Integrating Neuroscience, Health Advocacy, and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Tools for Societal Good

April 24, 2024

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YCSC Grand Rounds April 23, 2024

Nii Addy, PhD, Albert E. Kent Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Associate Professor of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Yale School of Medicine

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00:00OK, So I'm very pleased and very
00:04excited to introduce Doctor NI.
00:07Addy. NI is the Doctor.
00:08Addy is the Albert E Kent Associate
00:10Professor of Psychiatry and associate
00:13professor of Cellular and Molecular
00:15Physiology and the inaugural director of
00:18the Scientific Diversity and Inclusion
00:21at the Yale School of Medicine.
00:23He's also director of faculty
00:25mentoring program for the Moore
00:27Organization and Co chair of the
00:30Career Development Subcommittee of
00:31the Anti Racism Tax Task Force in
00:33the Yale Department of Psychiatry.
00:35He received his BS from Duke University
00:38and his PhD in neuroscience from Yale.
00:41He directs A federally funded
00:43research program investigating the
00:45biological mechanisms mediating
00:46substance use and mood disorders.
00:48And Doctor Addy also his team also studies
00:51the ability of tobacco product flavor
00:54additives to to alter nicotine use,
00:56behavior and addiction.
00:57OK, so he's an established scholar.
01:00He has published widely,
01:02sits on different journal review boards,
01:05and also has presented his
01:07scientific lectures at universities
01:08throughout the US and Europe.
01:10But that's not the reason that
01:11he was invited to talk today.
01:12That's only one piece of the puzzle.
01:14OK, so the really interesting stuff,
01:16at least from my perspective, all the sides.
01:18It's interesting too,
01:20is that he also hosts the Addy Hour podcast,
01:23which focuses on topics at the
01:25intersection of neuroscience,
01:26mental health, faith, culture,
01:29and social justice.
01:30Episodes include dynamic conversations
01:32based on the lived experience and
01:34professional expertise of his guests,
01:36which include community leaders,
01:38clinicians and mental health experts,
01:40scientists,
01:41professional athletes and entertainers,
01:43faith leaders, and mental health advocates.
01:46As the creator and host of these
01:48town hall community events,
01:50Doctor Addie has also built unique
01:52partnerships to encourage and equip
01:54audiences to embrace the use of holistic,
01:56integrated tools to address
01:58mental health challenges.
01:59His research and community work
02:01have been featured by NPR Newsday,
02:04the National Football League Players
02:06Association, Source Magazine,
02:08Chuck Norris Bowl TV,
02:09Legitimate Matters and Relevant Magazine.
02:12Finally,
02:12he serves on the Board of Trustees
02:14for the Carver Project,
02:15aimed at empowering and connecting
02:17individuals across university,
02:19church and society.
02:20So please join me in welcoming Dr.
02:22Addy to the Child Study Center.
02:31Thank you, Doctor David,
02:32for that introduction.
02:33It's good to be here with all of you.
02:34I've been told that that's the camera I'm
02:35supposed to look at for the folks online,
02:37so I'll try and address
02:38you all at times as well.
02:40But it's great to be here.
02:41I've been really encouraged to hear
02:43about this Grand Rounds lecture series,
02:45so thanks to Doctor David.
02:46Thanks to Doctor Maze
02:47for the support as well.
02:49Specifically because of how
02:50transformative it is to really have
02:52something that's focused on leadership.
02:54I know you've had transformative
02:55leaders that have been here speaking.
02:56And so I feel very honoured to be
02:58included in that fold, as it were,
03:00to be able to speak with you all today.
03:02So I know we're going to have
03:03some Q&amp;A time afterwards.
03:04What I thought I would do is just
03:06start out with some general comments.
03:08I will admit my title is a little bit,
03:11what's the right word to say,
03:12ambitious, grandiose.
03:13I see you all are are reacting,
03:16so you may have had some thoughts
03:17as you read the title as well.
03:18But I thought I'd give you a
03:19little bit of a sense of how
03:21I actually got to that place.
03:22So I'm going to try and be a little bit
03:24vulnerable and kind of peel back the layers,
03:27as it were,
03:27for how I actually got to this place
03:29of serving in these different roles
03:31and trying to have the ambition to
03:33make an impact in terms of societal good.
03:35So hopefully that will be something
03:37that will be helpful to you all.
03:39I will also say there's a a
03:40shift here that I feel as well.
03:42So even as you heard about as
03:44Doctor Dave was describing,
03:45some of the things that I've done,
03:47a lot of that involves interacting
03:49in different communities.
03:50And so just with who I am,
03:52my personality,
03:52I really enjoy getting out and
03:54doing those types of things.
03:55I enjoy that much more than
03:57actually talking about it.
03:58So if I had my choice,
03:59this might surprise me.
04:00I'm actually a background person.
04:01I don't like being in the spotlight.
04:03And so it's been a shift to actually
04:05step into leadership roles to
04:06actually move things forward.
04:08But there is also a little bit of just,
04:09this is not the right word,
04:10but weirdness for me to actually
04:12talk about that here at Yale because
04:14so much of it has been with Yale,
04:15but also going out into communities.
04:17So this is, I think, a healthy shift,
04:18and hopefully that will be helpful
04:19for you all as well.
04:20And thank you to Doctor David
04:22for actually facilitating that.
04:23Because I'll just tell you honestly,
04:24that's not something I would
04:25choose to jump into and be like,
04:27let me just talk about all the other
04:29things I'm doing while I'm here on campus.
04:30So in a sense,
04:31you've created an opportunity.
04:32So I've given a lot of
04:34caveats, but let me go ahead and jump
04:36into just some of the opening remarks.
04:38And I will say this will
04:39sound a little bit strange,
04:40but one of the main reasons I feel
04:42like I'm doing so much of this work
04:45is really born out of frustration.
04:47And I've used that phrase in other scenarios
04:50before sometimes when I've given keynotes.
04:52And I always acknowledge that's a little bit
04:53of a weird place to start a presentation,
04:55like to tell you,
04:56obviously you're frustrated,
04:57but it's kind of the reality
04:58of how I step into this work.
05:00So it's what I thought I would do is tell
05:02you a few different stories about where some
05:04of that frustration actually came from.
05:06So the first story,
05:07this is actually going back
05:08maybe about 10 years or so.
05:10I was giving a talk at Emory University.
05:12I've been invited by the students to come and
05:14speak on a mental health and faith topic,
05:17so they had me as a neuroscientist.
05:19They also paired me with a
05:20clinical psychologist on campus,
05:21and we're just talking about
05:23different aspects of mental health
05:24from a neuroscience perspective,
05:25psychological perspective,
05:26and then also thinking about
05:28aspects of faith.
05:29So it's a really generous
05:31and generative conversation.
05:32I remember at the end of the conversation,
05:34one of the students in the
05:35class raised her hand.
05:36So I have found out later she was
05:38actually studying behavioral neuroscience.
05:39So she's already thinking a lot about the
05:41brain and how that impacts mental health.
05:43But she said she had a hard time
05:45interacting and giving guidance
05:46to an aunt who is struggling
05:48with addiction and depression.
05:50And she said that aunt kept being told
05:52that the only reason she wasn't getting
05:54better is because she wasn't praying hard.
05:57So I'm seeing some of your facial
05:58reactions to that as well.
05:59I can't see the folks online.
06:00You might have also had
06:01some facial reactions,
06:02but that's something that hit me in
06:04a really odd way and just LED to a
06:07a feeling of frustration because
06:09of that scenario.
06:10Now Fast forward a few years later,
06:12this time I was teaching a class
06:14here on campus,
06:15teaching the medical students and talking
06:16a lot about the work that we do in the lab,
06:18looking at the neurobiology of
06:20relapse and how different processes
06:22in the brain facilitate craving
06:24and can actually lead to relapse.
06:26Now in this situation,
06:27it has students in that lecturer who raised
06:29their hands that this is all well and good,
06:30but what are we supposed to do
06:32with those people that think that a
06:34higher power can help them navigate
06:35through their mental health channels?
06:37So again, I was feeling frustrated.
06:39On the one hand,
06:40I was frustrated that somebody
06:42would be appropriately, I think,
06:44using spiritual practices,
06:44but almost being told to ignore
06:46everything we know about psychology,
06:47psychiatry,
06:48all these other aspects.
06:49And on the other hand,
06:50having someone who's paying
06:51attention to those pieces,
06:52but ignoring everything we know about
06:53the power of being part of community,
06:55the power of being the faith community.
06:56And so it was a frustration that
06:59I was feeling on both sides.
07:01Now, that wasn't the only
07:02thing that was frustrating me.
07:02Those I mentioned were two separate
07:04events that happened years apart.
07:06But some of the things that were frustrating
07:08were just kind of in my daily navigation.
07:10So as you heard,
07:11I actually lead a research program
07:12here in the psychiatry department.
07:14So running a research lab,
07:15we're particularly focused on anxiety,
07:17depression, addiction,
07:17really trying to understand the basic
07:20neurobiology of those challenges.
07:21And then also to do work,
07:23we can try and look for novel therapeutic
07:25targets and then build collaborations with
07:27clinicians to actually do clinical studies,
07:28which we're in the middle of setting up.
07:30So with that is also a large research team.
07:33And I always think about the aspects of
07:35community that we have together as community,
07:36but doing that work as a community.
07:38I have undergraduates in the lab,
07:39graduate students,
07:40post BAC students,
07:42some PhD students, MDPHD students,
07:44the research staff.
07:45And so we're all community
07:46together doing that work.
07:47There's a lot of mentorship
07:48that comes from that,
07:49but there's also aspects where we all
07:51have to walk through life together.
07:53That's something I think hopefully
07:54we can all appreciate even more
07:56so after everything that we've
07:57gone through for the pandemic.
07:59So one specific situation,
08:01I remember going up to the
08:02lab one day out this,
08:03I was in the building where I had to
08:05take the elevator to go up to my office.
08:06And on the way to my office,
08:07I felt like I heard someone
08:09weeping in in the restroom.
08:10Wasn't sure exactly what that was about.
08:13But later that morning,
08:14I had a meeting with one of my
08:15students to basically just do
08:16kind of a a research check in,
08:18talk about research progress.
08:19And I could tell the students really trying
08:21to kind of move through all the research,
08:23but was having a hard time.
08:25So I took a pause to just kind
08:27of check in with the students and
08:29see how they were doing overall.
08:30Now,
08:31this actually happened to be the same
08:33day of the George Zimmerman trial
08:34in the killing of Trayvon Martin.
08:36The student also was a black student,
08:38and so they were having a really
08:40difficult time with the verdict and
08:42actually navigating through that.
08:43So in that moment,
08:44I think it was really important
08:45for me and really helpful for me
08:47to kind of pause and step back and
08:49have that space where the student
08:50can really process all the emotions
08:52they were feeling at that time.
08:54Now, at the same time,
08:55I was doing this while I was
08:56also processing my own emotions,
08:57a mixture of emotions, frustration,
09:00outrage, anger, hopelessness,
09:01all kind of mixed in together,
09:04but trying to guide a student
09:06through that process at
09:07the same time. So I say that to
09:08say it wasn't an easy moment,
09:09but I think it was a very
09:11helpful moment for both of us.
09:13But the part that got even more challenging
09:14is after that meeting later on the day,
09:16I had to go to a a more general
09:18meeting with other faculty.
09:19It was actually very strange to
09:21walk into that setting because
09:22when I walked into that setting,
09:24everybody was smiling.
09:25People were just checking in,
09:27saying, oh, how are you doing?
09:28And I have to admit,
09:29I didn't feel courageous enough to actually
09:31say how I was feeling in that moment.
09:34And it felt a little bit surreal
09:36because it was almost as if nothing
09:38had happened to touch our national
09:40public conscience in that moment.
09:42People were just doing business as usual.
09:43I don't know if that's because people
09:45didn't know about the situation or
09:46they didn't know how to respond to it.
09:48But again,
09:48I kind of left that setting feeling
09:51very disjointed and then and then
09:53again also feeling frustrated.
09:55So with that frustration,
09:56I try to channel things into making actions.
09:59And one of the things that you heard
10:00about is the podcast conversations.
10:02I started in 2021,
10:03or I have these conversations
10:05with lots of different people at
10:07the intersection of neuroscience,
10:08mental health, faith, culture,
10:10and social justice.
10:11So that has been very encouraging to see.
10:13But initially there was also from
10:15some frustration with that as well.
10:17So I remember talking to a prominent
10:19basic scientists in the field and their
10:21knee jerk reaction to the podcast was why?
10:23Why are you talking about that?
10:25You're a basic scientist?
10:26As if I had somehow stepped out of my
10:28lane and was doing something that was
10:30outside of the realm of what I was,
10:32quote UN quote, allowed to do.
10:34Now,
10:34in retrospect,
10:35I think that was that comment
10:36was actually said in innocence,
10:38not with any ill intent.
10:40And this is someone who has actually
10:41been much more supportive after the fact.
10:43But just hearing that also gave me
10:44a glimpse of how people respond to
10:47these types of conversations and
10:48kind of the boxes that we sometimes
10:50put ourselves in or have other
10:52people put us in inadvertently.
10:54So again, another source of frustration.
10:56But thankfully,
10:57it's not just frustration that
10:59has facilitated this whole piece.
11:00There is a lot of also a lot of
11:02hope that I felt throughout the
11:03processes and the different things
11:05I've been able to be involved in.
11:06So the one that caught me off guard,
11:09this was about two years ago.
11:10I was actually giving a talk for the
11:11Behavior and Brain Research Foundation,
11:13basically talking about some of the
11:14work that we're doing in the lab and
11:16rodent models and trying to again,
11:17translate things into clinical populations.
11:20So, you know,
11:21I inherently I thought that might be
11:22something that would encourage people,
11:23but I didn't expect people to
11:25be encouraged the way
11:26they were encouraged.
11:27So after that talk,
11:28someone actually emailed me and
11:30said that hearing me talk about the
11:32behaviors that we study in the rodents,
11:34basically where the rodents
11:35will self administer substances,
11:36they'll display relapsed behavior,
11:38they'll display withdrawal behavior,
11:40craving, increased anxiety.
11:41There was someone who said that
11:44listening to me talk about the behavior
11:46behaviors of the rats actually gave
11:49him more understanding and empathy for
11:51his son who had been navigating through
11:53substance use challenges for a while.
11:56And I think in that he was saying
11:57that now he could actually have more
11:58understanding of what was happening
12:00in the brain that was leading his
12:01son to behave in different ways.
12:02Now, I was fully expecting him to say that,
12:04oh, I got really excited about the
12:05clinical interventions that are coming,
12:07but no hearing about rats
12:09helped him understand his son.
12:10So not something that I expected whatsoever,
12:13but really facilitated for me that
12:15importance of really talking about
12:17these things in public settings.
12:19I've also had colleagues who have joined
12:21me on the podcast for psychiatrists and
12:23who have really emphasized this as well,
12:24who said it's so important for basic
12:26scientists to be able to continue to talk
12:27about what's happening in the brain.
12:29How much that's giving her patients
12:31hope to have a better understanding
12:32of what's happening in the brain,
12:34but then also decreasing the stigma.
12:35So if family members have a better
12:37appreciation for some of the
12:38components that actually lead to
12:39the changes in behavior,
12:40Not that that's the only piece in of itself.
12:42That was also an
12:43important context for them as well.
12:46I'll say the other thing that's given
12:47me hope is some of the events that
12:49we've been able to do over time. Again,
12:50I talked about being a background person,
12:52so I'm always wanted to be like,
12:54let me facilitate other
12:55people's conversations.
12:56But every once in a while,
12:57actually pretty frequently,
12:58I'm forced to kind of step into those roles.
13:01So I had a chance to actually interact.
13:03This is about six or seven years
13:05ago with a with a hip hop artist
13:07who's one of few Grammys had written
13:09New York Times bestselling book.
13:10And I'd met him through a mutual
13:12friend and could tell that he also had
13:14a passion about this type of mental
13:15health and talked about in his music.
13:17And so we actually brought him here
13:19to campus in 2018 where we had a town
13:21hall conversation on the main campus.
13:23It was Co sponsored by the chaplain's office.
13:25We also coordinated with Kim Goff
13:26Cruz's office of the Office of Student
13:28Life and really had a cross section of
13:30people across campus who came to that,
13:32undergrads, grad students,
13:33professional students, administrators,
13:34and a lot of people said they had never
13:37seen anything like that on campus before.
13:39Now.
13:39The hip hop artist Lecrae was really
13:41vulnerable with his story.
13:42And it just kind of facilitated
13:44an atmosphere in the room where
13:45people were sharing things.
13:46I would not expect people to
13:48share in a room of 200 people,
13:49but I think they had that
13:51connection with him.
13:51He could actually see everybody on the stage.
13:53We had students that were involved.
13:55We also partnered with the Black Church at
13:57Yale and you heard people saying things like,
13:59I've been waiting for this
14:00conversation for a long time,
14:02or this is the most powerful event that
14:04I've been to since I've been on campus.
14:06And to hear people talk vulnerably
14:07about feeling like they weren't
14:08being their true selves.
14:09There was an individual with bipolar
14:11disorder who was sharing his experience
14:12and how he was in the band with
14:14two other people with bipolar and
14:16how he's navigating through the
14:17spiritual components of that and the
14:19mental health components of that.
14:20So it was just a very eye opening
14:22experience and really showed me the
14:23power of having these types of conversations.
14:25And we were able to follow up on
14:27that with a similar conversation
14:28in New York City in 2019 where
14:30800 people actually showed up to
14:31have these conversations.
14:32And again, people were saying,
14:33I've been waiting 20 years for
14:35these types of conversations.
14:36So I've had a lot of opportunity
14:38to really see how much of A desire
14:39and a need there's been for people
14:41to continue these conversations.
14:42And every time people are in the room,
14:44it seems like they get a lot out of it.
14:46So I really felt a push to try
14:48and continue to do these things.
14:49When the pandemic hit,
14:50there was an opportunity to kind
14:52of increase the scope of
14:53that through the podcast.
14:54And again, going back to my my nature,
14:56I wanted to be in the background.
14:58I didn't want to to run it.
14:59I wanted to facilitate it,
15:00bring in all these different people.
15:01And I basically had a mentor who kept saying,
15:03why, why don't you want to host it?
15:04And I really didn't have any
15:05good reason other than not
15:07wanting to be in the spotlight.
15:08So again, that was something that
15:09gave me a lot of hope as I was able
15:11to start those conversations and to
15:12really learn from a lot of the folks who
15:14were on the podcast.
15:16So I'll just wrap up to say that, you know,
15:19I've talked a lot about frustration.
15:20I've talked a lot about hope.
15:21I feel like basically at the
15:23intersection of those two really
15:24led me to a place of opportunity,
15:26opportunity to decide how to kind
15:28of navigate those two tensions
15:29and how to move things forward.
15:32And for me, it's been really important
15:33to be able to do that in community.
15:35I talked about my lab group often.
15:36If I'm giving a slide,
15:37I'll sometimes show pictures of a lab
15:39group in different communities we've
15:40been able to interact with at the
15:42onset because I feel like community
15:43is at the key of what we're doing.
15:45I often encourage people think about
15:46the communities they work with,
15:48the communities they serve,
15:49where they're located, where that's here,
15:51the medical school in New Haven,
15:53in Connecticut, in the US and globally.
15:55Then also think about just all those
15:57different touch points that we have.
15:59One thing I'll leave you with
16:00before we go into the Q&amp;A,
16:01it's also been, in a sense,
16:03surprising to me to see how people
16:05have actually responded to that.
16:07So I've been able to speak in
16:08lots of different venues where
16:09that's faith communities.
16:10I spoke to a Bar Association,
16:12I spoke to all superintendents in
16:13Connecticut at one point at the conference.
16:15And so kind of being able to step
16:16into these different worlds,
16:18as it were,
16:18and have people really resonate with these
16:20topics has been really gratifying as well.
16:22But I gave a talk at a science conference,
16:25a Gordon conference.
16:25So for any of you who know,
16:27those are really specialized
16:28conferences around specific topics.
16:29And I was kind of talking about
16:31this whole community aspect.
16:32I showed my first slide with,
16:33you know, all the people in the lab,
16:34the communities we've worked with,
16:36and we're just talking about kind
16:37of the importance of holistic
16:39approaches to mental health,
16:41thinking about aspects like neuroscience,
16:42psychology, psychiatry, faith practices.
16:44And then people actually started clapping
16:47after that first slide, which I,
16:49I had no idea what to do with that.
16:52I was like,
16:52am I in a church and am I in a
16:54concert or am I giving a lecture?
16:56But I think part of it was the fact
16:58that people were resonating with it
16:59and they hadn't heard that type of
17:02commentary in that context before.
17:03And so I think other people felt
17:05very encouraged to see that work
17:06being done and to actually come up
17:08and tell me about ways they have
17:09been doing similar work as well.
17:11So I'm kind of giving you, you know,
17:13the the behind the scenes kind of
17:15journey of how I've gotten to this place.
17:17But one thing I will say,
17:18just in closing,
17:19I think it's important again,
17:20to put things in context.
17:21There's obviously been a lot that's
17:23happened at our community at Yale
17:24the last few days going back into
17:26the weekend with the protests,
17:27with all the different perspectives and
17:30different details and different facts,
17:32I'll call them, that have been
17:34sent out or seen, you know,
17:35shown on media and things like that.
17:37And so obviously it's a
17:38challenging situation,
17:39but I think it also reminds me and
17:40reminds us of the importance of really
17:42trying to grapple with things as a community.
17:44Not that there are any easy answers,
17:46but one thing that we've tried to be very
17:48intentional about in our group, in our team,
17:50is creating space for these conversations.
17:52But then also trying to do that in
17:54a way we can do that respectfully,
17:56not assuming that everybody will,
17:58everybody will agree,
17:59but also making sure that we can
18:00actually listen to each other with
18:02empathy and with understanding,
18:04actually move things forward.
18:05So I just thought that was
18:06important to stay just, again,
18:07with everything that's going on on this
18:09campus and to know that even though
18:10we may be doing business as usual,
18:12many of us may not be feel like
18:13we're as business as usual.
18:15Things that are in our minds may have
18:16family members in other parts of the
18:18world that are more acutely affected.
18:19And so I think it's really important to
18:21acknowledge that even though that can
18:22be a tension because sometimes people
18:24feel like we're talking about too much,
18:25we're not talking about it enough.
18:27There's no easy answer.
18:28But in the sense of just the
18:30importance of community,
18:30I always think it's good to put
18:32that in context as well.
18:33So I think I will stop there.
18:35Thank you to all of you for
18:37listening to that introduction.
18:38Thanks to those of you online.
18:39And then looking forward to our
18:40next part of the conversation.
19:00Yeah, there's Mike. OK,
19:03so I have to. Oh, is it OK, great.
19:06OK, that was wonderful. Thank you.
19:10So something that really struck
19:12me when you were talking,
19:14I guess there are two things to kind
19:16of to preface some of the questions.
19:17One, I really want to contextualize what
19:20you're saying and your journey within the
19:23scope and the framework of leadership, OK.
19:27And so something that really struck me,
19:30one thing that we talk about a
19:31lot at the Child Study Center is
19:33the idea of service leadership.
19:34And what really struck me is how as
19:37a leader of this journey that you're
19:40describing, it's you saw a need,
19:41you responded to a need,
19:42you saw a need, you responded to a need,
19:44and the needs got more complex, right?
19:48But you kept responding to them and
19:51trying to pull them all in in your response.
19:54So what was that like, right,
19:58to not go out with a vision
20:00necessarily and and impose it,
20:01but to keep yourself open and
20:04responsive and not necessarily
20:06know what the end point would be?
20:09It wasn't easy.
20:10I'll just have to say that.
20:12And you probably heard that as I
20:13was alluding to just my pension
20:15to try and stay in the background.
20:17So I think an important piece of it
20:18was I had good mentors who could point
20:20those things out to me and help me at least.
20:22Acknowledge that,
20:23but I also try not to rush into things.
20:26So some things I was actually sitting
20:28with for a few months or a year and
20:30kind of making steps along the way.
20:33I think the other piece of it,
20:34so I heard a sermon probably 15 years
20:35ago where the pastor was talking about
20:38finding your passion and paying attention
20:39to the things that irritate you.
20:41So I think that was probably,
20:42you probably noticed that in my comments,
20:44the things that frustrated me and
20:45irritated me then kind of showed me,
20:47OK, this is where my passion is.
20:49And so I had to reconcile that
20:51and actually think about ways
20:53to take steps to address those.
20:54But then also in a weird practical sense,
20:57I think part of it was also seeing
20:59high profile individuals who are
21:01putting value on the things that I was
21:04passionate about me expecting them to
21:06run with it because they had a platform,
21:09but them waiting on me to direct them.
21:12And so that basically forced me to get
21:13out of my I want other people to do it
21:15and to lead because if I didn't lead,
21:17then the things wouldn't actually
21:18move forward.
21:20Interesting. And,
21:21and how does that awareness,
21:23right, that sort of responsivity,
21:26how has that in turn informed
21:28how you are still running your
21:30lab and doing science and working
21:32within like academic medicine
21:34at at the highest levels?
21:36Yeah. So I, I mean,
21:37I'm also trying to be a lifelong learner.
21:40And I think that also goes
21:43back to personality as well.
21:44I'll, I'll put a little,
21:45it's going to seem like a shameless plug,
21:47but there's some context to it as well.
21:48So I was on a podcast that came out
21:50last week called Where You're From.
21:52And basically it ties narratives to people's
21:55experiences from different faith communities.
21:57And so when I was growing up,
21:58I didn't have this.
21:59What's the best way to say it?
22:01I'm here as a professor at Yale,
22:02but that was not the trajectory
22:04you would have expected because
22:05so just to put some constant,
22:07I'll get back to your question.
22:08My parents actually came
22:09here from West Africa,
22:10from Ghana in the 70s.
22:12They both went to medical school in
22:13Ghana and met there but sacrificed a
22:15lot to actually be here in the States.
22:16When they had me as their oldest child.
22:18I basically went the in stream of the
22:20direction some type of rebellion or
22:21something where I basically told them.
22:23I remember sitting with them in
22:24middle school and saying as long as
22:26I did better than one other person
22:28in the class I was completely fine.
22:30Which wasn't good if like,
22:31so if I got it, if I got AD on
22:33something and someone else failed,
22:34I was like, I'm good.
22:37So the host actually pitched this
22:38to me because there are other
22:39things that happened as well.
22:41Who said,
22:41it's almost like I had this rebellion
22:43against what people expected of me.
22:44So if I have high achieving parents,
22:46I'm going to work.
22:47It's like you were excellent at being second.
22:50Like it takes effort to be the
22:52second worst in the class.
22:53Like you have to actually kind
22:55of position yourself.
22:56So I say all this saying,
22:57so I had I had this kind of
22:59penchant towards excellence.
22:59That's not always in a good way,
23:02other ways where it was better.
23:03So I remember I went to Duke for undergrad.
23:05We were living in a predominantly wide area
23:06and I remember a Superintendent being like,
23:08oh, well, that's a really hard school,
23:09I don't know if you can get in there.
23:11So then I, I had that same reaction,
23:13but went the other extreme.
23:15So I say all that to say that often
23:17times when I get to a certain level of
23:20learning with something that's like,
23:21I'm looking for the next challenge
23:23to kind of come up along the way.
23:25So granted,
23:25it's a accommodation 'cause I
23:27like the challenge,
23:28but I don't like being the point person.
23:29So sometimes that is a
23:31challenge in and of itself.
23:32So part of this when I started the podcast
23:34was having conversations with like
23:36political scientists or political pundits or,
23:39you know,
23:39other clinician or clinicians
23:40and things and feeling like,
23:42oh,
23:42this has really stretched me because
23:43I do not know their content.
23:45And bringing my academic mindset to be like,
23:47I have to be an expert on this
23:48topic before I can host them,
23:49which is nonsensical.
23:51So having people say no,
23:52just act like an audience member and
23:55try to ask them what you would think
23:57your audience would try and ask them.
23:59And so I think that has helped me
24:00to navigate into those spaces.
24:02But it also goes back to your
24:03question because it forces me to
24:05continue to learn to learn how
24:06to be a better conversationalist,
24:08to learn how to be a better listener.
24:10I can divulge it.
24:11You were coaching me as I was in this
24:14transition process and you had sent
24:15me some helpful YouTube videos from
24:17from lifelong journals who actually
24:19talked a lot about the power of listening.
24:22And so for me,
24:23listening has been really important
24:24to inform everything that we do.
24:26So they give me one practical story.
24:27Sean Astin had actually come
24:29on the podcast at one point.
24:30He was the the son of Patty Duke,
24:32who was living with bipolar,
24:33wasn't called bipolar at a time,
24:35but talking through her whole
24:37experience and talking about the
24:38way that she always felt like people
24:39were telling her she was suffering.
24:40You're suffering with this,
24:41you're suffering with this.
24:42And just the shift in Word choice to
24:44talk about how she was navigating
24:46through with bipolar and could
24:48still have good mental Wellness.
24:50I've had some of those conversations
24:51with people in my lab and it's
24:53actually changed how we've written
24:54our papers and the language that
24:55we use in our introduction.
24:57So that's just one example of many
24:58things like that where all the
25:00different pieces kind of inform each other.
25:02And even though these are technically
25:03quote UN quote separate, the academic,
25:05the public facing and the diversity,
25:07equity, inclusion,
25:08they all intersect and that can
25:09actually learn from each of those and
25:11we can learn as a community together
25:12to inform all those pieces together.
25:14That's a long answer.
25:15Your question was short.
25:16It was a great answer though.
25:17But but has there ever been?
25:20So I, I think about, you know,
25:23in academic medicine there,
25:25just like in any field,
25:26there's language that we use,
25:27there's a way that we,
25:28there's a culture and there's
25:29a way that we behave, right.
25:30So have you faced any pushback in
25:33bringing in sort of the culture
25:36of other spaces into academic
25:39medicine or vice versa? Not
25:41as much as I would have expected,
25:42but I think I've also tried to be
25:45intentional about doing my homework
25:46before I go to any specific place.
25:48So obviously that's easy to do in an
25:50academic setting because that's my
25:52day-to-day language where I live and breathe.
25:54But speaking in different places,
25:56even when I'm speaking to a group of lawyers,
25:58trying to understand what are the
26:00challenges they've gone through,
26:01what are the opportunities and
26:02learning about the culture and asking
26:04a lot of questions so that when I
26:06get into that place, I'm informed.
26:07And I always try to be really
26:09intentional about having conversations
26:11and not didactic lectures.
26:13So another story.
26:14So years back,
26:15my wife actually started a series
26:17called The STEM Coffee Hour in our
26:19local library and had me come and speak
26:21about the neuroscience of addiction.
26:23There were a lot of folks in
26:26that event who came from a,
26:28a recovery house basically who
26:29wanted to just hear about that.
26:30They were involved in the faith
26:31committee we were involved in,
26:32but I was really intentional about not
26:33going in and being the quote UN quote,
26:35expert to share all this
26:36didactic information.
26:37So it really was kind of a
26:38back and forth conversation.
26:39I mean,
26:40I did share about the neuroscience
26:41of addiction,
26:41but I also listened to them share
26:43about their experiences with medic,
26:44medication assisted treatment,
26:45things that worked well for them,
26:47things they hated,
26:48things they felt like their clinicians
26:49told them they weren't listening about.
26:50And so we had kind of this dynamic
26:52back and forth where I think it
26:54opened up spaces for me to lead
26:56in a collaborative manner,
26:58not to lead in a dogmatic or didactic manner.
27:01And then there were people who came
27:02to that saying when they walked in,
27:04they thought, oh, well, you know,
27:05addiction isn't really an illness.
27:06This is something I did to myself,
27:08which I acknowledge on the one hand,
27:10you have to use before you can
27:12become addicted.
27:12But they also said that they had
27:14left that place having a better
27:15understanding for how their long
27:17term substitutes has actually
27:18impacted their brain and how they
27:19could get to a new normal.
27:21So again,
27:21I feel like I haven't gotten
27:23this much pushback or vitriol as
27:25I would have expected.
27:26But I think part of that has me been
27:28me trying to be intentional about
27:30the framing of those conversations
27:32and almost even a sense building
27:34up some psychological trust in
27:35the room and the spaces,
27:36which obviously takes intention.
27:37I also takes a lot of work as well.
27:40Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that,
27:43that absolutely makes a lot of sense.
27:46So one other piece.
27:47Well, I'm sure there are more
27:49than just one other piece,
27:51but this question of faith.
27:53So, you know, we were talking about
27:54when you were preparing this talk
27:56and you used the phrase there that,
27:58you know, you're a man of faith.
27:58And I've heard you say that before.
28:00So what do you mean by that?
28:02And what role does that play?
28:05I think.
28:06All right.
28:08Thanks, everybody.
28:09Judge,
28:10can someone mute? Yeah,
28:13someone on Zoom, please. Mute.
28:15So I think from there's many different
28:17ways I could answer that question.
28:19So I'd say my faith as a Christian is
28:21something that's core to who I am.
28:23It also impacts how I think
28:25about my work and how I am,
28:27how I see other people in the sense
28:30that I hope that helps me lead with
28:33compassion and with empathy and with
28:34grace in any situation that I'm in.
28:36All the different communities
28:37I've talked about,
28:38but I've also said in other places,
28:39I feel like I have the opportunity
28:41to study God's creation.
28:42And so that impacts how I
28:44actually do my research as well,
28:46but also impacts how I think about
28:47how we think about mental health
28:48and all the different tools that we
28:50can use to address our our health,
28:52mental health.
28:52And so I'm speaking in faith
28:54communities and in churches.
28:55I also talk about my perspective that
28:56we have lots of different tools that
28:58God has allowed us to design, develop.
29:00And so it really is a framing
29:02of everything that I do.
29:04But I'll also say just, you know,
29:06in the day-to-day kind of shapes how I
29:07really try to think about what I'm called,
29:09what I feel like I'm called to do.
29:11That's a phrase people often
29:12use in face settings,
29:13which can sound a little bit abstract.
29:15But I feel like one of the things I'm
29:16called to do is to serve in different ways.
29:18And I think that gets back to what
29:19you were talking about early on,
29:21that there's a need.
29:22And I feel like I'm called
29:23to serve in specific ways.
29:25Grant,
29:25there has to be some discernment
29:26there because that's another
29:27topic that comes up all the time.
29:29Being called doesn't mean that
29:30you respond to every single crisis
29:31that comes in front of you,
29:33especially as a leader.
29:34And that's something that I've
29:35also had to learn to adjust and
29:37not saying yes to everything,
29:38but basically,
29:38I'd say that faith is kind of the
29:40overarching framework for everything I do.
29:42So, yeah. So, so that process of discernment,
29:46how did that develop and how do
29:48you know now what to where to lead
29:51and where to where to hang back? I
29:53don't know that I do know.
29:55That's why I'm laughing.
29:56But I think that's been a process over time.
29:58Some of that is trial and error.
30:00Some of it was the feedback that you
30:01gave me as we were doing the coaching.
30:03Some of that's having mentors who have
30:05tried to point things out to me as well,
30:08and some of this just practical.
30:09So basically saying, so for instance,
30:12when I started the lab,
30:13when there were three of us,
30:14I was in the lab doing experiments,
30:16doing surgeries,
30:16all those types of things.
30:18I can't physically do that
30:19anymore unless I never sleep.
30:21So being willing to let go of
30:22some things and realize that in
30:24order to say yes to one thing,
30:25I might have to say no to something else,
30:28or I might have to delegate something else,
30:29or I might have to change my leadership
30:32structure within my lab, for instance.
30:33Or even in terms of how I go about engaging
30:37with different requests that I get.
30:39So I mean,
30:40even practical things like being
30:41a person who is so focused on
30:43relationship and wanting to
30:44personally respond to every e-mail,
30:46but then realizing that that's not practical.
30:48If I'm getting all these
30:49requests all the time,
30:50it can be helpful to have someone
30:52who can represent me and respond
30:53for me and then getting over the
30:55guilt of not responding to the
30:56e-mail and then realizing that
30:58people are actually fine with that.
30:59So it's a learning process,
31:00but some of it's trial and error.
31:01I mean,
31:02there have been things I've said yes to
31:03that while I'm in the middle of them,
31:04I'm thinking, oh,
31:05I really should not said yes to this.
31:08So that helps me the next time if
31:10it's a similar request, realizing,
31:11OK, let me take a little bit more.
31:14What's the right word?
31:15Courage isn't the right word,
31:17but that's what it feels like,
31:18courage to actually say no when I
31:19should say no so I can say yes to
31:21other things. So not perfected yet.
31:24Yeah,
31:25it's a work in progress for everybody. OK.
31:28So going back to 'cause we are obviously
31:31here in an academic medical context,
31:34so advancement, promotion, tenure,
31:40how has that those how have those questions?
31:46I'm trying to think how to phrase
31:48this question fed into your openness
31:51to doing non work that might not
31:55traditionally count for that.
31:57How have you skirted that or you know,
32:00navigated that?
32:01Yeah, good question.
32:02So I'm going to decide how I'm going
32:04to to phrase it in terms of responses
32:06because I know this is recorded,
32:07which is completely fine.
32:10But I said that with a copy.
32:12Turn it off. Yeah.
32:13So I think I've tried to be intentional,
32:16but there are also circumstances
32:17of a change of time.
32:18So this is something I've
32:19shared in different settings.
32:20I was actually,
32:20I'm a fellow at the at Trumbull College.
32:23I was sharing with some of the
32:24faculty about this last week as well.
32:26But I think part of it goes
32:27back to that rebellion side,
32:28which I talked about before,
32:30not in the same way it was
32:30when I was a middle schooler,
32:31thankfully.
32:32I probably wouldn't be sitting here
32:34but not wanting to be pitching A
32:37holed into a certain expectation,
32:39but then also knowing there are
32:41certain things that need to be done.
32:43So obviously I still have a passion for
32:45the research and the neuroscience and
32:47there are certain scientific questions
32:48that I would like to see answered.
32:50But I've also talked to people who
32:52have done lots of high profile
32:54papers over the years and have
32:56acknowledged how time consuming
32:57those types of endeavors have been.
33:00Not to say that if that doesn't happen,
33:02I wouldn't be pleased or feel like
33:04we're moving the field forward,
33:05but also having a realistic expectation.
33:08There's certain things that I can't
33:10do on the academic side and continue
33:12to do on the public facing side and
33:14continue to do in my diversity of
33:17inclusion leadership all the same
33:18level because I'm only one person.
33:20I'm working with teams,
33:21but there has to be kind of a choice about
33:24what are the things that I truly value.
33:26And so some of that should be inherent,
33:28but some of that I've also gotten from
33:30just working with different communities.
33:31So even as I was talking about
33:32the event that we did in New York,
33:34to see the way that people respond to that,
33:37I got to a point where I was able,
33:39I had the,
33:40I guess in the sense the the luxury or
33:42the privilege to decide that I was not
33:45necessarily going to pursue the loopholes.
33:47I needed to get to certain state,
33:48but just do the work that needs to
33:50be done because it needs to be done.
33:52And I was fortunate in the sense that
33:54at that time there were other schools
33:57that were also invested and involved.
33:59So I was privileged enough to say,
34:01I think this needs to be done and I
34:04have a position to do it here at Yale,
34:07but even if it's not supported here,
34:10there's other places I could do it.
34:12And so that that's just kind of
34:13the reality of the situation.
34:15I know that not everybody can be
34:16in that place, but I felt like,
34:18and then thankfully,
34:19Yo has been supportive of that.
34:21But that kind of internal shift
34:24in my approach
34:25gave me the intellectual freedom to actually
34:27pursue the things that need to be pursued.
34:29And also changed some of my
34:31relationships with leadership as well.
34:33Because I noticed in myself that I
34:35stopped going into certain meetings,
34:37presenting my CV and waiting for feedback.
34:39And I more so said,
34:40these are the things that are important,
34:42these are the things that we're doing.
34:43And then I actually started
34:44to receive more mentorship.
34:45So I would say it was,
34:46it was mutual in that sense,
34:48but there was a lot of
34:50intentionality that came with that.
34:50And some of that was circumstances because
34:52I was for time at the times I was wondering,
34:54would I be able to do that here?
34:55But then again,
34:57seeing the responses from the
34:58public and from other institutions
34:59gave me that freedom to say, OK,
35:01this is important, it needs to be done.
35:03And I have the freedom to
35:04be able to pursue that.
35:06Yeah. And I, and I think it also
35:09speaks very much to the idea
35:11of doing values driven work,
35:13which is something that we've started
35:14to really talk about internally,
35:16the child study center and at the
35:17the School of Medicine that it's not
35:19just about tell me how high to jump,
35:20I'll jump even higher.
35:22But it's actually about, no,
35:23you're, you're at the center of
35:24your career at directing things.
35:26And how do you bring yourself forward and
35:29then negotiate right with the larger system.
35:31That's what I'm hearing a
35:32lot and what you're saying.
35:33Yeah, Yeah. OK.
35:34So one piece we haven't really
35:35talked that that much about.
35:37I've got just a couple more questions
35:39before I open it up to all of you.
35:41One piece is the DEI piece.
35:44So I'm hearing it the strand
35:46throughout everything,
35:47but can you share a little
35:48bit more about the,
35:50the like the nature of your work,
35:52how you got into that work at at Yale,
35:56etcetera?
35:58Good question. I'm going to try
36:00and keep it succinct cause part of
36:01that has been over a span of years.
36:03So I think part of that is my
36:05internal drive to really mentor.
36:08And so that's always been a
36:09passion of mine because I feel
36:11like I had really good mentors.
36:13Actually, I've still been in
36:14touch with my undergrad mentor.
36:15I saw him when I gave a talk.
36:16So I went to do for undergrad.
36:17I gave a talk at North in North
36:19Carolina last year and got to
36:20catch up with him a little bit.
36:21And so to see his long term
36:23investment in me was really
36:25endearing and just to his passion.
36:26And you know, he's been trying to
36:27recruit me back for the last 15 years,
36:29which I think it's just an
36:30inheritance to a former mentor,
36:32but perspective wise.
36:33So I remember telling people, oh, you know,
36:35I've been in touch with him for 25 years.
36:37I was on a Zoom call a couple
36:39years ago with Jones Stein's and
36:40she was talking about going to
36:42I think University of Michigan.
36:43And she was saying, oh,
36:45I got to catch up with my first grad
36:46student and we've been in touch for 50 years.
36:48And I was like, OK,
36:49my 25 years is nothing.
36:52But it was really nice and
36:53endearing to hear that same kind
36:55of long term relationship that
36:56she was talking about as well.
36:58So to get back to your question,
37:00I feel like I've done a lot of
37:01mentorship just in general,
37:02but especially with students
37:04from underrepresented backgrounds
37:05when they've come here and said,
37:06oh,
37:07I didn't see many people that look like me,
37:09it was really helpful to be
37:10able to connect with you.
37:10And so they'll be able to do that
37:12informally with students has been ongoing,
37:14but I've also done a lot
37:15of formal things as well.
37:16So there's a group here
37:18called the Collective,
37:18which is out of the biological and
37:21biomedical sciences PhD program.
37:22They had a previous iteration called
37:23the Yale Minority Science Network.
37:25I was able to kind of serve as
37:26a faculty consultant for them.
37:28I've had different students that
37:29have come through my lab,
37:30different summer programs.
37:31I've also been involved in some of
37:33the things at the post doctoral level.
37:35You all may be familiar with
37:36belonging at Yale.
37:37I was really fortunate to be involved
37:38in some of the initial conversations
37:40in that with Kim Goff Cruz and the
37:42working group that Dean Lattimore
37:43had allowed me to participate in.
37:45And then also obviously the
37:46role that I have now,
37:47which is more faculty facing,
37:49but basically it's a passion that has
37:52become more formal over the years,
37:55more formal over the years.
37:56And so it's been helpful for me
37:58to be able to be involved.
38:00A big piece of that was the Minority
38:02Organization for Attention Expansion or more,
38:04which you mentioned.
38:05And Cindy Crusto,
38:06Dr.
38:06Cindy Crusto,
38:07who's one of the founders of Moore,
38:09had asked me at some point, well,
38:10what's something you'd like to see more,
38:11do more of, for lack of a better word?
38:13I said mentorship and said, oh,
38:15why don't you come on board and lead
38:16some of our mentorship initiatives.
38:18So again, someone who was a a
38:20supporter sponsor in that way,
38:22which gave me a way to kind
38:23of start to facilitate that,
38:25but then also to get involved in leadership
38:27because we meet regularly with a Dean.
38:29And so part of it has been
38:30in evolving over time,
38:31but part of it has been a passion
38:33and having the structure in place
38:35through collaboration that I've been
38:37able to facilitate that as well.
38:38But hopefully that gets a little
38:39bit of an overview.
38:40There's a lot of detail I
38:41could go into as well.
38:41But
38:42yeah, but but just that it's organic
38:44to some of the work that you're doing.
38:46Yeah. OK, all right, so final
38:48question for me and then whoever
38:50else has questions, please ask.
38:54So one of the values for the School of
38:59Medicine, one of the five core values that
39:01leaders should have or should, you know,
39:04aspire to have 21st century leaders.
39:06I'm not even saying the sentence correctly.
39:07The 21st century leaders at the School
39:09of Medicine should aspire to have.
39:11There we go. Is the idea of
39:13generativity or or giving back.
39:15So if you were to, you know,
39:18often times in coaching there,
39:19it's something called like
39:20the legacy exercise.
39:20Looking back at your career,
39:22what do you hope that your biggest,
39:23you know, contributions will be?
39:25So in that spirit of
39:28generativity and giving back,
39:30what do you what do you
39:31hope to leave behind?
39:33Wow,
39:35I take some thought.
39:36I'm impressed with the question.
39:40Maybe the people. I mean,
39:42one thing that comes to mind is that
39:44people would say that I was generous
39:46with my time and also with the
39:49knowledge that I was able to acquire,
39:52not just to kind of keep it for myself,
39:54but to share with others in a way
39:56they could empower them as well.
39:58And so getting back to the hip Hop Rs,
39:59I mentioned Lecrae at one point
40:01when he was on the podcast.
40:02He said he feels like academia
40:04has all this information,
40:05but we've taken the megaphone and like,
40:08pointed it at ourselves and like
40:11nothing is coming out the other end.
40:12So I think that really stuck with me.
40:15And I was already trying to do that,
40:16but really making sure that we
40:18can actually communicate what we
40:20do in a way that helps others,
40:21even in ways that aren't expected.
40:23So I referenced that story about
40:24talking about behaviors in the rat.
40:25That was not my plan,
40:28but that was still something
40:29that stuck with that individual.
40:30And so being able to continue
40:32to do those things.
40:33And I guess part of it,
40:34this will sound a little bit more religious,
40:36but kind of just being faithful in
40:38my calling and in the privileges
40:40that I've been given to not just
40:42keep them for myself or my lab even,
40:44but really pass those on to broader
40:46communities and to which includes
40:48academic communities as well.
40:52Wonderful. Thank you. Great.
40:55OK, who has questions,
41:04Larry? Yes, Larry,
41:07that was really wonderful. Thank you.
41:09One of the things that
41:11kind of struck me as when you you said,
41:12wait a minute, I got to be careful,
41:13this is being recorded.
41:14And it just touched something
41:16in me when you said it.
41:19And, and I think often about
41:21things like what holds us back?
41:23What holds me back,
41:24what holds us back from doing
41:26the things that we want to do.
41:28And something I've
41:29been thinking a lot about is
41:33I'm an old guy.
41:34I've been around a while. You know,
41:36I used to be able to make a mistake.
41:38I'm sorry, what'd you say?
41:40Thank you. Thank you.
41:42Thank you very much.
41:42But we used to be able to make mistakes.
41:44And then I'd say, hey, you know,
41:46I didn't exactly mean it that way.
41:49Can I, can I have a Mulligan?
41:51Can I redo this?
41:52And you'd say, sure.
41:53What, what did you mean?
41:55And and you can only do that
41:57now with very trusted friends.
42:01And I think it holds us back.
42:04I feel sometimes it does me, you know,
42:06I, I felt a little bit of that
42:08just before I asked this question.
42:09Like, I don't want this.
42:10I don't want to make a mistake because
42:12I can't explain it and redo it.
42:15You know, it's videoed,
42:17it's on social media.
42:19It's, you know, that's it.
42:21What's your thoughts about that?
42:23I mean, how do we think out loud?
42:24How do we think together?
42:25How do I ask you what you
42:27really meant by that without
42:29causing hurt and harm?
42:32Yeah,
42:32that's a great question.
42:33So just to repeat it for those online.
42:35So this tension of not being able to
42:37make mistakes when we are talking
42:39with each other or asking things
42:41and how we can actually move forward
42:43and be able to have those rooms
42:45for mistakes and actually I guess
42:47make an impact in a sense too.
42:49I think it's a great question.
42:50It's something that I've
42:52thought about quite a bit,
42:54and I think there's different layers to it.
42:56So some of that I mentioned, I guess,
42:58within the lab group and feeling
43:00like I was trying with mistakes I
43:02made in my own leadership to create
43:04a culture within the lab group
43:06where people could learn how to
43:08have dialogues across difference,
43:10which I know has been a really key
43:12emphasis for places like Dartmouth.
43:14And then being able to kind of
43:16work through the hurt that comes
43:17through that as well at times.
43:19I mean,
43:20that's easier to do within a
43:21group more than a small group,
43:23more difficult to do on a large platform.
43:26I mean,
43:27I think there are bigger societal pieces
43:29there around cancel culture as well.
43:31And so this actually is a question
43:33that's helpful because it also
43:34shows how I've been able to
43:35actually garner some of that from
43:37some of the conversations I've
43:38had with people on the podcast.
43:39So Michael Eric Dyson was one person
43:41who came on the podcast probably
43:43three years ago or so who I think
43:46is at Vanderbilt at the moment,
43:47but talks,
43:47you know,
43:48across the country about aspects of race
43:50and religion and different things like that.
43:53But he often time talks,
43:55often times talks about the
43:56danger of cancel culture and
43:58sometimes specifically references,
43:59I want to say Virginia,
44:01I might be getting it wrong.
44:02But one,
44:02I think this was the I think this
44:04was the governor who had gotten in
44:05trouble for doing blackface in college,
44:08who basically, you know,
44:09painted his face and done that
44:11whole character and how everybody
44:13was quick to cancel him.
44:15But what Michael Dyson pointed out is
44:17the fact that he didn't get cancelled.
44:19People actually sat down,
44:21listened,
44:22and this person has been someone who has had,
44:25who's actually made some of the
44:27most transformative changes in that
44:29state in terms of trying to have
44:31better equity for people of colour
44:34because he didn't get cancelled
44:35and because he had time to be
44:37restored and then actually use that
44:39restoration to make an impact.
44:41So from that example, I take,
44:44you know, if we don't,
44:45obviously if we don't give
44:46ourselves time to grow,
44:47we're going to lose a lot of the benefit
44:49that can come through growth as well.
44:50And I think there's a lot of things
44:52from our spiritual traditions
44:53which touches on that as well,
44:54the things you can learn through going
44:56something painful or where you made
44:58a mistake and the importance of forgiveness.
45:00And so I'm getting more towards
45:01the spiritual and philosophical,
45:02but I think it's so important.
45:04It's hard to to practically live out,
45:07but I feel like if we can do that
45:08in our own spheres of influence that
45:10hopefully that can propagate as well.
45:12And I appreciate you asking the
45:14question even as you were feeling
45:16that internal tension as well.
45:17So definitely appreciate it.
45:26I was thinking a lot about like
45:29your initial story about the
45:32person who kind of mentioned
45:34how one of her family members,
45:36she wasn't able to progress
45:38because she thought, you know,
45:39she wasn't praying hard enough and all that.
45:42Next year I'll be attending an institution
45:44that does have a religious affiliation
45:46that I don't necessarily align with.
45:48So I guess like,
45:49how do you mitigate those clients and
45:52that perspective without being like
45:55insensitive and kind of invalidating them?
45:57Yeah. So the question was how to
45:59mitigate different people's perspective
46:01in terms of if their clients,
46:03if you're not necessarily aligned
46:04with their faith tradition or this
46:07is going back to the story I shared
46:09earlier on about individual who
46:10said that her aunt wasn't getting
46:12help and wasn't was being told
46:13that she wasn't prey to her now.
46:14So basically how to kind
46:15of navigate through that,
46:16which I think is a really good question.
46:18So again, this all these questions
46:19you can see you kind of tie back to
46:22different experiences that I've had.
46:23But during the pandemic,
46:24well before the pandemic,
46:26I was on sabbatical.
46:27So I was actually spending time
46:28with clinical psychology interns at
46:30Montefiore Hospital in the Bronx.
46:32And this was something I felt
46:33like they did really well.
46:34So they're really intentional about
46:36partnering with the community.
46:38So people in the people who are going
46:40through the clinical psychology
46:41training had all different backgrounds
46:43in terms of faith traditions or
46:45those who identify as atheists,
46:46but they also knew that those they were
46:48serving also had a lot of different
46:50faith traditions and backgrounds.
46:51So we actually had intentional
46:52partnerships to spend time with
46:54different communities and learn,
46:56even just learning the language
46:57of how people talked about
46:58what they navigate through,
47:00even if it didn't necessarily align with
47:02everything that they themselves believed.
47:04It helped them build trust and also
47:06helped them gain the language to
47:08help the people they were trying
47:09to help navigate through those.
47:11So not that that's a straightforward
47:12question per SE,
47:13but it really was kind of a a partnership
47:16together that helped them navigate
47:19through Another funny story that comes up.
47:21So Doctor Charles DK,
47:22who's here in the psychiatry department,
47:24actually talked about spiritual and
47:26biological components of mental health
47:28and talked about that on the podcast.
47:30The evidence that he had found
47:31in a in a funny way.
47:33So you can actually help people.
47:34People sometimes do better
47:35when they can integrate,
47:36you know,
47:37spiritual traditions and say
47:39cognitive behavioral therapy.
47:40But it's most effective if it comes
47:42from someone who doesn't share that
47:44same faith background or trajectory,
47:46which I think speaks.
47:48There's lots of things we
47:49could speculate about that.
47:50But I think that can be helpful in this
47:52situation that you mentioned as well,
47:53that it's not that the person
47:54even has to align,
47:55but there's something about having that
47:57empathy and that understanding which
47:59actually helps people move through.
48:00So hopefully that gives you some
48:02encouragement as you're thinking
48:03about this next step as well.
48:11Thanks so much for that,
48:12That was awesome.
48:13Obviously, we're here in the Child
48:14Study Centre and we think a lot
48:16about early life experiences,
48:17developmental experiences,
48:19and you mentioned about your early
48:21mentorship experiences.
48:22Is there anything that you remember
48:23about how you cultivated that
48:25relationship with your mentor
48:27that led to being such a kind of
48:30sustained and positive relationship?
48:31And is there any advice that you
48:33give to your trainees and mentees
48:35about how to kind of cultivate
48:37positive relationships with
48:38mentors or how to seek out mentors?
48:40Yeah, that's a great question.
48:40So positive, like positive
48:42long term mentorship pieces.
48:44I would say for me,
48:46I didn't actually cultivate that
48:47with my initial mentors much,
48:48but it was a lot of his
48:50initiation and persistence.
48:51I mean, even though I made the joke
48:52about him trying to recruit me back,
48:53that shows his persistence.
48:55And that's basically how he's
48:57been in our entire relationship.
48:59So keeping those lines of communication open.
49:02There's a national conference we
49:03would usually go to and he would have
49:06basically a dinner with all of his
49:08former mentees at that conference.
49:09So I think just practically some of
49:11it is just like staying in touch and
49:14being intentional and not letting
49:15the business of life crowd that out.
49:17In terms of for my own mentees,
49:19one thing that I've tried to do is
49:21also be really intentional about that.
49:22But this also gets back to this whole
49:25aspect of communication and trying to
49:26make sure that we have really open and
49:29honest communication from day one.
49:31Because I've seen so many mentorship
49:32relationships where you have a
49:34really well-intentioned hands off
49:36mentor and a really well-intentioned
49:38hands on mentee and they're just
49:39in completely different places.
49:41So I'm one thing it would be
49:42helpful if they actually spoke that
49:43out loud and acknowledge that.
49:44So I try to have those conversations
49:46early on and say, OK, well,
49:48we're in different places.
49:49How can we compromise and actually think
49:51about what that means to move this forward?
49:53And then also,
49:54not to be negative,
49:56but I also tell people we don't like,
49:57you can decide at that point that maybe
49:59this isn't the best mentor relation
50:00for us to work in the same team.
50:02Maybe it should shift into another way.
50:03And I think sometimes we get scared
50:05to have those conversations when
50:06they're actually more productive
50:08and helpful long term.
50:09But then just think about that on
50:11several different other aspects,
50:12thinking about people's experiences
50:13and what they've gone through.
50:15I was able fortunate to host somebody
50:17who does a lot of work around trauma
50:19informed mentorship and trauma informed
50:20teaching and trauma informed care.
50:22So even acknowledging that people's
50:23experiences are going to impact
50:25the mentoring relationship,
50:26how they show up to work.
50:28So I'd,
50:28I'd say a lot of it is just intentionality,
50:30to be completely honest.
50:34Yeah, that's us.
50:36I really, I think a lot about
50:41the factors that, I don't know,
50:43limit how academic institutions
50:47share and disseminate information.
50:50And I really like the megaphone
50:52examples that look great.
50:54And I think about the
50:55position that you're in.
50:56And that's something I've always
50:58like entertained and the idea
51:00of having a platform where you
51:03can connect with people outside
51:05of like a formal relationship.
51:07And I'm kind of wondering,
51:09based on your episodes and talks,
51:12like what feedback are you getting
51:14as to which topics are people
51:17most interested in learning about?
51:18You know what, what?
51:20What is there a big appetite for
51:22just in terms of knowing how to
51:24think and what the needs are?
51:27Yeah, it's a really good question.
51:28So what people's kind of big appetite has
51:30been in the different Conversations episodes?
51:32It's hard for me to pinpoint because
51:34we've covered so many different types
51:37of topics and I feel like people pick up
51:40the stuff that's really relevant to them.
51:42So even initially, like I got some feedback
51:45that that might not be the best approach
51:48because they're people from marketing
51:49or basically like you're basically,
51:51what's the right word,
51:53like dispersing your audience.
51:55So from a marketing standpoint,
51:56you kind of want to find your
51:58niche and pursue that.
51:59But then at the same point,
52:00I had other people who said,
52:01but that's who you are.
52:02So you're just being true to who you are.
52:03So like if we have an NBA player come on,
52:06then that kind of pulls 1 cohort of people.
52:09If we have a pastor,
52:10that pulls another cohort.
52:10If we had the president of the
52:12American Psychological Association
52:13that pulled another cohort.
52:15So I've kind of just come to terms
52:17with that and been fine with it.
52:19But there have been different themes
52:21that have come up along the way.
52:23Initially I was trying to focus
52:25primarily on public audiences,
52:26which has definitely happened.
52:27But then just because of the circles I'm in,
52:30there was also pulling a lot,
52:31pulling in a lot of scientists.
52:33And my initial reaction was like,
52:34no, that's not what I'm trying to do.
52:35Why is that happening?
52:37Which sounds like a bad reaction.
52:39And it was.
52:39But then it was also helpful
52:40for me to hear from scientists,
52:42oh,
52:42this is helping me think about things
52:44that are actually impacting the science
52:46I didn't quite think about before.
52:48So I'd say probably the consistent
52:49theme has been the integration and
52:50that people have been able to think
52:52about things outside the box of what
52:54they would have thought about otherwise.
52:56And so that's been really helpful to see.
52:59And then the other thing is
53:00I think different people see
53:02themselves in different situations,
53:03in different scenarios.
53:04Because I've had people on campus
53:06who've come up to me and said,
53:07oh, this, you know,
53:08like this one episode you had on black
53:10buys representation in art and science,
53:12like that really spoke to me.
53:13Like the speaker, the artist was
53:15talking about his experience in college.
53:16I really resonated with that.
53:18Or another episode where someone
53:19will say the same thing.
53:20So in a sense,
53:21I don't actually have a good answer for that,
53:24but it's kind of different things
53:25have come up in different pockets,
53:26which I finally came to terms with
53:28saying that's fine even if the
53:30audience is quote UN quote fractured.
53:32Because in a sense that fracturing
53:34has also allowed me to speak in
53:35lots of different places.
53:36Like I mentioned the Bar Association or
53:38a group of superintendents or speaking
53:40at A at a high school or in a church,
53:43Like those are all very different types of
53:45environments. Yeah, that's awesome.
53:48How do you decide what your
53:49next episode is going to be? So
53:53some things I've kind of
53:54had in my mind for a while.
53:55So some of that has been opportunistic
53:57in terms of being connected to
53:59people that are speaking about that.
54:01Things that I just noticed when I'm
54:02kind of in general public settings.
54:04And a lot of it over time has actually
54:06been networking within the guests.
54:08This one guest will come on and say,
54:09oh, have you thought about this topic
54:11and then connect me to someone else?
54:12Or if I've gone to speak at a certain place,
54:15someone will,
54:15something will come up with that again.
54:16So like the one we have coming up,
54:18I gave, I did an event in Saint
54:21Louis about a year ago working with
54:23a counseling center that had been
54:25basically started 30 years ago out
54:27of one particular church and had
54:30really grown to be a regional kind
54:32of support network for people.
54:33So I was able to speak at that conference,
54:35meet with a lot of different people,
54:37and then also got connected with
54:39a psychiatrist who does a lot of
54:41work in the city in Saint Louis,
54:42works with a lot of kids from different
54:44backgrounds and underserved communities,
54:45does a lot around cannabis and just talking
54:48to him and kind of hearing his story.
54:50So he basically was like, if you ever want
54:52me to come and talk about these things.
54:53I mean, he's built such a,
54:55by his own definition,
54:55he says he's a quirky white guy,
54:57but he's built such a rapport
54:59amongst that place.
55:00Like the kids in that community.
55:02Is Doctor Glazer referred
55:03to him as the OG Doctor G?
55:06So like hearing stories.
55:06So some of those like when I hear those,
55:08I was like,
55:08OK,
55:08I definitely have to have this
55:09type of person on the podcast.
55:10So some of it's just opportunistic,
55:12some of it's intentional.
55:13It's a little bit of little
55:14bit of everything.
55:15So
55:20thanks.
55:22Anything else? Are
55:25there questions? And are you
55:26probably checking online just
55:27to see you're on top of things?
55:36So I was wondering if for the last
55:38minutes you care to share what your
55:40view of holistic care is 'cause
55:42we're talking a lot about, you know,
55:44including perspectives of faith and honor
55:46signs and thinking outside the box.
55:48And I was just wondering whether you could
55:50speak what you really think that has an
55:53impact on for holistic clinical. Yeah,
55:55that's a really good question.
55:56So just talking about holistic care.
55:59So for me, I really just
56:01try and globalize it.
56:02So it's not good to start a question
56:04with a like a negative answer,
56:05but I'll say what I feel like it's not.
56:07And So what it's not is 1 size fits
56:09all approaches to mental health.
56:11And that's the stuff that's
56:12always really frustrated me.
56:13And so I tried to talk about that
56:16in that perspective and to also
56:18help people think about, well,
56:19there might be something outside the box
56:20of what they were thinking about already,
56:22whether they were using one psychological
56:24practice or modality or intervention.
56:26Maybe there's another one
56:27that they could also try.
56:28And obviously people have different
56:31reservations about medication.
56:32That's something I often talk
56:34about in public science as well.
56:35It's much easier for people to think about
56:37taking an antidepressant or something
56:38from anxiety when you hear antipsychotic,
56:40that kind of evokes a different feeling.
56:43So really just I guess having people
56:46open to integrating across those and
56:48not being stuck on one approach only.
56:51And I've gotten a lot of good feedback when
56:53I've talked about that in certain groups,
56:54'cause there's always those who said, no,
56:56I haven't thought about this that way before.
56:58And there are others who
56:59come up to me and say,
57:00oh,
57:00this is really helpful to hear you kind
57:02of summarize that in one talk because
57:04it's taken me 10 years to figure it out.
57:06So people who say,
57:07oh,
57:07I've integrated medication and
57:09spiritual practices and therapy,
57:10and I've had to kind of move
57:12with those over time and see
57:13things which are more helpful.
57:15So I guess I mean,
57:15I would say kind of in that global sense.
57:18One thing I would also mention,
57:20I know we didn't talk about this as much,
57:21but I feel like some of these
57:23conversations I've been able to have
57:26have actually helped organizations
57:27move towards a more holistic approach.
57:30So the event we did in New York in 2019,
57:33the American allies get the
57:35acronym wrong ABCT,
57:37American cognitive behavioral,
57:39I
57:42can behavioral therapy associated.
57:44So the CBT, national CBT organization,
57:46basically they were,
57:47so there were a lot of mental health
57:49groups at that events that had sponsor
57:52tables and they had gotten so much
57:54feedback from participants about the
57:56importance of spiritual practice.
57:57They actually changed their database
57:59to include a box about religion
58:01or faith tradition or background.
58:03So in that sense,
58:04that was not a goal,
58:05but there were these kind of practical
58:07outcomes that came when I could see
58:09large organizations actually pivoting
58:10in terms of how they were doing things
58:12to help make things more holistic.
58:13So that's been really gratifying as well.
58:23Yes, one more yes, I'm I'm Elena Agori.
58:27I'm a psychiatry for child and adolescent.
58:30I come from Italy NA currently work
58:34in Spain and just arriving and no,
58:37I just was thinking about not
58:40only the holistic perspective,
58:43but the accessibility and the treatment.
58:46So they they recently they were
58:48they were sorry by English.
58:50They were head organization come out
58:53with the the give line and you give
58:56line the the they call psychological
58:59intervention implementation manual.
59:00And they talk about yes,
59:02a treatment is effective,
59:04but how about the accessibility?
59:07Nobody can go through the the mental
59:11health only in the environment
59:12that you we was talking with in
59:15the lab about this yesterday.
59:16So I think it's a very good point
59:19to make this odd and each I don't
59:23know what you think about this,
59:25but yeah,
59:26I would definitely agree with you.
59:27The accessibility has been a really
59:29important barrier in a lot of ways.
59:31And so that's been more difficult
59:33for me to address directly,
59:35although I'll say I've had
59:36opportunities to at least contribute
59:38to some of those conversations.
59:40So I was able to speak at the
59:42behavioral health conference out in
59:43Washington state about a year ago.
59:44And there were people who were on the
59:45ground thinking about these things,
59:46but just basically putting
59:48things in context in terms of.
59:50So they had me come and talk about
59:52mental health disparities in particular.
59:54And this is outside your question,
59:55but that was also a stretching
59:57experience because my initial
59:59academic reaction was like,
60:00I haven't studied that for 10 years.
01:00:01I can't speak about that, which,
01:00:04but then realizing that I had been
01:00:06interacting with so many different
01:00:07people who were doing that work,
01:00:08I've been in those conversations
01:00:10as an academic.
01:00:11I also knew how to do research and to at
01:00:13least build kind of a story around that.
01:00:15And so there was enough for me to
01:00:17actually go that and integrate across
01:00:19different things to help them think
01:00:20about that a little more specifically.
01:00:22But I think that really gets to the place of,
01:00:24I mean,
01:00:24there are policies that have to change.
01:00:26And so that's integrating across
01:00:28different groups as well.
01:00:30Former Congressman Patrick Kennedy
01:00:31came on the podcast and talked
01:00:32about a lot of the work that he had
01:00:33done that he's continuing to do,
01:00:35which really changed some of
01:00:36that access type of things.
01:00:38I was able to be a panelist for
01:00:39a re entry conference for those
01:00:41who are formerly incarcerated,
01:00:43who are coming back into society,
01:00:45many of whom had their first
01:00:47mental health access,
01:00:48mental health care access in prison.
01:00:50And so there's so many different
01:00:51things that need to change.
01:00:52There's no simple answer,
01:00:53but I think ultimately it takes a lot of
01:00:57collaboration between us as academics,
01:00:58working with those in political arenas,
01:01:01working in grassroots organizations,
01:01:03thinking together,
01:01:04and then actually making practical
01:01:05steps to move things forward.
01:01:06So it's a great, it's a great comment.
01:01:10Hey, we are at time.
01:01:12Thank you everybody.
01:01:13Thank you so much. Thanks
01:01:14for hosting me. Great.