Blaming Poverty on the Poor: An Analysis of the Origins and Consequences of American Antiwelfarism

November 22, 2022

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YCSC Grand Rounds November 22, 2022

Darren Barany, PhD, MPA
Professor of Sociology
LaGuardia Community College, the City University of New York

ID9172

To CiteDCA Citation Guide

00:00All right. So good afternoon, everyone.
00:04Thank you for being here today.
00:06My colleague Kieran's a
00:07little bit under the weather,
00:08so I'm going to do my best to pinch it here.
00:11So I want to thank those of you
00:13who are here in person and on
00:16zoom for today's grand rounds.
00:18I know that many of you are already
00:19connecting with your families in gratitude,
00:21and then I invite you all to reflect
00:23on doctor Mays's message this morning.
00:26I also want to let you know that
00:27our next grand rounds will feature
00:29Doctor Aaron Dunn from Harvard,
00:30and she'll be describing biological
00:32embedding of adversity. So.
00:34For those here, and for those on zoom,
00:37I also want to take a moment of
00:40silence to honor the lives sensibly,
00:42senselessly taken in Colorado Springs.
00:52The amount of hate that lives in our
00:54world is actually rather heartbreaking,
00:56and I'm saddened by safe spaces
00:59that I'm unsafe and fear that this
01:01evokes in the LGBTQ community,
01:03their parents, partners, and friends.
01:05You deserve to feel safe,
01:07and if I can be of support to you or
01:09help you connect with other supports,
01:11please know that I'm here.
01:13And so it is my pleasure to introduce
01:15you to doctor Darren Burani.
01:17He's a professor of sociology
01:19at LaGuardia Community College
01:20at City University of New York.
01:22He earned his PhD from the
01:24CUNY Graduate Center and has an
01:27MPA from Columbia University.
01:29His work has primarily focused on
01:30how special interest groups and
01:32intellectuals shape the political culture,
01:34especially in relation to welfare
01:36state policy.
01:37His most recent project explores
01:39how the food industry influences
01:41public thinking on nutrition.
01:43Public health and the environment,
01:45with a focus on the harmful consequences
01:47of industrial animal agriculture,
01:49disproportionately experienced by
01:52frontline and marginalized communities.
01:54So I've known Doctor Virani D,
01:57as I call him, for about 20 years.
02:00And my first introduction to his
02:02brilliance was when he married a
02:03dear friend of mine from high school,
02:05both because of who he chose to marry
02:08and from the conversations that we had.
02:11So for years we've engaged
02:12in deep analytical.
02:13Conversations about the world
02:15and our evolving perspectives
02:16as young adults and parents.
02:19And I was excited.
02:20It was exciting to know that he was going
02:22to publish an analysis of anything like.
02:24I was just excited because we've had
02:26so many wonderful conversations,
02:28let alone on a topic of such
02:29relevance to our center.
02:31And so at the time that it was published,
02:33I actually didn't have any way of knowing
02:35how relevant and important his work
02:37would become to our community until
02:39my role at our at the center shifted.
02:41And so as part of our commitment to DI,
02:43we're consistently.
02:44Working toward understanding how
02:45structures and systems have created
02:48and sustained narratives and policies
02:50that continue to oppress populations
02:52and that have populations that have
02:54been historically marginalized.
02:56So we've all heard the narrative of
02:58pulling oneself up by their bootstraps,
03:01but we rarely acknowledge that
03:03many have been denied access to
03:05boots in the first place.
03:07And so today,
03:07let's listen to Doctor Perini with
03:09open minds and hearts to understand
03:10how the narrative of poverty and
03:12welfare has been framed in our country,
03:14to continue to oppress and see how
03:16we're able to disrupt this narrative.
03:18And so for those who are here,
03:20we also have planned for,
03:21we noticed that every time after a speaker,
03:23people linger and want to ask more questions.
03:25So we actually did it.
03:26Plan fully this time and we'll have
03:28some vegan treats coming in and
03:30also the opportunity to continue to
03:33chat with Doctor Burani after you
03:35hear what he has to share with us.
03:37Now, Darren Doctor Virani, please join us.
03:54You're all set. You just gotta click
03:55on it first and then you can use
03:57the arrow keys. Gotcha. Oh, OK.
04:04I knew that would happen.
04:07Thank you so much, Tara,
04:08for that lovely introduction.
04:11I hope I can live up to that.
04:13But I I, I share your opinion that,
04:16you know, I think my my
04:17brightest moment of brilliance
04:18was my partner of choice, so.
04:22Who I think is watching.
04:25It's a pleasure to be here,
04:26and thank you so much for the opportunity
04:28to speak with all of you about my work.
04:30And thank you for the important work you
04:33do here at the Yale Child Study Center.
04:36You know, the title of today's talk is
04:39what I. Kind of wish the book was titled.
04:42If I could do it all over again,
04:44I probably wouldn't choose the name,
04:46the new welfare consensus, and I'll
04:48explain kind of what that term means.
04:50But this, I think,
04:51is a better characterization of
04:53where the book is coming from.
04:55You know, I did some thinking.
04:57I've never, I haven't done this.
04:59The book talk actually in in
05:02a minute as the kids say.
05:04And I've certainly never done
05:06it in a healthcare setting.
05:07So I'm really delighted to be
05:09able to do this and it, you know,
05:11it got me thinking at 1st and how
05:14this material relates directly
05:15to the work that you all do.
05:18You know,
05:18it tells a story of how intellectuals
05:20and interest groups have shaped the
05:22debate and sort of the discourse
05:24around welfare and related issues,
05:26things like family and work and
05:28personal responsibility and the role
05:29of the state in providing a minimum,
05:31you know,
05:32standard of living outside
05:33of Labor markets and such.
05:35And over a long period of time,
05:38narratives related to race
05:40and class demeaning,
05:41narratives that demonized sexual behavior
05:43attributed to poor women of color,
05:46drummed up hostility and
05:48opposition to these programs.
05:49So while it's in particular social
05:52environments that people develop a
05:54sense of what one or another program
05:56or or policy initiative does,
05:58we're crucially it's people,
06:00families,
06:00children,
06:01already subject to the cold
06:02disaffection of the market and
06:04struggling to overcome the effects.
06:06Of poverty and exploitation,
06:08who bear the brunt of punitive
06:10policy and who are demeaned by the
06:13hurtful characterizations of them.
06:15Also,
06:15I'm really glad that in recent
06:17years there's been a growth of
06:19interest in having conversations
06:21around equity and justice.
06:22So, you know,
06:23another thread connecting this,
06:24I think is how when we interrogate
06:26the origins of what we think
06:28and sometimes uncritically and
06:30unconsciously take for granted,
06:32this can help us address forms of
06:34implicit bias and how we engage
06:36with the people that we serve.
06:40All right, method to do that this time.
06:43So the investigation mainly covers
06:45the period from the interwar period,
06:47the 1930s, to the signing of the
06:50personal responsibility and Work
06:52Opportunity Reconciliation Act.
06:54Or perwira might be the most clumsy
06:56name for a piece of legislation.
06:59So and that was in 1996,
07:01but for the remainder of the talk I'll refer
07:04to it as the welfare reform bill of 1996.
07:06And you know, this period saw
07:08the sequence of legislative
07:10developments leading up to the bill.
07:12But it also,
07:13and probably more importantly,
07:15as one where an emerging social
07:17policy narrative was solidified
07:18in the public consciousness and
07:20with informal policy circles.
07:22In other words, a new welfare
07:25consensus over time had solidified.
07:28And the study traces the origins
07:29of today's political debates
07:31around things like social policy,
07:33equality, distributive justice,
07:34both between the right and and left,
07:37but also within the right and left too.
07:39As you know,
07:40there was often debates and and,
07:42you know, conflict within those
07:44those political formations.
07:45Also,
07:46and of particular interest is how a
07:48set of ideas went from the political
07:50fringe in the 1930s and 40s to
07:53mainstream thinking on welfare policy
07:55and related issues by the 1970s.
08:01So. It's hard to see, apologies.
08:04But you more or less just need to see
08:05the relationship as it goes down.
08:07And I'll explain, but the investigation
08:10mainly covers whoops, wrong part.
08:12But unlike our European counterparts,
08:14the US has not maintained
08:16an extensive safety net.
08:17You know, it's often taken for granted
08:19that this is just part of America,
08:21you know, rugged American culture,
08:22or that we're just more inclined
08:24towards self-sufficiency and hard work.
08:26Some see it as a superior arrangement,
08:28more lean than our European counterparts,
08:31but rather than uncritically.
08:32Saying that, that's just how
08:33things are in the United States,
08:35the study set out the trace of
08:37the origins of such ideology.
08:38So it sees the new welfare consensus
08:40as the product of particular historic,
08:43political, social, ideological currents.
08:45And there's many myths in the
08:48popular discourse on welfare,
08:50for example,
08:51that the United States directs a
08:53significant portion of its resources
08:55to welfare state expenditures
08:56compared to other nations.
08:57And as I said, it's a bit hard to see.
08:59But if you look at the slide,
09:00there's a list of 29 O ECD.
09:03Countries in order of the percent of
09:05their gross domestic product that they
09:07they contribute to welfare programs,
09:09and the United States is at the bottom.
09:14And on this next slide is a list
09:16of 18 OCD countries in order of
09:18per capita welfare expenditures.
09:20That is the total amount contributed
09:22towards welfare programs,
09:23but then divided by the population.
09:25And again, we see the US at the bottom.
09:29So one of the questions that
09:31inform this study is why is the
09:33United States so different,
09:34compared again to our European counterparts,
09:36with regard to prioritizing benefits
09:39and services for those most in need?
09:45So another question that informed the
09:47study was why attitudes toward welfare
09:49in the United States shifted overtime.
09:51And these tables just sort of show how,
09:54you know, opposition or support
09:56to to welfare spending and welfare
09:59policy shifts over the period.
10:01The least opposition was in the decades
10:04after FDR rolled out the Social Security Act,
10:07which was in 1935 in response
10:09to the Great Depression.
10:10And we see little opposition to
10:12welfare in 1939 and 1946, for example.
10:16Oh, and you specifically told me
10:17not to look up at the screen.
10:18Sorry.
10:20Cameras over there with 23 and 19% saying
10:23that the government should not provide
10:26for people without means of subsistence,
10:28meaning that close to 80%
10:30were in support of it.
10:31And this changes over time, as you'll see.
10:35So the 1960s.
10:36Look there,
10:38the 1960s are significant because what
10:40you see is over the course of that decade,
10:42a real shift in terms of public opposition
10:45with regard to welfare programs.
10:47So in 1961 and 64, we see respondents
10:51to the general Social Survey,
10:53and the former data was from the
10:55Roper polls from that time.
10:57And you know, over all of these decades,
11:00the wording of the questions they
11:02ask on the surveys kind of change a bit.
11:04And, you know, and depending on
11:06what it is that you're looking for.
11:07Sometimes you have to look at different
11:09opinion surveys so you know it's not perfect.
11:12Apples to apples, but it tells a story.
11:15So by the end of the 60s,
11:17forty 4 and 45% reported that
11:19too much is spent on welfare,
11:21right?
11:22Seeing more than a doubling in opposition
11:23from the beginning of that decade to the end.
11:26And what we'll kind of like focus
11:28in on the 60s in a in a bit and
11:30why that's important.
11:33By the late 1970s, in the years leading
11:35up to the election of Reagan in 1978,
11:39and 198062 and 59% respectively responded
11:42that too much was spent on welfare.
11:45And in the Clinton years,
11:46the years leading up to the
11:48welfare reform bill of 1996,
11:49sixty two and 58% responded
11:51that too much was spent.
11:53So we see that same level of
11:55opposition kind of stabilizing and
11:57that 60 ish percent number stays
11:59consistent pretty much ongoing,
12:01give or take like. 5 to 7%.
12:06Oops.
12:11That's it. So.
12:14New welfare consensus refers
12:15to a new way of thinking about
12:18welfare and related issues,
12:19and that have particular consequences.
12:22The parameters around acceptable
12:23policy discourse and legislation
12:25as a result of the emergence
12:27of a new welfare consensus have
12:29been significantly constrained,
12:30and this has produced a welfare state
12:32that had become more fiscally austere,
12:34demeaning and coercive.
12:40Now historically the attack
12:42on welfare is rooted in the
12:44conservative intellectual tradition.
12:47So the attack on the safety net was
12:50initially waged by conservative
12:51politicians and intellectuals.
12:53And this isn't meant to alienate
12:55anybody or their worldviews,
12:56but simply a way of tracing where
12:58you know where anti welfarism
13:00as an ideology comes from.
13:02So looking at how it evolved and essentially
13:04what mainstream in the United States.
13:06And to be fair,
13:07the attack on welfare
13:09definitely became a bipartisan.
13:10Effort by the 1970s and going into the 90s,
13:14after all, it was Bill Clinton,
13:15someone seen as a kind of a moderate liberal,
13:18who signed the bill into enthusiastically
13:20signed the bill into law.
13:23So many who didn't identify with
13:25conservative politics and saw themselves
13:27as moderate or pragmatic or centrist
13:29Democrats or even mild liberals would
13:31later become vociferous critics of
13:33the welfare state by the late 60s,
13:35around 6869 and going into the 70s.
13:38And this was the group that.
13:41Came to be known as the
13:43new the neoconservatives.
13:44It was a label that was used pejoratively
13:46at first, but then folks like Irving,
13:48Crystal and others kind of embraced it,
13:50and I'll go into a little bit
13:52of detail on that bit later.
13:54But it included our Irving,
13:55Crystal, Nathan Glazer, Daniel Bell,
13:58politicians like Daniel Patrick Moynihan,
14:00the late New York senator,
14:02and you know,
14:03I'll be mentioning names through the talk.
14:05I didn't list them on slides.
14:07If anyone has any questions later
14:09or wants any clarification on
14:11any of these concepts or names,
14:12please feel free in the Q&amp;A.
14:19So there's terms I'll use that are
14:21synonymous with each other and that
14:23have a particular meaning that I'd
14:24like to establish ahead of time.
14:26So economic conservatism,
14:27one of the major sort of strands
14:30of conservatism that becomes part
14:31of the new welfare consensus,
14:33will be used interchangeably in
14:35the talk and more or less means
14:37the same thing as libertarianism,
14:39laissez-faire individualism,
14:41classical liberalism, etcetera.
14:43And it might seem confusing,
14:44like how could a tradition of.
14:45Liberalism be connected to
14:47economic conservatism,
14:49and that's actually a
14:50really interesting history,
14:51and that's something we could
14:53talk about later if you want.
14:54But classical liberalism at one point
14:56used to be the term used to describe,
14:59you know,
15:00the libertarians or economic
15:01conservatives prior to the 1950s.
15:03Now for economic conservatism,
15:05the key political questions are economic.
15:08They tend to be philosophically
15:11individualist.
15:11Champions of the free market with
15:13emphasis on things like individual liberty,
15:16private property,
15:17limited government and their
15:19anti collectivist and anti
15:21communist and by collectivism.
15:22It's a term that's used a lot in the
15:25political discourse up to the early 1950s,
15:27and it simply means the drive toward
15:31central planning and government
15:33control over public institutions.
15:35Umm, now,
15:36this included the early kind of economic
15:39conservatives or libertarian thinkers,
15:41included people like Albert J Knock,
15:44HL Mencken, Frank Chodorov,
15:46Milton Friedman,
15:48who becomes really a kind of premier,
15:51you know, a free market intellectual
15:53in the in the Reagan years,
15:56Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich von Hayek,
16:00and others.
16:02Now.
16:05Social conservatism, the other major strand.
16:08And there's a lot of disagreement
16:10over what the major strands are.
16:11Should religious conservatism be
16:13its own thing? And, you know,
16:14if you've looked at the literature and
16:16political science or political sociology or,
16:18you know, political theory,
16:19etcetera, there are a lot of ways
16:21these discussions are framed.
16:22But I don't want to get so
16:24bogged down in all of that. But.
16:28Social conservatism is also known
16:30as traditional conservatism,
16:31traditionalism, moral conservatism,
16:33moral values, conservatism,
16:35classical conservatism, etcetera.
16:36And the key questions for this strand
16:40of conservatism are religious and moral,
16:43and the principles include that
16:44morality should be the guiding
16:45principle of government,
16:46that government should play a role in
16:49regulating moral conduct in the society,
16:51and that traditional judeo-christian
16:53values represent an absolute moral truth.
16:56So with regard to the welfare state,
16:58the economic conservatives or
17:00libertarians would really want to
17:01see the government out of the way,
17:03right to don't interfere with the
17:05invisible hand of the market.
17:06Whereas the social conservatives
17:08thought the government should play
17:09a role with regard to such programs.
17:11If it meant that they could encourage,
17:13you know,
17:14the right kind of morality or
17:16behaviors among the poor.
17:17And they disagreed over this a
17:18great deal and it would become kind
17:20of an issue going into the 50s.
17:22But it resolves and then the movement
17:24becomes a real driving force directing.
17:26A policy discourse.
17:30They were also seen as anti collectivist.
17:33And the influential thinkers in
17:35this camp included folks like the
17:37Southern agrarian, Richard Weaver,
17:39Austrian emigre, Eric Vogelin,
17:42and Leo Strauss and others.
17:44And it's the the classical,
17:46the sort of classical social
17:48conservative literature as it
17:50addresses issues related to equality.
17:52It's actually a really fascinating
17:54literature, and I'd be again,
17:55I'd be happy to take any questions
17:56on that later.
18:01Now, I found in my research that the
18:04emergence of a new welfare consensus.
18:06It was related to several factors.
18:08For one, the successful
18:10consolidation and organization of
18:11several strands of conservatism.
18:13So fusing these different traditions
18:16together into more cohesive and organized
18:19intellectual and political movement.
18:21The decline into two parent family
18:23ideal beginning in the 1960s.
18:25This was something that was very
18:27much latched on to and exploited to
18:29stoke resentment toward populations.
18:31We utilized public assistance
18:33on the programs themselves,
18:35racist and nativist reactions to the
18:37migration of African Americans from
18:39the rural S to urban centers mostly
18:42in the industrial Midwest and NE,
18:44and to the influx of immigrants
18:47from Latin America.
18:48Also, the decentralization of welfare
18:50program financing at administration
18:52was relevant for this too,
18:54but I'm going to probably go
18:56into that the least.
18:58But again, if anyone has questions and.
19:03Probably most importantly,
19:04the paradigm shift with regard
19:06to poverty that went from seeing
19:08poverty as a structural issue,
19:09right that that individuals,
19:11families fell through the cracks
19:13of the market and it wasn't
19:15their fault to a more behavioral
19:17framing of poverty right.
19:19And given this,
19:20appealing to things like racial
19:21fear and patriarchal and class
19:23insecurity and representing the
19:25problems associated with poverty
19:27as the result of individual
19:29familial and cultural pathology.
19:34Now, these two strands of conservatism
19:36come together in the 1950s.
19:38At first, it's known as Fusion Fusionism,
19:41quite literally, because the two strands
19:43fused together to create a new kind of,
19:45you know, syncretic tradition that
19:47included aspects of both of these,
19:49you know, smaller movements.
19:51And it's really a progenitor of today's
19:55contemporary conservative movement.
19:57It was a generative moment of folks
19:59like William F Buckley Junior,
20:01who's a Yale alum, by the way,
20:03and Russell Kirk put together the
20:05Conservative journal of Opinion,
20:06National Review,
20:07which becomes wildly popular,
20:09huge readership at that time,
20:11and still is a pretty prominent
20:14conservative outlet today.
20:15In the beginning,
20:17it included work by prominent libertarians
20:19as well as social conservatives,
20:21and it was part of a growing.
20:22Conservative press,
20:23along with other publications
20:25like human events, the Freeman,
20:27and others,
20:28and there was conflict among
20:30conservatives at this time.
20:31So the social conservatives
20:33thought the libertarians lacked
20:34a kind of moral framework,
20:37and the libertarians thought the
20:38social conservatives were were too
20:40worried about regulating people's
20:42lives and were too authoritarian.
20:48But it was the anti communism of the
20:50new right and in each of these groups
20:53and anti collectivism that kind of
20:55like brings them all together, right?
20:57Because they can focus their energies on
20:58something that they both agreed upon.
21:00And ultimately as people were
21:02joining this growing movement,
21:03people were picking up different
21:05aspects of each of these political
21:06formations and it more or less became,
21:09even if contradictory,
21:09it kind of cohesive movement
21:11on at least the veneer of it.
21:19So. Internationally, right,
21:21they were certainly opposed to the,
21:23to Communist Russia.
21:24But domestically, they targeted welfare
21:26state programs and often portrayed
21:29welfare bureaucrats as either liberals
21:31who'd been duped by communist plants
21:33or actual communists working, you know,
21:36undercover to destroy America from within.
21:38They had some conspiratorial narratives
21:39like that, but by and large,
21:42Buckley and others sort of, you know,
21:44working within the conservative press at
21:46the time and reaching out to to people,
21:49you know, policymakers.
21:50And and folks with actual power,
21:53they're able to.
21:54You know, remake conservatism
21:56into more of an intellectual,
21:59more of a respectable movement,
22:02and one that was more
22:03organized politically as well.
22:08Now National Review and the new right
22:10at the time really stick to the,
22:13the economic conservative script
22:15when attacking the welfare state.
22:16So it's wasteful in terms of
22:19spending and allocation of resources.
22:21And they were certainly concerned that,
22:23you know, the consolidation of power by
22:25the state in terms of administering welfare
22:27state programs could be a slippery slope to,
22:31you know, a totalitarian system and
22:33regulating the lives of people.
22:35And this was more or less the economic
22:37conservative or libertarian. Argument.
22:38And it's the argument that the new right
22:42largely sticks to up until the early 60s.
22:45So in 1960 and 61, there's some test
22:47cases which happened that that kind of
22:49start pushing against that narrative.
22:51So in 1960,
22:53the Governor of Louisiana had cut 23,000
22:56mostly African American children from
22:59the AFDC roles or the welfare rolls.
23:03And the rationale for the cuts,
23:04you know,
23:05he deliberately tried to racialize
23:07the discourse and he argued
23:09that homes where families had,
23:10where children had been born
23:13outside of marriage were,
23:14should be considered as unsuitable and
23:16therefore their benefits should be cut.
23:18Which is kind of contradictory, right?
23:21If you were thinking of a home as
23:22being unsuitable and unfit for kids,
23:24why would you want to cut resources
23:26going to those homes to be able to,
23:28you know, make ends meet and so forth?
23:29But nonetheless, that was the narrative,
23:32but ultimately the Louisiana.
23:33Cuts are reversed by the federal government.
23:36The media pushes back against it.
23:38At that time, the public largely sees it as,
23:42as, you know,
23:43as a wrongheaded and mean spirited
23:45kind of thing to do.
23:46And it was framed as hurting innocent
23:48children and starving babies and so on.
23:50So it's able to be reversed and and
23:52most people are on board with that.
23:54However, just the next year in 1961,
23:57the Newburgh controversy takes
23:58place in Newburgh,
24:00NY and this is a kind of historical pilot
24:02case illustrating the effectiveness.
24:05Of exploiting the public's
24:06disdain toward poor black mothers
24:08with disgusting stereotypes,
24:10calling their sexual morality into question.
24:13So whereas the Louisiana,
24:14Louisiana controversy was framed in
24:16terms of hurting innocent children,
24:18in Newburgh,
24:19the city manager Joseph Mitchell,
24:21he scapegoated the city's growing
24:23black population for the city's
24:25industrial decline and joblessness.
24:27And, you know,
24:28instead of thinking about it as
24:31hurting innocent people who who were
24:33in need of benefits and services.
24:35He put forward the narrative that
24:37black mothers were being subsidized
24:39for their promiscuity.
24:41He also implied that having children
24:42while poor was akin to abuse.
24:46So the attitude of the public unfortunately
24:49kind of follow in kind through the 1960s,
24:52and this is reflected in the opinion
24:54polls that I showed before Mitchell
24:56capitalized on hit on the publicity
24:58he was getting at that time.
25:00He was extensively covered in the growing
25:02body of of conservative literature as
25:04well as mainstream outlets at that time.
25:07And he developed a 13 point plan for reform,
25:11reforming the welfare state that
25:13included things like child caps,
25:15time limits, work requirements.
25:16Things that are strikingly familiar
25:19features of contemporary welfare
25:20reform discourse and aspects,
25:22actually, that are included in
25:24the 1996 welfare reform bill.
25:27And it's not that Clinton and.
25:30You know,
25:31the House and Senate Republicans
25:32and Democrats who are supportive
25:34of welfare reform looked back to
25:36Joseph Mitchell in 1961 and said
25:38we're going to do what he said.
25:40But Rather Mitchell's proposal
25:41of this and the the the extensive
25:43coverage that he was getting indicated
25:45that there was a shift in in the
25:48public's thinking on this issue.
25:55So after saying all of this,
25:57it should be noted that it was intellectuals
26:00who were on the political left,
26:02self identified as liberals and so on who?
26:06Really gave social scientific
26:08credibility to behavioral analysis
26:11of poverty that explicitly evoked
26:14race and gender and family roles.
26:17And again, these were figures
26:18like Irving Crystal, Daniel Bell,
26:20Norman Podhoretz, Earl Rabb,
26:22Nathan Glazer and a whole host of others,
26:25Daniel Patrick Moynihan,
26:26as I mentioned before,
26:27who later again come to be identified with
26:31this political label of neoconservative.
26:33These critics of welfare state
26:35programs illustrated concern for
26:37preserving traditional institutions
26:38like marriage and the nuclear family,
26:41and we're very concerned with the
26:43effects of welfare state programs in
26:45terms of disrupting these institutions.
26:47And they highlighted this again by
26:49demonizing poor black communities and
26:51framing their economic poverty in terms like,
26:53you know,
26:54referring to children as quote,
26:55UN quote, illegitimate,
26:57using terms like cultural pathology,
26:59community and family disorganization,
27:01etcetera and etcetera.
27:06They were very active in magazines
27:07and journals of opinion at the time,
27:09as well as academic journals.
27:12They published in magazines
27:14like Commentary, The Atlantic,
27:15which was a very different magazine
27:17back then than it is today.
27:18The public interest,
27:19the New York review of Books,
27:21also a bit different back back then.
27:24Now the public interest was founded
27:26by Irving Crystal and Daniel Bell and
27:29was presented as scholarly discourse.
27:31It wasn't peer reviewed,
27:33but it was editorial reviewed.
27:34Um, and they would later link up with
27:37editors and and associates at the
27:38Wall Street Journal and it really
27:40became a kind of mouthpiece for the
27:43growing supply side economics kind of
27:45Reaganomics frame that would come later.
27:51Umm. And in the public interest they
27:53regularly talked about things like so
27:56an article by Earl Robb talked about
27:58liberals being and this idea again
28:00that like you know well-intentioned
28:02bureaucrats were being duped by
28:05people who had nefarious aims was
28:07very common across the literature.
28:10But being duped white liberals were
28:12being duped by quote black and Spanish
28:14speaking anti poverty militants that
28:16the slum ***** is the special target
28:19of the anti poverty program UN quote.
28:22During a sit in by welfare
28:24rights demonstrators in 1967,
28:25Senator Russell Long of Louisiana
28:27uses really nasty,
28:29racialized and gendered language
28:30to disparage them,
28:31referring to them as quote,
28:32UN quote black brood mayors incorporated.
28:35Moynihan in 1968 in the public
28:38interest blamed the mean spirited
28:40and racist tone of of Russell,
28:43Long directed towards the
28:45welfare rights mothers,
28:46on the mothers themselves,
28:47saying that in truth this is a quote.
28:49Their tactics have invited the
28:51racial slurs End Quote.
28:53And Moynihan was considered a
28:55Liberal Democrat by them.
28:59So in 1965, Moynihan publishes
29:02the infamous Moynihan report.
29:05The actual title of the
29:06report was the ***** family,
29:07and it provided a moral dimension
29:09to the critique of the welfare
29:12state and analysis of poverty.
29:13Like it further reinforced that,
29:16and he appropriated what was at the time
29:19called the culture of poverty argument
29:21from the anthropologist Oscar Lewis.
29:23And Moynihan used it,
29:25and and other others of his
29:27cohorts used it to under score.
29:30What they saw as behavioral patterns among
29:32poor among the poor that were considered
29:34out of sync with white middle class values.
29:37Oscar Lewis, it should be noted,
29:38did not approve, right?
29:40He never meant for his concept
29:41to be used in that way.
29:43But those who had more, one might say,
29:45in terms of policy issues,
29:46more conservative agenda,
29:47used it that way and and with great success.
29:51Again, they used stigmatizing
29:53words like illegitimacy,
29:54welfare dependence,
29:55and highlighted especially divorce and
29:57single motherhood as pathological.
30:00Cultural patterns demonstrated
30:01by black families,
30:02and it should be noted that
30:04single motherhood and divorce,
30:06right?
30:06The increase in those rates was
30:07something that was happening
30:08across racial groups at that time,
30:10but it was being highlighted in
30:12particular for communities of color.
30:15And, you know,
30:16this contributed to revitalizing
30:18old stigmatizing labels like
30:20the worthy and unworthy core,
30:22for example.
30:22And while he didn't use the term culture
30:26of poverty verbatim in in the report,
30:29he described these behaviors
30:31with regard to black communities
30:32as being stuck in a quote,
30:34UN quote tangle of cultural pathology.
30:40So. This shift among intellectuals
30:42that we're looking at policy was part
30:44of a larger trend and that was that
30:47the political culture in the US in
30:49the 60s and although we don't usually
30:51associate the 60s with the with this
30:54was actually moving to the right.
30:56You know typically the movements
30:58for justice at the time you know,
31:01economic justice, the feminist movement,
31:03the anti war movement, gay liberation,
31:05etcetera, they,
31:06they get a lot of attention by
31:09folks as an indication that.
31:12Sort of radical left politics and reforms
31:14were kind of universally accepted and and
31:16and kind of you know part of how people
31:19were were looking at their worldviews.
31:21But you know Nixon at that time you
31:23know he coined this term that when
31:26Trump was running for office in 2015
31:28and 2016 he kind of rekindled it the
31:30term the silent majority to actually
31:33you know highlight that you know this
31:37and I don't believe that this was the
31:39case but this small vocal minority right
31:41that was getting all the attention.
31:43That actually most Americans were still
31:45traditionally conservative in their values,
31:47and they were a silent majority.
31:49And in fact,
31:49we're probably becoming more conservative.
31:51And in that respect,
31:52he was right.
31:55This was empowered by a growing sense
31:57of material and social insecurity
31:59experienced across the classes,
32:01except for the very rich,
32:02which is usually the case,
32:04for example, a working or middle
32:06class family by the end of the decade.
32:08The end of the 1960s was feeling
32:10the effects of inflation and was
32:12more likely exposed to print and
32:14broadcast media accounts of the
32:16welfare poor that associated fraud
32:17and abuse of the system with black
32:21Americans in the 1969 Life magazine.
32:23Article and Life published a
32:25lot of articles of this nature.
32:28They really worked to you know
32:29today we would say to get clicks
32:32but to sell magazines.
32:33Back then they really capitalized and
32:35and kind of exploited white fear.
32:38So they published a lot of articles
32:40about black militants at the time.
32:41They created the trope of the black
32:43sniper in cities shooting police
32:45which and the pictures they use,
32:47it turned out later were totally
32:49fabricated but in Life magazine
32:51they had an article that said
32:53quote the ordinary person.
32:55If not affluent, was likely unblack.
32:57How's that for euphemism, for white,
32:59urban and in seething revolt?
33:02If among the skilled wage earners and
33:04property owning middle income groups,
33:06they were likely white,
33:07respectable suburban and small town and
33:09equally convinced that Boondoggling poor
33:11welfare cheats were getting away with murder.
33:14UN quote.
33:15And again,
33:16this is 1 quote that's
33:18representative of many,
33:19many many articles and and again
33:21a growing narrative in terms
33:22of trying to appeal to people's
33:24resentment and anger at that time.
33:30So the attack on the welfare
33:32state during this period,
33:33with the influence of this newer
33:35discourse on the issue, began to shift.
33:38So up through the early 1960s,
33:41people like, for example,
33:43Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater,
33:45who ran against Lyndon Johnson
33:47in 64 and lost, National Review,
33:51the new right, human events,
33:53the Freeman, you know,
33:54this sort of growing a body
33:56of intellectuals from the.
33:58From the 50s into the early 60s,
34:00they characterized the welfare
34:01state as a kind of, you know,
34:04socialism creeping or
34:05socialism through welfarism.
34:07But by 1990,
34:08and this comes from the contract with
34:11America by Newt Gingrich in the in the
34:14Congress that then a prominent conservative,
34:18you know,
34:18politician who addressed these issues a lot,
34:21**** Armey and the House Republicans.
34:25That welfare reform should
34:27set out to address, quote,
34:29destructive social behavior by quote
34:31requiring welfare recipients to take
34:33responsibility for the decisions they make.
34:35UN quote.
34:36So we see this decisive shift
34:38in the in the narrative around,
34:40you know,
34:41the the discourse on welfare
34:42policy going from,
34:43again,
34:43more of an economic argument to
34:45more of a behavioral argument.
34:48So by 1980, Ronald Reagan
34:52is elected as president.
34:55The the Reagan Revolution
34:57was truly unmistakable.
34:58Reagan popularized something
35:00called supply side economics.
35:02He didn't invent it.
35:03It's also known as trickle down economics.
35:05You've probably heard of it and
35:07it it defined government spending,
35:09social programs,
35:10and taxes as unnecessary evils.
35:13And it consisted of drastic
35:15reductions in taxes,
35:16especially for corporations in the affluent,
35:19and significant spending
35:20cuts to social programs.
35:22Now Irving Crystal against
35:24one of the intellectuals.
35:25I discussed before,
35:26he's still very much active in this debate.
35:28He's still very relevant.
35:30He recalled that when
35:32he first was exposed to.
35:36Supply side economics.
35:37He actually didn't understand it,
35:39but he immediately saw its
35:41political possibilities.
35:42And, you know, he realized that this
35:46critique of progressive taxes and
35:48social policy that is centered on the
35:51idea that strategies for distributive
35:54justice disjoint individuals
35:56from regulatory and moral norms,
35:58such that strategies tend to weaken
36:00the position of elites as well.
36:02So he really, he knew that he could.
36:05Present supply side economics as
36:07an effective way of, you know,
36:09relegating the poor to the discipline
36:11of the market and at the same time
36:14cutting taxes for the rich and it would
36:17be politically very possible to do.
36:19Poverty was being framed increasingly
36:21as a managerial and behavioral problem.
36:23Welfare reform was predicated on
36:25identifying the everyday behavior of
36:27a large portion of the population
36:29as pathological and non productive
36:31and moving them off the rolls
36:33into the low wage labor market or
36:35mandating behavioral compliance in
36:37return for benefits and services.
36:40Reports, Books, media appearances,
36:42congressional testimony by key scholars,
36:45and a growing network of policy
36:47planning groups also was a very
36:49significant part of the story.
36:51It's, you know, for the sake of time.
36:53I'm not going to get into it too much.
36:55However,
36:55you might be familiar with the work
36:57of Charles Murray or George Gilder.
37:00Murray infamously wrote the Bell Curve,
37:02which was explicitly racist book
37:04that claimed that, you know,
37:07non whites were were genetically inferior.
37:09That had lower IQ's.
37:11And the justification was that,
37:13you know,
37:14welfare programs were therefore
37:16encouraging inferior people with
37:18lower IQ's to have more children when
37:19we we should be doing the opposite.
37:21And it sounds like those ideas
37:24should have been on the fringe
37:26and not in the mainstream,
37:27but by the 1980s and 90s,
37:30scholars like Murray and others,
37:32George Gilder,
37:33Robert Rector, and you know,
37:34the the the experts who worked within the
37:37context of the think tanks and lobbying.
37:40Groups and other policy planning groups.
37:43Their ideas were becoming quite
37:45salient in the halls of Congress and
37:47informal policy circles as well.
37:57So. The debates in the Congress and
38:01the 1980s and 90s revealed that
38:04there was a decisive shift in the
38:07political culture in how poverty and
38:10welfare policy were conceptualized.
38:12The idea is advocated by folks like
38:14Charles Murray and George Gilder and
38:16others was echoed in the chambers of
38:18Congress with a logic that situated
38:20adversary adversity and suffering as
38:23necessary for ensuring good behavior,
38:25especially for poor families of color.
38:28Moynihan, the sponsor of a major
38:30precursor to the 96 welfare reform bill,
38:33the 1988 Family Support Act,
38:35and the the cover of the book where
38:38Clinton and Reagan are shaking hands.
38:40It's actually at the signing of the
38:411988 signing of the Family Support Act.
38:46You know, poverty.
38:47What he continued the frame poverty
38:50in a behavioral context which still
38:52it never really departed from his
38:55tangle of pathology analysis.
38:57And the focus on individual behavior,
39:00especially reproductive, domestic,
39:02sexual, occupational,
39:03was now part of mainstream policy
39:06discourse and was by no means the
39:09exclusive intellectual enterprise
39:11of conservatives.
39:12This behavioral focus and emphasis
39:14on the otherness of the welfare poor,
39:16with reference to worthiness,
39:18work ethic, race, gender, role,
39:21performance, sexuality,
39:22etcetera,
39:22constructed a caricature of those
39:24who relied on public assistance that
39:26discouraged the general public from
39:29being sympathetic with them or even
39:31identifying their own hardship with them.
39:33So the attack on the welfare state.
39:36Reflected that programs were seen as
39:38no longer disciplining productive and
39:40reproductive norms and, you know,
39:42among, you know,
39:43target populations for welfare programs.
39:47And what emerged over time was a
39:49weaker and more enfeebled welfare
39:51state that could become more vulnerable
39:53to attack and reform in ways that
39:56were considered consistent with elite
39:57prerogatives and and the economic
40:00system and with the consequences of
40:03stigmatizing and further reducing
40:04services and benefits for the most.
40:06Vulnerable and marginalized in our society.
40:11And that's it. Happy to take
40:13any questions at this time.
40:20Thank you, Darren. That was you hit
40:21on so many different things that my,
40:24my brains are my brain is like spinning.
40:27I have one question and you,
40:29you began to refer to this with
40:31the the sort of liberal movements
40:33that were going on in the 60s,
40:36but I'd be curious to hear a little
40:38bit more about sort of. Yes.
40:41How did the civil rights movement
40:42impact some of these decisions that
40:44were being made in the 60s as well,
40:46if there was any like backlash and.
40:49Just would love to hear a little
40:50bit more about your thoughts on
40:51that. That's a great question.
40:55So people like like Daniel Patrick
41:00Moynihan especially among others,
41:02there was there was a push in the
41:05welfare rights movement to actually
41:06have folks in the communities who who
41:09who utilize public assistance actually
41:11have more input and to be more empowered
41:14in terms of the administration and
41:15structuring of the programs themselves.
41:17This was called the Community Action
41:19programs and one thing that this emerging
41:22group of of intellectuals formally.
41:25On the left, formerly on the left,
41:26but whose politics kind of
41:28migrated to the right over time.
41:30They hated the idea of non elites
41:33expressing any kind of collective
41:35political agency or having any
41:38kind of direct input in in program
41:41administration or or or even politically.
41:44And you know, it was this kind of.
41:46And what's ironic is many of them
41:48themselves came from very working class
41:50origins folks like Norman Podhoretz and
41:52Daniel Bell and Glazer and on and on.
41:55Going on.
41:55But they saw the system as being good
41:57to them because they kind of played
41:59by the rules and they thought that
42:01other people should do the same.
42:03It just so happened that they became
42:05very influential in the intellectual
42:06and political spheres and their
42:08ideas were able to, you know,
42:10have have influence.
42:13Anyone have any questions?
42:20Yes, thank you. I think we could
42:21talk for a while about this.
42:23One question I have is,
42:25is as the discourse starts to shift.
42:28Do you start to see rural urban
42:30differences in that discourse?
42:32Does it become more prominent in one
42:34versus the other?
42:36That's an excellent question.
42:37It's interesting in that one of
42:39the stereo, I didn't do that.
42:41One of the stereotypes with regard to
42:44folks who utilize public assistance
42:47is that the majority of people that
42:49do are live in urban communities and
42:52are and are are black and brown and
42:55the reality is that there are more
42:58rural white populations that utilize
43:00welfare than urban non white populations.
43:03But. You know.
43:05Finding a, you know,
43:07in the the folks who are crafting
43:09and refining the discourse.
43:11Over time it became much more effective
43:14to scapegoat groups that already you
43:17know lacked political agency because
43:19of you know structural inequality and
43:21and systemic racism and and sexism etcetera.
43:25So it's much more effective for them to
43:28highlight what they saw as being problematic.
43:31You know characteristics of of those
43:33folks and and those communities.
43:36And what's sad is it worked.
43:37You know,
43:38it really appealed to mostly folks
43:39who were struggling like in the
43:41middle class and working class.
43:42And you saw going into the mid and
43:46late 1970s and with the election
43:48of Reagan in 1980,
43:50a lot of working class people in
43:52what were considered kind of blue
43:54states right flipped and voted for
43:56Reagan and Reagan overwhelmingly
43:58beat Carter in in 1980.
44:00So you know that was an important
44:02kind of distinction and and between
44:04those two groups and how it.
44:06Kind of played out with regard to
44:07the shift in thinking on welfare.
44:12Any other?
44:14Thank you for really fascinating talk
44:17and history being the Child Study Center.
44:19I'm wondering this question is about
44:21child focused policies, which I know kind
44:24of welfare policies affect children,
44:26but they're not necessarily
44:28directed towards them explicitly.
44:30So I'm curious as the conversation on
44:33welfare and welfare policies has changed,
44:36I guess how has that mirrored or been
44:41different from other child focused?
44:44Policies, for example,
44:45early head start or maybe free and reduced
44:48meal programs at schools or things like that.
44:51Have they seen similar changes over time?
44:55It's interesting.
44:56So the expansion, for example,
44:58the child tax credit has been a real
45:01success in reducing poverty and among
45:03folks of color and in communities of color.
45:06And it's, it's, it's interesting.
45:09I think his name is Martin Gillins,
45:12and I think he's a Yale political scientist.
45:14He did a great,
45:15he did a great study and his book was titled
45:17Why Americans Hate Welfare and what he saw,
45:20he studied media representation from
45:23the 1960s onward into the 1990s.
45:26If I'm remembering it correctly,
45:27I read it a long time ago and what he
45:31saw was that when programs were being
45:33featured in in media narratives that
45:36that addressed children specifically
45:37or the elderly like Social Security,
45:40etcetera,
45:41the pictures and images that tended to
45:43go along with those stories were often
45:46of like white people in the suburbs.
45:48But then when when they looked at
45:50issues like the underclass or welfare
45:52fraud and abuse and and and wasteful
45:54spending and those kinds of narratives.
45:57More often than not they portrayed
45:59those images that they they featured
46:02images of of folks of color.
46:04So I mean that was a really you know I the,
46:07the. I think that as.
46:10As intellectuals were crafting and
46:12refining a narrative to convince folks
46:15that welfare spending was a bad idea,
46:18they had to kind of go after those
46:21programs that targeted those
46:22populations that had less, you know,
46:25power and agency in in the society.
46:28So as you saw,
46:29like with Louisiana in 1960 when
46:31the issue was framed as hurting
46:33innocent children, it got reversed.
46:35It got rolled back.
46:36But when Mitchell,
46:38Joseph Mitchell and Newberg spun.
46:40The the narrative as where we're
46:42subsidizing all of this immoral
46:44behavior of these you know of these
46:47women quote UN quote then the the
46:49opposition kind of held and and and in
46:51many ways it was sort of the beginning
46:53of a new way of thinking about it.
46:55So in terms of the you know the
46:57details of specific programs and
46:59how that affected those overtime,
47:01I'm not sure I didn't really get
47:03granular with regard to the actual
47:05programs and funding for each
47:06program but I was looking more
47:08at the discourses but you know.
47:10In terms of the attack,
47:11they they featured within their
47:13narratives things that they knew they
47:16could sort of tap into and exploit.
47:18Things like popular resentment right
47:20around things like the changing family
47:23structure and gender roles and, you know,
47:25the gains made in civil rights and,
47:27you know,
47:28black liberation movements
47:29and things like that.
47:30I hope that answers your question somewhat.
47:33Thank you.
47:35Darren,
47:35thank you so much for that and that
47:37was a wonderful synthesis and I've
47:39certainly learned a lot from the
47:40from your presentation as someone
47:42who's not from America and Julia
47:43Zane has a question in the chat and
47:45she was wondering to what extent
47:47do you think the Immigration Act
47:49of 1965 and also played a part in
47:52politicians movement to attack black
47:54communities and welfare programs.
47:56You know, it's interesting. With the the.
48:00The wave of immigration that happens
48:02in the 60s and and the destination
48:04country are not destination the
48:06countries folks are coming from being
48:09predominantly Latin America and Asia,
48:11they're able to weave into the narrative.
48:14Um, you know,
48:16the issue of immigration somewhat,
48:18but it's not something for whatever reason
48:21that that is featured nearly as much as,
48:23you know the the culture of poverty stuff
48:25and black communities and and all of that.
48:28I think that for a lot of.
48:31You know, a lot of these figures
48:33that were that were engaged in this
48:35discourse and in these debates,
48:37they saw a lot what was happening
48:39in a lot of the immigrant
48:41communities actually were were they,
48:42they saw it as people conforming to the sort
48:45of achievement ethos and that kind of thing.
48:47So they didn't feature as prominently
48:49in their negative characterizations.
48:50And just if I may,
48:52while I still have the microphone,
48:53I was just wondering you, you,
48:55you started by presenting,
48:56you know,
48:57the kind of per capita investment in
49:00welfare across different countries.
49:01And I'm just.
49:02Interested in your research?
49:03Have you looked at any kind of cross
49:05cultural or country specific analysis
49:07of of narratives on poverty and how
49:09they differ between countries that
49:11invest heavily in social welfare
49:13programs versus the United States?
49:15Yeah,
49:15so the countries that are most like us
49:18but they're still the welfare states
49:20of say Canada and UK for example,
49:23are still much more expansive
49:25than that of the United States,
49:28but they're closer to us than
49:30say our central European and
49:32Northern European counterparts.
49:33Remember in in the UK when the Reagan
49:36Revolution is happening here the
49:38Thatcher revolution is happening there.
49:40And you know I I I kind of mentioned
49:42briefly the think tanks when I had
49:44to cut this down to 35 minutes
49:46I had a whole thing on the think
49:47tanks that I could get into it.
49:49But you know there's there's a guy
49:52named Anthony Fisher in England he
49:54was kind of like the Frank Perdue
49:56of England he he ran like a chicken
49:58operation and he had a lot of money and
50:00he decided to get into politics and.
50:02They started the Institute
50:04for Economic Affairs,
50:05which was one of the first think
50:07tanks in England that kind of was
50:09looking at these sorts of issues.
50:11And there were a whole host of,
50:13and this was under the influence of one
50:15of the libertarians I mentioned before,
50:17Friedrich von Hayek.
50:18He told people interested
50:20in addressing this issue.
50:22He said, listen,
50:23don't talk to the politicians,
50:25but talk to the professors,
50:26talk to the intellectuals,
50:27go into the arena of ideas,
50:29because that's that's where
50:30you can make a difference.
50:32And it was him and.
50:33And Milton Friedman and
50:35others who started what?
50:36It wasn't the first political think tank,
50:38but it was the first one
50:40that was dedicated to
50:41advancing a kind of singular
50:44political objective, right?
50:45And that was the Palaran society
50:47and that became kind of the
50:49blueprint for later think tank.
50:50So the IEA in England is really
50:55effective at demonizing, you know,
50:57folks who are struggling there and,
50:59you know, allocations for public
51:02housing get cut somewhat.
51:03Um, the healthcare system doesn't
51:05really get touched so much.
51:06Taxes get reduced for the
51:07wealthy and the affluent,
51:09but it's not nearly to the extent
51:11that happened here and there.
51:12There were at least 6 to 8 other
51:14think tanks after the IEA that that
51:17were created by Anthony Fisher that
51:19we're doing the same kind of work
51:21both in the US and in in in the UK
51:24and Canada and you know the in 19.
51:29Gosh, I think it was,
51:30this was the late 1980s.
51:32Margaret Thatcher actually,
51:35you know,
51:35granted a Lordship to the director of
51:37the IEA saying that without them and
51:39without the work of the think tanks that,
51:41you know,
51:42their revolution wouldn't have been possible.
51:45So, yeah, but, you know,
51:48it's interesting.
51:49I,
51:49I had a slide and I cut it again for
51:52time that looked at support in the
51:55European countries for welfare spending.
51:57And whereas in the US we're
51:59consistently at about a 60%,
52:01sixty five sometimes close to
52:0470% rate of opposition towards
52:06towards expanding welfare programs.
52:08And the the way the questions are
52:10worded I mean we can get granular with
52:12like well what does that really mean
52:14and all of that but it's what we have there.
52:16It's kind of the it's kind of
52:19the way it looked like here.
52:22In the early 1960s.
52:25So they,
52:26you know,
52:27some of the lowest support
52:29for welfare programs are in,
52:30if I'm remembering correctly,
52:32believe it or not Switzerland,
52:33even though they have an extensive welfare
52:35state and some of the other country,
52:36I think because it's extensive some
52:38there's a little more opposition,
52:41but that's about 65% support
52:44with about 35% opposition.
52:46That's still a drastic change from the US
52:49and Luxembourg actually has like 90% support.
52:52And that's about the range about 65% to
52:5590 compared to what it is in the US.
52:58Which is about 30% in any odd year,
53:0030 to 40.
53:02And
53:02I think we have one last question
53:04that we can take sort of on this.
53:05Apologies if I rambled there, but.
53:08But remember please that Doctor
53:10Brennan's going to linger.
53:11So if you have other questions,
53:12please stay around and and ask him but this.
53:17I thank you for your talk.
53:19I was curious,
53:20you mentioned a bunch about the
53:22media and control of magazines and
53:25narratives like that and I was
53:27wondering if you've noticed or you've
53:30seen a change in trends of public
53:33opinion with the rise of social media
53:36and having more individuals be have
53:38larger platforms or if that's still
53:41largely controlled by the billionaires
53:43they're owning these companies
53:46that's. An excellent question.
53:47I'm by no means a social media expert,
53:51even though I threw my,
53:52you know, my ads up there.
53:53But. Feel free to reach out,
53:56but it's interesting,
53:57you know, in 2012,
53:59Newt Gingrich makes a run for the presidency.
54:01He's, he's, he wants to,
54:03he's in the the the group of
54:06Republican presidential hopefuls to
54:08run against Barack Obama in 2012.
54:11And he kind of gets caught up in a
54:14he makes a speech somewhere and he
54:16and he uses the same kind of language
54:18that he and others did in the 1990s
54:21with regard to welfare programs.
54:23And he alluded to the fact that.
54:25Poor folks in black communities
54:27had used strange language.
54:28He said something like that.
54:29They have no habituation to work and
54:31they don't see anybody go to work.
54:34On Monday morning,
54:34he said something along those
54:36lines and he got a real backlash,
54:37actually on social media and
54:39and his his approval ratings.
54:42He was considered a frontrunner in the
54:44beginning of the primaries in 2012.
54:46His approval ratings came down somewhat
54:48with the midterm elections that just passed.
54:51You know, I I tuned into Fox News just
54:53to see what the discourse was and.
54:55There was a there was a particular
54:57analyst I can't remember his name
54:59who was really laboring over the
55:01fact that single women just didn't
55:03turn out for the Republicans to and
55:05and and the split was like 38 points
55:07and his response to that is sounded
55:09so much like the language around
55:11welfare reform years ago he said I
55:13think we need he said something like
55:14we need to get these women married or
55:16something like that and I was like
55:18really that's your take home point
55:20and he got and what's interesting
55:21is is that that was very common
55:24discourse back when in fact the.
55:26The language of the bill has all
55:27of this stuff in the beginning,
55:29where it's like.
55:30You know,
55:30whereas marriage is the cornerstone of what,
55:34you know of society.
55:35And this is the idea was,
55:37you know,
55:38really to encourage women to be an intact
55:40relationships regardless of the consequences,
55:43regardless of the the
55:44quality of the relationship,
55:45the demonization of single
55:47motherhood and everything.
55:48And it was almost refreshing
55:50that the day after he mentioned
55:52that with regard to the midterms,
55:54I mean,
55:54he was crucified on social media for it.
55:56And a lot of that discourse
55:58now sounds just absolutely.
56:00You know just medieval and I think
56:03that's because of you know people
56:05on social media are are you know
56:07the in in some ways I mean we
56:09all know that the downside of it.
56:11But in some ways the you know the
56:13the arena of ideas has become more
56:15democratized and that's a good
56:17thing but the narratives are still
56:19constrained you know the build back
56:22better act turned into the Inflation
56:24Reduction Act and like was cut
56:26in more more than more more than
56:28by half and a lot of things taken
56:29out and that was mostly because of.
56:31Disagreement among Democrats,
56:33not even, you know,
56:35because of the the negotiations
56:37happening across the party line.
56:38So the narratives are still
56:41constrained in ways that I think
56:43are important and related to this.
56:45But I think they're giving way a bit,
56:46and I think social media has
56:48played somewhat of a role. Yeah,
56:50well, clearly there's lots we
56:52can continue to talk about.
56:53And again, you know,
56:54if you're able to stay, please do.
56:56Thank you to everyone who tuned in on Zoom.
56:59Everyone here, please know that you
57:01are such an integral part to all
57:03of our missions here at the center,
57:05and we're so grateful to have
57:08such a wonderful community.
57:09And thank you for showing
57:10up and enjoy your break.