Yale Global Initiative on Climate Change and Public Health Ethics: "Climate Change and Public Health Ethics: Our Duty to Displaced Global Populations"

March 31, 2022

Dr. Laura Bothwell joined the Center on Climate Change and Health to discuss her work with displaced global populations.

February 21, 2022

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00:00<v ->Economic expansion. All sorts of areas</v>
00:04of human consumption and travel
00:07and resource use increasing very significantly.
00:12And this has had a significant effect
00:15on greenhouse gas emissions,
00:17particularly over the past 70 years.
00:20So I like this chart
00:22which shows global primary energy consumption since 1800.
00:28And you can see historically humans
00:30typically relied on traditional biogas, wood, cow dung,
00:34resources directly available for energy production
00:38and we've had this shift over the past century plus toward
00:43particularly fossil fuels.
00:46But what I think is interesting is that even as
00:49we've had rapid developments of technologies for green
00:54and sustainable energy use,
00:56we haven't seen the shift in our actual consumption relying
01:01on those as primary sources of energy.
01:03We're still very dependent on the early sources of energy
01:07from the industrial revolution with coal, oil, and then
01:12we've had the more recent development of natural gas.
01:16But we can see that we have a long way to go
01:18in terms of shifting toward energy that will be sustainable.
01:25So thinking about the scenario that has resulted
01:30from greenhouse gas consumption,
01:33climate change is contributing to desertification,
01:37sea level rise, resource scarcity, and increased frequency
01:41of extreme weather events particularly
01:43in low latitude areas forcing people from their homes.
01:47In 2020, weather related hazards such as storms
01:51and floods triggered 30.1 million displacement worldwide.
01:57The sea level is rising 12 millimeters a year
02:00in the western Pacific
02:01and has already submerged eight islands.
02:04By 2100 is estimated that 48 islands will be lost
02:08to the rising ocean.
02:10Countries such as Tuvalu, Kiribati and the Marshall Islands
02:13already experience ocean flooding that washes salt water
02:16onto agricultural lands
02:18and inundates drinking water sources.
02:20So it's quite likely that some islands
02:23will lose fresh water long before land is lost.
02:28Vulnerable communities are experiencing forced migration
02:32already throughout the world.
02:34So Pacific islands
02:35are having coastal erosion forcing residents
02:38to leave displacement in Asian countries is occurring
02:41due to severe storms.
02:44Climate impacts on rural livelihoods
02:46are forcing central agents to migrate
02:49to urban areas for survival.
02:51Less African coastal fishing villages are leaving
02:54due to the depletion of fish resources caused
02:57by ocean acidification as you see in this image here.
03:02Latin American droughts are forcing both internal
03:05and international migration.
03:09And the future of climate migration is looking
03:14to expand significantly.
03:15So the world bank estimates that three regions,
03:19Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia
03:22will generate 143 million more climate migrants
03:26by the year 2050.
03:30This is a map
03:31from the International Organization for Migration.
03:35They have regional maps for all of the major regions
03:38of the world that are experiencing climate related migration
03:43as a result of climate change.
03:45So I'd like to highlight on this map
03:47a couple of the key causes.
03:50So you have some climate change hotspots
03:54and you have risk of desertification,
03:58lower precipitation in some areas leading to floods
04:02that are preventing reliable growing of crops
04:07as populations have in the past relied upon.
04:10We also have some areas with less precipitation,
04:15again, impacting food production.
04:19We have negative agricultural changes, ecosystem changes,
04:23reduced water availability, depletion of fisheries,
04:28melting of glaciers which is leading to sedimentation
04:32and affecting again, water and crop supplies,
04:35there's impacts on mountain regions, coral bleaching,
04:39and of course sea level rise concerns.
04:41So I think this is a nice way just in one region to see
04:46the numerous ways in which climate change
04:49is affecting migration patterns and disrupting pre-existing
04:55reliable structures of assessments.
04:59We've also seen a trend historically documented
05:02in the scientific literature and increasingly
05:05in the defense department regarding the real human toll
05:11of disrupting reliable sources of water and of the impact
05:17of drought on leading to higher likelihood of conflict
05:22and conflict ultimately leading
05:25to migration changes as well.
05:28So we have the sort of natural effects that are occurring
05:34with humans having limited resources.
05:38But then of course there's a psychological
05:40and social dynamics that complicate and multiply
05:45the existing natural dynamics as individuals
05:49are competing for scarce resources,
05:52which historically has never led to a positive outcome.
05:56So how can we think about all of this ethically?
06:00I think what is really challenging on topics such as this,
06:03that involve marginalized global populations
06:06that tend to be invisible in society such as ours
06:10in our typical power structures,
06:13we need to try to think very objectively in ethics.
06:17So there are a set of ways of doing this
06:22that emphasis been put forth that I think are essential
06:25as we can try to bypass biases and prejudices
06:30and our failure to recognize
06:31the innate human rights inequality of all individuals.
06:35So first being reasonable not doctrinaire,
06:38listening actively to the voices,
06:40particularly the voices of those who don't have
06:44a powerful position in the world community,
06:49letting the best reasons determine judgments
06:51versus economics politics or other competing interests,
06:56remaining common optimistic in the face of controversy,
07:00but at the same time,
07:01being realistic about the situations and choices
07:04that we face and understanding that we don't necessarily
07:08have silver bullets here.
07:09And this is a problem that is going to require some level
07:12of active engagement in serious work.
07:17And also considering critically the approaches
07:20of different cultures,
07:21understanding that solutions to our existing climate crisis,
07:27ideally should be coming out of an open
07:31and sincere engagement with different cultural,
07:35ethical responses and implications
07:38of those ethical responses.
07:40Because we have a certain environment
07:43in which the industrialized nations are operating
07:47under social and cultural assumptions of how
07:52we should engage with the planet and the economic system
07:56in which we engage with the planet.
07:58And there are certainly other approaches from other cultures
08:01that are much more sustainable
08:03and from an ethical perspective,
08:04we have an obligation to be open and to consider the variety
08:10of approaches that could potentially lead
08:12to a more sustainable and effective and fair future
08:16for all populations around the planet.
08:20So there are some key ethical principles primary
08:23to climate change and health.
08:26Number one, scientific integrity.
08:28And this is the concept of honesty and truth telling.
08:32And I think this is a critical point to emphasize
08:35because oftentimes particularly in climate discussions,
08:40there is misinformation a whole host
08:44of industries promoting alternative pseudoscience.
08:51But we also have a tendency to avoid the gravity
08:55of the problem and to try to not deal with it
09:01because of the severity of the challenges
09:05that humanity faces.
09:06So there's an ethical value of telling the truth
09:11and being explicit about the reality that we are facing
09:16and to ensure that what we are sharing is unbiased
09:19and reflecting, not the cultural objectives
09:23of one specific environment,
09:25but the actual scientific scenario that the entire world
09:29is facing right now.
09:31The next core principle that I think is crucial here
09:34and that has been typically put forth in the literature
09:37on climate change and public health ethics
09:39is the concept of justice.
09:41And this is that public health professionals
09:43should highlight differences
09:45that affect health status unfairly,
09:48and that we should emphasize basic human rights
09:50and define activities and legal conditions to ensure
09:54the achievement of basic right and a decent life
09:57for all people regardless of their location of birth.
10:03And the third principle is the concept ethically of welfare.
10:07And this is the principle
10:08that every person's happiness counts,
10:11regardless of their location.
10:14All individuals around the world have an equal human right
10:19for their happiness to be considered.
10:24So the challenge of climate migration ethics is that,
10:29many of the migrating populations most affected
10:31by rising sea levels, drought and extreme heat
10:36are also populations that have
10:38had smaller carbon footprints.
10:40So this is a real justice question.
10:45Looking at our own population here in the United States,
10:49US populations have not been severely displaced
10:52by rising sea levels, drought and heat.
10:55We've had over a million individuals in the past affected
11:00by these issues, but we've also had substantial resources
11:05and abilities to respond to this challenge.
11:09But looking at a global sage,
11:11we are not the populations that are experiencing the effects
11:16of greenhouse gas consumption at the levels that others are
11:20with regard to displacement on account of rising sea level,
11:24drought, heat, and other anomalous weather disasters.
11:29However, we've contributed much more carbon per capita
11:33than most of the populations that are now having to relocate
11:37due in part to the climate effects of US carbon consumption.
11:41And so this is a nice map looking at 2020
11:44internally displaced populations
11:47from the Internal Displacement Monitoring Center.
11:51And so you can see that this is a problem that we feel,
11:54but again, given the economic capacities
11:57that we have to rebound from climate anomalies,
12:01we're not feeling the effects as severely as individuals
12:06with less resources available to them.
12:09But also we're simply not feeling looking at the map,
12:13the effects as severely as some parts of the world.
12:17So it's a real problem of creating a problem without feeling
12:22and seeing the consequences of our actions directly
12:25in our day to day lives the extent that other individual
12:29on the planet Earth.
12:32So thinking about the ethical value of scientific integrity,
12:36700 million people are in the most vulnerable countries
12:39to climate change, including Afghanistan, Bangladesh,
12:42Barbados, Bhutan, Costa Rica, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya,
12:47Kiribati, Madagascar, the Maldives, Nepal, the Philippines,
12:51Rwanda, Saint Lucia, Tanzania, Timor-Leste, Tuvalu,
12:56Vanuatu and Vietnam.
12:58While these countries are most at risk,
13:01they are among the lowest contributors of greenhouse gases
13:04that are primarily responsible
13:06for human cause climate change.
13:10So it's not just an ethical challenge, it's almost an irony,
13:13almost an ethical irony.
13:15But the individuals who are hardest hit by the effects
13:18of climate change are also those who are contributing least
13:23to the problem.
13:25These countries are also burdened with the double stress
13:29as they work to tackle
13:30internal climate related hazards, including displacement.
13:35They also serve as receiving countries
13:37to growing numbers of refugees.
13:43So again, thinking about the ethical value
13:45of scientific integrity as a way to frame our conversation
13:49and have an accurate understanding of the data upon
13:53which we can build an ethical argument
13:56for what should be done,
13:58the top three resource of greenhouse gas emissions
14:01are China, the United States and the European Union.
14:05And you can see in this chart,
14:08we're looking at tons per person of carbon consumption.
14:14And so the United States
14:16has on the highest per capita greenhouse gas emissions.
14:22And we also need to think about what is being covered
14:27in these types of measurements.
14:31Because this is looking at per capita consumption
14:35and we have typical dependence in the US on industries
14:42that are recorded typically in per capita consumption
14:45in the development of products, say in China
14:48that are then shipped to the United States for consumption.
14:53So we're also needing to be aware of the ways
14:56that other parts of the world are producing emissions
15:00in part to reflect our demand for consumption.
15:05So thinking about climate change ethics at a global scale,
15:10nations that contributed leads to climate change
15:13will be suffering the worst consequences.
15:16So this is a map that is adjusted on the top for billions
15:22of tons of carbon produced and the nations
15:27are inflated to show carbon production.
15:31And then on the bottom we're looking at
15:33the mortality per million in the population
15:36as a result of the effects of climate change.
15:39And you can see that particularly for sub-Saharan Africa,
15:45these are pretty severely disproportionate,
15:48so that they're facing the consequences of pre-assumption,
15:53that we are not facing the consequences of
15:56while at the same time,
15:58they're not causing the problem that they are dealing with.
16:03Similarly, you see this happening in South Asia.
16:07And if we are looking at the areas of the world
16:12that are going to be particularly vulnerable
16:16to sea level rise, a lot of that is in the Pacific region.
16:21And we also need to recognize that within countries,
16:24poor and marginalized populations are at greater risk,
16:29although we will all be vulnerable.
16:31So this is to say that what we've seen in the literature
16:36on climate change and health outcomes,
16:38is that impoverished individuals are more susceptible
16:44to keep related illness
16:47as a result of occupational exposure,
16:50more likely lower income individuals
16:53are going to be working outdoors
16:55than higher income individuals.
16:57And they're more likely to lose income as a result of days
17:01of not being able to work,
17:03but also working under stress conditions that are putting
17:06their bodies at higher risk of early morbidity and mortality
17:11due to worse elemental exposure.
17:15And then we also see individuals
17:16who are lower income having less access
17:19to cooling facilities,
17:21less access to personal air conditioning,
17:24and particularly in regions of the world but are low
17:30and middle income countries access to cooling facilities
17:34is not always readily available for all individuals
17:37who need it.
17:38And so this is also contributing
17:41to earlier morbidity and mortality.
17:45But at a global level we see this and within countries,
17:50individuals at the earlier and later ends
17:55of the life spectrum tend
17:56to be more vulnerable physiologically.
18:00Which is also to say that we all,
18:03as we age will be more vulnerable to the experiences
18:07of particularly heat exposures,
18:12something to consider as well.
18:15So the principle of justice is the next ethical concept
18:19that is really critical to thinking
18:21about the ethics of climate migration.
18:23So according to the principle of justice,
18:25populations that produce greenhouse gases
18:27are responsible for the consequences of our actions.
18:31This is justices at fairness and it's the same
18:34sort of justice principle that we see
18:36in our typical civil society laws where you break it
18:40and you buy it.
18:42You violate the policy of society, you use fee,
18:46you get a ticket.
18:48It's just a basic principle that we are responsible
18:51for the consequences of our own behaviors
18:54and our consumption.
18:55Climate migrants are without homes as a result
18:58of global carbon consumption.
19:01And so in a perfectly fair world,
19:02each population that is not itself displaced
19:06by climate change would be responsible
19:09for accommodating climate migrants in a ratio commensurate
19:12to that nation's responsibility for causing
19:15the climate refugee crisis.
19:17That is, nations would be held accountable
19:20for the human consequences
19:22of their greenhouse gas consumption.
19:24And the principle of fairness justifies policies
19:27in which producers of vast quantities
19:28of greenhouse gases welcome large numbers of refugees.
19:34Further the industrialized world
19:36has created climate changes displacing populations
19:40and forcing those individuals into migrant status.
19:43So the source of the problem is global and therefore,
19:47the response to this problem should equally be
19:50at a global level.
19:55We also have the ethical concept of human rights.
19:58So according to Article 25
20:00of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
20:04everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate
20:06for the health and wellbeing of him or herself
20:08and of his or her family, including food, clothing,
20:12housing, and medical care.
20:15All industrialized nations have agreed
20:17to the universal declaration of human rights
20:19and should endeavor therefore to achieve these rights
20:22for all global populations.
20:24We know that human rights are aspirational and some nations
20:28have accomplished them much more effectively than others,
20:32but nevertheless, all industrialized nations
20:35have agree to these objectives.
20:37And so, this is an important international statement
20:40that nations have made that we share
20:43these basic human values
20:45and we have an obligation regardless of national origins
20:50or geographic boundaries to support the human rights
20:54of individuals on other parts of the planet.
21:00Another critical ethical concept is humanitarianism.
21:06So climate migrants were displaced on account of processes
21:10and events far beyond their own individual control.
21:14For many generations, we have had humanitarian responses
21:18and infrastructures for aiding displaced persons
21:21who lost their homes to disasters or conflicts
21:24beyond their individual control.
21:27So a humanitarian ethic motivates efforts
21:30to help those individuals in dire need for survival.
21:39I'd also like to talk about Welfare and the Harm Principle
21:43as ethical guidelines for climate migration ethics.
21:49So John Stewart Mill has been a sort of touchstone thinker
21:54in public health ethics for many generations now.
21:59And according to Mill, the Harm Principle stipulates
22:04that we are all free to behave as we like
22:08within a society until our behaviors cause harm to others.
22:14Many emphasis will point out that the Harm Principle
22:16and itself is insufficient to account
22:19for the ethical obligations that we would like to achieve
22:22in public health because we have additional values
22:26of human rights, justice, equality and fairness
22:30in humanitarianism that we've already discussed.
22:33But the Harm Principle is another ethical support
22:39for thinking about climate migration
22:41in a way that is inclusive.
22:44And so according to the Harm Principle,
22:46everyone's happiness matters.
22:48The wellbeing and lives of displaced persons
22:50should therefore be considered.
22:53The wellbeing and lives of populations
22:55that produce large quantities of greenhouse gases
22:58should also be considered.
22:59However, according to the Harm Principle,
23:02the freedom of major polluters to continue causing damage
23:05to the planet should ethically be constrained
23:07to the extent that this behavior causes harm to others.
23:12Further the wellbeing of these populations
23:14must be considered in combination with other ethical demands
23:18that we have discussed.
23:20And I think that is an important interesting aside to make
23:23that while there is sound ethical justification
23:26for large greenhouse gas consumers to have an ethical duty
23:29to welcome climate refugees.
23:31Interestingly and completely independent
23:33of this ethical justification,
23:35nations that have produced large quantities
23:37of greenhouse gases stand to benefit economically
23:40from welcoming climate refugees on account
23:42of their aging domestic populations.
23:45Which to say that,
23:46even in this highly charged political climate
23:50where public health ethics intersect
23:54with the policy discussions,
23:56we have members of society who have taken stances
24:00of isolationism and closed border.
24:04Whereas as even conservative economists have pointed out
24:08that aging high income countries would stand to benefit
24:13from expanding their populations
24:17by welcoming international migrants to contribute
24:20to the economic capacity of those countries.
24:25So the is a sort of response to the utilitarian arguments
24:30that are typically made as a sort of ethical response
24:34from those who oppose welcoming strategies,
24:38which is to say that there's been an argument that bringing
24:42in individuals to a society takes jobs
24:48from that domestic population.
24:51And so there is an obligation that the society
24:55has to protect the jobs of their domestic populations
25:01so that they can find employment.
25:03This is sort of the argument that is made,
25:06that is not accounting for any of the social duties
25:11and obligations that we have to climate refugees
25:15as a result of our greenhouse gas consumption.
25:17But is an argument that's out there
25:19and I think it's something that should be engaged with.
25:22And interestingly from even utilitarian perspective,
25:27there is actually a good benefit to aging societies
25:34such as our own to bring in a broader work base
25:39to support our economy because we actually don't have
25:42the domestic workforce to supply the demand
25:46that we have for in employment even within
25:50the existing economy that we have.
25:53So, there's a really strong argument across all perspectives
26:00from the political spectrum for having
26:04a welcoming environment for the victim
26:08of global greenhouse gas consumption.
26:20So I'd like to close by asking the question then,
26:24given all of this information in all of these principles,
26:27what is our ethical duty to climate migrants?
26:32Major carbon-producing countries, such as the US,
26:36I would pause it,
26:37have an ethical obligation to address the relocation needs
26:40of large numbers of refugees who are migrating
26:44due to the effects of climate change.
26:47This is not something
26:48that has always been politically popular,
26:51and certainly if we look at even the acceptance that we have
26:56at our southern border of turning away today
26:59around 50% of applicants,
27:02many of these migrants are moving
27:05as a result of climate change.
27:07And I think we have an ethical obligation to be more open
27:13and to be more welcoming and to also face the consequences
27:19of our own historic benefits from exploiting
27:24the natural resources of the planet and also to realize
27:30the demands that those benefits place on other members
27:34of the global community and accommodating
27:38the consequences of our actions.
27:44So, I'm happy to take questions now.
27:54<v ->So I guess maybe should we have people put questions</v>
27:59into the chat Laura or in turns?
28:03<v ->Yeah, chat or raise hand?</v>
28:07<v ->Yeah, so I could start while people are thinking</v>
28:10of their questions.
28:14Do you know if there's any discussion internationally,
28:20like in the UN or otherwise about this issue and like,
28:26particularly, I know there's been discussion in the past
28:29of formally recognizing climate refugees
28:32as a class of refugees do you know if that's going anywhere?
28:38<v ->From what I've seen, there's progress being made,</v>
28:41the agencies that I've been consulting for this project
28:46have all been advocating for that shift.
28:50And I think that there's strong argument to be made.
28:56So there seems to be movement
28:59in this direction, Dr. Krispin?
29:09<v Instructor>Thank you so much, Laura.</v>
29:11You're making a strong case for why the US has an obligation
29:15to welcome so-called climate refugees and sort of building
29:20on what Rob just said, to my knowledge,
29:23there is no legal protection.
29:24The international law does not recognize climate refugees.
29:31So and my guess is,
29:34countries that are for acting quite reluctant
29:36including the United States to welcome any kind of refugees
29:40or political refugees, et cetera,
29:42I think there's gonna be a lot of pushback
29:44'cause if they add climate refugees to the list of refugees,
29:48all of a sudden they need to welcome because they've signed
29:52the agreement convention for refugees 1951.
29:55So I'm kind of trying to figure out
29:57how we can move forward with that.
30:01But another question I have is,
30:03a lot of these climate induced migrants
30:07are actually being dislocated internally.
30:10So they're internally displaced people.
30:12So whether they're in Somalia, whether they're in Sudan,
30:17most of them I guess is are not leaving the country
30:19because they can't, but they're leaving their home,
30:24they go into an urban setting looking for jobs.
30:27So it makes it even more complicated
30:30in terms of US obligation,
30:33should US be supporting the Somalian government.
30:36the Sudanese government,
30:37to take care of internally displaced people
30:40who are displaced because of
30:41as you were mentioning climate related issues,
30:44we have a responsibility that we have caused to some extent.
30:48So the internal displaced people is something
30:50that I'm thinking about in addition
30:52to international refugees across the border
30:56into another country.
30:57<v ->Thank you. So let's start with your second question first</v>
31:00and I completely agree.
31:02I think that all of the ethical arguments put forth
31:05with regard to bringing in migrants internationally
31:11across borders still applies for internal displacement
31:14so that we have an obligation to assist
31:17with compensating societies that are paying environmentally
31:24for the consequences of our consumption.
31:28I understand that there's an uphill road for this,
31:32but nevertheless from an ethical perspective,
31:36this is an obligation that I think arguably exists.
31:42And I think that
31:43the recent Global Youth Movement regarding advocacy
31:48for their human rights has had an impact on the way
31:52that policy makers have been responding to ethical claims
31:57so that they're seeing that there's a certain level
32:02of value based accountability
32:06that policy makers should have.
32:09And there have been reactions even from the private sector
32:12in trying to reduce consumption as a sort of pay it forward
32:17to future generations.
32:18And I think having a broader voice for global populations
32:22that are internally displaced and also that are having
32:26to leave their nation altogether,
32:28whether it be lost to sea level rise
32:31or other extreme weather events that are making
32:35their home environment uninhabitable.
32:40I think that there's a place
32:43for a broader ethical discussion that if
32:45that conversation is heard,
32:48could at least make some progress in the same way that we
32:51have seen advocacy for the rights of future generations.
32:56Because I think when we all hear this information
32:59is very clear that this is something that is wrong
33:02and there's an ethical obligation to do something.
33:07And so my hope is that further discussion of this
33:14at an international level,
33:16so these populations are less ignored,
33:18can help to advance that.
33:22Going back to your first question
33:24about recognizing individuals as refugees,
33:29absolutely, I think that the current thinking in this
33:35is to try to understand that at the time
33:38that our international agreement
33:40on refugee status concerned,
33:42we didn't have an awareness of climate change
33:46as human created source of displacement,
33:52although it is just as well as conflict
33:56in the discreet scenario.
33:58And so I think that this is something that
34:01we're seeing movement in thinking and I'm hoping
34:06that this can be better acknowledged and modernized
34:11because it is a reality of migration akin to any other form
34:18of human behavior, we need to do migration.
34:23But it is more complicated of course,
34:27because it's multinational and the source of the problem
34:31is more distant from the effect,
34:32but those who are fueling the effects or fueling the effects
34:35very rapidly and very acutely.
34:39And so the humanitarian ethic of responding to migrants,
34:44responding to refugees is really the same.
34:48And that's why I also think that some of the conversations
34:52that we have focusing on the language are stalling
34:59the actions that need to be taken right now regardless
35:03of the legal protections internationally.
35:06Because we also have refugee protections for populations
35:10in international law that according to the political will
35:14of certain environments,
35:16are not necessarily being fulfilled at a policy level.
35:21And so regardless of the legal environment and framework
35:27in which we're working,
35:28the same ethical duty applies
35:32to assisting these populations.
35:34So I'm hoping that the needle can be moved
35:37at a geopolitical level,
35:39but at the same time from an ethical perspective
35:41there's work to be done regardless of that.
35:46<v Instructor>Thank you so much.</v>
35:50<v ->See lots of hands, which is great.</v>
35:51I think Dr. Lason was next.
35:59<v Instructor>Hi Laura, thank you so much for this.</v>
36:01I think you made a really good case for the responsibility
36:04of mostly wealthy countries for taking in refugees
36:11because analyzing responsibility
36:14at the national level makes sense for a problem
36:17where the answer has to be worked out
36:21across national boundaries using national border policy
36:25and treaties that nations enter into and so on.
36:29But on the other hand,
36:30there's a list of about 100 companies that are responsible
36:35for more than 3/4 of all of the greenhouse gases
36:40in the atmosphere.
36:41And the vast majority of these countries exist now
36:45and existed back till about 1988.
36:49So you can actually say these firms
36:52that are there right now,
36:53a relatively small number of them are responsible
36:57for a huge amount of the burden.
37:01And I wonder if there aren't some kinds of problems
37:04like subsidizing displaced people internally
37:08to their countries that might be better analyzed
37:11at the firm level than at the nation state level.
37:17Does that make sense?
37:18<v ->Yeah. Thank you.</v>
37:19I think that's a great point because
37:21there are so many dynamics that go on in that conversation.
37:25There's sort of the passing the buck that can happen
37:29of companies transitioning that obligation
37:34toward governments which we've seen happen
37:36in so many scenarios, thinking of the financial crisis
37:39where those who created the problem
37:43as a result of their corporate behavior are shifting
37:48the clean up of that toward governments
37:52and that's certainly not fair.
37:56But there's also I think, the question of the role
37:59of governments then in corporate accountability.
38:02And this is something that we've seen not develop
38:08on this topic at all in the way that it could potentially
38:15with regard to having
38:16some sort of tax based system according
38:21to carbon production, carbon taxes that are then used
38:28to offset the human consequences of that production.
38:33There's a real missed opportunity I think there
38:38for using that resource.
38:41And then now we're seeing higher levels
38:44of internal corporate accountability as well,
38:46which I think is important.
38:48Certainly public health students go on to work sometimes
38:53within industry as corporate accountability monitors
39:00and industries are increasingly seeing
39:03that there is some economic personal benefit to be gained
39:09from having at least a green face.
39:13But I think at this point,
39:17we need to use all of the levers available to us
39:20and I think internal forms
39:22of corporate accountability are useful.
39:25They're certainly not sufficient
39:28because of the conflicting interest that those individuals
39:30have in speaking up.
39:33You can only get so far when you're paid by someone
39:36who you're also holding accountable.
39:39But that said, that's still a mechanism
39:42and an avenue through which companies stand to look better
39:46to the public by doing something about this issue.
39:50So that as you point out there are multiple levers and ways
39:54that these objectives could be accomplished.
39:59I think the next question was in the chat
40:04for the presentation.
40:05Have you done your research on the effects
40:07of climate migration on modern slavery?
40:11That's a great, great question.
40:14Not personally, but I think that this is an area
40:18that needs more research and we're also seeing
40:23the tragic reality that today in the world,
40:27there are more human slaves living than at any time
40:30in history and conditions of scarcity and demand for labor
40:39and resources are historically a pattern
40:44that we see continuing today in which the absence
40:48of having reliable sources of income force individuals
40:53who are desperate into scenarios that are putting them
40:59into slavery even more commonly most,
41:03or a large portion of slaves today are children and families
41:08who are unable to support themselves in the ways
41:11that they historically have been or more prone
41:14to sell their children into these contexts.
41:19So thank you.
41:20I really appreciate question because,
41:22I think there's so much
41:24from an ethical perspective that is not making it
41:28into our everyday political conversations
41:32about climate change and the human rights of all individuals
41:37and particularly those who are most vulnerable
41:41to exploitation in slavery need to be discussed more
41:45as a part of this and it certainly.
41:49I think, raises more attention of the severity
41:53of the challenge and the need for something clear
41:57to be done.
42:00The next question is, I don't see your full name, Dr. Rall.
42:08<v Instructor>Hi. Yes, Laura.</v>
42:09Thank you for the very important issues that you raised.
42:13I had two questions if I may.
42:16I think you brought this up yourself,
42:17most of the migrations that we've seen historically
42:20tend to happen into neighboring countries.
42:22So either from Sudan into Northern Africa,
42:25Bangladesh to India, and the same
42:26is expected from climate change as well.
42:30And I was just thinking that,
42:32are there other important mechanisms of operationalizing
42:36this obligation for address
42:39or rather than just taking in refugees into the countries?
42:43Like I can't imagine the number of people
42:46we're talking about.
42:47India expect millions from Bangladesh and millions
42:51in Africa to be moving that taking people in
42:54is perhaps less important than addressing development needs
42:57in those countries or helping neighboring countries
42:59that are expecting refugees to be able to deal
43:02with the crisis themselves.
43:03So that's one question, second question.
43:07In the case of climate versus war,
43:09whether harm is more direct.
43:11In the case of climate, arguably EU, the US, and China
43:16would want to of kind of arrangement where they share
43:21the obligation to take in refugees and so that
43:23they would want that to happen only under the grounds
43:25of some kind of international cooperation.
43:29Do you see the discussions moving in that direction?
43:31It's an easy way to pass the buck, as you said,
43:34but it is the case that the harm is much more distributed
43:36in the case of climate and how do we deal with that?
43:40Thanks. <v ->Thanks two excellent</v>
43:42really important and challenging questions.
43:45So I think you're absolutely right with regard
43:49to the second point as we've seen
43:53in our recent international climate agreements,
43:56our global major producers of greenhouse gases
44:01have been hesitant to participate and engage
44:05unless they know that their partners are also participating.
44:09So I think that in our future international meetings,
44:14we need to have further discussion of how all the agents
44:18are going to play some role in responsibility
44:24for addressing both of the points that you raised.
44:25One, welcoming individuals, but also on the other hand,
44:30helping nations that are having internal displacement
44:33to accommodate populations that are displaced.
44:39And of course, places like Bangladesh
44:41are going to be considerably losing land area
44:46to the rising sea levels as well.
44:47So we can anticipate pretty significant movement
44:52of populations that are going to need
44:55a multinational response.
44:59But I think you're absolutely right that there needs
45:01to be a geopolitical conversation in which
45:06there's a shared sense of responsibility being taken
45:11so that we're all doing our part just as we have
45:16with any moderately successful international agreement
45:21in the past, a sort of quid pro quo
45:24is a bit of an ethical understanding as well.
45:31<v Instructor>Thank you.</v> <v ->Thanks.</v>
45:39<v Instructor>Laura, I had one more point</v>
45:41that I wanted to raise.
45:42Which I think builds maybe on something that Nara Sumat
45:46was talking about, which is prevention.
45:50because as you know, when people migrate,
45:57it's very stressful, people lose their homes
46:00and their way of life.
46:01So even with the support of being taken in
46:04by another country or internally, that's insufficient
46:12in many ways.
46:14That it would be much better for people if they didn't have
46:16to migrate in the first place.
46:19So, I think that would involve support
46:25by the high emitting countries
46:29to the lower emitting countries whereas you pointed out
46:34the migration is mainly taking place
46:38for stronger climate change adaptation measures
46:41that would help keep people where they live
46:46and protecting them from effects of climate change.
46:53<v ->I completely agree.</v>
46:54I think there's such a broad literature
46:57on the mental health sequela of disaster response
47:02and particularly in scenarios where there's not
47:06as strong infrastructure for rebuilding
47:10and or accommodating right in scenarios
47:15where it's possible to accommodate.
47:18There are all sorts of cultural benefits
47:22of allowing individuals to remain intact social units.
47:28There's a huge mental and social disruption that occurs
47:33when families are separated and communities are split up
47:39and social networks are disrupted.
47:43We saw as a sort of parallel history here
47:46in the United States with a history
47:48of Native American populations being moved to reservations
47:52and then in the 1950s and 1960s,
47:55those reservations being incrementally reduced
47:59and those populations urbanized at the expense
48:03of social networks that were health sustaining
48:06and health promoting.
48:07And we've seen significant literature now linking
48:12that history to ongoing health problems.
48:18So that's just one scenario I think of a case where
48:22there's an argument to be made for supporting communities
48:27to thrive wherever possible,
48:31whenever possible as an approach as well.
48:34And then at the same time, adapting and being realistic
48:39about the movement needs of populations
48:44that are not going to be able to sustain themselves
48:49in each shifting environments.
48:55And the question is,
48:58what do you see as the role of contributions
49:00that academic community can make about climate refugees?
49:04So I think this is a great question to end on because
49:10there's been some discussion on is here
49:13at our own institution
49:16about accommodating displaced academics.
49:20And I think that there's a real responsibility,
49:26particularly for those of us who have the privilege
49:28of having these conversations and taking the time
49:32to research and think about the implications of the shifts
49:40that we're seeing at an international level,
49:45is a sort of virtue ethics.
49:48We talk about ethics at the political sphere
49:51and then we talk about ethics at an individual level.
49:55The classic or sense of virtue ethics,
49:58what are my individual character traits that I'm going
50:01to cultivate to live an ethically responsible life
50:06and living as members of an institution such as this that
50:11could really stand to benefit from
50:15and does benefit already from a very diverse
50:19and inclusive international faculty base.
50:23There's so much that we can learn from individuals who need
50:29a new place to be.
50:31And so I think that that's a great point that an institution
50:37has an ethical obligation to think about how
50:42we can be a part of a solution to the problem
50:46that we are also a part of a system that creates.
50:52We can't of course solve all of these problems
50:56as an institution, but we're not neutral.
50:58We don't exist in a vacuum,
51:02we're not separate from all of this discussion.
51:06We are a major employer and so we do have an opportunity
51:12to provide employment and interactions and engagement
51:19and collaborative opportunities with individuals
51:24who can really help to enrich our learning
51:29and also have some sort of compensation for the problems
51:37that societies such as the state community have created.
51:45<v Instructor>Well, thanks Laura</v>
51:46for an excellent presentation
51:50and for bringing up all of these important issues
51:53that we'll have to keep working on.
51:55<v ->Thank you, it's such a pleasure.</v>
51:58<v Instructor>Bye everyone.</v> <v ->Bye.</v>