Paula Croxson

Transcript

• 00:09welcome to Science et al podcast
• 00:11about everything science sponsored
• 00:12by the Yale School of Medicine.
• 00:14I'm your host Daniel Barron and
• 00:16in this episode I'm speaking
• 00:18with Doctor Pollack Rockson.
• 00:20Paul is the senior manager for
• 00:21education programs at Columbia
• 00:23University's Document Institute.
• 00:24She's also the senior producer for the
• 00:27Story Collider and is an assistant
• 00:29professor of neuroscience at the Icahn
• 00:31School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.
• 00:34Paula, as she asked me to call her,
• 00:36holds a PhD in experimental
• 00:38psychology from the University of
• 00:40Oxford and at Mount Sinai Studies.
• 00:42The neural basis of memory in
• 00:44human and nonhuman primate models.
• 00:46It's the combination of those
• 00:48three areas of expertise,
• 00:49being senior manager, educational programs,
• 00:51senior Producer, Story Collider,
• 00:53and an extremely highly trained and
• 00:56successful scientists that I'm so
• 00:58interested in speaking with Paula.
• 00:59So in the world of academia,
• 01:02Paul is taking a path less traveled
• 01:04and his teared her energy.
• 01:07Thord science communication very much
• 01:09and always as a highly trained scientists.
• 01:12And at the height of the pandemic,
• 01:14when I sat down to listen to
• 01:16and edit these conversations,
• 01:18I really enjoyed kind of re entering
• 01:20that kind of mind space that I
• 01:22had shared with Paula during our
• 01:24conversation and just really want
• 01:26to sincerely thank you for coming
• 01:28to New Haven and speaking with me.
• 01:30We spent a lovely day in New Haven
• 01:33and where she had come to accept
• 01:35a point to fellowship.
• 01:37And the talk that she gave when
• 01:39she accepted the fellowship was
• 01:41standing room only and everyone left
• 01:43inspired and really wanting to use
• 01:46their respective area of expertise
• 01:48to help and improve the world.
• 01:51And just the whole conversation
• 01:53was was wonderful and just again,
• 01:56thank you for coming out.
• 01:58And so here we go.
• 02:00Paula croxon.
• 02:09So Doctor Cox and is actually.
• 02:12Would you prefer Doctor Kroc center Paula?
• 02:14You can call me Paula. OK,
• 02:17that seems more conversation calls me.
• 02:19Don't cry Ray. He's never known only
• 02:22for asking like it rainy. Always say doctor
• 02:25until you know someone says otherwise. So
• 02:28Paula is the senior manager for education
• 02:30programs at Columbia University,
• 02:32Zuckerman Institute.
• 02:33She's also the senior producer
• 02:35for the Story Collider.
• 02:37And she is an assistant professor
• 02:39of neuroscience at the Icahn
• 02:41School of Medicine at Mount Sinai,
• 02:43and the combination of those three
• 02:45titles is precisely why I'm so
• 02:48interested in talking with you today.
• 02:50And so you have a very solid,
• 02:53serious background in neuroscience
• 02:54and in research,
• 02:56and recently taken a career
• 02:58transition into public communication.
• 02:59And could you tell us about
• 03:01what that transition was like?
• 03:03And then maybe we can trace back
• 03:06some of the decision points you
• 03:08know through your education
• 03:10and through your life.
• 03:12Sure, sure,
• 03:12OK. So we will start with the
• 03:15decision and go backwards there, OK?
• 03:21Yeah, so the decision came fairly recently,
• 03:24so I actually yeah I was.
• 03:26I was junior faculty at Mount Sinai.
• 03:29I have my own neuroscience lab in
• 03:31which I was studying the neural and
• 03:34neurochemical basis of episodic memory.
• 03:37So the kind of autobiographical life memories
• 03:39that are lost in people with dementia,
• 03:42such as Alzheimer's disease.
• 03:45And I was also doing a lot of science
• 03:50communication work on the side.
• 03:53And I made the decision early in the
• 03:55summer to switch career trajectory's
• 03:58completely and took up the position
• 04:01at Columbia's Document Institute.
• 04:04So I remain adjunct faculty at Mount Sinai.
• 04:07I really love for research
• 04:10that I'm involved in,
• 04:12and I plan to continue doing
• 04:14that in some form for sometime.
• 04:17But my main job is now communicating
• 04:21science to the public, and I.
• 04:23Doing that in a number of ways.
• 04:26So the program that I run is mostly currently
• 04:32aimed at K through 12 students and teachers.
• 04:38So we have a program where we
• 04:41have high school students.
• 04:43They have opportunities to come
• 04:45into research labs over the summer
• 04:47and and actually learn research
• 04:49first hand from active researchers.
• 04:51We call that the Brainiac program.
• 04:54That's awesome,
• 04:55which stands for something
• 04:56like brain research
• 04:57apprenticeships in New York.
• 04:59I'm missing another letter somewhere.
• 05:01Yeah, I know, I.
• 05:02I think back to when I was in high school
• 05:06and I didn't have any opportunities.
• 05:09Like that is incredible.
• 05:12That's that's it.
• 05:13We recruit as closely as we can
• 05:16from from our local neighborhood,
• 05:18that which which is Upper Manhattan
• 05:20in the South Bronx. So lots
• 05:22kids from Harlem. So this is funded
• 05:25by Columbia University as part
• 05:27of their public outreach program.
• 05:29So we partly funded by Columbia University,
• 05:31and we're also the beneficiaries of
• 05:34a number of gifts and donations,
• 05:36including from the Stavros Niarchos
• 05:38Foundation, from the Bank,
• 05:39BNY Mellon from the Pinkerton Foundation.
• 05:42They they fund some of these high school.
• 05:45Scholarships?
• 05:48And again, number of a number of other
• 05:51donations go to our different programs,
• 05:53so we've been very lucky.
• 05:55Very fortunate to have such great
• 05:58supporters for that sounds wonderful.
• 05:59And it's also wonderful
• 06:01at Columbia University.
• 06:02Have really made this part of their
• 06:05mission to have science available to the
• 06:08public like this and such a visible
• 06:10and tangible way also,
• 06:12yeah, so how did
• 06:14you? I'm imagining you
• 06:16being in your lab and.
• 06:18You're writing grants.
• 06:20You're writing papers,
• 06:22doing experiments, and what was?
• 06:25What was that thought process like?
• 06:27What were you looking for?
• 06:30Yeah, OK, So what do you mean?
• 06:32What was I looking for?
• 06:34Scientifically known outside?
• 06:35Looking out for
• 06:36this life or life wise life wise yeah OK well
• 06:40I think it might be useful to backtrack here.
• 06:43Maybe go a little bit further back so because
• 06:46it's hard for me to explain how I got here.
• 06:50I had them probably one of the most
• 06:53traditional trajectories in science
• 06:54of all of most people that I know.
• 06:57So straight out of high school
• 06:59I went to Cambridge University.
• 07:01I didn't know what Cambridge University was,
• 07:03but I was lucky enough to have a high
• 07:06school teacher who was really sort of
• 07:09persistent in getting me to think about
• 07:13going to an Ivy League type University.
• 07:15And I just about squeaked in
• 07:18just about squeaked.
• 07:19I did. So, the, uh,
• 07:23I actually didn't make the offer that I had,
• 07:26which was for, well,
• 07:27the the the intricacies of the
• 07:29British academic requirements
• 07:31and all that interesting,
• 07:32but suffice to say,
• 07:34I only just made the grade to get in,
• 07:37and was really lucky that I did I
• 07:40think Cambridge was really good for
• 07:42me and made me work really hard,
• 07:45and it's beautiful.
• 07:46Also, it is very
• 07:47lovely. Yeah, yeah, I did some amazing
• 07:50nonscientific things there as well.
• 07:52So such as I played in a lot of orchestras
• 07:55and I'm a musician as well and I was
• 07:57able to spend a lot of time doing that.
• 07:59Man, I was also able to
• 08:01play a lot of water polo,
• 08:02which is another one of my loves.
• 08:05The program that I did at Cambridge
• 08:07was is the Natural Sciences program,
• 08:10which means it's very broad and
• 08:11it allowed me to explore lots of
• 08:13different areas of biological science,
• 08:15which was my real sort of area of passion,
• 08:18and I ended up in the neuroscience
• 08:20program in my final year there
• 08:23and just really thought it was
• 08:25wonderful and I had to work very
• 08:27hard to stay in that program
• 08:29as well. Just during
• 08:30this time, and you did, you write?
• 08:32Did you do stories like did you
• 08:34have some form of public outreach?
• 08:36Nope, no, no. That's all I had
• 08:39no interest in the garage.
• 08:42I find I didn't even really think about it as
• 08:46a thing that was necessary or interesting.
• 08:49And so I really was very,
• 08:52very myopic about my scientific career.
• 08:54I did work in industry the year
• 08:56after I graduated from college.
• 08:59I worked for Merck for a year and and I'm
• 09:01pharmaceutical pharmaceutical company.
• 09:04Yeah, so they had a.
• 09:06They had to research and development
• 09:08site just North of London at the time.
• 09:11So I worked there for a year and that
• 09:14sort of served to convince me that I
• 09:17needed a PhD if I wanted to have control.
• 09:21Of the research direction that I went in,
• 09:24you know if I didn't just want to
• 09:26be in somebody elses lab and I
• 09:28was pretty ambitious,
• 09:30so I wanted to do that.
• 09:32So I so I got myself into
• 09:34a PhD program at Oxford,
• 09:35which is a Masters then PhD,
• 09:37which sort of resembles the US PhD
• 09:40system in that I had classes and some
• 09:42assignments and I did lab rotations.
• 09:44I found my lab one lab wasn't enough for me,
• 09:48so I was in 2 laps of course.
• 09:53And so and so during my
• 09:57PhD training I again had.
• 10:00Really never thought about public
• 10:02outreach or communication at all,
• 10:04so I was really focused on on my research.
• 10:10And it wasn't until I moved to New
• 10:13York that I really was even aware
• 10:17that that science communication could
• 10:19happen beyond my thesis defense.
• 10:24Yeah, so the way I got to New York
• 10:27was that I started working for my
• 10:29postdoctoral advisor in Oxford at the time.
• 10:32His name is Mark Baxter and he he was.
• 10:35He was great in a number of ways.
• 10:37He was young and brilliant and he
• 10:39taught me a lot about the academic
• 10:42process and he moved to New York about
• 10:44two years after I started working
• 10:47with him and he asked me and the other
• 10:49lab members if we wanted to come an.
• 10:52I decided to go for it.
• 10:54And he was also. Yeah he was.
• 11:01He was really sort of open to letting
• 11:03me have my own research direction.
• 11:06Which which is really exciting for me.
• 11:09So
• 11:09you were functioning as a
• 11:11postdoc when you moved to
• 11:13Mount Sinai. I was, yeah, yeah,
• 11:15an postdoc is is a great time.
• 11:17At least I think it's a
• 11:19great time because I yeah,
• 11:21I got to have more academic freedom,
• 11:24which is kind of what I've been
• 11:26looking for this whole time.
• 11:28But I also had had the benefit
• 11:31of mentorship and guidance.
• 11:32And then so I kind of stumbled
• 11:35on this group called.
• 11:36New right which?
• 11:38Which is a is a science writing
• 11:41workshop comprised of scientists
• 11:43and non scientists too.
• 11:45Could be writers journalists.
• 11:47We also had some some people
• 11:50who wrote poetry or some
• 11:52people from the theater world.
• 11:54Some artists,
• 11:55some of whom rotated in and out and
• 12:00others who are permanent members.
• 12:03And they adopted me even though I didn't
• 12:05really want to do science communication.
• 12:07I just really wanted a paper
• 12:09in a high impact Journal.
• 12:10And
• 12:11if I became better at this is true.
• 12:13It's kind of embarrassing now,
• 12:14but at the time, that was really what
• 12:17I wanted and I thought if I became
• 12:19a better writer I could get that.
• 12:21I think that's pretty sound logic, right?
• 12:23It's gotta be a really good writer together.
• 12:26Sometime it's actually backed up
• 12:28by it by some published data now.
• 12:31You use more narrative
• 12:32elements in your writing.
• 12:33You are more likely to be
• 12:35published in a high impact
• 12:37Journal and you're more and more
• 12:39likely to have higher citations
• 12:41as well. Were fun to read for sure.
• 12:44Definitely the hook. Your
• 12:46neuroscience papers start like that.
• 12:48Now that I think about it like some
• 12:51philosophical question or hook or
• 12:53something exactly, yeah,
• 12:54go trying to get published in
• 12:56higher external and I got my wish.
• 12:58I did like OK for published in
• 13:01Nature Neuroscience and then I was
• 13:03like OK great. I'm done.
• 13:05But at that point I had got involved
• 13:07with Brain Awareness Week as well.
• 13:10Brain Awareness Week is is a
• 13:12fantastic thing is spearheaded by the
• 13:14Dana Foundation and it is a week.
• 13:16But usually spills over into
• 13:19the whole month of March.
• 13:21When people all over the
• 13:22world is truly international,
• 13:24celebrate the brain and raise awareness
• 13:25of the need for mental health research
• 13:28and for brain research and for for
• 13:30taking care of our own mental health.
• 13:32So I thought that this was really
• 13:34cool and there were some people
• 13:36at Mount Sinai doing like a brain
• 13:38fair where they would invite people
• 13:40from local schools and local kids
• 13:42to come and learn about the brain
• 13:44through hands-on activities.
• 13:45I had a little bit of fun with
• 13:48this and I thought that it would
• 13:50be cool if we got some local.
• 13:53Um performers who weren't necessarily
• 13:54doing shows about the brain but who
• 13:57were doing these kind of nerdy shows.
• 13:58So I thought it would be cool if
• 14:01we got some model events involved,
• 14:03as well as things like brain fares for kids.
• 14:06So I approached some groups with
• 14:08names like Nerd Nights and the Story
• 14:10Collider and ask them if they wouldn't
• 14:12mind doing a show about the brain
• 14:14in March and generally speaking,
• 14:16they said if you can find us a
• 14:18scientist to be on the show we will do.
• 14:21We will do the show about brain.
• 14:24So, um,
• 14:25so I kind of became energized by this,
• 14:28and I thought this was a great idea
• 14:30and I found a scientist for nerd night.
• 14:33And then I found some scientists
• 14:34for the story Collider,
• 14:36along with the help of some colleagues
• 14:38and then the story Collider asked
• 14:40me if I wanted to tell a story
• 14:42on their show and I said yes.
• 14:44And then after I hung up the phone with them,
• 14:48I called them back and I said no,
• 14:50I do not want to do there.
• 14:52Still not convinced her.
• 14:54So under men so unconvinced.
• 14:59And there are a couple of reasons for that.
• 15:02One of the reasons was that was
• 15:04that the research I was doing
• 15:06was was in nonhuman primates,
• 15:07and I felt the need to be very
• 15:09sensitive and careful about how
• 15:11I spoke to people about that.
• 15:13I still do feel the need for that,
• 15:15and so I wasn't sure that standing on a
• 15:17stage in front of people was the best
• 15:20way to communicate that when you know a
• 15:22two way conversation might have been better.
• 15:25But the other reason was that I was
• 15:27just afraid and didn't think it was.
• 15:29Important and so I didn't see why I should,
• 15:33but they're very persuasive,
• 15:35so I had this conversation with
• 15:38Aaron Barker and she said to me.
• 15:42You know, she asked me questions
• 15:44about my life and so she asked me,
• 15:46for example,
• 15:47is there anybody in your life you
• 15:50suffered with a mental health problem
• 15:51and I said Oh no, not really.
• 15:54Well just my grandmother.
• 15:56Um, I suppose she had Alzheimer's disease,
• 15:58but everybody knows somebody
• 15:59with Alzheimer's disease.
• 16:00I don't think that's very special story,
• 16:02and she said, oh, OK, OK,
• 16:04well what about your research?
• 16:06What do you work on?
• 16:07And I said, well,
• 16:09I work on acetal choline and she said,
• 16:11as tell who an I said it's a
• 16:13it's a target of most of the
• 16:16Alzheimer's drugs that work at all.
• 16:18And she said, oh really, not a special story.
• 16:23Oh well, so that's interesting connection.
• 16:26Had you made that connection in
• 16:28your research to your personal life,
• 16:30or was this no? OK, right
• 16:33now you know I had no so actually
• 16:36the process of telling this story
• 16:38for me was an incredible process
• 16:41because I made this connection.
• 16:43So in the story I I talked about,
• 16:46my grandmother's health
• 16:47mental health decline,
• 16:48which happened during my teenage years
• 16:50and I didn't handle it very well.
• 16:52I would sort of.
• 16:53I struggled with it a lot and and
• 16:55I sort of was dealing with my own
• 16:58identity and then felt a little
• 17:00bit as if my identity was at risk,
• 17:02because because my grandmother was was
• 17:05she didn't Remember Me and I didn't
• 17:06have a great way of dealing with this,
• 17:09so I just sort of gradually
• 17:11lost touch with her.
• 17:12Over the years I didn't really
• 17:14want to talk to her on the phone,
• 17:16for example, because I knew she.
• 17:18Wouldn't know who was calling.
• 17:20Um, but I felt very guilty about
• 17:23that later on when it was too
• 17:25late to do anything about it.
• 17:27Um, simultaneously without
• 17:28really being conscious of it,
• 17:30I had started working on this particular
• 17:32area of the brain more because I
• 17:35fell into it because I had found
• 17:37a great research colleague rather
• 17:39than because I chose in that area.
• 17:42But in learning about the disease,
• 17:44I came to terms with what happened
• 17:47to my grandmother,
• 17:48and I began to forgive myself.
• 17:50But almost telling the story was a
• 17:52process of self forgiveness for me.
• 17:55And so.
• 17:56And so for some reason that
• 17:58was totally unclear to me.
• 18:00They put me last in the show.
• 18:01I had to wait for everybody else
• 18:03to tell their story.
• 18:04I got up.
• 18:05I told mine I couldn't see
• 18:07anybody in the audience.
• 18:08It was really.
• 18:09You know I didn't have no idea how
• 18:12it went and I got down off the stage
• 18:14and after they wrapped up the show.
• 18:17People came up to me with tears
• 18:20in their eyes and they thanked
• 18:22me for sharing my story and.
• 18:25When I see people asked if they could hug me.
• 18:28And told me that they'd had a similar
• 18:31experience and it meant a lot to
• 18:33them that somebody got up and talked
• 18:35about how hard it was personally.
• 18:38And I was
• 18:39like, oh, that's what we're doing.
• 18:45Because everybody knows someone
• 18:47without scientists, right? I
• 18:48just hadn't occurred to me
• 18:51that something so relatable.
• 18:53Could be as important as it was. But
• 18:58also, did you discuss your
• 19:00research during the story,
• 19:01and I think that's a huge part of
• 19:03what can really affect people because
• 19:05people have these experiences and they
• 19:08don't know how to make sense of them.
• 19:10And so by communicating what you were
• 19:12doing the way you were thinking about it,
• 19:15I was big. Big deal, I mean,
• 19:18did people tell you specifically that
• 19:20like it wasn't just that you were
• 19:22telling your story about your grandma,
• 19:24but you're helping everyone makes
• 19:26sense of it? Yes, yeah, definitely.
• 19:27I did talk about my research.
• 19:29Yeah, you know, I talked about how how
• 19:31I felt as if my research was helping
• 19:34us understand Alzheimer's disease
• 19:36because I was working on this on this
• 19:38neurotransmitter alstyle Colleen, which.
• 19:40It is the target of most of
• 19:42the Alzheimer's drugs at work,
• 19:44but they don't work very well
• 19:46and we don't know why they don't
• 19:49work well and our research showed
• 19:51that that you need acetal choline
• 19:53in order to recover from damage.
• 19:55Physical damage elsewhere in the brain,
• 19:58which is another huge thing that
• 20:00happens in Alzheimer's disease,
• 20:01cell loss and cell death is happening.
• 20:05And it seems as if that we need to detect
• 20:08Alzheimer's earlier in order to for
• 20:10those drugs to be even remotely effective.
• 20:13Because by the time that
• 20:14damage is already happened,
• 20:16it's too late.
• 20:18And so actually,
• 20:20it's such an interesting area
• 20:21of research because that theory
• 20:23of acetal choline being imported
• 20:25in Alzheimer's is really old.
• 20:27And it got dropped for a long time
• 20:29because we felt as if as a field we
• 20:31felt as if it didn't make any sense.
• 20:34It couldn't be the answer.
• 20:36And that's because it's part of the answer,
• 20:39not the whole thing,
• 20:41right?
• 20:41So the research I subsequently went
• 20:43on to do and I became independent,
• 20:46but which was still in collaboration
• 20:48with Mark Baxter.
• 20:49My previous mentor was to try and work with
• 20:52them with a technique to increase our style
• 20:56calling function in the brain by using.
• 20:59Using dreads,
• 21:00these designer receptors exclusively
• 21:02activated by designer drugs Joe Dreads is
• 21:05a very cool acronym for very Long Thing.
• 21:08OK,
• 21:08I'm not familiar.
• 21:09Well,
• 21:10basically
• 21:10it's a switch
• 21:11that can increase
• 21:13or decrease the activity of a cell.
• 21:15You have to choose between those.
• 21:18You can't have both in the same cell yet,
• 21:22although maybe at some point.
• 21:25And it's so. It's basically a
• 21:27modified version of a channel that
• 21:30exists naturally in the cells,
• 21:32but it's been modified so that so that
• 21:35it only responds to an artificial
• 21:37drug that you can give to the animal.
• 21:40Or maybe one day the person. So
• 21:43you're so you tell this story,
• 21:46and then these people even help you make
• 21:49connections about how they're coping
• 21:51with situations in their own life.
• 21:53And then you go back. The lab and.
• 21:57Continue researching Alzheimer's
• 21:59for what is the timeline here?
• 22:01I'm trying to draw a
• 22:03number. Yeah, so I think it was probably
• 22:06about six or seven years ago that I
• 22:09told that first story was number one.
• 22:12It was awhile ago, yeah.
• 22:15After I told her it just kind of stuck
• 22:17in my head alittle bit and I had
• 22:20been playing around because I was in
• 22:22new right and I was around writers.
• 22:24I had started writing a little bit.
• 22:26I had a blog at Psychology Today
• 22:28that I didn't write very much on
• 22:30but I was trying but after I told
• 22:32that story I think I realized that
• 22:34I had a bit of a talent for writing
• 22:36for the spoken word and I started
• 22:39to give more talks for the public.
• 22:42So yeah, so I would do these events.
• 22:44Cool things like nerd night
• 22:46and taste of science.
• 22:47And I had a collaborator Ben Lilly
• 22:49who was really into doing these weird
• 22:51and wonderful sort of hybrid things,
• 22:53so I did some science comedy.
• 22:56Additional science exclamation point.
• 22:58So this scientist gives a 5 minute talk
• 23:01and then an improv comedy group uses
• 23:03that as a sort of audience suggestion.
• 23:08They do like a dread receptor, imagining the
• 23:11community potential there. You could do a
• 23:13lot. I haven't
• 23:14done that one. I should do that one.
• 23:17Yeah, it's run by this incredible improv
• 23:19group who was sort of made up of these very,
• 23:23very smart, very nerdy people.
• 23:24He always invited guest team.
• 23:26There was up to scientists.
• 23:27This is hilarious.
• 23:29The first one I did I talked
• 23:31about brain evolution.
• 23:33And small animals.
• 23:34I show a lot of footage of monkeys
• 23:36drinking alcohol and crows,
• 23:38making tools and animals doing
• 23:40sort of human SmartThings an this
• 23:43was great material for them, but
• 23:45I seem to remember their favorite thing
• 23:48with my accent that got a lot of.
• 23:51Yeah, that is very attention.
• 23:53Thank you. Yeah yeah they they
• 23:57made fun of that a lot so.
• 24:00So yeah, I started doing doing a lot
• 24:03of these things and I just thought.
• 24:06Initially I just thought they were fun,
• 24:08but but I also started to realize
• 24:10that they had real potential
• 24:12and let me ask you this
• 24:13then so you would publish papers before I
• 24:16mean in high impact journals like Journal
• 24:18of Neuroscience had a couple of papers
• 24:20there when you were in grad school.
• 24:22Very cool work and so I remember the
• 24:251st paper I ever published. You know,
• 24:27like you scroll by this on the computer.
• 24:29Maybe you get a hard copy and
• 24:32then you look at it.
• 24:34Like a tangible thing of all
• 24:36that work that you've done.
• 24:38How did something like that differ from.
• 24:41I think after you told your first
• 24:43story and like the types of writing
• 24:46because about similar topics,
• 24:47write your science,
• 24:49life and the science communication life.
• 24:51And how does that?
• 24:52How does that change for you?
• 24:54So I mean publishing my first paper,
• 24:56the huge deal. I know my boyfriend at
• 24:59the time got it like bound for me and a
• 25:02little thing you know, I still have it.
• 25:06It was, it was really.
• 25:07It was really special and it
• 25:08was a sort of tangible thing.
• 25:10I remember. My colleague said
• 25:11to me this is your legacy now
• 25:13you never have to have children.
• 25:15You've done this.
• 25:17I thought you. Fresh is up, but.
• 25:23When I told that first story.
• 25:26It wasn't intangible.
• 25:27I mean, there was a tangible thing.
• 25:28Actually there was a recording
• 25:30of it and it's on the podcast,
• 25:32but Walter here, but.
• 25:34It just something it changed me.
• 25:37It changed me to tell that story.
• 25:40It made me think about my research
• 25:43in a completely different way.
• 25:46And it was it connected me.
• 25:48You know, I always was interested in
• 25:50base or they called basic research.
• 25:53I was interested in just how the brain works.
• 25:56And. After I told that story,
• 26:00I became so closely connected with what
• 26:03the human impact of my work could be.
• 26:06In a way that.
• 26:07I could have written that in that
• 26:09Journal of neuroscience paper,
• 26:11but I probably wouldn't have believed it.
• 26:13I probably would have thought,
• 26:14or, you know, that's very,
• 26:15very far in the future that my research
• 26:18will ever be used to help people.
• 26:21And I became aware that I was
• 26:23doing something I was part of
• 26:25something bigger and more important,
• 26:27or something that
• 26:27struck me when I was going
• 26:29through your your papers.
• 26:31You know, like on Google Scholar is,
• 26:33you've studied many different facets
• 26:35of the human experience. Is this OK?
• 26:38OK, so head back so you studied
• 26:41many different facets of the human
• 26:44experience like studied memory, right?
• 26:46You've studied expectation behavioral
• 26:47control, emotion processing.
• 26:49I mean these are very
• 26:51different domains in it.
• 26:52It occurred to me like here's
• 26:55a person pulls a person who
• 26:58really wants to understand.
• 27:00Human experience scientifically.
• 27:02When do you feel like that was
• 27:06a larger goal or your interest
• 27:09in neuroscience or what drove
• 27:11you to change all of those to
• 27:14pursue those different topics?
• 27:16The honest answer is. Lack of.
• 27:20Understanding of how academia works.
• 27:25I already admitted this system students
• 27:27earlier today, so I don't mind missing
• 27:30it again. So the real truth is, yeah, I I.
• 27:33I was really curious about what
• 27:35makes us what makes people people,
• 27:38and I didn't really think about the
• 27:40idea that maybe having a coherent body
• 27:43of work would be a helpful thing for
• 27:46akarere, it snows suggesting using.
• 27:49Yeah, I'm suggesting is thinking here.
• 27:54But what, yeah? So it was partly not,
• 27:56but I think it was the
• 27:58underlying driver that was that.
• 28:00I just wanted to know what makes us tick
• 28:03and I wanted to know how brains worked.
• 28:06And you know, I was really influenced
• 28:09by Oliver Sacks writing when I was
• 28:11first deciding on my direction
• 28:13for the end of my undergraduate
• 28:16and beginning of Graduate School.
• 28:18You know I was given a book of Oliver
• 28:20Sacks work and and I remember reading
• 28:23that and just wanting to know how
• 28:25that happened and also being very,
• 28:27very affected by the way that he wrote.
• 28:30But I don't think I was consciously
• 28:32aware that I was affected by the way
• 28:34that he wrote until a lot later when
• 28:36I started having this storytelling
• 28:38experience myself and I understood what
• 28:41it was to communicate the process of science.
• 28:44As well as just the drive and the findings.
• 28:47So I was used to writing the introduction.
• 28:50And the.
• 28:51Like when even when we talked to read a
• 28:54scientific paper were taught to read.
• 28:57The introduction and the and the.
• 29:00Conclusions the discussion section.
• 29:01Thank you.
• 29:05More more closely then we read the
• 29:07methods and the results and the methods
• 29:10and results themselves tend to get very,
• 29:12very polished and pared down,
• 29:14and maybe shunted into a
• 29:16supplementary section of some sort.
• 29:18But one of the things I
• 29:20get asked about a lot.
• 29:21Now I'm a science communicator
• 29:23is the process of science and
• 29:25what it's like to do that.
• 29:26One of the things that I think
• 29:28people are really curious about
• 29:30is how we do what we do and
• 29:32what the thought processes that
• 29:34goes into that are those questions.
• 29:37I mean, I don't imagine that
• 29:38there are technical questions,
• 29:39but more like what is it to be a scientist?
• 29:42What does it feel like to?
• 29:44I don't study nonhuman
• 29:45primates and Seattle coin.
• 29:47How do you explain something like that?
• 29:50I try not to explain it.
• 29:53You show, Oh yes,
• 29:54that's what this program is.
• 29:56That's wonderful.
• 29:57You have that funding to
• 29:58bring high school students.
• 29:59And yeah, well,
• 30:00when you when you tell a story,
• 30:02I mean, do you go through the
• 30:05process of what it feels like like
• 30:07the day in day out in the lab?
• 30:10Yeah, so for me a story lives in the scenes.
• 30:16Start. Try forward whatever the
• 30:17the the arc of this story so the
• 30:20Oculus story really describes
• 30:22whatever part of someone's journey
• 30:24you they want to talk about,
• 30:26so that could be a whole lifetime.
• 30:30Or it could be very small moment
• 30:32like I once told a story about
• 30:34the swimming race that I did.
• 30:37Open water swimming rail system
• 30:39being raised, but still you know it
• 30:41lasted about the scope of that
• 30:43story was about 2 1/2 hours so it
• 30:45doesn't have to be along along arc,
• 30:48but within that the real power
• 30:50of his story lies in the scenes.
• 30:52Um without without real descriptive
• 30:54seems that put the listener into
• 30:56that place without a character,
• 30:58which is usually the storyteller.
• 31:00In this case, is not usually the
• 31:02main character in a personal story,
• 31:05I like to think of those scenes
• 31:07like the more vivid they are,
• 31:09the more possible it is to
• 31:11bring somebody into your world.
• 31:13So when I'm working with storytellers,
• 31:15who was scientists? I'll ask them.
• 31:18What did I look like?
• 31:19You know, what could you see?
• 31:22Who was there?
• 31:23What were you doing with your hands?
• 31:25What are the physical sensations
• 31:27in your body?
• 31:28You know so that they can describe to
• 31:30us the research setting that they're in,
• 31:33and that's so powerful 'cause
• 31:34people just don't.
• 31:35They don't know what that
• 31:37looks like. I think that's fascinating.
• 31:39So you think in scenes.
• 31:40I know some of the methods that you
• 31:43use when you were in Graduate School,
• 31:45and I can't imagine a bigger
• 31:47transition in the way you think
• 31:49from like doing MRI analysis like
• 31:51probabilistic. Like this big matrices of.
• 31:53Numbers and figuring that out too,
• 31:55like thinking in terms of scenes
• 31:58and what you do with your hands.
• 32:00They sound like completely
• 32:01different ways of thinking,
• 32:03and I'm curious how how you
• 32:05transitioned into that. But I
• 32:07think what happened is that I that I just.
• 32:11Started to become I started to gain
• 32:14mastery around storytelling in the
• 32:16same way that I'd spent all of those
• 32:18hours and all of that time to gain
• 32:21mastery around doing an MRI analysis.
• 32:23For example, like I learned to do
• 32:26those MRI studies by spending hours
• 32:29and hours and hours in the lab.
• 32:31And one of the things that I did.
• 32:33Because this is how I like to do
• 32:35things as I did everything myself,
• 32:37much to the irritation of everyone around me,
• 32:39probably.
• 32:41So I really wanted to do everything.
• 32:43I learned anesthesia so I could take care
• 32:45of the animals I learned to run the scanner.
• 32:48I learned to tune the
• 32:49coils with a screwdriver.
• 32:51I lent it.
• 32:51Yeah, I learned to do every aspect.
• 32:53I wasn't as good at some as others.
• 32:57But I wanted to do everything and I
• 32:59wanted to know about the process of
• 33:02it and back in July of last year I
• 33:05had the opportunity to do that with
• 33:07storytelling because I started to work
• 33:09for the story Collider part time as
• 33:11a producer for the New York shows.
• 33:14So I went from telling the story.
• 33:16From these couple of episodes that
• 33:18I'd had up on the stage where I
• 33:20was was actually telling my own.
• 33:22I thought it's a lot about the process
• 33:25of telling his story and I started to
• 33:27be able to show other people how to
• 33:30do that and take somebody you never
• 33:32told the story before and look for
• 33:34those things that they would need
• 33:36to do in order to tell a story and
• 33:39to help them through that process
• 33:41or to take someone who has told
• 33:431000 stories before and help them
• 33:45fit it into the scientific model.
• 33:47Little more, for example,
• 33:48because story Collider really
• 33:49is stories about science.
• 33:51Even if someone wanna scientist which.
• 33:53Is fine,
• 33:53we still want that to be something
• 33:56about science in there because
• 33:57the science is everywhere,
• 33:59so you breakdown like you take
• 34:00your reductionist approach to
• 34:02storytelling to its components,
• 34:03and then you have trainings that
• 34:05you know. People do that now
• 34:07yeah, yeah. So we also have a workshop
• 34:10program which has been a total joy
• 34:12for me to be apart of because really
• 34:15figuring out how to show people
• 34:17the process of using storytelling
• 34:19and narrative to bring their work
• 34:21to life has been really cool.
• 34:22Part of my storytelling career.
• 34:24Which which is still a side career for me.
• 34:27There's been really one of the most
• 34:30wonderful things I did and in some
• 34:32ways I think was a catalyst for
• 34:34me. Switching to doing science
• 34:36outreach in communication full time.
• 34:38I'd like to ask you more about that.
• 34:40So you described yourself as
• 34:42being very like nose to the
• 34:44grindstone like academic pathway.
• 34:45You're setting yourself up with grants,
• 34:47you got multiple grants and then.
• 34:51What what was that like sitting
• 34:53there trying to make that decision
• 34:56to stay full time research
• 34:58or bring this other aspect?
• 35:00The science communication into your life?
• 35:02Like what?
• 35:03What thoughts were going through your mind?
• 35:07I think it was probably the hardest decision.
• 35:09I'm about to break. Um?
• 35:13Night Inside science was.
• 35:15I don't want to say that science
• 35:17is my only thing in my life
• 35:19because it definitely wasn't.
• 35:21I've always been lucky enough to be
• 35:23a balanced person who likes to do
• 35:25weird things like open water swimming,
• 35:27and I've always been a musician, so I have.
• 35:30I have lots of facets to my life,
• 35:32but I chose very early on
• 35:34that science would be.
• 35:36The one.
• 35:36Um, and then I also chose really
• 35:39early on that science research.
• 35:41Active science research would be
• 35:43the way that I want.
• 35:45And I was very intentional about that,
• 35:47but and I never considered anything else.
• 35:50And so I never considered another
• 35:52type of career before.
• 35:54I loved
• 35:55tuning those coils with a screwdriver, either
• 35:57in some way is some weird way.
• 36:00I really did. No, I get it. I really did.
• 36:04You had mastery over something and you
• 36:07understood it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:10But you know that was really.
• 36:13It was such a big part of me,
• 36:15so I think the first thing for me was
• 36:17that I needed to accept that there
• 36:19are many ways to be a scientist.
• 36:22And I had told myself for a long time
• 36:24that if I wasn't tenure track faculty,
• 36:26and if I didn't have this many grants
• 36:28that I didn't have this many papers,
• 36:30then I wasn't a scientist.
• 36:33And I know that's not the case.
• 36:35Now I'm a little embarrassed by that,
• 36:38and I hope that I didn't make anyone
• 36:40feel like less of a scientist because
• 36:43they didn't have those things.
• 36:44You know, like I think I I,
• 36:47I see alot or hear a lot of
• 36:49questions from junior researchers.
• 36:51Well from people in the science
• 36:53communication field, for example,
• 36:54questioning whether they're
• 36:56scientists at all because they don't
• 36:58have all of these accolades and.
• 37:00I I realize how that's not
• 37:02important for being a scientist,
• 37:03it's important for some things,
• 37:05usually more accolades, but it's not,
• 37:07you know, to be a scientist,
• 37:09you just have to have science
• 37:11in your life and embrace it.
• 37:13And that's that's something that
• 37:14I'm never not going to have.
• 37:16So I'm always going to be.
• 37:18Scientist.
• 37:19But I think the other thing was that
• 37:21I just have always looked for a place
• 37:24where I can make a real difference and.
• 37:27I really saw science communication
• 37:29as a place where I could do that.
• 37:33In a way that was.
• 37:35Just very very different from
• 37:37from my research direction.
• 37:38My agonized over it for a long time.
• 37:41Imagine I'm not sure if I
• 37:43even know how long I had an
• 37:46iced over it six years, maybe I
• 37:48didn't. It was clearly apparent
• 37:50to everybody around me, except for me.
• 37:52By the time I made my my decision,
• 37:55people said to me, oh, you figured
• 37:58it out, then what
• 37:59sort of advice, or?
• 38:02I'm imagining imagining
• 38:03people in the Department would
• 38:04like stage interventions,
• 38:06or I don't know like trying to
• 38:08persuade you one way or another.
• 38:10I am curious what sort
• 38:12of things people said.
• 38:14On both sides.
• 38:16So I'm really I'm really fortunate
• 38:18to have great colleagues,
• 38:19so by and large they did tell me how
• 38:22much they wanted me to stay. Um and.
• 38:25I didn't take that any other way than
• 38:28the way that I think it was intended,
• 38:31which is that they wanted to have
• 38:32me as a colleague and and would
• 38:34miss me if I left the field.
• 38:36An and in fact I'm really lucky in that
• 38:39long after I left the field I still
• 38:42have had people ask me to come back,
• 38:45so I've had multiple opportunities
• 38:47to think about.
• 38:48My decision and decide whether
• 38:50it was the right one for me.
• 38:52And that's been really helpful for me.
• 38:54I did.
• 38:55There was a little bit of me
• 38:57that thought that when I left,
• 38:59that would be it and I wouldn't have
• 39:01the opportunity to go back. It
• 39:03sounds scary and
• 39:04there's a junior trainee
• 39:05right now that takes a
• 39:07lot of guts. Yeah, yeah it does.
• 39:09And I also realized that that
• 39:11isn't that cut and dried.
• 39:13And there was definitely way for me
• 39:16to go back if I wanted to do that.
• 39:19And there was a way for me
• 39:21to stay involved as well,
• 39:22which is the route that I chose
• 39:24was to hopefully stay involved
• 39:25in the research in some way.
• 39:27I'm and I'm also lucky enough to
• 39:29be in an Institute where there's a
• 39:31ton of amazing research going on.
• 39:33And so that's that's also been a nice
• 39:35way for me to keep my connection.
• 39:37You know, I go to a lot of science talks.
• 39:40I still give them occasionally when I can.
• 39:43So yeah, that's that's been kind of nice.
• 39:45I thought it would be all or nothing,
• 39:47and that's not the case,
• 39:49but I also had a lot of people who I
• 39:51think really recognized that that was
• 39:53something that I had a real talent for.
• 39:56I mean,
• 39:56science communication by that, or
• 39:58both. I think you've adopted.
• 40:01Yeah, no, definitely
• 40:02yeah so but but for every colleague
• 40:04who wanted me to stay, sometimes even
• 40:06the same colleague would also save.
• 40:08I really see that this that this is
• 40:10the right thing for you to do and that
• 40:12you're going to be great at doing this.
• 40:15And one person said, oh, you got out.
• 40:19You made it. Good for you.
• 40:25So but now, yeah, I don't
• 40:27know it made the world seem
• 40:28a lot more fun for a while.
• 40:30I think there was a bit of me that
• 40:32just thought I can't leave because
• 40:33if I leave then then that's it.
• 40:35I close that door.
• 40:37Um, I think I was kidding myself about that.
• 40:40I think I think that that is a much more
• 40:43fluid world now than than it used to be, and.
• 40:46I could be wrong.
• 40:49But I feel I feel like I can
• 40:51have the connection to the
• 40:53research and I can I can do this,
• 40:56but you know,
• 40:57the one thing that was clear
• 40:58as I couldn't keep doing both
• 41:01at the same level of intensity as I had been.
• 41:04Yeah, I remember you were interviewed
• 41:06after you received a Science Educator
• 41:08award from the Dana Foundation and
• 41:10you talked about how you were trying
• 41:12to encourage people to be science
• 41:14communicators and saying that you do
• 41:16in your spare time if you have two and.
• 41:19It really impressed me 'cause I
• 41:21felt like in that comment you are.
• 41:25At telling a story about how much of your
• 41:28spare time went into this at one point.
• 41:32How did you?
• 41:33How did you balance that 'cause you were
• 41:35telling stories you were writing this blog?
• 41:38You were, you know,
• 41:39be involved with this community
• 41:41and also still running a lab.
• 41:44Yeah, um. Probably quite badly, I think.
• 41:48I don't know if I don't
• 41:50know if I balanced it well,
• 41:52it would definitely wasn't sustainable
• 41:54at the level that I was doing it at.
• 41:58Broadly speaking,
• 41:58I found it useful to only take on one
• 42:01science communication project at once.
• 42:02So if I was working on a story,
• 42:05I would try not to be writing
• 42:07blog posts at the same time.
• 42:09And if I was writing a nerd night talk,
• 42:12then I would try and wait before
• 42:13I did a science comedy event.
• 42:16Brain Awareness Week was always
• 42:17the exception to that rule.
• 42:19Some Brain Awareness Week.
• 42:20I invariably did something everyday.
• 42:22Um, and that's just because I think that's
• 42:25such a valuable week for neuroscience,
• 42:28essentially.
• 42:30But I the reason that I said that was
• 42:33not just because I actually don't think
• 42:35that people should have to do science
• 42:38communication work in their spare time,
• 42:40if there.
• 42:41Full-time researchers I think I think that.
• 42:46It could easily be the case that people
• 42:48with a talent science communication could.
• 42:50That could be our service work.
• 42:53Oh interesting,
• 42:54yeah.
• 42:54So you know,
• 42:55I used to spend some of proportion
• 42:57of my time teaching and sitting on
• 43:00thesis committees and and doing
• 43:02all of that valuable good stuff.
• 43:04Admissions committees and hiring
• 43:05committees and and it would have been
• 43:08very helpful for me if I could have
• 43:11contributed to my academic career.
• 43:13While I was doing the science
• 43:14communication work instead of it
• 43:15being so clearly something that
• 43:17had to be done in my spare time.
• 43:19Do you know institutions
• 43:20that support that in the way,
• 43:22like as a former professional services?
• 43:25What you're suggesting?
• 43:26Yeah, right? That's then
• 43:27considered as part of your tenure.
• 43:30You know promotion packet
• 43:32or whatever it's called.
• 43:33Yes OK yeah.
• 43:35Exactly I institutions do that now.
• 43:38I don't know. It is my honest answer.
• 43:41It wasn't something that
• 43:42I looked into in like, oh,
• 43:44I wonder if I went to this place,
• 43:46would that be the case?
• 43:48So actually that it is possible
• 43:50that some institutions do do that.
• 43:52And I do think somebody asked me
• 43:53earlier today if I thought it was
• 43:56possible that that would become so
• 43:57in the future or become more more
• 43:59widely accepted in the future.
• 44:01And I think that is possible as well.
• 44:03I think as we continue to see
• 44:05the value and the importance
• 44:06of communicating science with,
• 44:08I mean the public is a big.
• 44:11Founder of science.
• 44:13Sandra science yeah. So you
• 44:16know, communicating with people
• 44:18who make policy decisions.
• 44:20For example, be communicating
• 44:21with the future scientists.
• 44:23It is. It's not just.
• 44:27Supplemental is essential if we,
• 44:28if we are to have science funding
• 44:30or if we have a future science
• 44:32and then we have to do it.
• 44:33So I think we're starting to
• 44:35see that now more than ever,
• 44:37and so I hope that that will be the
• 44:39case in the future so that people who
• 44:41want to do this can make it truly
• 44:43part of their lives and not feel
• 44:45as if they have to choose so much.
• 44:47But the reason that I make that
• 44:49point is because a lot of people ask
• 44:51me how I made this career switch,
• 44:53'cause there are many people who would
• 44:55like to make this switch from research.
• 44:57You know, maybe they're finishing the PhD,
• 44:59or they're in a post Doc now and
• 45:01they want to switch to doing science,
• 45:03communication,
• 45:03or outreach.
• 45:04And the question of how I did that.
• 45:07Is a tricky one and I didn't have a usual
• 45:09route into that because a lot of people
• 45:12make this decision at the end of a PhD.
• 45:14There are fellowships available
• 45:16that they can take on.
• 45:17Um but they.
• 45:20Yeah,
• 45:21no,
• 45:22everybody makes that decision right then
• 45:23and there and it's a lot of pressure to say,
• 45:26OK,
• 45:26I've finished my PhD and these
• 45:28things are available to me and I've
• 45:30gotta go take that fellowship or
• 45:31that internship or whatever it is.
• 45:33Ann,
• 45:33and you know,
• 45:34in some ways I was alleviated
• 45:36all of that by not even realizing
• 45:39that science communication was a
• 45:40thing until I was in my second
• 45:42post Doc and well into my 30s and
• 45:44so at that point I could only
• 45:47do it by working on in my spare
• 45:50time and making connections.
• 45:52And I was lucky in many ways that I was
• 45:55in New York City and I was in such a vibrant,
• 45:59supportive community.
• 46:00But I also have never known such a
• 46:03supportive community in general as
• 46:06the global science communication.
• 46:09And outreach community.
• 46:10I mean,
• 46:11I just I just found so many
• 46:13people lifted me up in so many
• 46:15ways and that I was able to do
• 46:17that for other people. People
• 46:19want to get in touch with you
• 46:20or exposed to more of your
• 46:22stories or your writing. Where
• 46:24could they reach you?
• 46:25Thank you so much for having me.
• 46:27It's been a pleasure if you
• 46:28want to hear more from me then
• 46:30you can follow me at Pollock
• 46:32rocks and on all of the things.
• 46:34And you can also check out more
• 46:36about the soccer Membrane Institute
• 46:37which is a common brain and you
• 46:39can also follow the story Collider.
• 46:41At Story Collider,
• 46:42an if you have a story to tell
• 46:45and you think that you might want
• 46:47to tell it on one of our stages,
• 46:49you can pictures at stories
• 46:51at storycollider.org.
• 46:52Excellent thank you. Thank you very
• 46:53much, thank you.
• 47:06We hope you enjoyed that episode.
• 47:08Thanks again to Paula for
• 47:09being on the podcast.
• 47:11It was such a treat, interviewing
• 47:13and spending some time with her.
• 47:14You can find Paul on Twitter at
• 47:16Pollack Rocks and again, that's at.
• 47:18Pollock rocks, and you can also visit
• 47:20her website whichispaulacroxson.com.
• 47:22She has a couple of different profile pages,
• 47:25one at Mount Sinai and another
• 47:27at Columbia University.
• 47:29You can also find her work on
• 47:31Google Scholar and see some of
• 47:33the really cool science she talks
• 47:35about during our conversation.
• 47:37Thanks to the Yale School of Medicine
• 47:40for sponsoring the podcast to
• 47:42Adrian Bottom Burger for producing
• 47:44the podcast and Ryan McEvoy for
• 47:46his Awesome Help Sound editing.
• 47:48A special thanks to you for listening
• 47:50and again my name is Daniel Baron.
• 47:52I've been your host and will see you
• 47:54next time here on science at all.