Hormones, Heroes & Hucksters: Chelsea Clinton in Conversation with Dr. Randi Hutter Epstein
July 06, 2020- 00:00Afternoon everybody.
- 00:04Welcome to a conversation with Randy
- 00:05Hunter Epstein and Chelsea Clinton.
- 00:07My name is Anna Reesman.
- 00:08I run the program for Humanities
- 00:10in medicine here at Yale Medical
- 00:12School and I'm thrilled to be able
- 00:14to put on the special event today,
- 00:16which is the first of our lecture series.
- 00:20I will. Tell you a little bit about Randy
- 00:25and Chelsea and then turn it over to
- 00:27them to converse and we will listen it
- 00:30so Randi Hutter Epstein is a medical writer.
- 00:33A lecture at Yale English Department,
- 00:34an adjunct professor at
- 00:36Columbia School of journalism,
- 00:37and most importantly,
- 00:38writer in residence here
- 00:40at IU Medical School.
- 00:41She has worked as a medical writer for
- 00:43the London Bureau of the AP was the
- 00:46London Bureau chief of Physicians Weekly.
- 00:48Her articles have appeared in many,
- 00:50many publications,
- 00:51including the New York Times,
- 00:52the Washington Post, the Daily Telegraph,
- 00:54the Guardian, among many,
- 00:56many other newspapers and magazines.
- 00:58Randy's first book was entitled,
- 00:59Get Me Out a history of childbirth from
- 01:03the garden of Eden to the sperm bank.
- 01:05In this book she takes the
- 01:07reader through history,
- 01:08fads,
- 01:09and fables and to the fringe of
- 01:11science were audacious researchers
- 01:12have gone to extreme measures to
- 01:14get healthy babies out of mothers.
- 01:17Her most recent book,
- 01:18published this summer,
- 01:19is entitled aroused the history of hormones
- 01:21and how they control just about everything.
- 01:24The book tackles the strange
- 01:25science of hormones and the age old
- 01:28quest control them for subjects,
- 01:29and you'll hear a lot more about
- 01:31this range from leading scientists
- 01:33who make life changing discoveries
- 01:35about hormone imbalances.
- 01:36To Charlatans used those discoveries
- 01:39to peddle false remedies.
- 01:41Randy are intra bachelors degree
- 01:43from the University of Pennsylvania.
- 01:45In Ms from the Columbia School of
- 01:47journalism and MD from the Yale
- 01:49School of Medicine and an MPH from
- 01:52the Columbia School of Public Health.
- 01:54Welcome Randy.
- 02:04Chelsea Clinton is vice chair
- 02:06of the Clinton Foundation,
- 02:07where she helps create
- 02:09opportunities for people,
- 02:10families and communities to
- 02:11build better futures.
- 02:12She is an advocate for expanding
- 02:14access to early childhood education
- 02:16and providing the next generation of
- 02:19young leaders with resources they
- 02:21need to turn their ideas into action.
- 02:24She is especially interested
- 02:25in empowering girls and women,
- 02:27which seems especially appropriate
- 02:30to mention today.
- 02:32Chelsea currently teaches at
- 02:33Columbia's Mailman School of public
- 02:35health and previously worked at
- 02:37McKinsey and Company an Ave Capitol.
- 02:39She holds a BA from Stanford and MPH
- 02:41from Columbia School of public health
- 02:43and both in Master of philosophy
- 02:45and a doctorate and international
- 02:47relations from Oxford University.
- 02:49Chelsea is the author of four
- 02:51books with Debbie Street.
- 02:53Are she coauthored governing global health?
- 02:55Who runs the world and why?
- 02:57Which examines the role of public
- 02:59private partnerships in combating the
- 03:01spread of infectious diseases like aids.
- 03:03And reducing pervasive chronic
- 03:05health problems like malnutrition.
- 03:06She authored a book for readers age
- 03:0910 to 14 called it's your world.
- 03:12Get informed, get inspired and get going.
- 03:15And she's also written two picture
- 03:18books called she persisted 13 American
- 03:20women who changed the world and the
- 03:23companion she persisted around the world.
- 03:25These introduce tiny feminists,
- 03:27many activists and little kids who
- 03:29are ready to take on the world to
- 03:3113 inspirational women who never
- 03:33took no for an answer and who
- 03:35always inevitably and without fail,
- 03:36persisted.
- 03:40Thank you.
- 03:44Thank you.
- 03:48And for that introduction, thank
- 03:50you to yell into the medical school,
- 03:53in particular for hosting us today.
- 03:55I always love the chance to
- 03:57talk with my good friend Randy.
- 04:00Always learn a lot from her
- 04:02and I think as the conversation
- 04:04progresses this afternoon,
- 04:06you'll understand why.
- 04:09Although I was lucky enough to
- 04:11get an advance copy of aroused,
- 04:13I reread it over last couple of days
- 04:16in anticipation of our time together
- 04:19here and just was again reminded both
- 04:21by how much kind of we've learned
- 04:24about our hormones over last century
- 04:26and how much we still don't know.
- 04:29So I hope that we can both pro kind of
- 04:32what we know and what we don't here today.
- 04:36I will shamelessly exploit my position
- 04:38in this chair to ask questions.
- 04:40After about 25 minutes and then we'll
- 04:42open it up to all of you to ask whatever
- 04:45questions you may have a Randy,
- 04:47or if you want to ask me a question,
- 04:49I'm happy to at least entertain.
- 04:51It will probably.
- 04:54But to arouse you know one of the things
- 04:57ready that we've talked a lot about in
- 05:00the context of aroused and your other
- 05:02work is that medicine and Health Sciences
- 05:04broadly don't exist in isolation,
- 05:06kind of, from their broader cultural,
- 05:08social and political contexts.
- 05:09And one of the things I think you do really
- 05:13excellent job of an aroused is teasing out,
- 05:15particularly how culture has influenced
- 05:17and of what questions were asked,
- 05:19what research was done,
- 05:20and also what wasn't done.
- 05:22Kind of in the city of hormones.
- 05:24Could you talk a little bit?
- 05:26About that,
- 05:27sure, and I think that's the
- 05:28way I framed the book too.
- 05:30I don't cover every hormone.
- 05:31There's alot or everything that's going on,
- 05:33but I like to look at each
- 05:35decade or each time period.
- 05:37Think what does this say about the culture?
- 05:39Not so much.
- 05:40What does this say about in advance?
- 05:42But what does this say about what's
- 05:44going on so the 1920s, for instance,
- 05:461920s into the early 1930s?
- 05:47We were very curious.
- 05:49What are the ovaries secrete ING?
- 05:50What are the testes secrete ING
- 05:52it was around the time that
- 05:54we then isolated testosterone.
- 05:55The 1930s and R.
- 05:56Focus both from a scientific perspective
- 05:59but also pushed by consumers was what
- 06:01can we do with these male hormones?
- 06:03What could testicles do?
- 06:04Do we need extra ones from animals
- 06:07so at the same time when there were
- 06:09doctors and scientists navigating,
- 06:11I think a lot of their research
- 06:14then was shaped was how can we
- 06:16distinguish what makes a man a man
- 06:19and what makes a woman a woman?
- 06:21So these sex hormones then became
- 06:23estrogen equals woman test testosterone
- 06:25equals male and in some ways.
- 06:27Made a divide that doesn't that that we
- 06:30learned quickly after doesn't exist,
- 06:32but that Binary has stuck with
- 06:34us and then again in the 1950s.
- 06:37I talk about the explosion of the
- 06:39youth of human growth hormone from
- 06:41pituitary glands before we had synthetic.
- 06:43What drove it?
- 06:44It wasn't just doctors saying I'm going
- 06:47to dump all this growth hormone on kids,
- 06:50but it was people reading magazines.
- 06:52That said,
- 06:52You're short boys are doomed never to marry,
- 06:55never to get hired.
- 06:56They're going to have something we coined
- 06:59the term inferiority complex came out.
- 07:01Of this growth hormone and the potential
- 07:04that it could help young boys,
- 07:06so I think at each generation we see
- 07:08this mix of what scientists are doing,
- 07:11what doctors believe in,
- 07:13but also how were all swayed by the
- 07:16culture and what patients are demanding
- 07:18and what their fears are of the time.
- 07:21and
- 07:21I think we. All probably
- 07:25intuitively understand just.
- 07:28I would submit from the.
- 07:30Historical moment we're living
- 07:32through today something that you
- 07:34also show to be true kind of in.
- 07:37In in medicine.
- 07:38Which is that kind of in
- 07:41moments of uncertainty,
- 07:42particularly when we think about our health,
- 07:45or arguably, even more potently,
- 07:47our Children's Health were vulnerable
- 07:50to textures and fraudsters.
- 07:52An I think you do a tremendous job above.
- 07:55Kind of illuminating how that
- 07:57isn't something that only
- 07:59happened like in yesteryear.
- 08:01It's something that's happening today.
- 08:03Could you talk a little bit about why,
- 08:06particularly in the field of
- 08:09hormones you think?
- 08:11Kind of the cons have been so successful
- 08:14because we love certainty.
- 08:15I mean everybody.
- 08:16That's a doctor out there and anyone
- 08:18that's going to be a doctor soon knows
- 08:21that you're taught in medical school.
- 08:23Nothing is 100% sure everything's
- 08:24side affects life has a side effect.
- 08:27Everything is a side effect.
- 08:28You can never say to a patient.
- 08:31This is I'm going to make you happier.
- 08:33I'm going to make you better,
- 08:35but and this is what I
- 08:37learned from my research,
- 08:39I know how to be a really Good Charlotte him.
- 08:42And I have advice for anyone out there
- 08:44and you know this is not how I thought.
- 08:48I didn't think it was only
- 08:50have to work nine to five.
- 08:52Snake oil you only afterwards debating.
- 08:54Yeah only work nine to
- 08:56five you never take call.
- 08:58Don't take insurance and
- 08:59you can charge a lot. But
- 09:02here's the trick
- 09:03you see your
- 09:04soul, you right you have to be sure you
- 09:08have to take some by the hand and say.
- 09:11Your doctors are too worried.
- 09:13And with all these numbers and
- 09:15facts and data I care about,
- 09:18you don't listen to those reports
- 09:20that say 70% likelier this statistic.
- 09:23I'm going to tell you what to eat,
- 09:26what supplement to take, and don't worry.
- 09:29It's not a pharmaceutical scary drug.
- 09:31It's a really health supplement.
- 09:33Healthy supplement.
- 09:34An why you know.
- 09:36It's so healthy because,
- 09:37unlike the stuff that goes,
- 09:39gets approved from the FDA.
- 09:41That has to have a warning label in it.
- 09:45Supplements don't have to have the
- 09:47warning label an have all those things so
- 09:49actually from your patient's point of view,
- 09:52if there's not a warning label
- 09:54that says side effects may include.
- 09:57The notion could be Oh well,
- 09:59then it's 100% hell.
- 10:00So I think we we can't help,
- 10:03but it's like a human thing.
- 10:05We want control an if you notice,
- 10:07the title is how they control us, not people.
- 10:10They say you're going to tell us
- 10:12how we can control our hormones.
- 10:14Not yet,
- 10:15but maybe I'm just come back 50 years.
- 10:17We will.
- 10:18But people want surety and they want
- 10:20someone to hold their hand and say,
- 10:22here's exactly what you have to do so
- 10:25we can laugh about stuff that went
- 10:27on in the 1920s when men were told,
- 10:30you know.
- 10:30Have a vast ectomy it's going
- 10:32to boost your libido haha.
- 10:34Can't believe they fell for that,
- 10:35but you can click on Amazon
- 10:37and don't do it now.
- 10:39'cause I'll feel bad if you
- 10:40start going on the Internet now,
- 10:42but you can buy an oxytocin nasal spray
- 10:44for only for under $50.00 for $48.00.
- 10:47It could just be water,
- 10:48it could be air but it is promoted to
- 10:51spray around yourself and the person
- 10:53next to you will want to bond with you.
- 10:56So.
- 10:57You know, but it sounds funny,
- 10:59but if you go,
- 11:01if you if you go on line,
- 11:03these things are being sold and when
- 11:06we were talking earlier today though,
- 11:08you kind of had a an update
- 11:10to the story of one of the.
- 11:13Doctors, who has been promoting oxytocin
- 11:15as this kind of magical elixir to solve
- 11:18any and all challenges in ones life.
- 11:21and I will say reading it not only is
- 11:23someone who cares deeply about public health,
- 11:26but also as a mother.
- 11:30This woman, you Randy kind of orients the
- 11:33oxytocin chapter around who is Obi Wan has
- 11:36been experimenting on her own children,
- 11:39so not only did this clearly horrify me
- 11:42for all of the kind of evident reasons,
- 11:45from a kind of a public health in a
- 11:49research integrity perspective like.
- 11:52She clearly had sold the Contax herself.
- 11:56Which that is it? Pretty extraordinary.
- 12:01Dynamic and yet she may not be
- 12:03getting away with it, so Randy
- 12:05could you kind of give the other or yeah,
- 12:08the update is so in the book I write about
- 12:11a health clinic that I visited a woman
- 12:13who left her job is an OBGYN at UCLA and
- 12:17opened up a health clinic on Wilshire Blvd.
- 12:19And you walk through her
- 12:21shop to get it's beautiful.
- 12:22It looks like a spot and you walk
- 12:24through her shop where she sells her
- 12:27own brand of adrenal booster,
- 12:28prostate booster.
- 12:29All these supplements In addition
- 12:31to oxy Towson.
- 12:32Yeah, I think her oxytocin,
- 12:34which she gave me one.
- 12:35I think it was a piece of candy.
- 12:37It just tasted like sugar.
- 12:39I don't think anything gotten me but she did.
- 12:41She took one,
- 12:42she gave me when she gave her
- 12:43sister went to get her publicist
- 12:45one and then they all said I feel
- 12:47like we're bonding and she said I
- 12:50do too and we all huddled closer.
- 12:53And I didn't feel anything.
- 12:57But so I I felt a little a little guilty
- 13:00making her look sort of silly in my chapter,
- 13:03though I did do a lot of research and it
- 13:07did bother me that she is charging people a
- 13:10fortune for some of this cockamamie stuff.
- 13:13And calling herself an Ender
- 13:15Chronologist just because she sells
- 13:17hormone supplements, but I felt.
- 13:21I felt justified a few days ago.
- 13:23Actually was September 13th.
- 13:25She made it into People magazine for missing
- 13:27a uterine cancer for having patient an.
- 13:30If she missed another cancer as well.
- 13:32She is right now I'm not allowed
- 13:34to call herself an OBGYN.
- 13:36She certainly not allowed to
- 13:38call herself an endocrinologist,
- 13:39'cause you can't if you've never been
- 13:41board certified or done endocrinology.
- 13:43Who knew?
- 13:46An and she's basically being.
- 13:48She's on parole.
- 13:49She might have her license taken away.
- 13:51Now. Her response.
- 13:52I thought that was bad enough,
- 13:55like if I were her,
- 13:56which I wouldn't be her.
- 13:58But if I were her I would have gone on
- 14:02vacation or just let this fade away.
- 14:04But she actually had a rebuttal,
- 14:06which I didn't tell you about.
- 14:09We're talking.
- 14:09Her rebuttal was basically I am offering
- 14:12patients things that the medical
- 14:14community doesn't appreciate yet.
- 14:15I represent the future of Medicine.
- 14:18And so many of my patients have done well,
- 14:21so she's just digging in and standing
- 14:23her ground for an I think she has
- 14:26a lot of believers out there like
- 14:28don't believe established medicine
- 14:30there too slow there just so stuck
- 14:33on this evidence based stuff.
- 14:35But I've got a big business and
- 14:37a lot of my patients love me.
- 14:40Suzanne Somers.
- 14:40Sarah Ferguson.
- 14:41She's got a lot of testimonies.
- 14:43An as we know now and then and his
- 14:46doctors practicing testimonials
- 14:47really sway public perception.
- 14:50You're one of the I think,
- 14:53heartening elements of that story is
- 14:56that there is some accountability,
- 14:59maybe too late, arguably,
- 15:01but there is some accountability.
- 15:03And yet you're.
- 15:04Your book is full of kind of
- 15:07stories of accountability that came
- 15:09kind of decades after the fact.
- 15:12And when you first started working
- 15:14on this, I was.
- 15:16So struck a few years ago we were
- 15:18having a conversation by how much
- 15:21kind of you were teaching me around
- 15:24the story of human growth hormone and
- 15:27also how much you were teaching me around.
- 15:30Kind of the science of fertility,
- 15:32which was a kind of outgrowth of your.
- 15:36Book Get Me Out.
- 15:37One of the great titles ever of a book.
- 15:41An so I wonder if you could just
- 15:43share a little bit about what
- 15:45surprised you the most,
- 15:47and writing this book and kind
- 15:48of what you learned the most
- 15:50from in writing aroused.
- 15:53Well, a few things.
- 15:56One of the things I don't think I
- 15:58don't know if I wanna say surprise no,
- 16:01I will say surprised the power of the
- 16:03individual person to do something.
- 16:04So not just doctors.
- 16:06I mean there's some amazing scientists.
- 16:07I don't just write about cockamamie stuff,
- 16:09I write and I someone asked me if I
- 16:12intentionally sought after female
- 16:13scientist that did wonderful things.
- 16:15I didn't intentionally do it.
- 16:16We're probably on some subconscious thing.
- 16:18I read about them like you need a
- 16:20voice like you need to be known.
- 16:23So I do highlight some amazing
- 16:24female scientists,
- 16:25especially in the 1930s and 40s that had to.
- 16:28Really work hard to get their name be heard,
- 16:31but that wasn't surprising.
- 16:32One of the stories that surprised me
- 16:35was a mom in Long Island who was told
- 16:37that her son needed growth hormone.
- 16:39I won't get into all the details 'cause
- 16:41I could go on forever about this story,
- 16:44but it was the 1960s where
- 16:46people were worried about.
- 16:47Can we use this new growth hormone?
- 16:49'cause my son might be way too short.
- 16:51It was just isolated.
- 16:53This one brought her son
- 16:54to the doctor and she said,
- 16:56you know we've tried thyroid which was.
- 16:58Tried for short kids and this doctor said
- 17:00other people will give him testosterone.
- 17:02I'm not going to try that 'cause
- 17:05it doesn't work. But we could try.
- 17:07Growth hormone was from Pituitaries,
- 17:08then we didn't have synthetic.
- 17:10We could try growth hormone and the
- 17:12mom was like sure you know will
- 17:14try this and so,
- 17:15but you're going to have to collect your own.
- 17:17You're going to have if you can bring me
- 17:20pituitary zan I now know Barbara Balaban.
- 17:22This mom,
- 17:23who she thinks now in retrospect the
- 17:25Doctor was instead of just saying
- 17:26forget about it. We can help you.
- 17:28The doctor was more like you get your
- 17:31own pituitaries we can isolate the
- 17:33growth hormone and treat your son.
- 17:35Barbara Balaban was just not just.
- 17:37She was a mom in Long Island who,
- 17:40within three months became one of
- 17:43the nation's leading collectors
- 17:44of pituitary glands,
- 17:46third only to the VA in the NIH.
- 17:50And I spoke to doctor Bob Blizzard
- 17:52who is with who is on the medical
- 17:55side collecting them.
- 17:56And he did say we were going around
- 17:58asking people to donate pituitary
- 18:00glands pathologists and they would say,
- 18:02sorry, we've already promised Balaban.
- 18:04Sorry, we've already promised Balaban,
- 18:05and he was like, what's a Balaban?
- 18:07And he ends up at her door in Great
- 18:10Neck Long Island, saying, like, who are you?
- 18:13And she had?
- 18:14She kept him in nail Polish remover,
- 18:16acetone in jars,
- 18:17in her laundry room,
- 18:18and eventually she joined forces.
- 18:21Because Bob Blizzard,
- 18:21who died recently and was a leading
- 18:23figure in pediatric endocrinology,
- 18:25sore right away that he did not want growth
- 18:28hormone only to be available to those,
- 18:30either with the moxy or the money to get it.
- 18:33So he asked her to join forces and
- 18:36said We'll always have enough for
- 18:38your son as long as we share it
- 18:40so that it could be shared evenly.
- 18:43So she did. So then she became
- 18:45part of this government task force,
- 18:47but it's amazing to me what
- 18:49one woman can just do.
- 18:51She felt she needed to treat her son.
- 18:53I think a lot of moms probably
- 18:55would have felt the same way.
- 18:57Hertrich If anyone wants to know and
- 18:59my mom in the audience will love this.
- 19:02She said the reason why she became
- 19:03one of the leading national
- 19:05pituitary gland collectors is she
- 19:07wrote a handwritten thank you note
- 19:09to every single person that
- 19:10gave her a pituitary.
- 19:13Send so that will be one takeaway lesson.
- 19:16Handwritten thank you notes.
- 19:17I love handwritten, thank you know. So I'm
- 19:19going to take away that Randy can
- 19:21teach you how to be a charlatan and
- 19:23that I am teach my children how to
- 19:26write handwritten thank you notes.
- 19:27Our key takeaways from today.
- 19:31So Randy, one of the things that
- 19:33kind of you alluded to earlier,
- 19:35but I know you feel kind of passionately
- 19:38about bringing more kind of into the light,
- 19:40is how gender was constructed
- 19:42at a particular moment in time.
- 19:44And arguably we've been kind of
- 19:46dealing with the consequences
- 19:48of that kind of since then,
- 19:50and are still trying to kind of
- 19:52move away from kind of this one
- 19:54decision that was made, you know,
- 19:56a handful of decades ago.
- 19:58Could you talk a bit about?
- 20:01Kind of why there was that decision
- 20:02to kind of quantify gender is this
- 20:05idea and what the consequences
- 20:06have been. Yeah, I mean I go back to.
- 20:09I mean, we think now transgender
- 20:11people have a trans gender
- 20:12identity and I do right about that.
- 20:15But really, the concept of gender.
- 20:16It really was only used in
- 20:18grammar up until the 1950s.
- 20:20And then it Hoppin Johns Hopkins.
- 20:21There was someone named John
- 20:23money very controversial figure,
- 20:24but he was the one that said it's not just
- 20:27whether you have an over your testes.
- 20:29It's not just XX or XY.
- 20:31It's your identity which
- 20:33is made up of a whole.
- 20:34How you, how you consider yourself
- 20:36what your chromosomes are,
- 20:38what you're going ads are,
- 20:39and he actually coined this term.
- 20:41Gender to be used so it was something
- 20:43that we think of as always been around,
- 20:46but before then we said what's
- 20:48your sex not what's your gender.
- 20:50And again,
- 20:51there's been I've reached out to a lot
- 20:53of people in the Intersex community.
- 20:55People in the transgender community?
- 20:57Some of them, I think,
- 20:58felt that I wasn't angry enough in my
- 21:01chapter of intersects that I write.
- 21:03Because I don't blame,
- 21:04I don't know 100% blame the doctors
- 21:07for what they did I don't think the
- 21:09doctors in the 1950s were out to say
- 21:12how can we manipulate people and how
- 21:14can we make this decision that we
- 21:17don't care what's going to happen.
- 21:19I think there was this strong
- 21:21feeling in the 1950s and 60s of
- 21:23these children will be better off
- 21:25looking clearly masculine or looking
- 21:27clearly what we think is feminine.
- 21:29I write about a woman in my book
- 21:32who was unfortunately born in 1956,
- 21:34right at that peak.
- 21:36Of learning what we thought
- 21:37about gender and the theory then,
- 21:40was that up until 18 months,
- 21:42gender was malleable,
- 21:43so you were born a blank slate.
- 21:46We weren't thinking prenatal influences
- 21:48and that you had up until that 18
- 21:51month cutoff to make a decision.
- 21:53All you had to do was like switch
- 21:55trucks to dolls and change
- 21:57pants to dresses and this woman.
- 22:00What did happen with her was that she
- 22:02was born with ambiguous genitalia,
- 22:05but they said to her.
- 22:07They said to the mom.
- 22:09You have a son though he has abnormal
- 22:11genitalia. You have a son.
- 22:13Then there were some other issues.
- 22:14They brought him back to the
- 22:16doctor at 17 months.
- 22:17So before that cutoff and then the
- 22:20doctor said actually made a mistake.
- 22:21You have a daughter so just sign
- 22:23here and she showed me all her
- 22:25medical records in the form and
- 22:27there's just one form.
- 22:29That said, I agree to change Brian to Bonnie.
- 22:31Mom signed your name,
- 22:32throw out all the pictures,
- 22:34get rid of his man clothes,
- 22:36put in girl closed dolls and don't worry,
- 22:38it's before the 18 month cutoff.
- 22:40So as you can imagine,
- 22:42she had a very troubled upbringing
- 22:44and now she's very involved
- 22:45in the Intersex community,
- 22:47and she's very angry because in those
- 22:49days also she had surgery done right away.
- 22:52The doctor said I'm going
- 22:54to do exploratory surgery.
- 22:55He came out and said, We realized
- 22:57that she had an enlarged clitoris.
- 23:00We amputated all of it.
- 23:01We also realized that she's a hermaphrodite.
- 23:04She has some testes and ovaries
- 23:06and they wrote that in her
- 23:08chart the languages changed.
- 23:09Since then an I think.
- 23:11We, but again,
- 23:12I don't think these doctors were
- 23:14doing this because they were evil
- 23:16and trying to figure out we're
- 23:18going to just freak these kids out.
- 23:20They were doing what they
- 23:21thought of the time that.
- 23:23Let's try to make these kids feel normal.
- 23:25It was the 50s and 60s.
- 23:27You wanted to feel like a full
- 23:29woman or a full man and you wanted
- 23:31to raise your kids that way.
- 23:33We are now realizing that this should
- 23:35not be emergency emergency surgery.
- 23:37The surgery that was done is
- 23:39really considered cosmetic.
- 23:39It shouldn't be done anymore.
- 23:42Apparently it still is,
- 23:43but there is this voice going out to say.
- 23:46You can tell you can explain to
- 23:48parents slowly if your child is
- 23:50born with ambiguous genitalia.
- 23:52There's many syndromes.
- 23:53It's a big balloon umbrella term
- 23:55for many different elements in
- 23:56the Doctor can explain to exactly
- 23:58what it is an nothing.
- 24:00No cosmetic surgery needs to
- 24:01be done right at birth,
- 24:03so and there is an activist community.
- 24:05Again,
- 24:05it's coming from the patients themselves
- 24:08that are figuring out the language
- 24:10we talked a lot about language and
- 24:12words and the importance of words.
- 24:14There,
- 24:14they've driven this.
- 24:15They've driven the issue of We don't
- 24:18want to be called him Aphrodite.
- 24:20We want to be called intersects
- 24:23or differences in developmental
- 24:25in sexual development.
- 24:27And again,
- 24:27this then sort of goes in people
- 24:30with who identifies transgender
- 24:32that is very different.
- 24:34They weren't born with ambiguous genitalia,
- 24:36but they do feel and they they
- 24:38know down to the core that how
- 24:41they identify doesn't match
- 24:43their external genitalia.
- 24:44And again,
- 24:45these are issues now that doctors
- 24:47and experts are grappling with
- 24:49and trying to understand.
- 24:51I was very moved the reading that chapter
- 24:55in particular the solidarity between.
- 24:58The woman whose story is so painful
- 25:00to read as a parent because I have no
- 25:03doubt that her parents thought they
- 25:05were doing the right thing for her
- 25:08in 1956 and when she had subsequent
- 25:10surgery also still as a child.
- 25:12But how she and others are really
- 25:14supporting parents today who
- 25:16also have Intersex children.
- 25:17And that was a moment of.
- 25:21Of hope kind of in that otherwise quite
- 25:24depressing chapter.
- 25:25Yeah, and I think Bo she calls herself.
- 25:29She's been Brian then Bonnie
- 25:31and now calls herself bow.
- 25:33She really was one of the
- 25:36founders of this movement.
- 25:38Accidentally she read in.
- 25:41In the Sciences magazine
- 25:42a doctor Fausto Sterling,
- 25:44who's an anthropologist or sociologist,
- 25:46but a very brilliant woman
- 25:47at Brown University,
- 25:49wrote an article from that point of view,
- 25:52saying we shouldn't really have two genders.
- 25:54There should be 5 genders.
- 25:56It's in a short piece, and this was in,
- 25:59Oh, the 1993 and so she and she wrote,
- 26:03highlighting not really going into an
- 26:05biggest genitalia, but just talking.
- 26:07But there's.
- 26:07There's a whole spectrum.
- 26:10Bo wrote a letter to the
- 26:13editor saying I was born.
- 26:15Intersects I think she used that term.
- 26:17I was born Intersex and actually I have a
- 26:20foundation or a organization for anybody.
- 26:22That's like me.
- 26:23She didn't at the time.
- 26:25She just said I have this
- 26:27organization for anyone.
- 26:28That's like me that wants to reach out.
- 26:30She just felt that there's no
- 26:33way I could be the only one.
- 26:36And I think she gave her mailing
- 26:39address or home address and she was.
- 26:41She thought that maybe she'd here
- 26:44from 5 people and they could get
- 26:47together and have a meeting.
- 26:49It basically became a full time job.
- 26:51She was flooded with letters
- 26:52saying I thought I was the only
- 26:54one I thought I was the only one
- 26:56and that's how the intersects.
- 26:58I mean that's there're other
- 26:59people too and she doesn't like
- 27:01when I give her full credit,
- 27:03but a lot of people do give her full credit,
- 27:06but she's one of the patients that
- 27:08really got this whole groundswell
- 27:09grow and going. And Randy,
- 27:10it's not only the Doctor is kind of in
- 27:13that chapter, but often you recognize,
- 27:15I think with real kind of humanity,
- 27:17not abrogating kind of
- 27:18responsibility away from them,
- 27:19but real humanity. How often?
- 27:21A lot of doctors and other researchers or
- 27:23are doing the best they can with what they
- 27:25know and what they believe to be true.
- 27:28Absolutely, even if sometimes kind of,
- 27:29they go sideways or backwards
- 27:31from a scientific perspective.
- 27:32So you want me to tell the Steinach story.
- 27:34I do know that was my effort.
- 27:36Segue into that 'cause I know you
- 27:38want to talk about it, right?
- 27:40Yeah? So I
- 27:41mean one of the points in the
- 27:42book is that we can't just say,
- 27:44OK, these are the bad guys
- 27:46and these are the good guys.
- 27:48There's a Gray area in between
- 27:49and one of the things that.
- 27:51I think we all know is that
- 27:53some of our leading scientists,
- 27:55or the ones that see the
- 27:56data and then make a leap.
- 27:58So pushing for instance saw the data and
- 28:00he could barely see in the pituitary.
- 28:02Then we didn't have the
- 28:04sophisticated imagery,
- 28:04but he had this idea that the pituitary
- 28:07gland probably effects the body.
- 28:08People thought he was.
- 28:09There were people that really
- 28:11thought he was nuts at the time,
- 28:13but he was right so he took this sleep
- 28:15and now he could say that's wonderful.
- 28:17But sometimes people leap
- 28:18in the wrong direction.
- 28:20So that's the story I want to talk about.
- 28:22And they're not always bad guys.
- 28:24They're brilliant,
- 28:25but they just happen to a lot of brilliant
- 28:28things and then some not so brilliant.
- 28:30Even pushing himself did the first
- 28:32pituitary transplant and I'll
- 28:34just tell this little story too.
- 28:35So we did all these wonderful things
- 28:38and now everyone believed his mind
- 28:40body theories and he's famous and he
- 28:42had a man with a pituitary tumor.
- 28:44He was 48 years old.
- 28:46He was complaining of vision
- 28:48headaches and then pushing.
- 28:49Thought well 'cause he was
- 28:51a very daring bold surgeon.
- 28:53What if I take out his pituitary and
- 28:55just give him a fresh one from a
- 28:57baby that was born like a stillborn
- 28:59baby so it was before the days of IR
- 29:02BS and all that he just said to his
- 29:05he called a friend who is an OBGYN
- 29:07and said if you get a stillborn can
- 29:10I have the pituitary and I'm going
- 29:12to send a medical student over to get it.
- 29:16He did the surgery,
- 29:17he didn't want to be secret about.
- 29:19It went right to the press.
- 29:21You know, baby brain cures man
- 29:24broken brain cured by baby.
- 29:26Then it crushing thought that worked,
- 29:28but you know, of course, the man that
- 29:31had this nonfunctioning pituitary.
- 29:32So after a month or so symptoms came back.
- 29:35He wasn't feeling well.
- 29:36Cushing did it again because he still
- 29:38thought he was on the right path.
- 29:40Same medical students, same doctor,
- 29:42and this time, the man eventually died.
- 29:44Cushing, who was a, uh?
- 29:47Great surgeon artists,
- 29:48Pulitzer Prize winning author.
- 29:50Didn't like to admit his mistakes,
- 29:53shocking.
- 29:54So what he said was he was nearing
- 29:58the end of Hickory.
- 30:00Did not try to do this again,
- 30:03but he blamed the medical student for
- 30:05not getting for not going fast enough
- 30:07to get the pattern and bring it back.
- 30:10And he blamed the OBGYN for not dissecting
- 30:13it properly but he didn't try it again.
- 30:15So he made a mistake.
- 30:17The story that I'm slowly getting
- 30:19to is Eugene Steinach who was
- 30:21a scientist in Vienna who did
- 30:22Nobel Prize winning research.
- 30:24If anyone's heard his name
- 30:26now it's 'cause we think
- 30:27he was the one that started the whole 1920s.
- 30:30Vasectomies boost libido.
- 30:32And he never did the operations,
- 30:34but he promoted that theory.
- 30:36But he wasn't a charlatan, quack,
- 30:38trying to get his surgeon friends,
- 30:41a lot of money from doing worthless
- 30:44vasectomies to boost libido. He did.
- 30:46His original research was saying that
- 30:48the interstitial cell produced male
- 30:49hormone testosterone wasn't made yet.
- 30:51I love the story in a in a few ways,
- 30:54because he was right about that.
- 30:56Many of his colleagues nominated
- 30:57him 11 times for the Nobel Prize.
- 30:59He didn't get the Nobel Prize.
- 31:01'cause as we know,
- 31:02all prizes are kind of subjective.
- 31:04Alot of people on the Nobel committee at
- 31:07that time in the 1920s could not believe
- 31:09that the interstitial cell did anything.
- 31:11They just thought it was connective tissue,
- 31:13so that I've just recently read was.
- 31:16The main reason he didn't
- 31:17get the Nobel Prize?
- 31:18But then he had a theory that sounds good.
- 31:22It's just not right that if you kill
- 31:25off cells in an area or block them,
- 31:28the other ones will proliferate.
- 31:30Kind of like weeds,
- 31:32so that got him thinking.
- 31:34Oh well, then if you block something
- 31:37near the interstitial cell,
- 31:38a Vacek to me would do that.
- 31:41That'll make more interstitial cells.
- 31:43Then we'll have more of
- 31:45whatever this male hormone is,
- 31:47and that'll make people smarter.
- 31:49And better libido.
- 31:50An more wonderful whatever he thought,
- 31:52all those male characteristics were
- 31:54so he tested it on rats an he said
- 31:57he saw they became eroticized,
- 31:59which my copier said isn't a word
- 32:01and I'm like that he used it.
- 32:03He actually coined the term eroticization
- 32:05and that's what is rats became.
- 32:07And then they tested it in a man he
- 32:10didn't have. A colleague did an.
- 32:12We all know the power of testimony.
- 32:15The doctor said I want you to now
- 32:17see if you have a stronger libido
- 32:20'cause we think this is going
- 32:22to make your libido better.
- 32:24And you should feel closer
- 32:25to your 20 year old self.
- 32:27And sure enough, he did.
- 32:28Freud had it done.
- 32:30He said he felt better.
- 32:31Yates had it done,
- 32:32and said even his poetry is
- 32:34better than it's ever been.
- 32:38Steinach because the concept of
- 32:39this ectomy's for libido became
- 32:41so popular here in America,
- 32:43that Steinbeck's name became a verb.
- 32:45So people were getting Stein Act all over.
- 32:48There were doctors saying
- 32:50this doesn't make sense.
- 32:51This is testimony.
- 32:52But as you know testimony held
- 32:54sway and it didn't fade because
- 32:57doctors finally convinced people.
- 32:58I think this is placebo.
- 33:00It's Wade because we isolated testosterone
- 33:03and you don't have to grab the Vacek to me.
- 33:06You could just.
- 33:07One day get testosterone gel well and
- 33:10Randy tells the story of a band in
- 33:12London who had it done and rented the
- 33:14Royal Albert Hall to kind of prove his
- 33:16reality is going to stand on sat on
- 33:18stage and let people asking questions
- 33:20forever and ever and he had a heart
- 33:23attack and died the night before.
- 33:25Oh yes, hopefully he lived a good,
- 33:27robust life until then. So
- 33:29I want to
- 33:30open it up to
- 33:32questions. I know we have roving Mike's,
- 33:34I think will take audience questions
- 33:37for about 20 or so minutes.
- 33:39And then I want to ask
- 33:41Randy concluding question.
- 33:42And if none of you raise your hands,
- 33:45although you don't strike
- 33:46me as a retiring audience,
- 33:48but if no one raises your hands,
- 33:51I'm happy to keep asking questions.
- 33:53So with that preamble, dots.
- 33:55Questions comments for Randy.
- 33:59No no yes.
- 34:10It's OK, we can hear you too. I can repeat
- 34:12the question will repeat a mole.
- 34:14Repeat the question case.
- 34:18People live.
- 34:22Charlie.
- 34:26For example.
- 34:29Right?
- 34:33That
- 34:38Ha. OK, so the question was for
- 34:42anyone that didn't hear it.
- 34:44Why do people gravitate to goop over them?
- 34:47Their family practitioner anan.
- 34:48Why are people distrustful of Medicine?
- 34:51and I do think it goes back to were
- 34:54trained as physicians to explain the pros
- 34:57and cons of everything an there's this
- 35:00damn uncertainty that people don't want
- 35:03to hear about and so things like goop.
- 35:06I think there's a number of reasons one.
- 35:09There's surety, even though it's fake,
- 35:12there's surety in it.
- 35:15And there's testimonies, and there's some.
- 35:17You know it's interesting
- 35:18because people will say, Oh,
- 35:20I don't believe what I read.
- 35:22They do believe what's in the media.
- 35:25and I also think that as doctors,
- 35:27it's important to keep up with what's
- 35:29going on and what your patients are
- 35:32hearing rather than just dismiss
- 35:34it outright because your patients
- 35:36want you to have an open mind.
- 35:38So rather than say which you
- 35:40just want to say,
- 35:42and I'd want to say like that's from goop.
- 35:45It's ridiculous.
- 35:46Don't go there.
- 35:47I think we have this history
- 35:48sometimes of doctors,
- 35:49and I'd probably be the same way
- 35:51that you just get so annoyed and
- 35:53angry that someone would do that
- 35:54and you just want to say honestly,
- 35:56don't do that.
- 35:57Here's what you're supposed to do.
- 35:58It might be better not take an hour,
- 36:01but a few moments just to say I get it.
- 36:03I know where you're coming from.
- 36:05I know you think that you're tired
- 36:06because you have adrenal fatigue syndrome,
- 36:08but can I just explain to you?
- 36:10I know this is where this is coming from,
- 36:13but here's what I'm worried about.
- 36:14If you do that.
- 36:15And here's what I think can help,
- 36:17and I think so much of it sounds so trite,
- 36:20but so much of it does come down to doctor
- 36:22patient relationships and just taking those.
- 36:24I mean that didn't take me that
- 36:26long to say that just taking that,
- 36:28you know,
- 36:28'cause everyone complaints.
- 36:29I don't have an hour,
- 36:31but it doesn't take an hour
- 36:32just to be a little open minded.
- 36:34And also I do think like flip
- 36:36through you don't buy it but flip
- 36:38through some of these magazines.
- 36:39Go on the website, see what's out there.
- 36:41I not only think it's good
- 36:43to know what's out there,
- 36:44but it will explain your patience.
- 36:46Fears 'cause I think what's being sold.
- 36:48Some of those people are really savvy
- 36:50about knowing what people are afraid of.
- 36:53Old age.
- 36:53Loss of libido.
- 36:54I don't know, Gray hair or whatever you know.
- 36:58But I think sometimes we don't
- 37:00realize what our patients,
- 37:01your patience.
- 37:02I don't have any.
- 37:03You don't realize what your
- 37:05patients are afraid of and so
- 37:07it's good to keep an open mind to
- 37:09be reading that just so that you
- 37:12know where these market forces
- 37:13are random. I think first bonded over.
- 37:16Our distress about the Anti Vaccine Movement,
- 37:20which is another kind of iteration
- 37:23of this same challenge and as
- 37:27I have said before, I'm not.
- 37:31I'm really not a vindictive person at all,
- 37:33which is probably healthy for me in my life.
- 37:37The only person the only person
- 37:39really that I have a real vendetta
- 37:41against his Andrew Wakefield.
- 37:43There's a special place in
- 37:45hell for him,
- 37:46and and I say that because
- 37:47he has and continues to be a
- 37:49destructive force and I keep telling
- 37:51my friends in England I can't.
- 37:53You just take him back and we don't want
- 37:56him here in the United States any longer,
- 37:58but I think that he is sadly
- 38:01the the archetype of this.
- 38:03Of the prediction on fear.
- 38:05On the appeal to.
- 38:07I'm kind of in the apparent
- 38:10best instincts in the kind of
- 38:14worst and most malfeasant ways.
- 38:17Other questions in the white coat
- 38:19with white could then I don't know any
- 38:21vendors and I realize it's also not very
- 38:24particular. Thank you know you
- 38:25can't see my paint out really point
- 38:28in your direction.
- 38:29Really wonderful presentation so far.
- 38:30My name is Tara Sam from one of the
- 38:33oncologists here and I'm sort of along
- 38:35the lines of the gentleman before me.
- 38:37You know in cancer care something like 85%
- 38:40of our patients take supplements and we
- 38:42either don't ask or they don't tell us,
- 38:44but they're doing it anyway.
- 38:46So just curious about your thoughts.
- 38:48Of how we might be able to
- 38:50take it even a step further,
- 38:51not just being aware of it
- 38:53or asking about it, but.
- 38:55Should we embrace,
- 38:56you know some of these integrative and
- 38:59supplemental practices to 1st do no harm,
- 39:02but maybe how some of these
- 39:04services within cancer centers
- 39:06so that patients have a place to.
- 39:09Come to talk to people about alternative
- 39:11and complementary treatments.
- 39:12I should say complementary.
- 39:13Not alternative,
- 39:14but you know,
- 39:14we're sort of on the verge of
- 39:17some of that here,
- 39:18and I know other cancer centers are doing it.
- 39:20And if we don't do it,
- 39:22I feel like they're just going to
- 39:24go out to these private boutiques
- 39:26where they pay a lot of money to
- 39:28take a lot of supplements that could
- 39:30do harm and and so I'm just curious
- 39:33about your thoughts on what our
- 39:35role is in the medical profession.
- 39:36To address some of it may be embrace.
- 39:39Some of
- 39:39it I do think it's a good idea to
- 39:41embrace some of some of the things of
- 39:43like yoga and massage and meditation.
- 39:45An I know that there are centers that
- 39:47will tell patients we don't know if
- 39:49this is going to make you live longer.
- 39:51An it doesn't mean you weren't
- 39:53meditating the right way.
- 39:54If it doesn't help,
- 39:55but we do know it can help make
- 39:57you feel better along the way.
- 39:59and I do think that show.
- 40:00Patients that you do have this open mind,
- 40:03but yeah, I do think that it allows
- 40:05them then to maybe open up and shows
- 40:07that you're more open minded to
- 40:08tell you about their supplements.
- 40:10When I was in the gym the other day
- 40:12and I heard like look like a 20 year
- 40:14old trainer telling someone hears
- 40:16the supplements I'd like you to take.
- 40:18He was talking to like a 60 year old man
- 40:21and I was like do I do I get into this kind?
- 40:24do I inject myself and I can hear my girls
- 40:27saying even though they weren't there?
- 40:29No stay out of it.
- 40:30Stay out of it.
- 40:32But Fortunately,
- 40:32as he would listed all the supplements
- 40:34that this guy should by the response
- 40:36right as I was about to interrupt,
- 40:38he said, you know,
- 40:39I've had a history of the
- 40:41patient or the train.
- 40:42The guy working out.
- 40:43I've had a history of kidney stones.
- 40:45My doctors told me that,
- 40:47you know if anyone ever recommends a
- 40:49supplement to really check it out with him.
- 40:51So if you can write them down and I'm
- 40:54going to bring it back to my doctor just
- 40:56so he knows 'cause it was really painful.
- 40:59Those kidney stones and I
- 41:00don't want to do anything.
- 41:02OK, and I didn't interrupt
- 41:05even join the conversation.
- 41:07But yeah,
- 41:07I do think what you're saying like
- 41:09rather than say we're not going to
- 41:11do any of that here because it's
- 41:13not going to make you live longer
- 41:15to have to show that you're open to
- 41:17these suggestions an that if this
- 41:18makes the journey easier for you,
- 41:20but we don't want you spending your
- 41:21money or doing something that can interact,
- 41:23I think one of the things that
- 41:26people don't understand is.
- 41:27That they feel like and I always
- 41:29try to say people if you think
- 41:31it's potent enough to do good,
- 41:33it's got to be potent enough
- 41:34to have a side effect.
- 41:36For some reason they get that chemo
- 41:38can do good things and bad things,
- 41:40but supplements can only do the good
- 41:42thing and some might be doing a good thing.
- 41:44But they also might be doing.
- 41:46I mean you know this.
- 41:47I'm telling this to you,
- 41:49but I do think, yeah,
- 41:50it's that we should have.
- 41:52Complementary medicine available.
- 41:56Other questions, any
- 41:58questions in the balcony? Yes.
- 42:04Hi, my name is Molly Dornburg.
- 42:06I'm a student, the school of
- 42:08Public Health. I am wondering
- 42:10how you think about and how you
- 42:13address in your book the relative. I guess I
- 42:16would say lack of
- 42:18intersectionality in this history
- 42:19in terms of like race, ethnicity,
- 42:22socioeconomic status, etc. In
- 42:25terms of medical history,
- 42:26mean in terms of how and whether
- 42:29at all this history applies to
- 42:32people who are non affluent and
- 42:34nonwhite, I think there's been I mean.
- 42:38I just look at the history,
- 42:39not trying to change things,
- 42:41but I think yeah,
- 42:42this comes up a lot in what I write and
- 42:45what I've looked at both in childbirth,
- 42:47an in hormone therapy we know when the
- 42:50birth control pill first came out.
- 42:51It was mainly white women that can afford it,
- 42:54and then there were fears than
- 42:56that it was being pushed on.
- 42:58People on on sterilization
- 42:59that didn't want it.
- 43:00So we have this mixed history and
- 43:02that again it's interesting like
- 43:03Barbara Balaban for instance,
- 43:05the one that.
- 43:07That was the big growth hormone collector.
- 43:10She's a white woman from Long
- 43:11Island and she had told me that her
- 43:14doctor was just kind of nasty to
- 43:16her an actually I gave a talk here
- 43:18about that chapter while ago and
- 43:20someone came up to me and said no.
- 43:22Actually, she wasn't a nasty doctor,
- 43:24but the doctor that Barbara Balaban
- 43:26went to had such a concern to make sure
- 43:29that hormones were divvied up evenly,
- 43:31that I think she was annoyed
- 43:33that this one patient was able
- 43:35to do so well on her own.
- 43:36So they had this contentious relationship.
- 43:38But I do think yes.
- 43:40It's been.
- 43:40There's been a whole history of
- 43:42certain types of medicine that are only
- 43:44available to those that can afford it.
- 43:46And it's not just who can afford it,
- 43:48but also who has the agency
- 43:50to say to their doctor.
- 43:51I mean,
- 43:52my last book was on history of
- 43:54childbirth an it was always sort
- 43:55of the women that felt they could
- 43:57speak up to doctors to say no.
- 43:59No, you're not doing that to me.
- 44:01Or yes, you can. So it's this.
- 44:03Yes,
- 44:03I I see what you're saying and it's
- 44:05this long history not just of money,
- 44:08but of race.
- 44:09But also,
- 44:09socioeconomic and a lot of
- 44:11that informs how much power a
- 44:13person feels they have to speak
- 44:15back to their physician and
- 44:16you do touch on that a little bit in
- 44:19your eugenics. Yeah, yeah discussion.
- 44:22Oh Gosh, Yes. Yeah, long hair.
- 44:27Write code long hair.
- 44:33Remind
- 44:44president.
- 44:57Yeah, hopefully we're getting away from that.
- 44:59Yeah, and it was. It was like OK,
- 45:01anti mullerian hormone even in the
- 45:03beginning 'cause you know we all look
- 45:06alike in the very beginning when you're in
- 45:08that little Chris on stage of fetal life.
- 45:10And then it's when antimalarial
- 45:12hormone kicks in that you either
- 45:14choose one fork or the other.
- 45:16And yes there has been.
- 45:17I mean some of the quotes are
- 45:19just amazing in terms of anything
- 45:21that we've put towards a man and
- 45:23testosterone which means more stronger,
- 45:25more career oriented.
- 45:26I mean there there was a quote
- 45:28that I have in my book.
- 45:30Even from when estrogen and
- 45:32testosterone refers to isolate.
- 45:33And we thought OK, what can we do?
- 45:36How? Who needs this?
- 45:37Who doesn't,
- 45:38and one of the doctors said,
- 45:40you know we have to be careful because
- 45:42soon enough women will think that their
- 45:45ambitious enough to have careers so and he.
- 45:47I don't think he was kidding.
- 45:50And then someone said the response
- 45:53was this goes back to the 20s where
- 45:56we called like feminist suffragettes.
- 45:58But could we turn those suffragettes
- 46:01back into maternal housekeepers again?
- 46:04I think that hopefully we're
- 46:06getting away from that,
- 46:07but it is something still ingrained.
- 46:09A colleague of mine is writing a
- 46:11book just on testosterone and she
- 46:14calls it the aspirational hormone.
- 46:16She's done a lot of work with
- 46:18gender issues and the Olympics.
- 46:20That's her expertise,
- 46:21not mine,
- 46:22but we still think that these women
- 46:24that have slightly higher testosterone.
- 46:27That's what's making them
- 46:28run faster and do better.
- 46:30And we know that from her studies
- 46:32and what she's looked into.
- 46:35That it doesn't always that they.
- 46:36I mean some of these women
- 46:38have lost some of these women,
- 46:39even with the little extra
- 46:41testosterone that they were born with.
- 46:42Not doping hasn't had the impact
- 46:44that we think, but it is.
- 46:45It's ingrained we're trying
- 46:47to get away from that,
- 46:48but it's very ingrained in our system.
- 46:51Yes.
- 46:56So my question is basically about the
- 46:59size about the challenger industry.
- 47:01And do you think that it's
- 47:04grown over the past decade?
- 47:06And could this relate to perhaps
- 47:08like growing distrust of the
- 47:10medical institution or even people
- 47:11unable to afford health insurance?
- 47:14Do you think that these factors
- 47:16and potentially played a role?
- 47:19I think it's the people that have the money
- 47:22that can keep the charlatan businesses going.
- 47:24Those that can afford insurance and
- 47:26those that can afford medicine cannot
- 47:28afford these people, and they're
- 47:29not giving out their stuff for free.
- 47:32I think it's so easy to say,
- 47:34Oh my God, it's worse now than ever.
- 47:36But if you look back in history the 1920s
- 47:39they would say it's worse now than ever.
- 47:41Every generation you think
- 47:43it's worse now than ever.
- 47:44So I kinda think we have
- 47:46these pushes and pulls.
- 47:47and I do think when people are
- 47:49distrustful of the medical
- 47:50establishment for whatever reason.
- 47:52It drives people to seek help elsewhere.
- 47:54Is the testosterone
- 47:55industry booming right now?
- 47:57I mean, I got on the sub on
- 47:59the Metro-North yesterday,
- 48:01right to a poster that said like,
- 48:03are you feeling fatigued ahead of you know,
- 48:06all men?
- 48:06It didn't say this,
- 48:08but basically it was like all men over
- 48:10the age of 30 could use testosterone.
- 48:13Call this clinic.
- 48:14It's right near a Metro North Station,
- 48:16so that's a huge industry now.
- 48:19But we had.
- 48:20I think it might have been even
- 48:22more in the 1920s when.
- 48:24There is no one really clamping down,
- 48:26but I think it's oh there's always
- 48:27going to be someone out there to
- 48:29get that low lying fruit and see.
- 48:31Oh wait,
- 48:32we just learned that oxy Towson
- 48:34is something just social skills.
- 48:35I'll put that in a bottle and sell it.
- 48:38You know,
- 48:38there's always someone that's clever
- 48:39enough to figure out.
- 48:41One last question could have been
- 48:43very patient in the Blue Ann.
- 48:44Yeah, sorry, so I'm sorry we can
- 48:46get to the other hands, but yes.
- 48:49Hello. I had a question you might comment
- 48:53so its fashions in stated that we live in
- 48:56this post truth world where we may not
- 48:58value evidence and facts and rationales.
- 49:00We once did I wonder in your research
- 49:02of the evolution of American
- 49:04culture in the 1920s present day.
- 49:06You might comment on the evolution of
- 49:08the value of evidence and rationale.
- 49:11That looks like maybe even the world
- 49:13of social media and so forth. Yeah,
- 49:16I think the world of the Internet and
- 49:18social media has really changed it.
- 49:20Just because in terms of these
- 49:22new fads can just go viral.
- 49:24That's we call it, you know, much faster,
- 49:27and I think it's just hard to push
- 49:30back against testimony an I think yeah,
- 49:32it's always been there.
- 49:34But I don't think you could create
- 49:36that wave as quickly as you can now
- 49:39in terms of treatments and drugs
- 49:41that are thought to save your life.
- 49:43And as much as people say they
- 49:46don't believe it, they do.
- 49:47And that's the hard thing.
- 49:49What can we do?
- 49:50You know we can clamp down on doctors
- 49:52like my oxy Towson Salesperson.
- 49:54It's very hard to clamp down on people
- 49:56posting stuff or misconstruing a
- 49:58lot of it isn't just from nowhere,
- 50:00its people.
- 50:00Misconstruing What's in the media
- 50:02and then you know it's almost
- 50:04like the game of telephone,
- 50:06and we're constantly working against that.
- 50:07And again, it's freedom, the press.
- 50:09So how do you clamp down on all this?
- 50:13And I do think I think yeah,
- 50:15it gets back to basic cause and effect.
- 50:18Two.
- 50:18I mean the whole thing with
- 50:20vaccines or people were saying no,
- 50:22no no.
- 50:22My kid had a vaccine and then two
- 50:24years later was diagnosed with autism.
- 50:27There's a fact there's you know.
- 50:28So it's it's not just like these
- 50:30things that have nowhere.
- 50:32It's the way they see the data to or the
- 50:35measles isn't so bad for you, right?
- 50:37I want to end on an optimistic note.
- 50:39Hopefully the Randy.
- 50:40The first story that she
- 50:42shares in her book as.
- 50:44About a woman named Blanche Gray who had.
- 50:47The like horrific.
- 50:53Name, I guess is being the
- 50:55fat bride in the early.
- 50:5720th century and yet she says if she was
- 51:01born on the wrong side of medical discovery.
- 51:04That had she been born later,
- 51:06there would have been clear interventions to
- 51:08help kind of save her life, improve her life.
- 51:11Hopefully also she would have been born
- 51:14at a time when kind of bullying was not
- 51:17an acceptable form of communication.
- 51:19And so I want to ask Randy like what
- 51:22are we on the other side of now?
- 51:25Oh I think what do you think that in
- 51:28the study of hormones or otherwise?
- 51:30You know, for your crystal ball,
- 51:32what do you see?
- 51:34Kind of coming down the Pike.
- 51:36what
- 51:36I think is really exciting now an
- 51:38I sort of I can say to this yell
- 51:41audience 'cause I start with Cushing.
- 51:43Who is it? Yell and then I just spoke
- 51:46to a wonderful researcher right here.
- 51:48Sabrina Deano. Who's doing now?
- 51:51Some of the cutting edge
- 51:53neuroscience endocrine work?
- 51:54I think what's really on the cutting
- 51:56edge now is hormones and behavior.
- 51:58So a few decades ago,
- 52:00we realized that the fat cell isn't just
- 52:03a glob of butter that I thought it was.
- 52:06It's actually an endocrine
- 52:07cell that secretes hormones.
- 52:09But when we learned that leptin as
- 52:11our appetite suppressing hormone,
- 52:13you can't take it,
- 52:14you're not going to lose weight from it.
- 52:17But even though there are
- 52:19leptin diet puts out there.
- 52:21But what the fascinating part
- 52:23isn't that people that have leptin
- 52:25defects gain weight more quickly.
- 52:27It doesn't affect their metabolism,
- 52:28it drives them to eat their compelled to eat.
- 52:31And people with leptin defects
- 52:33that eat all the time.
- 52:35It's not like they're enjoying their food,
- 52:37it's just this compulsion.
- 52:38So when I spoke to the scientists
- 52:40that are doing that research,
- 52:42or that isolated that gene
- 52:44there feeling was there,
- 52:45not just excited about what
- 52:47can we learn about obesity?
- 52:48But this is about behavior.
- 52:50This is showing us.
- 52:51That hormones are controlling our behavior,
- 52:54not just growth and metabolism.
- 52:55Can we control our behavior?
- 52:57Thurmans do we understand the criminal mind?
- 52:59No,
- 53:00but I mentioned Sabrina Diano 'cause
- 53:02she's doing fascinating work with leptin,
- 53:04an looking at in the inside the cell,
- 53:06not just receptors.
- 53:07But I think we're really honing
- 53:09in on the details of the cell
- 53:12to really understand behavior.
- 53:13We're not there yet.
- 53:15And will we control it?
- 53:16That's always that really weird question
- 53:19of how much control do we want to have?
- 53:22So the more we know, I
- 53:24guess we're on the verge.
- 53:26We've got great technology
- 53:27and even though I make fun
- 53:29of some wacky scientist,
- 53:30there's some really wonderful
- 53:31ones on great research going
- 53:33on now. So since we are in
- 53:35an educational institution,
- 53:36hopefully kind of where in the presence
- 53:38of more wonderful than wacky scientists,
- 53:40although there and hopefully a little
- 53:41a little bit of wacky as you also show
- 53:44in terms of kind of being able to
- 53:46imagine the previously unimaginable,
- 53:48is also crucial.
- 53:49Part of driving us forward.
- 53:50I'm so thankful to Randy for.
- 53:53Her commitment to taking kind of
- 53:55conversations that often only
- 53:56happened in institutions like this
- 53:58kind of out into the broader public,
- 54:00because I think that kind of her
- 54:03another's ability to do that,
- 54:05is it a crucial part of trying to
- 54:07ameliorate the distrust that so many of
- 54:10you ask questions about and tried to?
- 54:12Once again,
- 54:13orientis around a shared fact,
- 54:15based which hopefully.
- 54:18People who aren't as acquainted
- 54:19with what a leptin is or isn't,
- 54:21could still use to empower themselves to
- 54:23make the best decisions for themselves,
- 54:25their children, their futures,
- 54:26because we're all better
- 54:27off when that happens.
- 54:28So Randy, just thank you so much.
- 54:30Thank you and I thank you for
- 54:32hosting us today. Thank you.