Child Study Center Grand Rounds 02.23.2021

March 23, 2021

The Spiritual Lives of Children and Youth Reflecting on Violence

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00:00Tomorrow. We are honored today to
00:03have the Reverend Doctor Amelia,
00:07right, as a guest speaker who will
00:10gift us with her lecture entitled The
00:13Spiritual Lives of Children and Youth,
00:17reflecting on violence,
00:18joy resistance and Hope.
00:20Reverend Doctor Wright is the
00:23associate professor of religious
00:25education at Yale Divinity School.
00:27Her Reacher research focuses
00:29on African American religion,
00:31womanist spirituality.
00:32Adolescent spiritual development and the
00:35intersections of religion and public life.
00:38She is the author of
00:40numerous books and articles.
00:42One of her most recent monographs include the
00:46spiritual lives of young African Americans.
00:49Published by Oxford University Press.
00:52She is currently finishing a
00:54larger project on activists,
00:56educators that outlines the radical
00:59dimensions of the African American religion,
01:02and.
01:02Education throughout the 20th century.
01:06Prior to her arrival at Yale,
01:08Reverend Doctor Wright served four
01:10years as assistant professor of
01:12Religion and youth ministry at
01:15Pfeiffer University and before that
01:17as a visiting faculty member and
01:19teaching assistant at the Candler
01:21School of Theology at Emory University.
01:24Her lifelong commitment to community,
01:27activism and education is
01:30inspirational to many.
01:33There at Emory,
01:34she served as program director
01:36of the Wisdom of Youth Projects
01:38and in various positions with the
01:41Youth Theological Initiative.
01:43Reverend Doctor Wright completed her
01:46doctoral studies at Emory University.
01:49She also studied at Harvard
01:51University Divinity School,
01:53where she concentrated on
01:55religion and culture and history
01:57of biblical interpretation.
01:59She earned a Masters of
02:01teaching at Simmons College,
02:03and if that were not enough,
02:06she earned a Bachelors of Science
02:09in Electrical Engineering.
02:10At MIT.
02:14He is an ordained minister of the
02:17American Baptist Churches and has
02:19served on a ministerial staff of
02:21various other churches from Cambridge,
02:24MA to the Stone to Stone Mountain, GA.
02:28Will you please help me welcome
02:30the Reverend Doctor right to the
02:33Yale Child study Center. Thank you.
02:39Wow, thank you so much for that.
02:44Introduction An that welcome.
02:45It is truly my honor and
02:47privilege to be with you all.
02:49Today I'm going to share my
02:51screen in a second here,
02:52but I also just wanted to say thank
02:54you so much for the invitation from
02:57Doctor Liberal and from Doctor
02:59Martin and from from Rosemary
03:00Sarah for really like kind of
03:02navigating and helping to put all
03:04this pull this all together and
03:06so I appreciate all of you for
03:09this time that we will share.
03:13Let me see, let me going to
03:15share my screen here already.
03:16Now, for today we're going to try to do
03:19some heavy lifting and I have a very
03:21ambitious idea that we're going to talk
03:23about the spiritual lives of children
03:25and youth reflecting on violence,
03:27hope, resistance and joy.
03:28And so I'm going to start trying to just
03:31give us a little bit of an overview.
03:33And so I've got 2,
03:35maybe three goals for our time together,
03:37so I want us to explore recent
03:39research on spirituality in the lives
03:41of children and youth and also.
03:42And an in intersections a little
03:45bit intersections with health
03:46an with human development.
03:47And I also want to offer a case study of
03:50two African American teens and young adults.
03:54One I interviewed with 16 One Med
03:56as older adults and their cases
03:58are going to help us explore the
04:00connection between their spirituality
04:02and their ability to address social
04:04and emotional concerns.
04:05So again,
04:06I am truly honored to be with you all
04:09this afternoon I was both excited by
04:12the invitation to share my research,
04:14but also a little.
04:16Unnerved,
04:16I don't know how many of you get to
04:18come and talk at the Divinity school.
04:21But it's rare that we have these
04:23conversations across disciplines
04:24and even across schools here
04:25at yield at Yale University.
04:26Even though there's a wealth of
04:28resources and a wealth of rich overlap
04:30and a lot of the work that we're doing.
04:33So I'm excited to have this
04:34opportunity to share with you,
04:36but also recognize that this,
04:37you know, this is a little bit
04:39of a exciting part for me,
04:41and I'm excited to see where the the
04:43collaborations can go from this.
04:45Now I study.
04:46Spirituality or the spiritual
04:48eyes of adolescents in the US.
04:49In particular,
04:50I study the spirituality of African
04:53American youth and children and the
04:55ways that they connect or disconnect
04:57their spirituality from other areas
04:59of their lives and for years I have
05:01wrestled with trying to unpack the
05:03complicated and multilayered ways
05:05that spirituality functions in the
05:07lives of adolescents and children.
05:09And so while most of my research is
05:11qualitative and I'll be talking about
05:14couple of the qualitative interviews.
05:16Where interview groups of
05:17adolescents and young adults,
05:18primarily between the ages of 12 and
05:2118 with a few younger and a few older
05:23for a couple of different studies.
05:26And then also I have had
05:27other research projects,
05:28the ones that will be sharing from
05:30today where I pay attention to
05:32some young adults as I'm following
05:34their lives of some young people
05:37to do some more longitudinal work,
05:38but also to look at the types of
05:41choices or outcomes or narrative.
05:43Even that they make moving forward
05:45in their lives and how.
05:46You know those things intersect
05:48with their spirituality,
05:49so life outcomes an intersection
05:51with with spirituality.
05:52But in general I want to also share
05:55just some footnote kind of background
05:57information for things that if you
06:00are more interested in that,
06:02you want to further explore about the
06:04more quantitative side or the growing
06:06interest between the quantitative
06:08side of this work and the clinical
06:10science behind the connection between
06:12spirituality and children and adolescents
06:14and their overall development.
06:16In particular, I would commend
06:19to you several studies.
06:21Which hopefully you are also aware
06:23of some of these already from people
06:25like Lisa Miller down at Columbia
06:28University and other developmental
06:30psychologist on spirituality and thriving.
06:32There's a Center for thriving and
06:35youth spirituality out at Fuller.
06:37And like folks like Pam Epstein,
06:39King an out of this body of research,
06:42researchers have found statistically
06:44significant links between spirituality
06:46and health outcomes for youth.
06:48For example,
06:48from some of Doctor Millers
06:51or research down at Columbia.
06:53She showed that children who have a positive,
06:56active relationship to spirituality are
06:5740% less likely to use or abuse substances,
07:00or 60% less likely to be depressed
07:03as teenagers are 80% less likely to
07:05have dangerous or unprotected *** have
07:07significant more positive markers,
07:09and we can see here the list kind of
07:11goes on in terms of the connections
07:14between spirituality and some of these
07:16positive outcomes that are cultivated
07:18or nurtured in early childhood.
07:20Now of course, part of the work.
07:23All these decades of research and
07:25part of even what I'm really trying
07:28to share here today,
07:29is has also been to push for more precise
07:33definitions of what we mean by spirituality.
07:35We write or talk about spirituality and
07:38thus to see how we can study it or house.
07:42It connects with, say,
07:43positive youth development or
07:45with human development in general.
07:47And of course,
07:48in much the quantitative research
07:50are used in psychology.
07:51Or you can hear development.
07:53They've worked for years and years and
07:55years just to come up with a basic
07:58definition and so one of the basic
08:00definitions or generic definitions of
08:02spirituality is a general sense of.
08:04A general sense of relationship or
08:06an inner sense of relationship to
08:08a higher power and higher power.
08:11Of course,
08:11we broadly defined it could be God.
08:13It could be the divine.
08:15It could be nature, the transcendent,
08:17but it's an inner sense of relationship
08:19to a higher power that is loving and guiding.
08:22And the reason you know some of this
08:24when you look at a one line definition,
08:27you're like Oh yeah, that makes sense.
08:29But it's also interesting that it's
08:31taken so long and studies to try
08:34to figure out.
08:35Precisely what we could look at
08:37generically so that we can look across
08:39religious traditions across different people,
08:41and to think about what spirituality is
08:44when we're studying it and its connection.
08:46Just human development.
08:47But the other side of this is that
08:51we also have to make more precise
08:54definitions of spirituality,
08:55because we're seeing that their actual
08:58distinctives are differences between
09:00what we come to know as spirituality,
09:02an actual involvement in,
09:04say,
09:05religious tradition or organized religion,
09:07and often they overlap.
09:08But they're not always the same,
09:11and so even some of the ways that
09:14we're thinking about religious
09:16identity or spirituality.
09:18May not track as well,
09:19and so one of the things also from
09:21a lot of the quantitative research
09:23which I draw upon heavily and that I
09:26tease out in some of my own research,
09:28is the reality that actually.
09:31Spirituality or a positive understanding
09:33or spiritual health is what actually has
09:35the positive outcomes in peoples life.
09:38It may or may not actually be a
09:40rigid adherence to or membership
09:42in a religious organization.
09:44We could talk a little bit more
09:47about why that's different or
09:49how that works out there.
09:52Now also it's important for us
09:54today to really think about for
09:56me like the different places
09:58where a lot of the background.
10:00It comes from and so also in addition
10:02to say the work is happening in
10:05spirituality and human development.
10:06There's also a lot of work that's
10:09been more recent or not actually
10:11within the last I say reason within
10:13like the last decade where you've
10:15also had sociologists of religion,
10:17is also trying to study youth,
10:19religiosity,
10:19and so other folks that might come
10:21into your folks like Christian Smith,
10:23who's now at Notre Dame.
10:25But he conducted one of the only
10:27longitudinal studies of youth,
10:29religiosity in American context
10:30and among American teens.
10:32And So what we found there with
10:34Christian Smith is that we were
10:36looking at an he was talking about.
10:38Young people who he claimed were really
10:40not actually very good at, quote unquote.
10:42The religious traditions that
10:44they were being brought up in.
10:46And of course,
10:47you know you don't like that.
10:49That language so much,
10:50and parents were, like, you know,
10:52know what are we doing?
10:54But he found that most of them
10:56were practicing what he can't
10:57came to name as moralistic.
10:59Therapeutic deism.
11:00And so there an this was across tradition.
11:02Again, like they could be moralistic,
11:04therapeutic deists choose,
11:05they could be moralistic.
11:07Therapeutic, Deism,
11:07Muslim Buddhist,
11:08Christian Protestant Catholics.
11:09But that was the dominant kind of
11:11way that these young people were
11:13approaching their understandings
11:14of God in their language,
11:16and what he also found out when
11:18they were interviewing on the
11:20surveys that these teenagers an.
11:22And young adolescents were often.
11:25Not very articulate about
11:28their religious traditions.
11:30But more pressing or more interesting
11:32is that they also weren't very deviant
11:35from their religious city or the
11:37religious traditions of their parents.
11:39So what he saw and what he found is
11:41that the spiritual lives of young
11:44people are the religious excuse me,
11:46affiliations and beliefs and patterns
11:48and practices of young people
11:50tracked and paralleled very closely
11:52to what their parents were doing,
11:54and that of course was interesting
11:56for us to kind of.
11:58We kind of knew that anecdotally,
12:00but to have some data to support that,
12:03because it also tells us about
12:05where are places of
12:06intervention or where are places of kind of
12:09resourcing or offering resources for people.
12:11Now of course I would love to say that I
12:14figured out how to help all parents and
12:17practitioners and young people themselves
12:19to tap into and reap the positive
12:21benefits of spirituality with none of
12:23the baggage of organized religion or the
12:25perceived baggage of organized religion.
12:27But I've not done that.
12:29That that, you know,
12:30I would not necessarily need
12:32to come to work anymore.
12:33I'd figured all of that out,
12:35but instead my research has actually taken
12:37me into some slightly different places and
12:40different starting points and questions.
12:42In particular,
12:43much of the language and focus,
12:45even on personal spirituality
12:47is a little bit.
12:48It was a little bit jarring for me,
12:51partly because I start from a more
12:54communal understanding of spirituality
12:56and a more communal orientation to
12:59questions around spirituality and what
13:01the function of spirituality is for.
13:03So however,
13:04even though I understand you know
13:07approach to to personal spirituality
13:10as being important for me,
13:12my starting place is with the
13:16lives of young African Americans
13:18an so my research starts with.
13:22The experience of black or
13:24African American youth Ann,
13:26while I've noted.
13:29That there is an increased
13:30research on and in research on
13:32spirituality and health outcomes and
13:34spirituality and positive outcomes.
13:36More research by the way still needs
13:38to be done specifically on black youth
13:40and their spirituality and mental
13:42health and other health outcomes.
13:44And so I'm approaching this task
13:46not as a medical clinic clinician,
13:49but as a practical theologian,
13:50Anna religious educator,
13:51and so much of my work entails
13:54just wrestling with.
13:56Uhm?
13:56It entails wrestling with with
14:00what the outcomes?
14:02For black youth might be
14:04and who are spiritual,
14:06and who are parts religious,
14:07but also how to just better describe
14:10what their spirituality looks like.
14:12And so I've been researching and
14:14interviewing and doing surveys with black
14:17youth and children for the last 15 years,
14:19decade and a half or so.
14:21And what's interesting is that I often
14:24find that these young people who in
14:27my samples and general population
14:29of black youth their daily bombarded
14:30with the realities of systemic and
14:33structural racism and structural oppression.
14:35An often these are intersecting
14:36realities with poverty,
14:37with violence,
14:38with unequal access to resources such as
14:40good health care or education and so forth.
14:43And while interviewing
14:44youth and young adults,
14:46for whom these factors are at play,
14:48I start simply by asking them
14:50to describe their lives,
14:51to tell me what's going on for them,
14:54but also to tell me what concerns them.
14:57About their their lives or friend groups,
14:59their families,
15:00the church communities and
15:02the world in general.
15:04But I also asked them to describe anything.
15:10That they saw as a resource within
15:13themselves within their friend groups
15:16within their church communities
15:18within their spirituality's an.
15:20And and what I saw or what we found
15:23when we're doing this initial research
15:25into my initial research being
15:27conducted about 10 years ago,
15:29we started and tracked and did interviews
15:31and some more qualitative kind of open-ended
15:34surveys with with young young people,
15:36young black people starting in 2009
15:38through 2011 was the first initials part,
15:41and then carried on throughout the
15:44publication of the book in 2017.
15:46But what we found was this interesting
15:48trend among African American youth and
15:51primarily Christian youth in my research
15:53was that they tend to fragment or
15:56disconnect their religious ideas from
15:58social concerns or their experiences
16:00with problems like racism and injustice.
16:02In other words,
16:03all of the youth could name things
16:05that they were concerned about
16:07in their own lives and families
16:10and communities and so forth,
16:12but they often did not directly connect
16:14on what they were concerned with.
16:17To their religious practices
16:20or beliefs and impart.
16:23What was interesting for me,
16:24why that raised a flag or why that
16:27was problematic was because we could
16:29see in black youth and their trends
16:32and we talk about the data out there
16:35where there's a tire tendency for
16:37them to be religiously affiliated
16:38than their white counterparts or
16:40a higher tendency for religion
16:42and faith and spirituality to be
16:44part of the cultural landscape as
16:46opposed to some other groups.
16:48But they were not necessarily seen it as
16:51a resource or naming it as a resource.
16:53To kind of help them think through
16:55or work through or address major
16:57issues like racism or violence or
16:59many of the things that were kind
17:01of coming up for them as they are
17:03keeping them up at night or or
17:05things they were wrestling with.
17:07Now so.
17:10So we had to shift to try to figure out
17:14what do we make of that disconnect.
17:16And also because I knew the research on
17:19the positive like outcomes of spiritual
17:21development for black youth wanting them
17:24to really tap into that in a different way.
17:27And so trying to figure out what.
17:29How do we really help young people?
17:31And so for me, though I had to also shift.
17:37Research wise, not just to to figure
17:38out where the interventions were,
17:40but to kind of step back a moment
17:42to begin to wrestle with what's
17:44going on for young people.
17:45How do I listen better to what
17:47they're describing or what?
17:49What's there and so today I'm going
17:51to share those two case studies that
17:53are going to help us think through.
17:55So the first one is of a young
17:57woman named Kira.
17:58And by the way, this is not cure.
18:00For all intents and purposes,
18:02we have to keep her identity private,
18:04but this is also just a
18:05phenomenal picture profile.
18:06A bit of a.
18:08Brilliant young woman by really young.
18:12Artist and photographer but with Kira.
18:15I remember interviewing this young
18:17woman that will call Kira and when
18:20I first met her she was 16 years
18:22old and she was a rising high
18:25school junior Horizon High school.
18:26Yes,
18:27right?
18:27So Junior Anne Kira was and she
18:30remains 'cause we kept contact
18:31an amazing human being and she
18:34grew up in Florida in a community
18:36that was fairly impoverished.
18:37Ann had relatively high crime
18:39rates and he even as we have
18:41seen trends across the nation of
18:43violent crime and other crimes
18:45trending downward since the 1990s.
18:47Kyra's community was still.
18:48If you know in her language,
18:50little rough and so her parents
18:52were divorced when she was young.
18:54She lived with her mother who was
18:56a pastor and had started a church
18:59in their home and her schools had
19:01been labeled failing and many
19:03of her teachers were afraid to
19:05push too hard in her language or
19:07to try too much because it might
19:10attract more negative attention
19:12to an already bad situation.
19:14And so Kira was very aware of the
19:16perceptions of her community.
19:18And she was also attuned to the cycles
19:20of violence and death around her.
19:22And she recounted one set
19:24of incidents vividly.
19:26She wrote we were coming home from
19:28church and saw a whole bunch of police
19:30and everything and I just overlooked
19:32it and when I got to school it was
19:34like Michelle got shot in the head.
19:36But I think people get so used to hearing
19:39about death that they become numb.
19:41So it wasn't any coming
19:43together to cry and moan.
19:44It wasn't that it was.
19:46Just like here we're going to put
19:47up a big old piece of paper and give
19:50a shout out to Michelle Miss you.
19:55An but then after that another girl got shot.
19:59Walking home but she.
20:00I did that so people get so
20:02used to hearing about death,
20:04especially young death being at
20:06the wrong place at the wrong time.
20:08There wasn't any remorse.
20:09It's nothing like that.
20:10Let's come together and
20:12if I don't watch out,
20:13I kind of get numb to it too.
20:18Now I remember in this interview when
20:20I was there 'cause this is one that
20:22I was doing in person myself and I
20:24remember being brought up short while
20:26listening to cure and to her concerns
20:28about people getting used to death and
20:30her concern that she might become numb.
20:32Also an wrestling with again,
20:33you know a million thoughts are
20:35always going through your mind as
20:36you're interviewing a young person,
20:38but trying to, you know stick to the
20:40protocol and I remember following
20:41through with the protocol and I had
20:43to ask you the questions of OK,
20:45what are the resources?
20:46So this is something you're concerned about.
20:48What are the resources?
20:49In your community, Ann.
20:51I asked her, you know,
20:52how did she resist becoming numb?
20:54How did she work through or watch
20:56out for becoming known to?
20:58And amazingly, and somewhat unexpectantly.
21:00She said she actively witnessed in
21:03more conservative religious or often
21:05Christian tradition witnessing.
21:06Is this idea of its user refers
21:09to the practice of sharing one's
21:11faith beliefs with another person,
21:14often an acquaintance,
21:15sometimes a stranger,
21:16and Keira stated that she witnessed as
21:19as an attempt to build community and to
21:23show her friends that they were loved.
21:26Now of course,
21:27as I listened an after later analyzed.
21:30Their interview I had to move beyond my
21:33preconceptions and the history of witnessing,
21:35because Kira's main message to her
21:37friends was that there was more to life
21:40than what was immediately around them.
21:42That there were more to life than
21:44failing schools and effective
21:45teachers cycles of death.
21:47Every tally,
21:47a shanan more death Anne and what was
21:50interesting for me as I interviewed here,
21:52is that I could see that the
21:55gloom and doom was not the most
21:57significant part of her story,
21:59but she also exuded this type of joy.
22:02And positive energy that I could not
22:04quite figure out and and honestly,
22:06you know there's we have test
22:07in an ways that we think about
22:09assessing her spirituality,
22:10but there's something in there
22:12that were like is this just
22:14part of her DNA is part of this,
22:16how her spirituality was
22:17nurtured and cultivated.
22:18And as I listened to Kira,
22:20I encountered a young woman whose faith
22:22was so strong and he was hoping God
22:24was so secure that all of the gloom
22:27around her seemed to pale in comparison.
22:29Now of course I will just be honest with you.
22:32My suspicious analytical critical thinking
22:34academic self wondered if cure was
22:36just buying into some pie in the Sky.
22:38We have all our theories about what
22:41religion or spirituality might be from
22:43a negative or positive perspective.
22:44An I wondered if you know.
22:47If it was truly empowering,
22:48if there were some truly helpful kind of.
22:52Result for her.
22:54For her immediate context an
22:55you know what the benefits were,
22:58and so even as she was talking,
23:00though and I had to kind of pay
23:03attention to or wrestle with the
23:05reality that what she was articulating
23:08was something about joy and hope.
23:10Hope that might keep her,
23:12you know, kind of moving forward.
23:15And so I had to begin to listen
23:17and analyze her kind of her
23:20narrative in her interviews afresh.
23:22And so instead of prescribing how or
23:24kind of coming in with preconceptions
23:26about how I thought she would react,
23:28or how young people are responding
23:30to to violence around them,
23:32one of the things that I had to
23:34learn to do was listening to folks
23:37like here and listen to key refresh
23:39and to see the possibilities in her
23:42spiritual and theological reflections,
23:43and to discern what theological
23:45and spiritual truths.
23:46And practices were emerging for her.
23:49And so in other things we also
23:51to look at Kira.
23:52Spirituality at questions about Ciara
23:54spirituality and Kira honestly kept
23:56challenging me and kept challenging
23:58my assumptions and reminded me of
24:00the power for her like that was
24:01for her hope was his major concept
24:03and the power of hope and the
24:05power of faith and spirituality
24:07and community building in the face
24:09of violence and poverty and other
24:11innumerable injustices that many
24:12of us will never fully understand
24:14and will fully never experience.
24:16And so even as I follow,
24:18you know my interview transcript and
24:20asked her about her understanding
24:21of the role of the Church of God.
24:24Her community in the world.
24:25I kind of expected uncertainty or
24:27nihill ISM 'cause that's often what
24:29you'll get with teenagers were not sure.
24:30I'm not doing a lot of the transcripts
24:32of the interviews we peppered with.
24:34Like maybe I don't know what God's work is,
24:37or I don't know what my work is.
24:39Their care was different. She boldly said.
24:43You know she had this quote.
24:44She's like we're vessels we're
24:45just vessels and if we want to
24:47see a difference in the world,
24:49we gotta leader,
24:50let God work through us fully and take
24:52the limits off to go all the way out.
24:54We've gotta let God fully
24:55use us to let change happen.
24:57That was curious idea we would have
24:59to take the limits off and to go
25:01all the way out in that moment.
25:03In some ways I was floored based on kind
25:05of like what I was hearing from her.
25:07But her narrow,
25:08her narrative has stuck with me over
25:10the years and stands out even among
25:12lot of the research that I've done.
25:14In part because what Kira was doing
25:17in this moment was also pushing
25:19for an alternative vision of life.
25:21That didn't start with with with
25:24violence that didn't see that as like
25:27the major framing or category and she
25:29talked about things like abundant life
25:31and not like a material prosperity or
25:34things like that or individual advancement.
25:36But she was talking about a communal kind
25:39of concern for people for their souls.
25:42For a connection to the divine and the
25:45ability to live peaceably in community.
25:47And so,
25:48Interestingly,
25:49you know cure was pushing me.
25:51So really kind of play with categories
25:53like hope and how hope was a tool
25:56of resistance or think about hope
25:58and joy as a tool of like spiritual
26:01resistance to a lot of these social.
26:03An psychological difference that
26:04these young people were were
26:06kind of encountering as well,
26:07and so of course as I listen to Kyra.
26:10And when you do interviews like this,
26:13especially with qualitative work,
26:14you often end up with more
26:16questions than you have answers.
26:18And so her interviews and other
26:20interviews like hers started pushing me.
26:22To have to wrestle with,
26:24what would it look like for us to have?
26:28African American young people
26:29who were more like here,
26:30Anan what I meant like this was that who?
26:33What would it look like for Keras
26:35narrative in her connection and
26:36understanding of like spirituality
26:37and its ability to kind of reduce
26:40this type of hope to be more
26:41of the norm and not an anomaly.
26:43And I also do wrestle with like you know,
26:46are we even thinking in those terms in
26:48terms of like how we help parents or
26:50how we help clinicians or how we tell
26:52educators to even push young people
26:54to kind of tap into these resources
26:56and whether or not we want to.
26:58I think there's a.
26:59Enough baggage and enough suspicion
27:01around spirituality and an
27:03organized religion that often.
27:05Even me who studies it all the time.
27:08We're kind of left surprised when
27:10we see this type of spirituality
27:12functioning so prominently in the
27:14lives of youth and young adults.
27:16So.
27:18She has an idea of taking off the limits,
27:21but let's look at the next case
27:23study so the next case study is
27:25a young man named Nile,
27:27and this actually is now because I
27:29interviewed him and we've collaborated
27:30on a couple of different images and he's
27:33now I think he's a PhD student at Princeton,
27:35so I don't know Doctor Liberal.
27:37If you came across him in
27:39some of your work as well,
27:40but he is a fellow Princeton
27:42seminary graduate, but Niall,
27:43I first interviewed him years later,
27:45years after I had interviewed Cura,
27:47but part of the same project because.
27:49I interviewed him trying to look for.
27:54Kind of models if you will,
27:56or young adults who and young people
27:58who had kind of grown up like Keira
28:01but also to kind of see if there
28:03were other young people who were
28:05also kind of modeling this type of
28:07integration of their spirituality.
28:09And they work around justice or modeling.
28:11This this kind of.
28:13Very thoughtful, but engaged.
28:15Communal spirituality and now was
28:16recommended to me for this work
28:18and now identified himself as an
28:20activist when I first interviewed him.
28:21I think he was 22 when I interviewed an.
28:24He noted though that he did not
28:26become political or even engaging
28:28with this kind of work until he
28:30was in Graduate School,
28:31so it wasn't something that you know,
28:33like he was his activist
28:35kid from say 12 years
28:36old always. But he did note that
28:38he was paying attention to two
28:40different things that he had been
28:42raised in an environment to note.
28:44Injustices to note when
28:45people were being bullied,
28:46to know you know what was happening
28:48to be really attentive to that.
28:50In so for me, Interestingly enough,
28:53Nile writes and talks a lot
28:56about the the way that for him.
28:59It was Mike Brown in Ferguson that
29:02was kind of the turning point and and
29:04and back in 2014 that was one of the
29:07shooting death of Michael Brown in
29:09Ferguson Mo was one of the turning
29:12point events for him where he began
29:14to think about how am I going to be
29:17intentional about being an activist
29:19or intentional about really thinking
29:21about what my spirituality might look like?
29:24In in a larger conversation with
29:26with communal Justice, Anan work,
29:27and so, Interestingly enough,
29:29my now spoke candidly about the impact of
29:31Michael Brown's death on him on his life.
29:33An on the reality that he was just angry.
29:36He was full of rage.
29:38He didn't know what to do with his body.
29:40He didn't know what to do,
29:42and so he got on the bus and went
29:45to Ferguson,
29:46Mo with some other graduate students
29:47and some other folks from seminary,
29:49and they went and they protested.
29:51They March in the street,
29:53which is where you have this.
29:55This picture here,
29:56but later as he was reflecting
29:59on his involvement.
30:01In grassroots organizing
30:02and things like that,
30:03he also recognized that
30:05when he was doing this work,
30:08he didn't really also see
30:10or understand where his.
30:12Religion or faith really could
30:14be a part of this,
30:16and what I mean by that is that he
30:18said he described this very poignant
30:20moment when he was coming back from
30:23from Ferguson and he was on the bus.
30:25And he said,
30:26often organized religion.
30:27The only thing that you're seeing
30:29in terms of response is that either
30:31you teach people to pray about it or
30:34to do religious practices that are,
30:36you know,
30:36seen as disconnected from this
30:38work or their silent an he was
30:40crippled by the silence and so he.
30:42Wanted to be able to Createspace
30:46where he could.
30:48Share his anger or cuss if he needed to,
30:51or to talk about what was happening
30:55in his body and his emotions
30:58with regard to the violence.
31:01That he you know had seen and
31:03experienced in this Mike Brown moment,
31:06but also that many African American man,
31:09black and Brown youth have
31:11kind of seen first hand.
31:14And so.
31:15And so he says, you know,
31:17he was trying to figure out
31:19where he could go,
31:20and so because he couldn't think of a church,
31:23or you couldn't think of a
31:25place that he could do that.
31:27He had to think about what he could create,
31:29and so with another student
31:31and another colleague of his,
31:32they created something that
31:34he calls a sacred service of
31:35Remembrance. And so they put together
31:37a moment where they reflected
31:39many in light of his tradition.
31:41His religious tradition in the
31:42same format on the last words,
31:44the last words uttered.
31:45My folks had been killed by police or
31:48killed by vigilante violence and so
31:50he had examples of the work by word.
31:52Last words of say,
31:54Trayvon Martin or the last words of
31:56which is just a screen or the last words
31:59of renisha McBride or or other folks.
32:01And the list was so long that you
32:03know he clearly had many different
32:05ways of reflecting on this.
32:07But part of what was also
32:09interesting for him.
32:10Was that?
32:12When he created this space.
32:15It also attracted a bunch
32:16of other young people,
32:18teens and adolescents who
32:19also needed that space,
32:20but who also were trying
32:22to help us help themselves.
32:24Think through where the places that are safe.
32:27What are the resources that are
32:29available to me an in this moment?
32:32Now I was trying to say there's
32:33something about my spirituality.
32:35There's something about my
32:36religious convictions that that
32:37that I see as a resource,
32:38but I've gotta tweak it
32:39or I've gotta change it.
32:40I've gotta cultivated and nurture
32:42it in a way that's going to
32:43actually allow it to be able to
32:45connect and help me to face a lot
32:47of these other things that I'm
32:48experiencing on a day to day basis.
32:50Now again.
32:51As I had questions about Nile spirituality
32:55an how like with Kira, how did we?
32:58How did we get here? And so I wrestled.
33:01You know, with questions like.
33:04How was now formed or what shaped him?
33:06Like what experiences shaped him
33:08or what was who was he reading?
33:10What was he watching?
33:11I'm like what was it.
33:1212 year old Nile doing?
33:14Or what was the 8 year old Nile doing?
33:16And similarly with Kira.
33:17You know things about what was
33:19happening in their schools,
33:20what was happening?
33:21If we're thinking about like a
33:23broken printer model and that whole
33:25ecosystem that they were all apart
33:27of what was happening in church?
33:28What was happening in his youth group?
33:30What was happening in all these different
33:33places that would then push for?
33:35A young person too.
33:38Both see their spirituality as a resource,
33:41but also see some of its shortcomings and
33:43to want to cultivate it in in different ways.
33:46Now,
33:47of course,
33:47and as I mentioned,
33:49I think maybe earlier now and I
33:51have since collaborated on some
33:53other projects we work together on
33:55looking at the role of spirituality
33:57and activism in particular,
33:58connecting.
33:59The idea of joy,
34:01which is a under not very well or
34:04precisely defined idea,
34:05but looking at joy and spirituality,
34:07joy and resistance an from that work we've
34:09begun to unpack some of these questions,
34:12and some of the,
34:13and I've got to know a little
34:16bit more about his story of
34:18like who he is and what has
34:21shaped a lot of his experiences.
34:23But what's also interesting
34:24for me when I think about Nile,
34:26and I think about Kiran,
34:28the reason I wanted to share
34:30them with us today, is that.
34:32They are both doing this kind of
34:34heavy lifting that may or may
34:36not be the stuff that we would
34:39immediately think about when it
34:41comes to positive outcomes or
34:43thinking about positive resources
34:44for mental health or even health and
34:47well being there there tapping into
34:49something spirituality in particular,
34:50in ways that a lot of adults
34:53still struggle to figure out.
34:54An also that we may not necessarily
34:57be giving them the best resources
34:59to kind of figure out how to do it
35:02on a mainstream. And regular basis.
35:05But what this work?
35:06And this research for me as points
35:09to and pushes for,
35:10is honestly it's the beginning
35:12of a conversation.
35:13It pushes for further research about
35:15cultivating joy or nurturing joy,
35:17but also to really think about
35:19what we've learned from Akira or
35:22Nile or many others like them.
35:24And of course,
35:25also thinking about stepping back
35:26what we learn from their parents.
35:29What we learn from the reality
35:31that both of them were nurtured
35:33by mothers who also have this.
35:35Highly high sense of personal
35:37spirituality and high communal ethos.
35:39an A sense of kind of cultivating
35:42this within themselves,
35:43but also within their young
35:45people and their children.
35:47And also learn from them
35:49about what they put in place.
35:51You know from the parents to you know,
35:54raise strong and have spiritually
35:56healthy and conscious black angles,
35:58but also for me it raised it more
36:02general question of like how can.
36:05Youth workers or educators.
36:07And clinicians also help children
36:10and youth and families to tap into
36:13or connect with spirituality as
36:15part of the resources that are
36:18available to them for ameliorating
36:20systemic and structural issues,
36:22or even for just fostering better
36:25psychological or health outcomes.
36:27And so of course,
36:28while my research has not been
36:30able to illuminate all of this
36:32stuff that we might do,
36:34it has helped me to unearth several
36:37crucial points to get us started,
36:39and they reminded their reminders for me,
36:41but also for us, and I'll just leave three.
36:45One of the things that is so crucial
36:47in terms of how we might begin
36:50to help clinicians and educators
36:52and leaders to help young people
36:54like Nile and particularly other
36:56African American youth who.
36:57Seem to be have a higher if you
36:59will level of religiosity or most
37:01of the indicators in terms of
37:03belief in God and practices,
37:05but to see that that's something that's
37:07going to be helpful to them to tap into
37:09is generally just to start with openness.
37:12Man,
37:12this is a reminder,
37:13not just when I'm talking to
37:15folks in like the medical field,
37:17but also I had to check so many
37:19of my assumptions in my assertions
37:21about what things lined up to
37:24be resources for young people.
37:26That there's a way that we have
37:28to cultivate in
37:29ourselves and the research that we do,
37:31but also in young people, a sense.
37:34And when we're thinking about
37:35what spirituality looks like and
37:37how you nurture spirituality and
37:39children that leads to a more
37:41robust spirituality and adolescence.
37:42Is around openness and or or experiences
37:45of awe and wonder of what does it
37:48mean for us to really think through
37:50how we created them or help them to
37:53sense you know that there might be
37:55something larger than them that there
37:57might be something that is either
38:00transcendent or that is calling them
38:02to use vocational language or pushing
38:04them or propelling them to be concerned
38:06about something greater than themselves.
38:09And how do we create that
38:10kind of openness to them?
38:12And that ties into the second one
38:14where we need to think about how we
38:16nurture spirituality in childhood.
38:18So Nile did not just hatch and
38:20one day to decide.
38:21Like you know, this is what happened.
38:23And here it also didn't just,
38:25you know,
38:26show up at 16.
38:27And that's when her spirituality
38:29just started taking off.
38:30Even though adolescence is a prime place
38:32for spiritual exploration and for people
38:34to kind of think about what it develops,
38:36these kinds of understandings
38:38have to be nurtured.
38:39In childhood,
38:40forward and some of that really again
38:42just reminds us to kind of nurture within
38:45or kind of invent some of the research.
38:47By the way,
38:48talks about children as being
38:50particularly primed for spirituality,
38:52an only as we kind of like,
38:54evolve and develop to some of that go away.
38:57And so the genuine curiosity
38:59about the other curiosity about
39:00what's out there that's different,
39:02or that might be beyond you know,
39:05concrete, rational explanations.
39:06Kids are all about that,
39:07and so how do we nurture?
39:10This kind of spirituality or
39:12openness and all and wonder.
39:14Anan a sense of like really
39:16pausing to kind of reflect,
39:17you know most of us can have those those
39:19narratives we worked with the toddler
39:21or we work with the young person,
39:23and they remind us to limit.
39:24Do you hear that?
39:25Well, that's a bird,
39:26or do you hear that there's leaves and
39:28that's a way of kind of, you know,
39:30nurturing spirituality to really
39:31pause and pay attention in those ways,
39:33or to see Oh my goodness,
39:34it's purple.
39:35This guy is purple and you're like,
39:36well, wait a minute now.
39:38Of course we can have conversation about the
39:40evolution and some other stuff like that,
39:41but the reality is they saw purple
39:43an what does it mean for us to
39:45kind of nurture that within them?
39:47And then also to begin to explore.
39:51These messy concepts and I I
39:53love messy concepts.
39:53It seems like that's the idea of my work,
39:56but to be able to explore things
39:58like joy and hope and how they funk.
40:00Should come in.
40:04Helping young people to either
40:05cope or to resist,
40:06or also to kind of just to
40:08live better lives
40:09and for me in particular.
40:11I remember when I was working with
40:13with or interviewing and thinking
40:15with Nile Now was talking about.
40:17He says, even though we were there
40:19protesting in the streets of Ferguson.
40:23You know terrible structural in justices.
40:25What we could never lose sight of was the
40:28fact that as we were walking together,
40:31there was something joyful that would
40:34emerge when we would start singing
40:36or when a particular piece of music
40:39would come on and we would all kind of
40:42their collectively in the struggle,
40:44bop together or be able to kind
40:46of reflect on what was at stake,
40:49not just not just constantly
40:51be reflecting what state,
40:52but also to see.
40:54Our collective energy or collective
40:56creativity or collective enjoyment
40:57of this music.
40:58Also as a way that we were resisting
41:01these oppressive structures and kind of
41:04protesting the loss of life and the loss
41:07of their ability for people to continue
41:09to experience joy in those moments.
41:11And so there's a lot more there,
41:14but I'm looking.
41:15I want to pause here and and so we have
41:19some time for some questions and so to
41:22really kind of wrestle with what we do.
41:25With with all of these experiences.
41:28I like to ride. Thank you so
41:30much I can only imagine there's
41:32going to be many, many questions.
41:35So if you have a question,
41:37please do me a favor and raise
41:39your hand through the little
41:41emoji and or because I think and
41:43doctor Liberal already has told
41:45us that he has a question but.
41:49Doctor Amanda Calhoun.
41:51Please take it away. Hello
41:54Doctor, right thank you so much
41:57for your amazing presentation.
41:59I caught the end of it
42:01'cause I had a commitment
42:03during the first part, so I apologize
42:06if you answered this question,
42:08but my researches which
42:10I'm just beginning is looking at
42:12the mental health effects of racism
42:15on black girls and black youth and
42:17just thinking about you know spirituality
42:20and how that can be a coping mechanism.
42:23Obviously, you know I want to destroy the
42:26racist structures and the racist system,
42:29but in the meantime,
42:30you know black youth are being
42:32affected by it and sort of.
42:35Have you have you done any
42:37projects with excuse me?
42:38Psychiatrists child psychiatrists partner
42:40with them and thinking about spirituality
42:42as a way to mitigate the effects of racism
42:45and racial trauma on black children?
42:49Specifically on racial trauma, no,
42:51but it's so that such important work,
42:53so I am so grateful that you were
42:56starting and working through that.
42:58It's part of a conversation that's ongoing
43:00because we normally get to look at when
43:03we're talking about spirituality or children,
43:05spirituality and adolescent spirituality.
43:06We see generic positive outcomes,
43:08but there's not been enough and this is
43:11something I did say at the beginning.
43:13There's not been enough
43:15research to really kind of.
43:18Focus specifically and
43:19uniquely on black youth,
43:20and in your case also on black girls to
43:23see what some of the coping mechanisms
43:26and the reason that's even more so.
43:29Really important because of the recent
43:31trends like so, even though we're
43:33seeing downward trend of studio,
43:35suicidal ideations and things like that.
43:38It's the only population for
43:40whom it's increasing our Blackie,
43:41and So what does that mean for us?
43:44To then think about and for me I'm
43:46all about like you know,
43:48let's cast the net as wide as possible,
43:50but spirituality can't be left off the
43:53table particularly well in two sides of this.
43:55And this is, you know,
43:57I'll leave it here and we'll
43:59go to another question,
44:00but we can't leave it out of the equation,
44:03partly because it's also at the same
44:05time a significant level of suspicion,
44:07ANAN around mental health.
44:08And health seeking stuff.
44:10And so if you're having higher
44:12incidences of spirituality and kind
44:13of religiosity within this community,
44:15you've got us, then stay with.
44:17That's part of what's still important for
44:19them and their suspicions of mental health.
44:22How do we put these things together so
44:25that we can help them to better access?
44:28Resources and strategies for coping.
44:30So I commend and I'm so excited about
44:32your work and definitely I would.
44:34I've got some suggestions if you
44:36want to contact me of people who
44:38would probably better collaborators
44:40for that who started to do
44:42some of that work.
44:43And I would love to thank you.
44:45Let me say doctor right and Doctor
44:47Calhoun that when you when you
44:49Doctor Wright mentioned qualitative
44:50studies the Good Doctor Calhoun is
44:53starting her career on that direction.
44:55So I think this is the
44:56beginning of a great friendship.
44:58We have a next comment.
45:00From Doctor Prewett Kyle
45:04you're mute.
45:14You'd think by now. Doctor right.
45:19Thank you very much for not
45:21keeping your light under a bushel.
45:24It's very important for us to see it.
45:27I'm reminded as you talk about the
45:30importance of spirituality is an
45:32organizing and growth promoting force
45:33in the lives of all human beings.
45:36How rarely it is part of the
45:38assessment of the mental health of
45:41our children and I find in my years
45:44of supervision and clinical work,
45:46that's often directly related to the.
45:49Interviewers comfort with their own
45:51spirituality or absence thereof or concern
45:53about it or embarrassment about it,
45:55and this is an area that needs a great
45:58deal more light than it currently has.
46:01What really brings this to the
46:03four is when a child that you have
46:06under whose of concern has really
46:08suffered a large trauma like the
46:10death of a parent or someone they
46:13love and the spirituality comes face
46:15to face with organized religions,
46:17traditions about what happens
46:19to people when they die.
46:21And how are you going to help me
46:23understand this impossible thing
46:24that I'm struggling with right now?
46:26And that is a very important
46:28deflection point,
46:29which we we could talk a lot
46:31about how to do better.
46:34Thanks for holding our toes to this.
46:38I appreciate that, and I
46:40mean you've raised so many.
46:43Pointed questions,
46:44there are places where there's so
46:46much growth that has to take place
46:48not just in the clinician side,
46:49but also in terms of the work that
46:51I do with helping people think about
46:53children and youth spirituality,
46:55even from a religious organization side to
46:57really help make sure that they're there.
46:59Equipping themselves to also
47:00be a part of that,
47:01and I think what you've also tapped
47:04on Doctor Pruitt was that there is
47:06a way in which a lot of our work
47:08is around trying to wrestle with
47:10the reality that it particularly
47:11US context that we have.
47:13Generations and generations of parents
47:15and scholars an activist and doctors
47:17for whom religion had not been like or
47:19even organized religion or spirituality.
47:21Conversations had not been part of
47:23something that we were comfortable with
47:25or that we've grown up with or having
47:28kind of this interesting kind of like,
47:30you know.
47:31Well,
47:31maybe I'll talk about it,
47:33but only privately conversation.
47:35Thank you. Thank you very much.
47:38I think next question Doctor IO Bella
47:41I think yeah Doctor Abello Doctor,
47:43Pius, Doctor, Hoffman, doctor Liberal,
47:45the QSQ is going so you did something
47:49doctor right so Doctor Aiello.
47:53Hi doctor Ryan, thank you so
47:55much for giving us this talk.
47:57I think it is so so important and
48:00this is an area that I you know
48:02have a lot of interest in as well.
48:05So thank you so much for doing that.
48:09My question was from a longer
48:12to to know standpoint,
48:14have you noticed any trends between
48:18you know kids or you swing in from a
48:23standpoint of religious organization
48:26to individual spirituality and then
48:29back to organized religion and have
48:33you noticed any correlations with
48:36mental health as far as like that?
48:39Outcomes.
48:41With that with the swing or with a trend.
48:45So in terms of the trend, there is.
48:48Historically there's been like an arc
48:49where you know folks would be part
48:52of an organized religious community,
48:54then like around.
48:56Upper adolescents and young
48:57adulthood would kind of trend out
48:59of organized religion and come do
49:01their own thing and then come back.
49:03That actually is not the
49:04trend as much anymore.
49:05Partly was the backward turn was like
49:07when people started having families
49:09because they wanted to raise their
49:11kids religious or they wanted to do
49:13something like that to bring him back
49:14to a part of it organized community.
49:16Instead, what we've noticed in
49:18this drawing upon larger data from
49:20Lexington Pew Foundation another.
49:22Resources like that is that there's
49:24tends to be more of the outward
49:27cycle from religious organizations.
49:29And not necessarily the turning back.
49:32And that you know for a whole host of
49:35reasons and in terms of like decline
49:37and Sam's of organized religious
49:38affiliation and things like that over
49:41most populations in the last 20 to 30 years.
49:44But in terms of your questions around this,
49:47connections with mental health outcomes.
49:48What's interesting and this is something
49:50that I noted at the beginning and again,
49:53more research needs to be done
49:55here to really quantify this area,
49:57even to texture from qualitative
49:59studies to this is around.
50:00The reality that it is the win so.
50:07The shift is interesting to pay attention to,
50:10but the shift is less concerning
50:12to me because what we're finding
50:14in the spirituality studies is that
50:16it is when the beliefs,
50:18either from an organized traditions
50:20or some amalgam of just generic
50:22spirituality is internalised,
50:23that it has the positive outcomes.
50:26And so,
50:27and that's been just something
50:28that's kind of interesting for
50:30us to kind of think through.
50:31So initially we're like where
50:33everybody's hair was on fire,
50:34because like people are leaving churches
50:36or leave me mosque or leaving synagogue,
50:38and they're not coming back.
50:40But what was interesting was that
50:42there's something to be said about
50:44what's happening foundationally in
50:45terms of cultivating a sense of the
50:48divine or a sense of relationship
50:49that then is important.
50:50And of course related to that,
50:52particularly for minoritized communities,
50:54that one of the things that I've
50:56been finding that I think is also
50:59really important to pay attention
51:00to is the reality that some of
51:02what times turn away is from what
51:04organized communities stand for.
51:05In the critiques that they have,
51:07say, about being you know,
51:09less open to teams like.
51:11Different diverse expressions of
51:12********* being less open to diverse,
51:14you know, experiences of kind of like,
51:16you know,
51:16the divine or even being able to connect.
51:19And do you know things?
51:20For example with like African traditional
51:22religions or with other different
51:23ways of cultivating spirituality,
51:25and so there's it seems to be an openness
51:27to this spiritual kind of amalgam,
51:29but also a critique of organized religion.
51:31An in that you see,
51:33still see the positive outcomes
51:34because they've internalized it and
51:36made it their own,
51:37and so they would say, well,
51:39the relationships are important,
51:40or my grandmother's faith is important or.
51:42What's happening, you know,
51:43for me with this moment is what's important,
51:46and so it's less of what whether
51:48or not they're still part of say.
51:51A practicing congregation and
51:52more so whether or not what they
51:55know or think about the divine
51:57and the transcendent that is,
51:58that is most directly connected
52:00to the positive outcomes.
52:02Doctor write, the questions are still coming.
52:04So let me let me just.
52:08We just this is a very wonderful problem
52:10to have, so I'm going to do this.
52:12I had promised Doctor Liberal who put
52:14us together to ask the last question.
52:16I want to really thank you on behalf
52:18of the whole Child study center.
52:21This has been incredible.
52:22I want to thank Doctor Liberal
52:24and roast me if you don't mind.
52:26Don't close the zoom room so if anyone
52:28wants to stay after 2:00 o'clock,
52:30I apologize to doctor Pam Hoffman
52:31to doctor Health supplies.
52:33Anyone else who has questions.
52:34I have Doctor Wright has a little
52:36bit more time she'll be around.
52:38But thank you so much, Anne.
52:40I pass it to our matchmaker doctor Liberal.
52:43Thank
52:44you doctor Martin.
52:45I think your doctor right.
52:48Many would argue that trust is a
52:51necessary precondition for faith.
52:53Ann from the developmental perspective.
52:56So many of our young folk have
52:59extremely severe disrupted attachments
53:01that you know with their caregivers,
53:04compounded by ****** trauma,
53:06physical trauma, emotional trauma.
53:08And this makes it hard for
53:11them to trust and hope.
53:13So how is it possible for young folk
53:16to seek out a relationship with God in
53:19light of such failed attachment bonds?
53:23And that's actually one of
53:24the things that's been.
53:25There's a phenomenal question,
53:27and one that I wrestle with a lot,
53:29but I think it's also one of those
53:31places where what we've been seeing
53:33in terms of the trends or in terms
53:35of my own research and some of
53:37the narrative is that it's both.
53:39It's something that we've got to think
53:41through in terms of how to you do.
53:43I mean, of course,
53:45I think just to kind of tongue in cheek.
53:47To say we want to fix it,
53:49we want to fix the world so that
53:51young people don't have to deal
53:53with these trust bonds, but.
53:55Even in light of the fact that we may
53:58not be able to to fix that right there,
54:00I think there are things that can
54:02be done in terms of proving or
54:04kind of like the way that also
54:06relationships are restored in general,
54:08are the ways we're going to restore
54:11relationships or understandings
54:12of faith and spirituality so that
54:13it's not just seen as this one size
54:15fits all or that one person does
54:17it and then trust is lost forever.
54:19But how do you then allow young
54:22people to tap into?
54:23Either what's innate in Serms of themselves,
54:25in their own kind of core strength and power,
54:27or into a sense of the divine
54:29that might be trustworthy.
54:31Interesting, Lee and anecdotally,
54:32part of what has also come up in terms
54:35of narrative is that sometimes the
54:37young people who tend to not have
54:39these trusting relationships or have
54:41been cut off from them because of
54:43various trauma and things like that.
54:45It's still a wrestling with what it
54:48means to to kind of to seek out the divine,
54:51in part because they are having questions.
54:53And theologically County Odyssey of
54:55like how do you explain you know how
54:58God can be good and so I have found
55:00in my own work that young people
55:02are still forming communities to
55:04wrestle with that and are still in
55:06the creative arts like writing poetry
55:08about some of these questions or
55:10writing music around some of these
55:12questions to really push forward.
55:13And so there's not a way that.
55:16Particularly when I'm studying
55:18them in adolescence.
55:19That they've left it all together
55:21because of the traumatic experiences,
55:22but there's still a way that
55:24they're trying to wrestle,
55:25and part of my work and that
55:26I've been wrestling with for you.
55:28I was trying to bridge the gap
55:30of so how do you step in there?
55:32How do you offer an intervention
55:33that keeps them wrestling?
55:34Or and that doesn't necessarily
55:36give him easy answer?
55:37'cause the easy answer is where
55:38they shut down like you can't say
55:40well just trust God and that's
55:42not going to work for them.
55:43Instead you have to kind of say
55:45we've got this space and you've got
55:47questions and I've got questions too.
55:48And sometimes the honesty around the.
55:50Doubt the honesty around the
55:53distrust is what keeps young
55:55people engaging.
55:58Amen, I think that you hit the
56:00nail on the head. And by the way,
56:02you said I love messy questions.
56:04We love messy questions and I think
56:06we have so much to do together.
56:07So thank you so much for being with us.
56:10We're going to leave the Zoom room
56:12open for a little bit if anyone has.