrenia and hallucinations
57:20are a dissonance between body flash
57:23perception and mind or autism is a
57:26breakdown in the body's capacity to
57:28read the social environment, etc. Yeah,
57:33I mean I I you all are are more much more
57:35expert in this kind of thing than I am.
57:38I would just suggest or or.
57:41Note that I have seen more and
57:44more emphasis in what I have read.
57:48Ah, in the literatures that I have read on.
57:52The body, the role of the
57:54body in in mental conditions,
57:56the role of physical space,
57:59the role of of relationships that
58:02all these things are constituent,
58:04if not only of our thinking but of
58:06our our mental health and the ways
58:09our mental health can can go wrong.
58:11And that this again this this
58:14it's so pervasive.
58:15It's so baked into our culture again,
58:18the separation between mind and
58:19body is just so it's insupportable,
58:22you know,
58:23and it's it has dictated so much
58:25of what we do and how we do it,
58:28including in the mental health field.
58:29And I I,
58:30the more that come.
58:34An integrative kind of holistic
58:36approach is is one that's going
58:38to be the most accurate in terms
58:40of describing any human being,
58:42and any problems that a human
58:43being is struggling with.
58:49There's a comment here from
58:50Doctor Crystal two that Doctor
58:52Morris Bell in our department has
58:54been developing assessments and
58:55rehabilitative interventions based
58:57on the notion of embodied cognition
58:59that's so fascinating, huh?
59:04Yeah, I mean when you think about
59:07assessments and how and what kinds of
59:10questions are asked are people are
59:12people being or patients being asked
59:15about their physical environment?
59:16Are they being asked about?
59:18Yes, they're being asked about
59:19their social relationships,
59:20but I just I wonder how much more
59:23we could broaden those questions
59:26and those those inquiries to
59:28include the the whole world of
59:30the patient and not just you know,
59:32not just their biochemistry.
59:35I'd love to hear more about them
59:36here. Here's another
59:39really wonderful question.
59:41Thank you very much for the informative talk.
59:43Do you think that people need some
59:47training flash education to use slash?
59:49Activate the extended brain in
59:52Eastern traditions and philosophy.
59:54Mind body space are never separated.
59:57When I present this idea for my
59:59research and practice of architecture,
01:00:01I'm an architect.
01:00:02I sometimes meet the resistance
01:00:04in which people imply that
01:00:06it is hard to feel the space.
01:00:08As your extended brain when they were
01:00:10grown up with Western tradition?
01:00:12Yeah,
01:00:14that's so interesting.
01:00:15I do see this very rigid
01:00:18separation of mind and body as a
01:00:21particularly Western kind of UM,
01:00:23motif and and one that is not as
01:00:25enforced and as far as I've been able
01:00:28to tell in in many Eastern cultures,
01:00:30I'm really interested to that the
01:00:33speaker is an architect because
01:00:35to answer the first question,
01:00:37yes, I really do think.
01:00:38That we need essentially a second education.
01:00:41You know, our first education has been
01:00:43so oriented to training the brain.
01:00:45We now need a second education to give
01:00:49us the skills to to effectively and
01:00:52skillfully use extra neural resources,
01:00:55which is not an education that we get.
01:00:56We're not really taught taught
01:00:58how to use our bodies to think
01:01:00how to arrange our our physical
01:01:02setting in order to think better.
01:01:04How, how, to as I was saying,
01:01:06how to use the minds of other people.
01:01:09To think better,
01:01:10but I do think that there are spots like
01:01:13bright spots in various industries in
01:01:15various fields or people are already
01:01:17doing this and architecture is one.
01:01:19You know when you think about how much
01:01:22we try to do in our heads and how much
01:01:25more effective and efficient it would
01:01:27be to do our thinking out in the world.
01:01:29Architects are already doing that.
01:01:31You know,
01:01:32they build models of a building that
01:01:34they are thinking about constructing
01:01:36and not only can they see the the.
01:01:39Three dimensional kind of
01:01:41affordances of of the model,
01:01:43when they've, once they've built it,
01:01:44they can Orient their bodies to it.
01:01:46They can move around it.
01:01:47They can manipulate different parts of it,
01:01:50and all of those are really
01:01:53effective ways of that.
01:01:54That is thinking, you know,
01:01:56when they're moving.
01:01:57When architects are looking at and
01:01:59interacting with the model that is thinking,
01:02:01and I think that kind of interactivity
01:02:05could be incorporated into a
01:02:06lot of other fields as well.
01:02:08It always strikes me that.
01:02:10Like we think it's OK for kindergarteners
01:02:12and first graders to use the manipulatives.
01:02:15You know when they're learning
01:02:16math or something.
01:02:17But as you get older,
01:02:18you really should put away those
01:02:20those external tools and start
01:02:21to do it all up here.
01:02:22And that's actually it's really a
01:02:25mistaken idea that mature thinkers
01:02:26always do it in their head.
01:02:28It's it's.
01:02:29It's quite the opposite,
01:02:31and I think we can see that in in
01:02:33certain professions and certain
01:02:36industries where externalized
01:02:37thinking has become, it's it's.
01:02:40Part of the culture.
01:02:44Any a couple more things from the chat.
01:02:46One is someone worked who works with
01:02:49Maurice Bell says knows that she would be.
01:02:52He would be delighted to
01:02:53speak with you about Chris
01:02:55working. Yeah yeah, great.
01:02:58And then another yeah and
01:03:00then another question here,
01:03:02particularly in light of what I
01:03:03understand to be the relationship
01:03:05between your thinking on this
01:03:07topic and previous questions
01:03:09about education slash learning.
01:03:11Is it your view that the
01:03:13extended brain thesis?
01:03:14Has implications for contemporary
01:03:17debates surrounding economic inequality?
01:03:19If So what are those implications? Yes,
01:03:23thank you to hand staff for
01:03:25asking that I I that is a very
01:03:29important aspect of this inquiry.
01:03:31To me it's something that I write about
01:03:33in the book and something that became
01:03:35increasingly apparent to me over the
01:03:37course of researching and writing it.
01:03:39That if we are to understand thinking as.
01:03:44Fundamentally,
01:03:45including these extra neural resources,
01:03:47and in fact depending for its it's
01:03:50quality on these external resources,
01:03:52then the quality of the resources that
01:03:55people have access to really matters.
01:03:57You know?
01:03:57I mean, we have this fiction,
01:03:59this myth that all that matters
01:04:01is what's inside your head,
01:04:03and that a test or an IQ test or some
01:04:06other kind of achievement test is
01:04:08that it's almost like a readout of of.
01:04:11It's almost like weighing, you know,
01:04:12the way the eugenicists used to.
01:04:14Used to literally way people's
01:04:16brains that it's some kind of
01:04:19accurate reading of someone's
01:04:20intelligence in someone's potential.
01:04:22When you start thinking of.
01:04:25Thinking when you when you start
01:04:27viewing the process of thinking as a as
01:04:31really a dynamic process of assembling
01:04:33external and internal resources,
01:04:36integrating external and internal resources,
01:04:38then you then you have to pay
01:04:42attention to again the access
01:04:44and Equitable Ness of of the raw
01:04:47materials that people have access to.
01:04:49And we know that those raw materials
01:04:51are in no way equitably distributed.
01:04:53People don't have the same.
01:04:56Freedom to move their bodies the
01:04:58same access to natural spaces.
01:04:59The same access to safe and well
01:05:03designed interiors or even you know,
01:05:06access to a quiet place to to work
01:05:08or a quiet place to sleep at night.
01:05:10All these things are they they influence
01:05:13our cognition so substantially
01:05:15and yet somehow,
01:05:17it's like we erased them all when
01:05:19we have people take these tests
01:05:22that that determines so much of
01:05:25of a person's opportunity.
01:05:26In life,
01:05:27so in the book I write about how we
01:05:30should be talking about extension inequality.
01:05:32You know the inequality that
01:05:34people face in terms of the mental
01:05:36extensions that are available to them.
01:05:38We should be talking about extension
01:05:42inequality alongside wealth inequality
01:05:44or or social capital inequality
01:05:46or or income inequality.
01:05:48I think it's just as important.
01:05:55Older, you're muted.
01:05:58Sorry bout that we have time
01:06:00for a few more questions.
01:06:01If you'd like to either raise your
01:06:04hand in zoom or add it to the
01:06:07chat and we can read it out loud.
01:06:09Just working, closing in on 11:30,
01:06:12I do see another question here.
01:06:15How do you see the curriculum of
01:06:17the extended mind changing the way
01:06:19we teach our medical students?
01:06:21Oh, wow. This is something
01:06:23I'd love to think about.
01:06:24I I actually don't know very much
01:06:27about a medical education, UM.
01:06:29Except through some some intriguing
01:06:32things that people have told me.
01:06:34For example, that there's and
01:06:36maybe some of you know about this.
01:06:38There's a a platform that allows medical
01:06:41students to to learn all the voluminous
01:06:44information that they have to learn
01:06:46through through drawings and sketch,
01:06:48and like a kind.
01:06:50That's the kind of drawing
01:06:51based approach to to memory,
01:06:54which can be very effective,
01:06:55and I think is is a super interesting
01:06:58way to externalize thought.
01:07:01And capture capture information
01:07:04that may be very difficult to learn
01:07:06in a more conventional format,
01:07:08but so I again I don't know much about
01:07:11medical education in particular.
01:07:14I think in general, if I were to say,
01:07:16you know, yeah,
01:07:17let's reinvent education along
01:07:19the lines of the extended mind.
01:07:21I would.
01:07:21I think you could go through those
01:07:24three major categories and say how are
01:07:26we involving the body in learning?
01:07:29How are we giving people embodied
01:07:32experience students embodied experiences of?
01:07:35Of what they're learning in ways
01:07:37that ground abstract ideas in their
01:07:40sort of lived bodily experience.
01:07:42How are we using physical space
01:07:45to support intelligent thought?
01:07:47And how are we cultivating the
01:07:49ability to think as a group?
01:07:51And how are we, you know,
01:07:52one particular aspect of medical
01:07:55education that I think the extended
01:07:58mind could have a helpful influence on,
01:08:01is, you know.
01:08:02As in many other fields in medical education,
01:08:06experts teach novices, but experts,
01:08:10by virtue of being experts,
01:08:12are often unable literally unable to
01:08:15share all that they know because their
01:08:19knowledge has become so automated.
01:08:22So well practiced that they actually
01:08:25don't have conscious access to
01:08:27their their knowledge anymore,
01:08:28and that can be very frustrating
01:08:30for the novice for the beginner,
01:08:32because they are still.
01:08:34Learning step by step they have
01:08:37not chunked their their their
01:08:39knowledge the way a an expert has
01:08:42and so those the those chunks,
01:08:45those consolidated pieces of
01:08:47information used by an expert
01:08:49make no sense to the novice.
01:08:51So I think we need to,
01:08:54as as educators think more about
01:08:59how experts teachers can be
01:09:02more legible models for.
01:09:04Learners, you know,
01:09:06because so much of what we do
01:09:08these days is in internal.
01:09:10You know,
01:09:11in in the days of apprenticeships,
01:09:14where a an apprentice could watch a,
01:09:18a Carpenter or a Taylor do what they do,
01:09:22copy it and emulate it and learn that way.
01:09:27That's a very effective way of learning,
01:09:29and often and one that's often been used.
01:09:31Of course in in medical education you know
01:09:34what's the old saying like come see one.
01:09:36Do one, teach one or whatever you know.
01:09:38But then again,
01:09:40like so many other fields,
01:09:41so much of the work in medicine
01:09:44is now cognitive as internal,
01:09:46and so we need to design kind
01:09:48of a new generation of what are
01:09:51called cognitive apprenticeships,
01:09:52which is all about making the thought
01:09:55processes of the expert visible.
01:09:57And legible to the to
01:10:00the learner so you know,
01:10:01I think there's there's so much
01:10:03that could be from the extended
01:10:04mind that could be applied to education.
01:10:06I really think we're just
01:10:08getting started with that.
01:10:12Andy, I'm gonna invite Doctor
01:10:14Cernak Mike to come back.
01:10:16I just want to say thank you so much,
01:10:18especially for inviting us
01:10:20into this conversation.
01:10:22It may sound weird but I I think
01:10:23we were delighted to be part
01:10:25of your extra neural resources
01:10:27and we part of yours today.
01:10:29Yeah, it
01:10:30was a great proof of concept.
01:10:32We've got it. We've got it
01:10:33going on right here. There you
01:10:35go, so I'll turn it to Mike. So
01:10:37I would just add my thanks to Kyle,
01:10:40a very free ranging and freeform
01:10:43conversation that it's just a
01:10:46wonderful format and to kind of
01:10:49have a group pick your brain.
01:10:51In this very wide ranging
01:10:53conversation it was just wonderful.
01:10:55Thank you again and we should again
01:10:59thank the Pointer Foundation for
01:11:01bringing people like you to us.
01:11:02Yes, I'm so great and we hope to check
01:11:07in with you again at some future date to
01:11:09see how these ideas that have come up.
01:11:12And there was a a few times or at least
01:11:15once the question came up was will
01:11:17the recording be shared and it's yes.
01:11:20And so that would be available on our
01:11:22website pretty soon after this conclusion.
01:11:25And if I could just mention
01:11:27if anyone wants to email me,
01:11:29I'm at Annie Murphy, Paul
01:11:33alloneword@gmail.com.
01:11:34And I'm also really active on Twitter.
01:11:36If anybody wants to continue
01:11:37the conversation on Twitter,
01:11:39my handle is at Annie Murphy, Paul.
01:11:43And I I can make a plug. Thank you,
01:11:48shameless plug for any for any
01:11:51extended mind came out this year.
01:11:53Wonderful read. Maybe something
01:11:54you wanna enjoy with others,
01:11:56so hopefully pick it
01:11:57up. Thanks, Kyle. Holiday
01:11:59seasons are upon us.
01:12:01Right?
01:12:03OK, thank you.