Integrating Neuroscience, Health Advocacy, and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Tools for Societal Good

April 24, 2024

YCSC Grand Rounds April 23, 2024

Nii Addy, PhD, Albert E. Kent Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Associate Professor of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Yale School of Medicine

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00:00OK, So I'm very pleased and very
00:04excited to introduce Doctor NI.
00:07Addy. NI is the Doctor.
00:08Addy is the Albert E Kent Associate
00:10Professor of Psychiatry and associate
00:13professor of Cellular and Molecular
00:15Physiology and the inaugural director of
00:18the Scientific Diversity and Inclusion
00:21at the Yale School of Medicine.
00:23He's also director of faculty
00:25mentoring program for the Moore
00:27Organization and Co chair of the
00:30Career Development Subcommittee of
00:31the Anti Racism Tax Task Force in
00:33the Yale Department of Psychiatry.
00:35He received his BS from Duke University
00:38and his PhD in neuroscience from Yale.
00:41He directs A federally funded
00:43research program investigating the
00:45biological mechanisms mediating
00:46substance use and mood disorders.
00:48And Doctor Addy also his team also studies
00:51the ability of tobacco product flavor
00:54additives to to alter nicotine use,
00:56behavior and addiction.
00:57OK, so he's an established scholar.
01:00He has published widely,
01:02sits on different journal review boards,
01:05and also has presented his
01:07scientific lectures at universities
01:08throughout the US and Europe.
01:10But that's not the reason that
01:11he was invited to talk today.
01:12That's only one piece of the puzzle.
01:14OK, so the really interesting stuff,
01:16at least from my perspective, all the sides.
01:18It's interesting too,
01:20is that he also hosts the Addy Hour podcast,
01:23which focuses on topics at the
01:25intersection of neuroscience,
01:26mental health, faith, culture,
01:29and social justice.
01:30Episodes include dynamic conversations
01:32based on the lived experience and
01:34professional expertise of his guests,
01:36which include community leaders,
01:38clinicians and mental health experts,
01:40scientists,
01:41professional athletes and entertainers,
01:43faith leaders, and mental health advocates.
01:46As the creator and host of these
01:48town hall community events,
01:50Doctor Addie has also built unique
01:52partnerships to encourage and equip
01:54audiences to embrace the use of holistic,
01:56integrated tools to address
01:58mental health challenges.
01:59His research and community work
02:01have been featured by NPR Newsday,
02:04the National Football League Players
02:06Association, Source Magazine,
02:08Chuck Norris Bowl TV,
02:09Legitimate Matters and Relevant Magazine.
02:12Finally,
02:12he serves on the Board of Trustees
02:14for the Carver Project,
02:15aimed at empowering and connecting
02:17individuals across university,
02:19church and society.
02:20So please join me in welcoming Dr.
02:22Addy to the Child Study Center.
02:31Thank you, Doctor David,
02:32for that introduction.
02:33It's good to be here with all of you.
02:34I've been told that that's the camera I'm
02:35supposed to look at for the folks online,
02:37so I'll try and address
02:38you all at times as well.
02:40But it's great to be here.
02:41I've been really encouraged to hear
02:43about this Grand Rounds lecture series,
02:45so thanks to Doctor David.
02:46Thanks to Doctor Maze
02:47for the support as well.
02:49Specifically because of how
02:50transformative it is to really have
02:52something that's focused on leadership.
02:54I know you've had transformative
02:55leaders that have been here speaking.
02:56And so I feel very honoured to be
02:58included in that fold, as it were,
03:00to be able to speak with you all today.
03:02So I know we're going to have
03:03some Q&amp;A time afterwards.
03:04What I thought I would do is just
03:06start out with some general comments.
03:08I will admit my title is a little bit,
03:11what's the right word to say,
03:12ambitious, grandiose.
03:13I see you all are are reacting,
03:16so you may have had some thoughts
03:17as you read the title as well.
03:18But I thought I'd give you a
03:19little bit of a sense of how
03:21I actually got to that place.
03:22So I'm going to try and be a little bit
03:24vulnerable and kind of peel back the layers,
03:27as it were,
03:27for how I actually got to this place
03:29of serving in these different roles
03:31and trying to have the ambition to
03:33make an impact in terms of societal good.
03:35So hopefully that will be something
03:37that will be helpful to you all.
03:39I will also say there's a a
03:40shift here that I feel as well.
03:42So even as you heard about as
03:44Doctor Dave was describing,
03:45some of the things that I've done,
03:47a lot of that involves interacting
03:49in different communities.
03:50And so just with who I am,
03:52my personality,
03:52I really enjoy getting out and
03:54doing those types of things.
03:55I enjoy that much more than
03:57actually talking about it.
03:58So if I had my choice,
03:59this might surprise me.
04:00I'm actually a background person.
04:01I don't like being in the spotlight.
04:03And so it's been a shift to actually
04:05step into leadership roles to
04:06actually move things forward.
04:08But there is also a little bit of just,
04:09this is not the right word,
04:10but weirdness for me to actually
04:12talk about that here at Yale because
04:14so much of it has been with Yale,
04:15but also going out into communities.
04:17So this is, I think, a healthy shift,
04:18and hopefully that will be helpful
04:19for you all as well.
04:20And thank you to Doctor David
04:22for actually facilitating that.
04:23Because I'll just tell you honestly,
04:24that's not something I would
04:25choose to jump into and be like,
04:27let me just talk about all the other
04:29things I'm doing while I'm here on campus.
04:30So in a sense,
04:31you've created an opportunity.
04:32So I've given a lot of
04:34caveats, but let me go ahead and jump
04:36into just some of the opening remarks.
04:38And I will say this will
04:39sound a little bit strange,
04:40but one of the main reasons I feel
04:42like I'm doing so much of this work
04:45is really born out of frustration.
04:47And I've used that phrase in other scenarios
04:50before sometimes when I've given keynotes.
04:52And I always acknowledge that's a little bit
04:53of a weird place to start a presentation,
04:55like to tell you,
04:56obviously you're frustrated,
04:57but it's kind of the reality
04:58of how I step into this work.
05:00So it's what I thought I would do is tell
05:02you a few different stories about where some
05:04of that frustration actually came from.
05:06So the first story,
05:07this is actually going back
05:08maybe about 10 years or so.
05:10I was giving a talk at Emory University.
05:12I've been invited by the students to come and
05:14speak on a mental health and faith topic,
05:17so they had me as a neuroscientist.
05:19They also paired me with a
05:20clinical psychologist on campus,
05:21and we're just talking about
05:23different aspects of mental health
05:24from a neuroscience perspective,
05:25psychological perspective,
05:26and then also thinking about
05:28aspects of faith.
05:29So it's a really generous
05:31and generative conversation.
05:32I remember at the end of the conversation,
05:34one of the students in the
05:35class raised her hand.
05:36So I have found out later she was
05:38actually studying behavioral neuroscience.
05:39So she's already thinking a lot about the
05:41brain and how that impacts mental health.
05:43But she said she had a hard time
05:45interacting and giving guidance
05:46to an aunt who is struggling
05:48with addiction and depression.
05:50And she said that aunt kept being told
05:52that the only reason she wasn't getting
05:54better is because she wasn't praying hard.
05:57So I'm seeing some of your facial
05:58reactions to that as well.
05:59I can't see the folks online.
06:00You might have also had
06:01some facial reactions,
06:02but that's something that hit me in
06:04a really odd way and just LED to a
06:07a feeling of frustration because
06:09of that scenario.
06:10Now Fast forward a few years later,
06:12this time I was teaching a class
06:14here on campus,
06:15teaching the medical students and talking
06:16a lot about the work that we do in the lab,
06:18looking at the neurobiology of
06:20relapse and how different processes
06:22in the brain facilitate craving
06:24and can actually lead to relapse.
06:26Now in this situation,
06:27it has students in that lecturer who raised
06:29their hands that this is all well and good,
06:30but what are we supposed to do
06:32with those people that think that a
06:34higher power can help them navigate
06:35through their mental health channels?
06:37So again, I was feeling frustrated.
06:39On the one hand,
06:40I was frustrated that somebody
06:42would be appropriately, I think,
06:44using spiritual practices,
06:44but almost being told to ignore
06:46everything we know about psychology,
06:47psychiatry,
06:48all these other aspects.
06:49And on the other hand,
06:50having someone who's paying
06:51attention to those pieces,
06:52but ignoring everything we know about
06:53the power of being part of community,
06:55the power of being the faith community.
06:56And so it was a frustration that
06:59I was feeling on both sides.
07:01Now, that wasn't the only
07:02thing that was frustrating me.
07:02Those I mentioned were two separate
07:04events that happened years apart.
07:06But some of the things that were frustrating
07:08were just kind of in my daily navigation.
07:10So as you heard,
07:11I actually lead a research program
07:12here in the psychiatry department.
07:14So running a research lab,
07:15we're particularly focused on anxiety,
07:17depression, addiction,
07:17really trying to understand the basic
07:20neurobiology of those challenges.
07:21And then also to do work,
07:23we can try and look for novel therapeutic
07:25targets and then build collaborations with
07:27clinicians to actually do clinical studies,
07:28which we're in the middle of setting up.
07:30So with that is also a large research team.
07:33And I always think about the aspects of
07:35community that we have together as community,
07:36but doing that work as a community.
07:38I have undergraduates in the lab,
07:39graduate students,
07:40post BAC students,
07:42some PhD students, MDPHD students,
07:44the research staff.
07:45And so we're all community
07:46together doing that work.
07:47There's a lot of mentorship
07:48that comes from that,
07:49but there's also aspects where we all
07:51have to walk through life together.
07:53That's something I think hopefully
07:54we can all appreciate even more
07:56so after everything that we've
07:57gone through for the pandemic.
07:59So one specific situation,
08:01I remember going up to the
08:02lab one day out this,
08:03I was in the building where I had to
08:05take the elevator to go up to my office.
08:06And on the way to my office,
08:07I felt like I heard someone
08:09weeping in in the restroom.
08:10Wasn't sure exactly what that was about.
08:13But later that morning,
08:14I had a meeting with one of my
08:15students to basically just do
08:16kind of a a research check in,
08:18talk about research progress.
08:19And I could tell the students really trying
08:21to kind of move through all the research,
08:23but was having a hard time.
08:25So I took a pause to just kind
08:27of check in with the students and
08:29see how they were doing overall.
08:30Now,
08:31this actually happened to be the same
08:33day of the George Zimmerman trial
08:34in the killing of Trayvon Martin.
08:36The student also was a black student,
08:38and so they were having a really
08:40difficult time with the verdict and
08:42actually navigating through that.
08:43So in that moment,
08:44I think it was really important
08:45for me and really helpful for me
08:47to kind of pause and step back and
08:49have that space where the student
08:50can really process all the emotions
08:52they were feeling at that time.
08:54Now, at the same time,
08:55I was doing this while I was
08:56also processing my own emotions,
08:57a mixture of emotions, frustration,
09:00outrage, anger, hopelessness,
09:01all kind of mixed in together,
09:04but trying to guide a student
09:06through that process at
09:07the same time. So I say that to
09:08say it wasn't an easy moment,
09:09but I think it was a very
09:11helpful moment for both of us.
09:13But the part that got even more challenging
09:14is after that meeting later on the day,
09:16I had to go to a a more general
09:18meeting with other faculty.
09:19It was actually very strange to
09:21walk into that setting because
09:22when I walked into that setting,
09:24everybody was smiling.
09:25People were just checking in,
09:27saying, oh, how are you doing?
09:28And I have to admit,
09:29I didn't feel courageous enough to actually
09:31say how I was feeling in that moment.
09:34And it felt a little bit surreal
09:36because it was almost as if nothing
09:38had happened to touch our national
09:40public conscience in that moment.
09:42People were just doing business as usual.
09:43I don't know if that's because people
09:45didn't know about the situation or
09:46they didn't know how to respond to it.
09:48But again,
09:48I kind of left that setting feeling
09:51very disjointed and then and then
09:53again also feeling frustrated.
09:55So with that frustration,
09:56I try to channel things into making actions.
09:59And one of the things that you heard
10:00about is the podcast conversations.
10:02I started in 2021,
10:03or I have these conversations
10:05with lots of different people at
10:07the intersection of neuroscience,
10:08mental health, faith, culture,
10:10and social justice.
10:11So that has been very encouraging to see.
10:13But initially there was also from
10:15some frustration with that as well.
10:17So I remember talking to a prominent
10:19basic scientists in the field and their
10:21knee jerk reaction to the podcast was why?
10:23Why are you talking about that?
10:25You're a basic scientist?
10:26As if I had somehow stepped out of my
10:28lane and was doing something that was
10:30outside of the realm of what I was,
10:32quote UN quote, allowed to do.
10:34Now,
10:34in retrospect,
10:35I think that was that comment
10:36was actually said in innocence,
10:38not with any ill intent.
10:40And this is someone who has actually
10:41been much more supportive after the fact.
10:43But just hearing that also gave me
10:44a glimpse of how people respond to
10:47these types of conversations and
10:48kind of the boxes that we sometimes
10:50put ourselves in or have other
10:52people put us in inadvertently.
10:54So again, another source of frustration.
10:56But thankfully,
10:57it's not just frustration that
10:59has facilitated this whole piece.
11:00There is a lot of also a lot of
11:02hope that I felt throughout the
11:03processes and the different things
11:05I've been able to be involved in.
11:06So the one that caught me off guard,
11:09this was about two years ago.
11:10I was actually giving a talk for the
11:11Behavior and Brain Research Foundation,
11:13basically talking about some of the
11:14work that we're doing in the lab and
11:16rodent models and trying to again,
11:17translate things into clinical populations.
11:20So, you know,
11:21I inherently I thought that might be
11:22something that would encourage people,
11:23but I didn't expect people to
11:25be encouraged the way
11:26they were encouraged.
11:27So after that talk,
11:28someone actually emailed me and
11:30said that hearing me talk about the
11:32behaviors that we study in the rodents,
11:34basically where the rodents
11:35will self administer substances,
11:36they'll display relapsed behavior,
11:38they'll display withdrawal behavior,
11:40craving, increased anxiety.
11:41There was someone who said that
11:44listening to me talk about the behavior
11:46behaviors of the rats actually gave
11:49him more understanding and empathy for
11:51his son who had been navigating through
11:53substance use challenges for a while.
11:56And I think in that he was saying
11:57that now he could actually have more
11:58understanding of what was happening
12:00in the brain that was leading his
12:01son to behave in different ways.
12:02Now, I was fully expecting him to say that,
12:04oh, I got really excited about the
12:05clinical interventions that are coming,
12:07but no hearing about rats
12:09helped him understand his son.
12:10So not something that I expected whatsoever,
12:13but really facilitated for me that
12:15importance of really talking about
12:17these things in public settings.
12:19I've also had colleagues who have joined
12:21me on the podcast for psychiatrists and
12:23who have really emphasized this as well,
12:24who said it's so important for basic
12:26scientists to be able to continue to talk
12:27about what's happening in the brain.
12:29How much that's giving her patients
12:31hope to have a better understanding
12:32of what's happening in the brain,
12:34but then also decreasing the stigma.
12:35So if family members have a better
12:37appreciation for some of the
12:38components that actually lead to
12:39the changes in behavior,
12:40Not that that's the only piece in of itself.
12:42That was also an
12:43important context for them as well.
12:46I'll say the other thing that's given
12:47me hope is some of the events that
12:49we've been able to do over time. Again,
12:50I talked about being a background person,
12:52so I'm always wanted to be like,
12:54let me facilitate other
12:55people's conversations.
12:56But every once in a while,
12:57actually pretty frequently,
12:58I'm forced to kind of step into those roles.
13:01So I had a chance to actually interact.
13:03This is about six or seven years
13:05ago with a with a hip hop artist
13:07who's one of few Grammys had written
13:09New York Times bestselling book.
13:10And I'd met him through a mutual
13:12friend and could tell that he also had
13:14a passion about this type of mental
13:15health and talked about in his music.
13:17And so we actually brought him here
13:19to campus in 2018 where we had a town
13:21hall conversation on the main campus.
13:23It was Co sponsored by the chaplain's office.
13:25We also coordinated with Kim Goff
13:26Cruz's office of the Office of Student
13:28Life and really had a cross section of
13:30people across campus who came to that,
13:32undergrads, grad students,
13:33professional students, administrators,
13:34and a lot of people said they had never
13:37seen anything like that on campus before.
13:39Now.
13:39The hip hop artist Lecrae was really
13:41vulnerable with his story.
13:42And it just kind of facilitated
13:44an atmosphere in the room where
13:45people were sharing things.
13:46I would not expect people to
13:48share in a room of 200 people,
13:49but I think they had that
13:51connection with him.
13:51He could actually see everybody on the stage.
13:53We had students that were involved.
13:55We also partnered with the Black Church at
13:57Yale and you heard people saying things like,
13:59I've been waiting for this
14:00conversation for a long time,
14:02or this is the most powerful event that
14:04I've been to since I've been on campus.
14:06And to hear people talk vulnerably
14:07about feeling like they weren't
14:08being their true selves.
14:09There was an individual with bipolar
14:11disorder who was sharing his experience
14:12and how he was in the band with
14:14two other people with bipolar and
14:16how he's navigating through the
14:17spiritual components of that and the
14:19mental health components of that.
14:20So it was just a very eye opening
14:22experience and really showed me the
14:23power of having these types of conversations.
14:25And we were able to follow up on
14:27that with a similar conversation
14:28in New York City in 2019 where
14:30800 people actually showed up to
14:31have these conversations.
14:32And again, people were saying,
14:33I've been waiting 20 years for
14:35these types of conversations.
14:36So I've had a lot of opportunity
14:38to really see how much of A desire
14:39and a need there's been for people
14:41to continue these conversations.
14:42And every time people are in the room,
14:44it seems like they get a lot out of it.
14:46So I really felt a push to try
14:48and continue to do these things.
14:49When the pandemic hit,
14:50there was an opportunity to kind
14:52of increase the scope of
14:53that through the podcast.
14:54And again, going back to my my nature,
14:56I wanted to be in the background.
14:58I didn't want to to run it.
14:59I wanted to facilitate it,
15:00bring in all these different people.
15:01And I basically had a mentor who kept saying,
15:03why, why don't you want to host it?
15:04And I really didn't have any
15:05good reason other than not
15:07wanting to be in the spotlight.
15:08So again, that was something that
15:09gave me a lot of hope as I was able
15:11to start those conversations and to
15:12really learn from a lot of the folks who
15:14were on the podcast.
15:16So I'll just wrap up to say that, you know,
15:19I've talked a lot about frustration.
15:20I've talked a lot about hope.
15:21I feel like basically at the
15:23intersection of those two really
15:24led me to a place of opportunity,
15:26opportunity to decide how to kind
15:28of navigate those two tensions
15:29and how to move things forward.
15:32And for me, it's been really important
15:33to be able to do that in community.
15:35I talked about my lab group often.
15:36If I'm giving a slide,
15:37I'll sometimes show pictures of a lab
15:39group in different communities we've
15:40been able to interact with at the
15:42onset because I feel like community
15:43is at the key of what we're doing.
15:45I often encourage people think about
15:46the communities they work with,
15:48the communities they serve,
15:49where they're located, where that's here,
15:51the medical school in New Haven,
15:53in Connecticut, in the US and globally.
15:55Then also think about just all those
15:57different touch points that we have.
15:59One thing I'll leave you with
16:00before we go into the Q&amp;A,
16:01it's also been, in a sense,
16:03surprising to me to see how people
16:05have actually responded to that.
16:07So I've been able to speak in
16:08lots of different venues where
16:09that's faith communities.
16:10I spoke to a Bar Association,
16:12I spoke to all superintendents in
16:13Connecticut at one point at the conference.
16:15And so kind of being able to step
16:16into these different worlds,
16:18as it were,
16:18and have people really resonate with these
16:20topics has been really gratifying as well.
16:22But I gave a talk at a science conference,
16:25a Gordon conference.
16:25So for any of you who know,
16:27those are really specialized
16:28conferences around specific topics.
16:29And I was kind of talking about
16:31this whole community aspect.
16:32I showed my first slide with,
16:33you know, all the people in the lab,
16:34the communities we've worked with,
16:36and we're just talking about kind
16:37of the importance of holistic
16:39approaches to mental health,
16:41thinking about aspects like neuroscience,
16:42psychology, psychiatry, faith practices.
16:44And then people actually started clapping
16:47after that first slide, which I,
16:49I had no idea what to do with that.
16:52I was like,
16:52am I in a church and am I in a
16:54concert or am I giving a lecture?
16:56But I think part of it was the fact
16:58that people were resonating with it
16:59and they hadn't heard that type of
17:02commentary in that context before.
17:03And so I think other people felt
17:05very encouraged to see that work
17:06being done and to actually come up
17:08and tell me about ways they have
17:09been doing similar work as well.
17:11So I'm kind of giving you, you know,
17:13the the behind the scenes kind of
17:15journey of how I've gotten to this place.
17:17But one thing I will say,
17:18just in closing,
17:19I think it's important again,
17:20to put things in context.
17:21There's obviously been a lot that's
17:23happened at our community at Yale
17:24the last few days going back into
17:26the weekend with the protests,
17:27with all the different perspectives and
17:30different details and different facts,
17:32I'll call them, that have been
17:34sent out or seen, you know,
17:35shown on media and things like that.
17:37And so obviously it's a
17:38challenging situation,
17:39but I think it also reminds me and
17:40reminds us of the importance of really
17:42trying to grapple with things as a community.
17:44Not that there are any easy answers,
17:46but one thing that we've tried to be very
17:48intentional about in our group, in our team,
17:50is creating space for these conversations.
17:52But then also trying to do that in
17:54a way we can do that respectfully,
17:56not assuming that everybody will,
17:58everybody will agree,
17:59but also making sure that we can
18:00actually listen to each other with
18:02empathy and with understanding,
18:04actually move things forward.
18:05So I just thought that was
18:06important to stay just, again,
18:07with everything that's going on on this
18:09campus and to know that even though
18:10we may be doing business as usual,
18:12many of us may not be feel like
18:13we're as business as usual.
18:15Things that are in our minds may have
18:16family members in other parts of the
18:18world that are more acutely affected.
18:19And so I think it's really important to
18:21acknowledge that even though that can
18:22be a tension because sometimes people
18:24feel like we're talking about too much,
18:25we're not talking about it enough.
18:27There's no easy answer.
18:28But in the sense of just the
18:30importance of community,
18:30I always think it's good to put
18:32that in context as well.
18:33So I think I will stop there.
18:35Thank you to all of you for
18:37listening to that introduction.
18:38Thanks to those of you online.
18:39And then looking forward to our
18:40next part of the conversation.
19:00Yeah, there's Mike. OK,
19:03so I have to. Oh, is it OK, great.
19:06OK, that was wonderful. Thank you.
19:10So something that really struck
19:12me when you were talking,
19:14I guess there are two things to kind
19:16of to preface some of the questions.
19:17One, I really want to contextualize what
19:20you're saying and your journey within the
19:23scope and the framework of leadership, OK.
19:27And so something that really struck me,
19:30one thing that we talk about a
19:31lot at the Child Study Center is
19:33the idea of service leadership.
19:34And what really struck me is how as
19:37a leader of this journey that you're
19:40describing, it's you saw a need,
19:41you responded to a need,
19:42you saw a need, you responded to a need,
19:44and the needs got more complex, right?
19:48But you kept responding to them and
19:51trying to pull them all in in your response.
19:54So what was that like, right,
19:58to not go out with a vision
20:00necessarily and and impose it,
20:01but to keep yourself open and
20:04responsive and not necessarily
20:06know what the end point would be?
20:09It wasn't easy.
20:10I'll just have to say that.
20:12And you probably heard that as I
20:13was alluding to just my pension
20:15to try and stay in the background.
20:17So I think an important piece of it
20:18was I had good mentors who could point
20:20those things out to me and help me at least.
20:22Acknowledge that,
20:23but I also try not to rush into things.
20:26So some things I was actually sitting
20:28with for a few months or a year and
20:30kind of making steps along the way.
20:33I think the other piece of it,
20:34so I heard a sermon probably 15 years
20:35ago where the pastor was talking about
20:38finding your passion and paying attention
20:39to the things that irritate you.
20:41So I think that was probably,
20:42you probably noticed that in my comments,
20:44the things that frustrated me and
20:45irritated me then kind of showed me,
20:47OK, this is where my passion is.
20:49And so I had to reconcile that
20:51and actually think about ways
20:53to take steps to address those.
20:54But then also in a weird practical sense,
20:57I think part of it was also seeing
20:59high profile individuals who are
21:01putting value on the things that I was
21:04passionate about me expecting them to
21:06run with it because they had a platform,
21:09but them waiting on me to direct them.
21:12And so that basically forced me to get
21:13out of my I want other people to do it
21:15and to lead because if I didn't lead,
21:17then the things wouldn't actually
21:18move forward.
21:20Interesting. And,
21:21and how does that awareness,
21:23right, that sort of responsivity,
21:26how has that in turn informed
21:28how you are still running your
21:30lab and doing science and working
21:32within like academic medicine
21:34at at the highest levels?
21:36Yeah. So I, I mean,
21:37I'm also trying to be a lifelong learner.
21:40And I think that also goes
21:43back to personality as well.
21:44I'll, I'll put a little,
21:45it's going to seem like a shameless plug,
21:47but there's some context to it as well.
21:48So I was on a podcast that came out
21:50last week called Where You're From.
21:52And basically it ties narratives to people's
21:55experiences from different faith communities.
21:57And so when I was growing up,
21:58I didn't have this.
21:59What's the best way to say it?
22:01I'm here as a professor at Yale,
22:02but that was not the trajectory
22:04you would have expected because
22:05so just to put some constant,
22:07I'll get back to your question.
22:08My parents actually came
22:09here from West Africa,
22:10from Ghana in the 70s.
22:12They both went to medical school in
22:13Ghana and met there but sacrificed a
22:15lot to actually be here in the States.
22:16When they had me as their oldest child.
22:18I basically went the in stream of the
22:20direction some type of rebellion or
22:21something where I basically told them.
22:23I remember sitting with them in
22:24middle school and saying as long as
22:26I did better than one other person
22:28in the class I was completely fine.
22:30Which wasn't good if like,
22:31so if I got it, if I got AD on
22:33something and someone else failed,
22:34I was like, I'm good.
22:37So the host actually pitched this
22:38to me because there are other
22:39things that happened as well.
22:41Who said,
22:41it's almost like I had this rebellion
22:43against what people expected of me.
22:44So if I have high achieving parents,
22:46I'm going to work.
22:47It's like you were excellent at being second.
22:50Like it takes effort to be the
22:52second worst in the class.
22:53Like you have to actually kind
22:55of position yourself.
22:56So I say all this saying,
22:57so I had I had this kind of
22:59penchant towards excellence.
22:59That's not always in a good way,
23:02other ways where it was better.
23:03So I remember I went to Duke for undergrad.
23:05We were living in a predominantly wide area
23:06and I remember a Superintendent being like,
23:08oh, well, that's a really hard school,
23:09I don't know if you can get in there.
23:11So then I, I had that same reaction,
23:13but went the other extreme.
23:15So I say all that to say that often
23:17times when I get to a certain level of
23:20learning with something that's like,
23:21I'm looking for the next challenge
23:23to kind of come up along the way.
23:25So granted,
23:25it's a accommodation 'cause I
23:27like the challenge,
23:28but I don't like being the point person.
23:29So sometimes that is a
23:31challenge in and of itself.
23:32So part of this when I started the podcast
23:34was having conversations with like
23:36political scientists or political pundits or,
23:39you know,
23:39other clinician or clinicians
23:40and things and feeling like,
23:42oh,
23:42this has really stretched me because
23:43I do not know their content.
23:45And bringing my academic mindset to be like,
23:47I have to be an expert on this
23:48topic before I can host them,
23:49which is nonsensical.
23:51So having people say no,
23:52just act like an audience member and
23:55try to ask them what you would think
23:57your audience would try and ask them.
23:59And so I think that has helped me
24:00to navigate into those spaces.
24:02But it also goes back to your
24:03question because it forces me to
24:05continue to learn to learn how
24:06to be a better conversationalist,
24:08to learn how to be a better listener.
24:10I can divulge it.
24:11You were coaching me as I was in this
24:14transition process and you had sent
24:15me some helpful YouTube videos from
24:17from lifelong journals who actually
24:19talked a lot about the power of listening.
24:22And so for me,
24:23listening has been really important
24:24to inform everything that we do.
24:26So they give me one practical story.
24:27Sean Astin had actually come
24:29on the podcast at one point.
24:30He was the the son of Patty Duke,
24:32who was living with bipolar,
24:33wasn't called bipolar at a time,
24:35but talking through her whole
24:37experience and talking about the
24:38way that she always felt like people
24:39were telling her she was suffering.
24:40You're suffering with this,
24:41you're suffering with this.
24:42And just the shift in Word choice to
24:44talk about how she was navigating
24:46through with bipolar and could
24:48still have good mental Wellness.
24:50I've had some of those conversations
24:51with people in my lab and it's
24:53actually changed how we've written
24:54our papers and the language that
24:55we use in our introduction.
24:57So that's just one example of many
24:58things like that where all the
25:00different pieces kind of inform each other.
25:02And even though these are technically
25:03quote UN quote separate, the academic,
25:05the public facing and the diversity,
25:07equity, inclusion,
25:08they all intersect and that can
25:09actually learn from each of those and
25:11we can learn as a community together
25:12to inform all those pieces together.
25:14That's a long answer.
25:15Your question was short.
25:16It was a great answer though.
25:17But but has there ever been?
25:20So I, I think about, you know,
25:23in academic medicine there,
25:25just like in any field,
25:26there's language that we use,
25:27there's a way that we,
25:28there's a culture and there's
25:29a way that we behave, right.
25:30So have you faced any pushback in
25:33bringing in sort of the culture
25:36of other spaces into academic
25:39medicine or vice versa? Not
25:41as much as I would have expected,
25:42but I think I've also tried to be
25:45intentional about doing my homework
25:46before I go to any specific place.
25:48So obviously that's easy to do in an
25:50academic setting because that's my
25:52day-to-day language where I live and breathe.
25:54But speaking in different places,
25:56even when I'm speaking to a group of lawyers,
25:58trying to understand what are the
26:00challenges they've gone through,
26:01what are the opportunities and
26:02learning about the culture and asking
26:04a lot of questions so that when I
26:06get into that place, I'm informed.
26:07And I always try to be really
26:09intentional about having conversations
26:11and not didactic lectures.
26:13So another story.
26:14So years back,
26:15my wife actually started a series
26:17called The STEM Coffee Hour in our
26:19local library and had me come and speak
26:21about the neuroscience of addiction.
26:23There were a lot of folks in
26:26that event who came from a,
26:28a recovery house basically who
26:29wanted to just hear about that.
26:30They were involved in the faith
26:31committee we were involved in,
26:32but I was really intentional about not
26:33going in and being the quote UN quote,
26:35expert to share all this
26:36didactic information.
26:37So it really was kind of a
26:38back and forth conversation.
26:39I mean,
26:40I did share about the neuroscience
26:41of addiction,
26:41but I also listened to them share
26:43about their experiences with medic,
26:44medication assisted treatment,
26:45things that worked well for them,
26:47things they hated,
26:48things they felt like their clinicians
26:49told them they weren't listening about.
26:50And so we had kind of this dynamic
26:52back and forth where I think it
26:54opened up spaces for me to lead
26:56in a collaborative manner,
26:58not to lead in a dogmatic or didactic manner.
27:01And then there were people who came
27:02to that saying when they walked in,
27:04they thought, oh, well, you know,
27:05addiction isn't really an illness.
27:06This is something I did to myself,
27:08which I acknowledge on the one hand,
27:10you have to use before you can
27:12become addicted.
27:12But they also said that they had
27:14left that place having a better
27:15understanding for how their long
27:17term substitutes has actually
27:18impacted their brain and how they
27:19could get to a new normal.
27:21So again,
27:21I feel like I haven't gotten
27:23this much pushback or vitriol as
27:25I would have expected.
27:26But I think part of that has me been
27:28me trying to be intentional about
27:30the framing of those conversations
27:32and almost even a sense building
27:34up some psychological trust in
27:35the room and the spaces,
27:36which obviously takes intention.
27:37I also takes a lot of work as well.
27:40Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that,
27:43that absolutely makes a lot of sense.
27:46So one other piece.
27:47Well, I'm sure there are more
27:49than just one other piece,
27:51but this question of faith.
27:53So, you know, we were talking about
27:54when you were preparing this talk
27:56and you used the phrase there that,
27:58you know, you're a man of faith.
27:58And I've heard you say that before.
28:00So what do you mean by that?
28:02And what role does that play?
28:05I think.
28:06All right.
28:08Thanks, everybody.
28:09Judge,
28:10can someone mute? Yeah,
28:13someone on Zoom, please. Mute.
28:15So I think from there's many different
28:17ways I could answer that question.
28:19So I'd say my faith as a Christian is
28:21something that's core to who I am.
28:23It also impacts how I think
28:25about my work and how I am,
28:27how I see other people in the sense
28:30that I hope that helps me lead with
28:33compassion and with empathy and with
28:34grace in any situation that I'm in.
28:36All the different communities
28:37I've talked about,
28:38but I've also said in other places,
28:39I feel like I have the opportunity
28:41to study God's creation.
28:42And so that impacts how I
28:44actually do my research as well,
28:46but also impacts how I think about
28:47how we think about mental health
28:48and all the different tools that we
28:50can use to address our our health,
28:52mental health.
28:52And so I'm speaking in faith
28:54communities and in churches.
28:55I also talk about my perspective that
28:56we have lots of different tools that
28:58God has allowed us to design, develop.
29:00And so it really is a framing
29:02of everything that I do.
29:04But I'll also say just, you know,
29:06in the day-to-day kind of shapes how I
29:07really try to think about what I'm called,
29:09what I feel like I'm called to do.
29:11That's a phrase people often
29:12use in face settings,
29:13which can sound a little bit abstract.
29:15But I feel like one of the things I'm
29:16called to do is to serve in different ways.
29:18And I think that gets back to what
29:19you were talking about early on,
29:21that there's a need.
29:22And I feel like I'm called
29:23to serve in specific ways.
29:25Grant,
29:25there has to be some discernment
29:26there because that's another
29:27topic that comes up all the time.
29:29Being called doesn't mean that
29:30you respond to every single crisis
29:31that comes in front of you,
29:33especially as a leader.
29:34And that's something that I've
29:35also had to learn to adjust and
29:37not saying yes to everything,
29:38but basically,
29:38I'd say that faith is kind of the
29:40overarching framework for everything I do.
29:42So, yeah. So, so that process of discernment,
29:46how did that develop and how do
29:48you know now what to where to lead
29:51and where to where to hang back? I
29:53don't know that I do know.
29:55That's why I'm laughing.
29:56But I think that's been a process over time.
29:58Some of that is trial and error.
30:00Some of it was the feedback that you
30:01gave me as we were doing the coaching.
30:03Some of that's having mentors who have
30:05tried to point things out to me as well,
30:08and some of this just practical.
30:09So basically saying, so for instance,
30:12when I started the lab,
30:13when there were three of us,
30:14I was in the lab doing experiments,
30:16doing surgeries,
30:16all those types of things.
30:18I can't physically do that
30:19anymore unless I never sleep.
30:21So being willing to let go of
30:22some things and realize that in
30:24order to say yes to one thing,
30:25I might have to say no to something else,
30:28or I might have to delegate something else,
30:29or I might have to change my leadership
30:32structure within my lab, for instance.
30:33Or even in terms of how I go about engaging
30:37with different requests that I get.
30:39So I mean,
30:40even practical things like being
30:41a person who is so focused on
30:43relationship and wanting to
30:44personally respond to every e-mail,
30:46but then realizing that that's not practical.
30:48If I'm getting all these
30:49requests all the time,
30:50it can be helpful to have someone
30:52who can represent me and respond
30:53for me and then getting over the
30:55guilt of not responding to the
30:56e-mail and then realizing that
30:58people are actually fine with that.
30:59So it's a learning process,
31:00but some of it's trial and error.
31:01I mean,
31:02there have been things I've said yes to
31:03that while I'm in the middle of them,
31:04I'm thinking, oh,
31:05I really should not said yes to this.
31:08So that helps me the next time if
31:10it's a similar request, realizing,
31:11OK, let me take a little bit more.
31:14What's the right word?
31:15Courage isn't the right word,
31:17but that's what it feels like,
31:18courage to actually say no when I
31:19should say no so I can say yes to
31:21other things. So not perfected yet.
31:24Yeah,
31:25it's a work in progress for everybody. OK.
31:28So going back to 'cause we are obviously
31:31here in an academic medical context,
31:34so advancement, promotion, tenure,
31:40how has that those how have those questions?
31:46I'm trying to think how to phrase
31:48this question fed into your openness
31:51to doing non work that might not
31:55traditionally count for that.
31:57How have you skirted that or you know,
32:00navigated that?
32:01Yeah, good question.
32:02So I'm going to decide how I'm going
32:04to to phrase it in terms of responses
32:06because I know this is recorded,
32:07which is completely fine.
32:10But I said that with a copy.
32:12Turn it off. Yeah.
32:13So I think I've tried to be intentional,
32:16but there are also circumstances
32:17of a change of time.
32:18So this is something I've
32:19shared in different settings.
32:20I was actually,
32:20I'm a fellow at the at Trumbull College.
32:23I was sharing with some of the
32:24faculty about this last week as well.
32:26But I think part of it goes
32:27back to that rebellion side,
32:28which I talked about before,
32:30not in the same way it was
32:30when I was a middle schooler,
32:31thankfully.
32:32I probably wouldn't be sitting here
32:34but not wanting to be pitching A
32:37holed into a certain expectation,
32:39but then also knowing there are
32:41certain things that need to be done.
32:43So obviously I still have a passion for
32:45the research and the neuroscience and
32:47there are certain scientific questions
32:48that I would like to see answered.
32:50But I've also talked to people who
32:52have done lots of high profile
32:54papers over the years and have
32:56acknowledged how time consuming
32:57those types of endeavors have been.
33:00Not to say that if that doesn't happen,
33:02I wouldn't be pleased or feel like
33:04we're moving the field forward,
33:05but also having a realistic expectation.
33:08There's certain things that I can't
33:10do on the academic side and continue
33:12to do on the public facing side and
33:14continue to do in my diversity of
33:17inclusion leadership all the same
33:18level because I'm only one person.
33:20I'm working with teams,
33:21but there has to be kind of a choice about
33:24what are the things that I truly value.
33:26And so some of that should be inherent,
33:28but some of that I've also gotten from
33:30just working with different communities.
33:31So even as I was talking about
33:32the event that we did in New York,
33:34to see the way that people respond to that,
33:37I got to a point where I was able,
33:39I had the,
33:40I guess in the sense the the luxury or
33:42the privilege to decide that I was not
33:45necessarily going to pursue the loopholes.
33:47I needed to get to certain state,
33:48but just do the work that needs to
33:50be done because it needs to be done.
33:52And I was fortunate in the sense that
33:54at that time there were other schools
33:57that were also invested and involved.
33:59So I was privileged enough to say,
34:01I think this needs to be done and I
34:04have a position to do it here at Yale,
34:07but even if it's not supported here,
34:10there's other places I could do it.
34:12And so that that's just kind of
34:13the reality of the situation.
34:15I know that not everybody can be
34:16in that place, but I felt like,
34:18and then thankfully,
34:19Yo has been supportive of that.
34:21But that kind of internal shift
34:24in my approach
34:25gave me the intellectual freedom to actually
34:27pursue the things that need to be pursued.
34:29And also changed some of my
34:31relationships with leadership as well.
34:33Because I noticed in myself that I
34:35stopped going into certain meetings,
34:37presenting my CV and waiting for feedback.
34:39And I more so said,
34:40these are the things that are important,
34:42these are the things that we're doing.
34:43And then I actually started
34:44to receive more mentorship.
34:45So I would say it was,
34:46it was mutual in that sense,
34:48but there was a lot of
34:50intentionality that came with that.
34:50And some of that was circumstances because
34:52I was for time at the times I was wondering,
34:54would I be able to do that here?
34:55But then again,
34:57seeing the responses from the
34:58public and from other institutions
34:59gave me that freedom to say, OK,
35:01this is important, it needs to be done.
35:03And I have the freedom to
35:04be able to pursue that.
35:06Yeah. And I, and I think it also
35:09speaks very much to the idea
35:11of doing values driven work,
35:13which is something that we've started
35:14to really talk about internally,
35:16the child study center and at the
35:17the School of Medicine that it's not
35:19just about tell me how high to jump,
35:20I'll jump even higher.
35:22But it's actually about, no,
35:23you're, you're at the center of
35:24your career at directing things.
35:26And how do you bring yourself forward and
35:29then negotiate right with the larger system.
35:31That's what I'm hearing a
35:32lot and what you're saying.
35:33Yeah, Yeah. OK.
35:34So one piece we haven't really
35:35talked that that much about.
35:37I've got just a couple more questions
35:39before I open it up to all of you.
35:41One piece is the DEI piece.
35:44So I'm hearing it the strand
35:46throughout everything,
35:47but can you share a little
35:48bit more about the,
35:50the like the nature of your work,
35:52how you got into that work at at Yale,
35:56etcetera?
35:58Good question. I'm going to try
36:00and keep it succinct cause part of
36:01that has been over a span of years.
36:03So I think part of that is my
36:05internal drive to really mentor.
36:08And so that's always been a
36:09passion of mine because I feel
36:11like I had really good mentors.
36:13Actually, I've still been in
36:14touch with my undergrad mentor.
36:15I saw him when I gave a talk.
36:16So I went to do for undergrad.
36:17I gave a talk at North in North
36:19Carolina last year and got to
36:20catch up with him a little bit.
36:21And so to see his long term
36:23investment in me was really
36:25endearing and just to his passion.
36:26And you know, he's been trying to
36:27recruit me back for the last 15 years,
36:29which I think it's just an
36:30inheritance to a former mentor,
36:32but perspective wise.
36:33So I remember telling people, oh, you know,
36:35I've been in touch with him for 25 years.
36:37I was on a Zoom call a couple
36:39years ago with Jones Stein's and
36:40she was talking about going to
36:42I think University of Michigan.
36:43And she was saying, oh,
36:45I got to catch up with my first grad
36:46student and we've been in touch for 50 years.
36:48And I was like, OK,
36:49my 25 years is nothing.
36:52But it was really nice and
36:53endearing to hear that same kind
36:55of long term relationship that
36:56she was talking about as well.
36:58So to get back to your question,
37:00I feel like I've done a lot of
37:01mentorship just in general,
37:02but especially with students
37:04from underrepresented backgrounds
37:05when they've come here and said,
37:06oh,
37:07I didn't see many people that look like me,
37:09it was really helpful to be
37:10able to connect with you.
37:10And so they'll be able to do that
37:12informally with students has been ongoing,
37:14but I've also done a lot
37:15of formal things as well.
37:16So there's a group here
37:18called the Collective,
37:18which is out of the biological and
37:21biomedical sciences PhD program.
37:22They had a previous iteration called
37:23the Yale Minority Science Network.
37:25I was able to kind of serve as
37:26a faculty consultant for them.
37:28I've had different students that
37:29have come through my lab,
37:30different summer programs.
37:31I've also been involved in some of
37:33the things at the post doctoral level.
37:35You all may be familiar with
37:36belonging at Yale.
37:37I was really fortunate to be involved
37:38in some of the initial conversations
37:40in that with Kim Goff Cruz and the
37:42working group that Dean Lattimore
37:43had allowed me to participate in.
37:45And then also obviously the
37:46role that I have now,
37:47which is more faculty facing,
37:49but basically it's a passion that has
37:52become more formal over the years,
37:55more formal over the years.
37:56And so it's been helpful for me
37:58to be able to be involved.
38:00A big piece of that was the Minority
38:02Organization for Attention Expansion or more,
38:04which you mentioned.
38:05And Cindy Crusto,
38:06Dr.
38:06Cindy Crusto,
38:07who's one of the founders of Moore,
38:09had asked me at some point, well,
38:10what's something you'd like to see more,
38:11do more of, for lack of a better word?
38:13I said mentorship and said, oh,
38:15why don't you come on board and lead
38:16some of our mentorship initiatives.
38:18So again, someone who was a a
38:20supporter sponsor in that way,
38:22which gave me a way to kind
38:23of start to facilitate that,
38:25but then also to get involved in leadership
38:27because we meet regularly with a Dean.
38:29And so part of it has been
38:30in evolving over time,
38:31but part of it has been a passion
38:33and having the structure in place
38:35through collaboration that I've been
38:37able to facilitate that as well.
38:38But hopefully that gets a little
38:39bit of an overview.
38:40There's a lot of detail I
38:41could go into as well.
38:41But
38:42yeah, but but just that it's organic
38:44to some of the work that you're doing.
38:46Yeah. OK, all right, so final
38:48question for me and then whoever
38:50else has questions, please ask.
38:54So one of the values for the School of
38:59Medicine, one of the five core values that
39:01leaders should have or should, you know,
39:04aspire to have 21st century leaders.
39:06I'm not even saying the sentence correctly.
39:07The 21st century leaders at the School
39:09of Medicine should aspire to have.
39:11There we go. Is the idea of
39:13generativity or or giving back.
39:15So if you were to, you know,
39:18often times in coaching there,
39:19it's something called like
39:20the legacy exercise.
39:20Looking back at your career,
39:22what do you hope that your biggest,
39:23you know, contributions will be?
39:25So in that spirit of
39:28generativity and giving back,
39:30what do you what do you
39:31hope to leave behind?
39:33Wow,
39:35I take some thought.
39:36I'm impressed with the question.
39:40Maybe the people. I mean,
39:42one thing that comes to mind is that
39:44people would say that I was generous
39:46with my time and also with the
39:49knowledge that I was able to acquire,
39:52not just to kind of keep it for myself,
39:54but to share with others in a way
39:56they could empower them as well.
39:58And so getting back to the hip Hop Rs,
39:59I mentioned Lecrae at one point
40:01when he was on the podcast.
40:02He said he feels like academia
40:04has all this information,
40:05but we've taken the megaphone and like,
40:08pointed it at ourselves and like
40:11nothing is coming out the other end.
40:12So I think that really stuck with me.
40:15And I was already trying to do that,
40:16but really making sure that we
40:18can actually communicate what we
40:20do in a way that helps others,
40:21even in ways that aren't expected.
40:23So I referenced that story about
40:24talking about behaviors in the rat.
40:25That was not my plan,
40:28but that was still something
40:29that stuck with that individual.
40:30And so being able to continue
40:32to do those things.
40:33And I guess part of it,
40:34this will sound a little bit more religious,
40:36but kind of just being faithful in
40:38my calling and in the privileges
40:40that I've been given to not just
40:42keep them for myself or my lab even,
40:44but really pass those on to broader
40:46communities and to which includes
40:48academic communities as well.
40:52Wonderful. Thank you. Great.
40:55OK, who has questions,
41:04Larry? Yes, Larry,
41:07that was really wonderful. Thank you.
41:09One of the things that
41:11kind of struck me as when you you said,
41:12wait a minute, I got to be careful,
41:13this is being recorded.
41:14And it just touched something
41:16in me when you said it.
41:19And, and I think often about
41:21things like what holds us back?
41:23What holds me back,
41:24what holds us back from doing
41:26the things that we want to do.
41:28And something I've
41:29been thinking a lot about is
41:33I'm an old guy.
41:34I've been around a while. You know,
41:36I used to be able to make a mistake.
41:38I'm sorry, what'd you say?
41:40Thank you. Thank you.
41:42Thank you very much.
41:42But we used to be able to make mistakes.
41:44And then I'd say, hey, you know,
41:46I didn't exactly mean it that way.
41:49Can I, can I have a Mulligan?
41:51Can I redo this?
41:52And you'd say, sure.
41:53What, what did you mean?
41:55And and you can only do that
41:57now with very trusted friends.
42:01And I think it holds us back.
42:04I feel sometimes it does me, you know,
42:06I, I felt a little bit of that
42:08just before I asked this question.
42:09Like, I don't want this.
42:10I don't want to make a mistake because
42:12I can't explain it and redo it.
42:15You know, it's videoed,
42:17it's on social media.
42:19It's, you know, that's it.
42:21What's your thoughts about that?
42:23I mean, how do we think out loud?
42:24How do we think together?
42:25How do I ask you what you
42:27really meant by that without
42:29causing hurt and harm?
42:32Yeah,
42:32that's a great question.
42:33So just to repeat it for those online.
42:35So this tension of not being able to
42:37make mistakes when we are talking
42:39with each other or asking things
42:41and how we can actually move forward
42:43and be able to have those rooms
42:45for mistakes and actually I guess
42:47make an impact in a sense too.
42:49I think it's a great question.
42:50It's something that I've
42:52thought about quite a bit,
42:54and I think there's different layers to it.
42:56So some of that I mentioned, I guess,
42:58within the lab group and feeling
43:00like I was trying with mistakes I
43:02made in my own leadership to create
43:04a culture within the lab group
43:06where people could learn how to
43:08have dialogues across difference,
43:10which I know has been a really key
43:12emphasis for places like Dartmouth.
43:14And then being able to kind of
43:16work through the hurt that comes
43:17through that as well at times.
43:19I mean,
43:20that's easier to do within a
43:21group more than a small group,
43:23more difficult to do on a large platform.
43:26I mean,
43:27I think there are bigger societal pieces
43:29there around cancel culture as well.
43:31And so this actually is a question
43:33that's helpful because it also
43:34shows how I've been able to
43:35actually garner some of that from
43:37some of the conversations I've
43:38had with people on the podcast.
43:39So Michael Eric Dyson was one person
43:41who came on the podcast probably
43:43three years ago or so who I think
43:46is at Vanderbilt at the moment,
43:47but talks,
43:47you know,
43:48across the country about aspects of race
43:50and religion and different things like that.
43:53But he often time talks,
43:55often times talks about the
43:56danger of cancel culture and
43:58sometimes specifically references,
43:59I want to say Virginia,
44:01I might be getting it wrong.
44:02But one,
44:02I think this was the I think this
44:04was the governor who had gotten in
44:05trouble for doing blackface in college,
44:08who basically, you know,
44:09painted his face and done that
44:11whole character and how everybody
44:13was quick to cancel him.
44:15But what Michael Dyson pointed out is
44:17the fact that he didn't get cancelled.
44:19People actually sat down,
44:21listened,
44:22and this person has been someone who has had,
44:25who's actually made some of the
44:27most transformative changes in that
44:29state in terms of trying to have
44:31better equity for people of colour
44:34because he didn't get cancelled
44:35and because he had time to be
44:37restored and then actually use that
44:39restoration to make an impact.
44:41So from that example, I take,
44:44you know, if we don't,
44:45obviously if we don't give
44:46ourselves time to grow,
44:47we're going to lose a lot of the benefit
44:49that can come through growth as well.
44:50And I think there's a lot of things
44:52from our spiritual traditions
44:53which touches on that as well,
44:54the things you can learn through going
44:56something painful or where you made
44:58a mistake and the importance of forgiveness.
45:00And so I'm getting more towards
45:01the spiritual and philosophical,
45:02but I think it's so important.
45:04It's hard to to practically live out,
45:07but I feel like if we can do that
45:08in our own spheres of influence that
45:10hopefully that can propagate as well.
45:12And I appreciate you asking the
45:14question even as you were feeling
45:16that internal tension as well.
45:17So definitely appreciate it.
45:26I was thinking a lot about like
45:29your initial story about the
45:32person who kind of mentioned
45:34how one of her family members,
45:36she wasn't able to progress
45:38because she thought, you know,
45:39she wasn't praying hard enough and all that.
45:42Next year I'll be attending an institution
45:44that does have a religious affiliation
45:46that I don't necessarily align with.
45:48So I guess like,
45:49how do you mitigate those clients and
45:52that perspective without being like
45:55insensitive and kind of invalidating them?
45:57Yeah. So the question was how to
45:59mitigate different people's perspective
46:01in terms of if their clients,
46:03if you're not necessarily aligned
46:04with their faith tradition or this
46:07is going back to the story I shared
46:09earlier on about individual who
46:10said that her aunt wasn't getting
46:12help and wasn't was being told
46:13that she wasn't prey to her now.
46:14So basically how to kind
46:15of navigate through that,
46:16which I think is a really good question.
46:18So again, this all these questions
46:19you can see you kind of tie back to
46:22different experiences that I've had.
46:23But during the pandemic,
46:24well before the pandemic,
46:26I was on sabbatical.
46:27So I was actually spending time
46:28with clinical psychology interns at
46:30Montefiore Hospital in the Bronx.
46:32And this was something I felt
46:33like they did really well.
46:34So they're really intentional about
46:36partnering with the community.
46:38So people in the people who are going
46:40through the clinical psychology
46:41training had all different backgrounds
46:43in terms of faith traditions or
46:45those who identify as atheists,
46:46but they also knew that those they were
46:48serving also had a lot of different
46:50faith traditions and backgrounds.
46:51So we actually had intentional
46:52partnerships to spend time with
46:54different communities and learn,
46:56even just learning the language
46:57of how people talked about
46:58what they navigate through,
47:00even if it didn't necessarily align with
47:02everything that they themselves believed.
47:04It helped them build trust and also
47:06helped them gain the language to
47:08help the people they were trying
47:09to help navigate through those.
47:11So not that that's a straightforward
47:12question per SE,
47:13but it really was kind of a a partnership
47:16together that helped them navigate
47:19through Another funny story that comes up.
47:21So Doctor Charles DK,
47:22who's here in the psychiatry department,
47:24actually talked about spiritual and
47:26biological components of mental health
47:28and talked about that on the podcast.
47:30The evidence that he had found
47:31in a in a funny way.
47:33So you can actually help people.
47:34People sometimes do better
47:35when they can integrate,
47:36you know,
47:37spiritual traditions and say
47:39cognitive behavioral therapy.
47:40But it's most effective if it comes
47:42from someone who doesn't share that
47:44same faith background or trajectory,
47:46which I think speaks.
47:48There's lots of things we
47:49could speculate about that.
47:50But I think that can be helpful in this
47:52situation that you mentioned as well,
47:53that it's not that the person
47:54even has to align,
47:55but there's something about having that
47:57empathy and that understanding which
47:59actually helps people move through.
48:00So hopefully that gives you some
48:02encouragement as you're thinking
48:03about this next step as well.
48:11Thanks so much for that,
48:12That was awesome.
48:13Obviously, we're here in the Child
48:14Study Centre and we think a lot
48:16about early life experiences,
48:17developmental experiences,
48:19and you mentioned about your early
48:21mentorship experiences.
48:22Is there anything that you remember
48:23about how you cultivated that
48:25relationship with your mentor
48:27that led to being such a kind of
48:30sustained and positive relationship?
48:31And is there any advice that you
48:33give to your trainees and mentees
48:35about how to kind of cultivate
48:37positive relationships with
48:38mentors or how to seek out mentors?
48:40Yeah, that's a great question.
48:40So positive, like positive
48:42long term mentorship pieces.
48:44I would say for me,
48:46I didn't actually cultivate that
48:47with my initial mentors much,
48:48but it was a lot of his
48:50initiation and persistence.
48:51I mean, even though I made the joke
48:52about him trying to recruit me back,
48:53that shows his persistence.
48:55And that's basically how he's
48:57been in our entire relationship.
48:59So keeping those lines of communication open.
49:02There's a national conference we
49:03would usually go to and he would have
49:06basically a dinner with all of his
49:08former mentees at that conference.
49:09So I think just practically some of
49:11it is just like staying in touch and
49:14being intentional and not letting
49:15the business of life crowd that out.
49:17In terms of for my own mentees,
49:19one thing that I've tried to do is
49:21also be really intentional about that.
49:22But this also gets back to this whole
49:25aspect of communication and trying to
49:26make sure that we have really open and
49:29honest communication from day one.
49:31Because I've seen so many mentorship
49:32relationships where you have a
49:34really well-intentioned hands off
49:36mentor and a really well-intentioned
49:38hands on mentee and they're just
49:39in completely different places.
49:41So I'm one thing it would be
49:42helpful if they actually spoke that
49:43out loud and acknowledge that.
49:44So I try to have those conversations
49:46early on and say, OK, well,
49:48we're in different places.
49:49How can we compromise and actually think
49:51about what that means to move this forward?
49:53And then also,
49:54not to be negative,
49:56but I also tell people we don't like,
49:57you can decide at that point that maybe
49:59this isn't the best mentor relation
50:00for us to work in the same team.
50:02Maybe it should shift into another way.
50:03And I think sometimes we get scared
50:05to have those conversations when
50:06they're actually more productive
50:08and helpful long term.
50:09But then just think about that on
50:11several different other aspects,
50:12thinking about people's experiences
50:13and what they've gone through.
50:15I was able fortunate to host somebody
50:17who does a lot of work around trauma
50:19informed mentorship and trauma informed
50:20teaching and trauma informed care.
50:22So even acknowledging that people's
50:23experiences are going to impact
50:25the mentoring relationship,
50:26how they show up to work.
50:28So I'd,
50:28I'd say a lot of it is just intentionality,
50:30to be completely honest.
50:34Yeah, that's us.
50:36I really, I think a lot about
50:41the factors that, I don't know,
50:43limit how academic institutions
50:47share and disseminate information.
50:50And I really like the megaphone
50:52examples that look great.
50:54And I think about the
50:55position that you're in.
50:56And that's something I've always
50:58like entertained and the idea
51:00of having a platform where you
51:03can connect with people outside
51:05of like a formal relationship.
51:07And I'm kind of wondering,
51:09based on your episodes and talks,
51:12like what feedback are you getting
51:14as to which topics are people
51:17most interested in learning about?
51:18You know what, what?
51:20What is there a big appetite for
51:22just in terms of knowing how to
51:24think and what the needs are?
51:27Yeah, it's a really good question.
51:28So what people's kind of big appetite has
51:30been in the different Conversations episodes?
51:32It's hard for me to pinpoint because
51:34we've covered so many different types
51:37of topics and I feel like people pick up
51:40the stuff that's really relevant to them.
51:42So even initially, like I got some feedback
51:45that that might not be the best approach
51:48because they're people from marketing
51:49or basically like you're basically,
51:51what's the right word,
51:53like dispersing your audience.
51:55So from a marketing standpoint,
51:56you kind of want to find your
51:58niche and pursue that.
51:59But then at the same point,
52:00I had other people who said,
52:01but that's who you are.
52:02So you're just being true to who you are.
52:03So like if we have an NBA player come on,
52:06then that kind of pulls 1 cohort of people.
52:09If we have a pastor,
52:10that pulls another cohort.
52:10If we had the president of the
52:12American Psychological Association
52:13that pulled another cohort.
52:15So I've kind of just come to terms
52:17with that and been fine with it.
52:19But there have been different themes
52:21that have come up along the way.
52:23Initially I was trying to focus
52:25primarily on public audiences,
52:26which has definitely happened.
52:27But then just because of the circles I'm in,
52:30there was also pulling a lot,
52:31pulling in a lot of scientists.
52:33And my initial reaction was like,
52:34no, that's not what I'm trying to do.
52:35Why is that happening?
52:37Which sounds like a bad reaction.
52:39And it was.
52:39But then it was also helpful
52:40for me to hear from scientists,
52:42oh,
52:42this is helping me think about things
52:44that are actually impacting the science
52:46I didn't quite think about before.
52:48So I'd say probably the consistent
52:49theme has been the integration and
52:50that people have been able to think
52:52about things outside the box of what
52:54they would have thought about otherwise.
52:56And so that's been really helpful to see.
52:59And then the other thing is
53:00I think different people see
53:02themselves in different situations,
53:03in different scenarios.
53:04Because I've had people on campus
53:06who've come up to me and said,
53:07oh, this, you know,
53:08like this one episode you had on black
53:10buys representation in art and science,
53:12like that really spoke to me.
53:13Like the speaker, the artist was
53:15talking about his experience in college.
53:16I really resonated with that.
53:18Or another episode where someone
53:19will say the same thing.
53:20So in a sense,
53:21I don't actually have a good answer for that,
53:24but it's kind of different things
53:25have come up in different pockets,
53:26which I finally came to terms with
53:28saying that's fine even if the
53:30audience is quote UN quote fractured.
53:32Because in a sense that fracturing
53:34has also allowed me to speak in
53:35lots of different places.
53:36Like I mentioned the Bar Association or
53:38a group of superintendents or speaking
53:40at A at a high school or in a church,
53:43Like those are all very different types of
53:45environments. Yeah, that's awesome.
53:48How do you decide what your
53:49next episode is going to be? So
53:53some things I've kind of
53:54had in my mind for a while.
53:55So some of that has been opportunistic
53:57in terms of being connected to
53:59people that are speaking about that.
54:01Things that I just noticed when I'm
54:02kind of in general public settings.
54:04And a lot of it over time has actually
54:06been networking within the guests.
54:08This one guest will come on and say,
54:09oh, have you thought about this topic
54:11and then connect me to someone else?
54:12Or if I've gone to speak at a certain place,
54:15someone will,
54:15something will come up with that again.
54:16So like the one we have coming up,
54:18I gave, I did an event in Saint
54:21Louis about a year ago working with
54:23a counseling center that had been
54:25basically started 30 years ago out
54:27of one particular church and had
54:30really grown to be a regional kind
54:32of support network for people.
54:33So I was able to speak at that conference,
54:35meet with a lot of different people,
54:37and then also got connected with
54:39a psychiatrist who does a lot of
54:41work in the city in Saint Louis,
54:42works with a lot of kids from different
54:44backgrounds and underserved communities,
54:45does a lot around cannabis and just talking
54:48to him and kind of hearing his story.
54:50So he basically was like, if you ever want
54:52me to come and talk about these things.
54:53I mean, he's built such a,
54:55by his own definition,
54:55he says he's a quirky white guy,
54:57but he's built such a rapport
54:59amongst that place.
55:00Like the kids in that community.
55:02Is Doctor Glazer referred
55:03to him as the OG Doctor G?
55:06So like hearing stories.
55:06So some of those like when I hear those,
55:08I was like,
55:08OK,
55:08I definitely have to have this
55:09type of person on the podcast.
55:10So some of it's just opportunistic,
55:12some of it's intentional.
55:13It's a little bit of little
55:14bit of everything.
55:15So
55:20thanks.
55:22Anything else? Are
55:25there questions? And are you
55:26probably checking online just
55:27to see you're on top of things?
55:36So I was wondering if for the last
55:38minutes you care to share what your
55:40view of holistic care is 'cause
55:42we're talking a lot about, you know,
55:44including perspectives of faith and honor
55:46signs and thinking outside the box.
55:48And I was just wondering whether you could
55:50speak what you really think that has an
55:53impact on for holistic clinical. Yeah,
55:55that's a really good question.
55:56So just talking about holistic care.
55:59So for me, I really just
56:01try and globalize it.
56:02So it's not good to start a question
56:04with a like a negative answer,
56:05but I'll say what I feel like it's not.
56:07And So what it's not is 1 size fits
56:09all approaches to mental health.
56:11And that's the stuff that's
56:12always really frustrated me.
56:13And so I tried to talk about that
56:16in that perspective and to also
56:18help people think about, well,
56:19there might be something outside the box
56:20of what they were thinking about already,
56:22whether they were using one psychological
56:24practice or modality or intervention.
56:26Maybe there's another one
56:27that they could also try.
56:28And obviously people have different
56:31reservations about medication.
56:32That's something I often talk
56:34about in public science as well.
56:35It's much easier for people to think about
56:37taking an antidepressant or something
56:38from anxiety when you hear antipsychotic,
56:40that kind of evokes a different feeling.
56:43So really just I guess having people
56:46open to integrating across those and
56:48not being stuck on one approach only.
56:51And I've gotten a lot of good feedback when
56:53I've talked about that in certain groups,
56:54'cause there's always those who said, no,
56:56I haven't thought about this that way before.
56:58And there are others who
56:59come up to me and say,
57:00oh,
57:00this is really helpful to hear you kind
57:02of summarize that in one talk because
57:04it's taken me 10 years to figure it out.
57:06So people who say,
57:07oh,
57:07I've integrated medication and
57:09spiritual practices and therapy,
57:10and I've had to kind of move
57:12with those over time and see
57:13things which are more helpful.
57:15So I guess I mean,
57:15I would say kind of in that global sense.
57:18One thing I would also mention,
57:20I know we didn't talk about this as much,
57:21but I feel like some of these
57:23conversations I've been able to have
57:26have actually helped organizations
57:27move towards a more holistic approach.
57:30So the event we did in New York in 2019,
57:33the American allies get the
57:35acronym wrong ABCT,
57:37American cognitive behavioral,
57:39I
57:42can behavioral therapy associated.
57:44So the CBT, national CBT organization,
57:46basically they were,
57:47so there were a lot of mental health
57:49groups at that events that had sponsor
57:52tables and they had gotten so much
57:54feedback from participants about the
57:56importance of spiritual practice.
57:57They actually changed their database
57:59to include a box about religion
58:01or faith tradition or background.
58:03So in that sense,
58:04that was not a goal,
58:05but there were these kind of practical
58:07outcomes that came when I could see
58:09large organizations actually pivoting
58:10in terms of how they were doing things
58:12to help make things more holistic.
58:13So that's been really gratifying as well.
58:23Yes, one more yes, I'm I'm Elena Agori.
58:27I'm a psychiatry for child and adolescent.
58:30I come from Italy NA currently work
58:34in Spain and just arriving and no,
58:37I just was thinking about not
58:40only the holistic perspective,
58:43but the accessibility and the treatment.
58:46So they they recently they were
58:48they were sorry by English.
58:50They were head organization come out
58:53with the the give line and you give
58:56line the the they call psychological
58:59intervention implementation manual.
59:00And they talk about yes,
59:02a treatment is effective,
59:04but how about the accessibility?
59:07Nobody can go through the the mental
59:11health only in the environment
59:12that you we was talking with in
59:15the lab about this yesterday.
59:16So I think it's a very good point
59:19to make this odd and each I don't
59:23know what you think about this,
59:25but yeah,
59:26I would definitely agree with you.
59:27The accessibility has been a really
59:29important barrier in a lot of ways.
59:31And so that's been more difficult
59:33for me to address directly,
59:35although I'll say I've had
59:36opportunities to at least contribute
59:38to some of those conversations.
59:40So I was able to speak at the
59:42behavioral health conference out in
59:43Washington state about a year ago.
59:44And there were people who were on the
59:45ground thinking about these things,
59:46but just basically putting
59:48things in context in terms of.
59:50So they had me come and talk about
59:52mental health disparities in particular.
59:54And this is outside your question,
59:55but that was also a stretching
59:57experience because my initial
59:59academic reaction was like,
60:00I haven't studied that for 10 years.
01:00:01I can't speak about that, which,
01:00:04but then realizing that I had been
01:00:06interacting with so many different
01:00:07people who were doing that work,
01:00:08I've been in those conversations
01:00:10as an academic.
01:00:11I also knew how to do research and to at
01:00:13least build kind of a story around that.
01:00:15And so there was enough for me to
01:00:17actually go that and integrate across
01:00:19different things to help them think
01:00:20about that a little more specifically.
01:00:22But I think that really gets to the place of,
01:00:24I mean,
01:00:24there are policies that have to change.
01:00:26And so that's integrating across
01:00:28different groups as well.
01:00:30Former Congressman Patrick Kennedy
01:00:31came on the podcast and talked
01:00:32about a lot of the work that he had
01:00:33done that he's continuing to do,
01:00:35which really changed some of
01:00:36that access type of things.
01:00:38I was able to be a panelist for
01:00:39a re entry conference for those
01:00:41who are formerly incarcerated,
01:00:43who are coming back into society,
01:00:45many of whom had their first
01:00:47mental health access,
01:00:48mental health care access in prison.
01:00:50And so there's so many different
01:00:51things that need to change.
01:00:52There's no simple answer,
01:00:53but I think ultimately it takes a lot of
01:00:57collaboration between us as academics,
01:00:58working with those in political arenas,
01:01:01working in grassroots organizations,
01:01:03thinking together,
01:01:04and then actually making practical
01:01:05steps to move things forward.
01:01:06So it's a great, it's a great comment.
01:01:10Hey, we are at time.
01:01:12Thank you everybody.
01:01:13Thank you so much. Thanks
01:01:14for hosting me. Great.