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Child Study Center Grand Rounds 01.18.2022

March 21, 2022

Engaging with Racism and Xenophobia in Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy

ID
7584

Transcript

  • 00:00Great great hello everyone.
  • 00:03Welcome to grand rounds.
  • 00:05I'm so glad to be able to see
  • 00:07how many people are here.
  • 00:09I have the pleasure the good fortune
  • 00:12of introducing our speaker doctor
  • 00:14Tummala Narra before I get started,
  • 00:17Doctor O'Donnell wanted me to remind
  • 00:19everyone that next week we're going
  • 00:22to have doctor Jonathan Willmert
  • 00:24Harte from Kings College, London.
  • 00:27His talk is entitled modeling Normal
  • 00:29in the developing brain using MRI.
  • 00:32And this is based on his work from the
  • 00:35developing Human Connectome Project,
  • 00:38so that's for next week.
  • 00:39And that sounds pretty exciting,
  • 00:41so I'm going to talk a little
  • 00:45bit about Doctor Tummala Narra.
  • 00:47But first I wanted to say she's
  • 00:50going to be speaking as you know,
  • 00:52on understanding racism and xenophobia
  • 00:54through the lens of a psychoanalytic
  • 00:57psychodynamic perspective.
  • 00:58The Child Study Center has a long history of.
  • 01:03Understanding child, adolescent,
  • 01:05and adult development through
  • 01:07a psychoanalytic context.
  • 01:09Whether we're addressing
  • 01:11neurodevelopmental disorders, trauma,
  • 01:13other psychiatric impairment.
  • 01:15So I'm really glad we're going to have
  • 01:19a speaker who's going to address the
  • 01:22current challenges that we're having.
  • 01:27Through this lens through this lens
  • 01:29and just before this meeting started,
  • 01:31we were talking as a group about.
  • 01:35Commentary written in the Orange
  • 01:37Journal by Michael Shapiro.
  • 01:39It just came out,
  • 01:40and that commentary really emphasized
  • 01:42the need for more intense and
  • 01:45focused training in psychodynamic,
  • 01:47child and adolescent psychotherapy
  • 01:49for fellows in child psychiatry.
  • 01:52So I think that's a good way to
  • 01:55contextualize what we're talking about today.
  • 01:59So doctor molinara.
  • 02:00So she is a clinical psychologist,
  • 02:03and the director of Community
  • 02:05based education at the.
  • 02:06Danielson Institute and Research
  • 02:08which is at Boston University.
  • 02:11She's also research professor in
  • 02:13the Department of Psychological and
  • 02:15Brain Sciences at Boston University.
  • 02:17Most recently she was professor
  • 02:19of counseling,
  • 02:20developmental and educational psychology
  • 02:21and the director of training and
  • 02:24the doctoral program in counseling
  • 02:26psychology at Boston College.
  • 02:28Her research and scholarship
  • 02:30focused on immigration,
  • 02:32trauma,
  • 02:33race and culturally informed
  • 02:36psychoanalytic psychotherapy.
  • 02:38Her publications include over
  • 02:3990 peer reviewed articles and
  • 02:42books and chapters in books.
  • 02:44She's also in independent
  • 02:45practice and works primarily with
  • 02:47survivors of trauma from diverse
  • 02:50socio cultural backgrounds.
  • 02:52Doctor to Molinaro serves on that Home's
  • 02:54Commission on racial equality of the
  • 02:57American Psychoanalytic Association,
  • 02:59and on the Board of directors
  • 03:01of the American Psychological
  • 03:03Association Division 45 as a diversity
  • 03:06immigration member at large.
  • 03:08Division 45 is a society for
  • 03:10psychological study of culture,
  • 03:11ethnicity and race.
  • 03:13I'm doctor tomorrow serves as a
  • 03:15member at large on the Board of
  • 03:18directors in a PA Division 39.
  • 03:20The Society for Psychoanalysis
  • 03:23and Psychoanalytic psychology.
  • 03:25She's chair of that Appa Division
  • 03:2839 Multicultural concerns committee,
  • 03:30and she's a member of the AP,
  • 03:32a committee on ethnic minority affairs,
  • 03:36the AP,
  • 03:36a presidential Task force on
  • 03:38immigration and the AP a task.
  • 03:40Force on revising multicultural guidelines.
  • 03:43She's a fellow of the American
  • 03:46Psychological Association and have
  • 03:48a PA Divisions 3945 Doctor Tummala.
  • 03:50Narra is an associate editor of the
  • 03:52Asian American Journal of Psychology.
  • 03:55Associate editor of psychoanalytic
  • 03:57dialogues and senior psychotherapy.
  • 04:00Editor of the Journal of Humanistic
  • 04:02Psychology,
  • 04:03she serves on the editorial boards of
  • 04:05the AP Ejournals Psychoanalytic psychology.
  • 04:08And psychology of men and masculinities.
  • 04:11She's the author of psychoanalytic theory
  • 04:14and cultural competence and psychotherapy,
  • 04:16which is published in 2016.
  • 04:18And she's the editor of trauma
  • 04:21and racial minority immigrants.
  • 04:22Turmoil, uncertainty, and resistance.
  • 04:26Published in 2021.
  • 04:27Both of these volumes,
  • 04:30published by the American
  • 04:32Psychological Association.
  • 04:33I want to say that the most recent volume,
  • 04:37trauma and racial minority immigrants.
  • 04:39Turmoil, uncertainty,
  • 04:40and resistance is a fabulous volume.
  • 04:43I was fortunate enough to be able
  • 04:47to read several of the chapters,
  • 04:49and I think it ought to be required
  • 04:52reading for all our trainees.
  • 04:53So without further ado,
  • 04:55I'm going to introduce Doctor
  • 04:58tomorrow to you.
  • 05:01Thank you so much Kathy.
  • 05:02Can you hear me OK? Audio is good.
  • 05:05OK, thank you so much for your
  • 05:08introduction and for the invitation
  • 05:09to be with all of you today.
  • 05:11I really appreciate that.
  • 05:14I I know this topic of addressing racism
  • 05:17and xenophobia is a very broad topic.
  • 05:20It's a huge topic of course and cannot be,
  • 05:23you know, I can't do justice to this
  • 05:24topic in the the time that I have today,
  • 05:26of course, so I'm going to.
  • 05:29I'm going to focus on trying to give
  • 05:32it some focus and attention to the
  • 05:34experience of racial minority immigrants.
  • 05:37For for the sake of today's talk,
  • 05:40and I'm going to just begin with a
  • 05:42personal story, a personal anecdote,
  • 05:43and then move.
  • 05:44Into some psychoanalytic perspectives
  • 05:48on the issues of racism and xenophobia,
  • 05:51and then share with you some clinical
  • 05:54small clinical vignettes that I'm hoping
  • 05:56that will translate some of what I
  • 05:58say conceptually into practice and in
  • 06:01the psychotherapeutic relationship,
  • 06:02and in particular.
  • 06:05So with that, let me get started.
  • 06:08To the personal I arrived with my
  • 06:10family to the United States from
  • 06:12India when I was seven years old.
  • 06:14This was back in 1977 in the Bronx
  • 06:17in New York City.
  • 06:19I brought with me the burden
  • 06:21of colonialism caste, Hindu,
  • 06:23Muslim conflict, gender based violence,
  • 06:26sexism, and heterosexism.
  • 06:27I was born in Hyderabad, India.
  • 06:30A large multicultural city with a
  • 06:32long history of tensions between
  • 06:35Hindus and Muslims and among people
  • 06:37of diverging Hindu castes.
  • 06:39In subcaste as a Hindu in India,
  • 06:42I had belonged to a majority religious group.
  • 06:44Although I belonged to a Hindu subcaste
  • 06:47which was frequently victimized
  • 06:50by verbal harassment and physical
  • 06:52violence in particular region India.
  • 06:55And when I say violence against the
  • 06:59people who belonged in my subcaste,
  • 07:02are our families home was actually
  • 07:04burned down,
  • 07:05and that was set on fire and burned down.
  • 07:08So this was very significant
  • 07:10early in my life.
  • 07:11And and that the life of my family.
  • 07:15The experience that I'm describing,
  • 07:17the experience of being an
  • 07:19insider and an outsider,
  • 07:20were familiar to me even before
  • 07:22migrating to the United States.
  • 07:24The internalization of these events in
  • 07:27my early childhood was met with a new
  • 07:30set of experiences of discrimination,
  • 07:32xenophobia and racism in the United States.
  • 07:35I had not identified as an Indian
  • 07:37person or a person of color until
  • 07:40after migrating to the US in India.
  • 07:42I was a Hindu of a particular
  • 07:44subcaste that was our.
  • 07:46Family identity in the US.
  • 07:48We adopted different labels.
  • 07:50Asian American, South Asian,
  • 07:52Indian American, Person of color and so on.
  • 07:55In the US,
  • 07:56race takes a particular form.
  • 07:58When you're not categorized black
  • 08:00or white indigenous,
  • 08:02you are often seen as on the outside.
  • 08:05Yet I know that I'm not on the
  • 08:07outside of American race politics.
  • 08:10Indians in the US,
  • 08:11more broadly S Asians have
  • 08:13like every other cultural group
  • 08:15that is raised upon migration,
  • 08:17have a framework for understanding race.
  • 08:19More often than not,
  • 08:21these frameworks are less visible and more
  • 08:23likely to be dismissed by notions of.
  • 08:25Immigrants, as people who choose to
  • 08:27come to the US, and indeed immigration
  • 08:30often entails a choice, we know,
  • 08:33however, that immigration is certainly
  • 08:35not a choice for all people,
  • 08:37and certainly not a choice for children,
  • 08:39and it is also not a choice
  • 08:41to become racialized.
  • 08:42Many adults who immigrate to the US
  • 08:45are actually quite unaware of the deep
  • 08:48entrenchment of racial politics in the US,
  • 08:50and its impact on their lives and their
  • 08:53children and grandchildren's lives.
  • 08:55Moving on from that early immigration
  • 08:59story or pre migration story in
  • 09:02my early adolescence in the 1980s
  • 09:04I lived in northern New Jersey,
  • 09:06so we had moved from the Bronx
  • 09:08to a a white suburb,
  • 09:10an almost all white suburb
  • 09:12suburban northern New Jersey,
  • 09:14and this was an era that later
  • 09:16became known for the dot Busters.
  • 09:18I don't know if people are familiar
  • 09:20with who the dot Busters are.
  • 09:22Most people are not.
  • 09:23So let me just briefly tell
  • 09:25you who they were.
  • 09:26The dot Busters were a a street gang,
  • 09:29a white St gang that victimized
  • 09:31people of South Asian origin during
  • 09:33this era in the 1980s and into
  • 09:36the early 90s there was an influx
  • 09:39of South Asian immigrants in the
  • 09:42in New Jersey as well as northern
  • 09:45Pennsylvania in the Philadelphia region,
  • 09:47and so.
  • 09:48This was a gang that would sort of
  • 09:51go around and harass kids adults and
  • 09:54it was and from verbal harassment
  • 09:56all the way to murders.
  • 09:59So this was not something however that
  • 10:01was covered in the national press.
  • 10:04We did not see media coverage of these
  • 10:07these incidents and they were quite frequent.
  • 10:11And interestingly South Asian immigrants
  • 10:13who have arrived more recently to
  • 10:16the US are unaware of this history.
  • 10:19Of the dot Busters,
  • 10:20because the history has not been passed on
  • 10:23through any kind of formal systemic sense.
  • 10:28But to give you a sense of the impact
  • 10:30of the dot Busters on my family,
  • 10:32my brother and I often walked home
  • 10:34from our predominantly white school,
  • 10:36feeling anxious about whether or not
  • 10:38we would be followed and harassed
  • 10:40by white kids from a neighboring
  • 10:41town who would seek us out on
  • 10:43The Walking path from school.
  • 10:45Our home was vandalized with
  • 10:47racial slurs at into the snow
  • 10:49in our front yard in do go home.
  • 10:52It's painful events made it very
  • 10:53clear that being seen as different
  • 10:55meant that one is an outsider,
  • 10:57even though on the outside we were
  • 10:59seemingly acculturating to mainstream
  • 11:01culture and learning how to participate
  • 11:03from the inside at school and at work,
  • 11:05we spoke English fluently,
  • 11:07wore Western dress 8 Western food.
  • 11:10However,
  • 11:11these changes does not did
  • 11:12not secure insider status,
  • 11:14but instead created feelings of otherness
  • 11:17and hopelessness about belonging.
  • 11:18The problems of xenophobia and
  • 11:20racism as we know continue from
  • 11:22one generation to the next.
  • 11:24Well, you could say.
  • 11:25Well that was back then.
  • 11:26It was the 1980s and so on.
  • 11:28But of course I know,
  • 11:29and as so many others that these problems
  • 11:32persist and I have two sons now,
  • 11:35one who is a young adult
  • 11:37and adolescent son as well,
  • 11:39so knowing their experiences and
  • 11:41seeing the kinds of stereotypes
  • 11:43and discriminatory behavior that
  • 11:45they've had to grow up with
  • 11:48since they were in preschool,
  • 11:49we know that this is an
  • 11:52intergenerational problem.
  • 11:53So I'm sharing these personal
  • 11:54experiences I'm starting.
  • 11:55Off with this as a way of recognizing
  • 11:58explicitly that we each bring our own
  • 12:00experiences of racism and xenophobia
  • 12:02with us to the clinical encounter.
  • 12:04So today I want to explore
  • 12:06with you the dynamics of race
  • 12:08and racism in recent years,
  • 12:09with a particular focus on racial
  • 12:11minority immigrants and how these
  • 12:13dynamics impact psychotherapy from
  • 12:15a psychoanalytic perspective.
  • 12:17We're all aware that more explicit
  • 12:19forms of racism have heightened since
  • 12:22Trump's presidential campaign and in
  • 12:23the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic.
  • 12:26As racial minorities have been
  • 12:28targeted with harassment and
  • 12:29violence and victimized by the
  • 12:31virus as disproportionate rates,
  • 12:33and blamed for causing and
  • 12:35or spreading the virus.
  • 12:38To situate the context of
  • 12:39racial minority immigrants,
  • 12:40it's important to consider the growth
  • 12:43of immigrant populations in the US.
  • 12:45In 2017, there were about 44,
  • 12:47a little over 44 million immigrants
  • 12:49in the US,
  • 12:50so that's about close to 14%
  • 12:53of the population.
  • 12:55This number reflects an increase of over
  • 12:57four times as many immigrants since 1960,
  • 13:00and so we have a growing number of
  • 13:03first and second generation immigrants.
  • 13:05And just for terminology,
  • 13:07first generation.
  • 13:08I'm referring to those people
  • 13:10who arrive to the US as adults
  • 13:12in the second generation.
  • 13:14As US born children of immigrants
  • 13:17and the 1.5 would be people like me,
  • 13:19who are who arrived as children are
  • 13:22very early in adolescence since 2016,
  • 13:25there's been a rise in explicit
  • 13:27forms of racism.
  • 13:28In fact,
  • 13:29the term Trump effect has been used
  • 13:31by psychologists like Phil Zimbardo
  • 13:34to describe the notable increase in
  • 13:37racializing of phobic misogynistic.
  • 13:39Homophobic and transphobic bullying
  • 13:41in schools since the election
  • 13:43and the murder of George Floyd
  • 13:46has awakened many to the violence
  • 13:48and brutality directed against
  • 13:50black people and more broadly,
  • 13:52other people of color are the
  • 13:53bipac folks at the hands of police.
  • 13:56At the present time,
  • 13:57are out the pandemics outbreak
  • 13:58is rife with racist sentiment and
  • 14:01attacks against Chinese Americans and
  • 14:03those who perceive were perceived to
  • 14:05be Chinese or East Asian descent.
  • 14:07I want to just say a couple
  • 14:09things about Asian Americans,
  • 14:11since this is an area that I focus
  • 14:14pretty heavily on in my research
  • 14:17and and a group that is highly
  • 14:19invisible and visible at the same
  • 14:21time just to sort of elaborate
  • 14:23on this impact of racism,
  • 14:25particularly for youth.
  • 14:27Following the Atlanta Spa shootings.
  • 14:30If you recall this and back in March of 2021,
  • 14:33the Pew Research Center conducted a
  • 14:35survey in April just the following month.
  • 14:37The month following those shootings,
  • 14:40and they focused a survey on anti
  • 14:42Asian discrimination and what they
  • 14:44found was that 32% of Asian adults said
  • 14:47that they had feared someone might
  • 14:49threaten or physically attack them.
  • 14:51The vast majority of Asian adults like 81%,
  • 14:54also say violence against them is increasing.
  • 14:57Far surpassing the share of all US adults,
  • 14:59which is about 56% who say the same.
  • 15:03Another study with Chinese American
  • 15:05parents and kids between March 2020 and
  • 15:09May 2020 indicated that nearly half of
  • 15:12parents and children were targets of
  • 15:15online COVID related discrimination.
  • 15:17So as you all may know,
  • 15:20we Asian Americans constitute a
  • 15:22highly heterogeneous population with
  • 15:24regard to national origin, ethnicity,
  • 15:26and among many other things and.
  • 15:28And we also differ with regard
  • 15:30to physical markers of racial
  • 15:32categorization and our families carry
  • 15:34very unique histories with colonization.
  • 15:36Depending on our parents or
  • 15:39grandparents birth countries.
  • 15:40However, if we look at any kind of
  • 15:44psychological research or practice, really.
  • 15:46We are often homogenized.
  • 15:48We're sort of lumped together as
  • 15:50one category of Asian Americans,
  • 15:52and this pure this.
  • 15:54This sadly dismisses the distinct
  • 15:58experiences of culture, race,
  • 16:00among other aspects of social location,
  • 16:03and so socio cultural differences
  • 16:05tend to become routinely erased.
  • 16:07We're simply Asian or South Asian to
  • 16:10those outside of our communities.
  • 16:12We also hold a unique position in
  • 16:15broader racial hierarchy in the US,
  • 16:16where minoritized objects,
  • 16:18when it is convenient and we are also
  • 16:21viewed as privileged and model minorities.
  • 16:23Also,
  • 16:24when it's convenient either way,
  • 16:26our subjectivities are largely
  • 16:28diminished and ignored,
  • 16:29and even within our mental health
  • 16:31professions we are seen as racial minorities,
  • 16:34often when it suits other people.
  • 16:37So I want to share with you an
  • 16:38example of this invisibility.
  • 16:40Recently I began working with a
  • 16:42high school senior.
  • 16:43Who's an Asian American boy?
  • 16:45He's a young man now he's Chinese
  • 16:47American and I he he reached out to
  • 16:50me because he was interested in a
  • 16:52research project focused on raising
  • 16:54awareness of mental health concerns
  • 16:56among Asian American adolescents
  • 16:58in his school.
  • 16:59And so when I met him and I asked
  • 17:01him about his experience of being a
  • 17:04Chinese American boy in his school.
  • 17:06He told me that he didn't quite fit
  • 17:08into the stereotype of Asian boys.
  • 17:10He's a football player.
  • 17:12He loves academics.
  • 17:13And developed a program in his school
  • 17:15to support Asian kids deal with mental
  • 17:18health distress and then he proceeded
  • 17:20to tell me that the White and Black
  • 17:23teammates that he has been playing
  • 17:25football with for a very long time.
  • 17:27Now for a number of years
  • 17:29don't really understand him.
  • 17:30One of his white teammates in fact
  • 17:32told him I like Asians because you
  • 17:35guys don't complain about racism.
  • 17:38So you can imagine what that might
  • 17:40have felt like for this young man
  • 17:42to hear that I like you because
  • 17:44you don't complain about racism and
  • 17:47what that means about who he is.
  • 17:51My mentee was taken aback at this
  • 17:53moment and once again felt invisible.
  • 17:56One of the most striking things
  • 17:57to me about this incident is that
  • 17:59his teammate is fully aware of the
  • 18:01fact that Asians experience racism,
  • 18:04but made it clear to him that
  • 18:05he didn't want to hear about it.
  • 18:07And expected his friend his teammate,
  • 18:10to comply with his demand.
  • 18:12In contrast to this experience of
  • 18:15invisibility, Asian Americans can
  • 18:16become hyper visible when there's a
  • 18:19perceived threat to non Asians in the
  • 18:21US and other regions of the world.
  • 18:23For example, Asian American kids are
  • 18:24bullied based on their physical features,
  • 18:27the shape of their eyelids,
  • 18:28their skin color,
  • 18:29and in the aftermath of the Trump election,
  • 18:32we're routinely told that they would be
  • 18:34rounded up and sent back home by both
  • 18:37peers and teachers across American schools.
  • 18:39They're told that they're innately
  • 18:41smart and their peers randomly
  • 18:43asked them to do their homework,
  • 18:44particularly their math homework.
  • 18:46They're told that they're
  • 18:48terrorists and dangerous exotic,
  • 18:50smelly, asexual, and passive.
  • 18:52Think about all of the terms that I
  • 18:55just used, and the contradictions.
  • 18:59And the contradictory messages that
  • 19:01kids hear from a very very early age.
  • 19:06So I want to move to sharing some
  • 19:09perspectives from psychoanalysis on
  • 19:11the xenophobia and the racism that I
  • 19:14had just described and beyond that.
  • 19:16Of course, xenophobia manifests in
  • 19:19intrapsychic and interpersonal realms,
  • 19:21and as such psychoanalytic perspectives,
  • 19:23in my view, can elucidate understandings
  • 19:26of prejudice and aggression.
  • 19:28So analysts have written about the role
  • 19:30of early life experiences like separation
  • 19:33anxiety as fundamental to developing benign.
  • 19:36Prejudice as a way of differentiating
  • 19:39specific objects of attachment
  • 19:41like parents from other objects
  • 19:43with regard to the development of
  • 19:46malignant or harmful prejudice.
  • 19:48Henry parents underscored the role of
  • 19:51ambivalence towards objects of attachment,
  • 19:53implicating the use of defenses
  • 19:56like projection and denial.
  • 19:58The role of childhood trauma and neglect,
  • 20:00and the demands for children
  • 20:03to identify with their parents.
  • 20:05Relatedly,
  • 20:05Vamik Volkan emphasized the role of
  • 20:09parents transmitting traumatized self
  • 20:11and object images related to traumatic
  • 20:14dislocation into a child self representation,
  • 20:17and he described a process called depositing,
  • 20:20and he pointed out that depositing
  • 20:23is distinct from identification,
  • 20:25and that depositing involves an adult,
  • 20:27mostly unconsciously using a child to
  • 20:30become a reservoir for certain self and
  • 20:33other images belonging to that adult.
  • 20:36So what he's talking about here is the
  • 20:39ways in which parents can unconsciously
  • 20:42transmit prejudice beliefs to their children,
  • 20:45but not only sort of pass on beliefs,
  • 20:48but in fact believing the child
  • 20:51believing the same beliefs as the
  • 20:53parents actually is a contingency
  • 20:56for an attachment with that parent.
  • 20:58So it's not just about sort of
  • 21:01intergenerational transmission
  • 21:02of cognitive beliefs,
  • 21:03but what he's describing as
  • 21:05an affective component.
  • 21:06Where in fact the parent is making an
  • 21:10unconscious effective demand that you
  • 21:12must believe these things that I believe
  • 21:15in order to maintain an attachment to me.
  • 21:18And so this is where this is the
  • 21:21distinction between identification
  • 21:22and this idea of depositing.
  • 21:25It's important to consider that the
  • 21:28intergenerational transmission of traumatic
  • 21:29stress and prejudice can encompass a
  • 21:31wide range of defenses such as denial,
  • 21:34projection and rationalization.
  • 21:35For example,
  • 21:36a parent who's experienced by a child
  • 21:39as loving and attentive and who holds
  • 21:42negative attitudes towards immigrants,
  • 21:43may consciously or unconsciously
  • 21:45communicate these attitudes and expect
  • 21:47that the child carries similar negative
  • 21:50attitudes as a content as a condition
  • 21:52for maintaining a sense of connection.
  • 21:55So in this way.
  • 21:56A child becomes a container for hateful
  • 21:59attitudes that are often dissociated
  • 22:01from loving images of a parent.
  • 22:04Illini Cogan,
  • 22:05who is an Israeli analyst,
  • 22:07further noted that xenophobia has roots
  • 22:09in early childhood when an infant's
  • 22:12fear of strangers can mark the quality
  • 22:14of a relationship with a caregiver,
  • 22:16and specifically whether the infant develops.
  • 22:19A response of curiosity or that of fear.
  • 22:22And what Cogan does is refer to
  • 22:25a basic interpersonal survival
  • 22:26mechanism in infant development,
  • 22:28and she suggested that strangers represent
  • 22:31an attack on our inner equilibrium,
  • 22:34and that rather than tolerating
  • 22:36this T stabilization,
  • 22:37we hold the stranger responsible.
  • 22:40Therefore,
  • 22:40an inner conflict becomes externalized
  • 22:43and aggressed upon someone
  • 22:45who has less social,
  • 22:46political or economic power.
  • 22:48The stranger, then,
  • 22:49is seen as the one who is dirty, lazy,
  • 22:52stupid, exotic and violent, non human.
  • 22:56It's important to consider that
  • 22:58xenophobia and racism internalized
  • 23:00in childhood and adolescent are not
  • 23:03not only located in family dynamics
  • 23:06and parent child interactions,
  • 23:08but also in the schools,
  • 23:09neighborhoods, workplaces,
  • 23:11different communities, political groups,
  • 23:13and social media communities.
  • 23:16Uhm? Salman Akter,
  • 23:18who is a well known
  • 23:20analyst from Philadelphia,
  • 23:22noted that defenses underlying
  • 23:24prejudice become rigid as individuals
  • 23:26show little or no interest in
  • 23:28others who are different from them.
  • 23:30With regard to religion,
  • 23:32culture and race and socialize within
  • 23:35their own socio cultural groups and
  • 23:37what he described was something
  • 23:39called unmet lcisd xenophobia,
  • 23:41and this is sort of the consequence
  • 23:43of the defensive structure that he
  • 23:46talks about and what happens in.
  • 23:48Fundamentally, xenophobia is that it impact.
  • 23:50This impinges on our ability to
  • 23:52develop a sense of cooperation,
  • 23:54develop friendships with people
  • 23:56who seem like strangers to us.
  • 24:00Returning to Ilani Hogan for a moment,
  • 24:02Kogan presents a very interesting question.
  • 24:06Actually in her work.
  • 24:08And this is a question regarding
  • 24:10the inner life of majority
  • 24:11status individuals and groups.
  • 24:14So in the United States,
  • 24:15we think from a racial perspective
  • 24:18these are people who are
  • 24:20white or perceived as white.
  • 24:23She stated liberal thoughts and
  • 24:25international human rights laws
  • 24:26recognize the rights of minority groups
  • 24:29to maintain their cultural identity,
  • 24:31but assume that majorities have
  • 24:33neither a need for similar rights nor
  • 24:36a moral ground for defending them.
  • 24:38Cogan's point can be extended to the
  • 24:40invisibility of whiteness in the US,
  • 24:42and more specifically within
  • 24:44the clinical encounter.
  • 24:45For example,
  • 24:46when I've asked many of my white
  • 24:48patients about their ethnicity and
  • 24:49this is something I would do routinely
  • 24:52tell me about your background,
  • 24:54your describe your ethnic background,
  • 24:55your racial background.
  • 24:58Many of my white clients will say
  • 25:01that they don't have enough ethnicity,
  • 25:03but instead say I'm just white.
  • 25:06So the transference dynamics in
  • 25:08these moments with these patients
  • 25:10at times reflects their anger and
  • 25:13their envy about not having an ethnic
  • 25:15identity that is visible to others
  • 25:17and at other times reflects their
  • 25:19guilt and shame about having the
  • 25:22ability to choose whether or not
  • 25:24to think about ethnicity or race.
  • 25:27These dynamics can also indicate
  • 25:28A wish to wait,
  • 25:30a wish to maintain white privilege,
  • 25:33as there's an implicit message in
  • 25:35stating I'm just white that conveys
  • 25:37the feeling that their Indian American
  • 25:39therapist is the one that is different,
  • 25:41unusual,
  • 25:41and that their whiteness is the
  • 25:44standard reference point against which
  • 25:47might Indian background is perceived.
  • 25:49In all of these cases,
  • 25:51the clients wish to be seen is
  • 25:53diminished by a disavowal of
  • 25:55family migration and find,
  • 25:57and really the family migration history
  • 26:00and messages of white that standard,
  • 26:02privileged and oppressive.
  • 26:07I want to move to saying a few
  • 26:09things about the experiences
  • 26:11of racial minority immigrants.
  • 26:13Xenophobia and racism have profound
  • 26:15effects on how immigrant youth and adults
  • 26:18experience themselves in relation to
  • 26:20others and on their sense of belonging,
  • 26:23immigrants and their kids negotiate conflict,
  • 26:26identity, belonging and health
  • 26:28within the parameters of constraint
  • 26:31delineated by xenophobia and and racism.
  • 26:34In his essay, the Mental pain of
  • 26:37Minorities Salmen Dr pointed out that
  • 26:40minorities are not just people who
  • 26:43exist in smaller numbers but the but
  • 26:46rather they're they become colonized.
  • 26:48Subjects have less voice representations
  • 26:51and often fewer resources.
  • 26:53He suggests that being a minority
  • 26:55reflects cumulative trauma where the
  • 26:57protective and holding functions of the
  • 27:00society at large accrue overtime and put
  • 27:02a silent but palpable strain on the ego,
  • 27:05both at the individual and collective level.
  • 27:09An important paradox is put
  • 27:11forth in his perspective.
  • 27:13And this is the he asks.
  • 27:16A really interesting question.
  • 27:18Actually he poses the following question.
  • 27:20Pointing out that the majority group
  • 27:22tends to ignore the presence of the
  • 27:24minority group and at the at the same time
  • 27:27unconsciously desires the minority group,
  • 27:29which becomes a target for externalizing
  • 27:32paranoid and depressive anxieties.
  • 27:34So he poses the question if one
  • 27:36is not wanted but does exist,
  • 27:39then what is 1 to do with one's existence?
  • 27:42So let me repeat that.
  • 27:45If one is not wanted,
  • 27:46but does exist,
  • 27:47then what is 1 to do with one's existence?
  • 27:51It's often the case then,
  • 27:52that racial minority immigrants
  • 27:54experience anxiety,
  • 27:55confusion,
  • 27:55and despair related to not knowing how
  • 27:58to be fully seen and present and at the
  • 28:01same time invisible to the majority group.
  • 28:04One has to then potentially sacrifice
  • 28:06authenticity to be seen and accepted by
  • 28:09the majority group and secure safety.
  • 28:13I want to mention also in
  • 28:16the context of development,
  • 28:17a series of studies with immigrant children
  • 28:22that really support the psychoanalytic
  • 28:26literature that I've just presented.
  • 28:29And one of the sets of studies was
  • 28:31conducted by Corolla Suarez Orozco,
  • 28:34who is an amazing researcher who is now at
  • 28:37the University of Massachusetts in Boston,
  • 28:40and she LED a huge set of immigration
  • 28:44studies with children in elementary schools,
  • 28:48and this was back in the early 2000s.
  • 28:51And by the way, the the findings that I'll
  • 28:53share with you have been replicated with
  • 28:56children and adolescents since then into,
  • 28:58you know, as as.
  • 29:00Early as a couple years ago.
  • 29:03But one of the things that she did was
  • 29:05provide a sentence completion task.
  • 29:06So again from a psychoanalytic perspective,
  • 29:09using methodologies that sort of support,
  • 29:13you know, open-ended kinds of questioning
  • 29:16and responses on methodologies and research.
  • 29:19She provided us some sentences
  • 29:21to complete to these children.
  • 29:23They were third and 4th grade
  • 29:25children who are Mexican American,
  • 29:26Chinese, American,
  • 29:27and Haitian American and and the children
  • 29:31were given sentences like the following.
  • 29:33People in my family think that I am blank.
  • 29:37The second sentence would read.
  • 29:38Most Americans think that I am blank.
  • 29:41In the first,
  • 29:42in the in terms of the responses
  • 29:44to the first sentence,
  • 29:45people in my family think think
  • 29:47that I'm blank.
  • 29:48The kids would say things like people in
  • 29:50my family think that I'm funny people in
  • 29:53my family think that I'm smart people
  • 29:55in my family think that I'm silly.
  • 29:57So all the kinds of adjectives you might
  • 29:59find in an elementary school aged kid.
  • 30:01And then the second sentence,
  • 30:04most Americans think that I'm blank.
  • 30:07The kids would say things like
  • 30:09most Americans think that I smell.
  • 30:11Most Americans think that I am stupid.
  • 30:14Most Americans think that I am lazy.
  • 30:18The adjectives that were used by these
  • 30:20children exactly matched the type of
  • 30:23ethnic and racial stereotypes that
  • 30:24you might expect of Mexican Americans.
  • 30:27Haitian Americans and Chinese Americans.
  • 30:29And so.
  • 30:31What Corolla and her research did was
  • 30:35coined this phenomenon as social mirroring,
  • 30:39so she extended winnicott's idea of
  • 30:41mirroring in the caregiving context
  • 30:44between an infant and a caregiver
  • 30:46or a toddler and a caregiver into
  • 30:49a social context.
  • 30:50A broader social context outside
  • 30:52of the caregiving relationship.
  • 30:54And so this concept of social
  • 30:56mirroring has become incredibly
  • 30:58important for us to understand,
  • 31:00because in our typical intake
  • 31:02forms and in our professions,
  • 31:04we ask about the family context a great deal.
  • 31:06But very until very recently we have
  • 31:09not asked questions about social
  • 31:11contacts and how that's impacting
  • 31:14child development from an early age.
  • 31:17And now, of course,
  • 31:19what's happening on social media.
  • 31:21In addition to what may be happening at
  • 31:24school and other other physical locations
  • 31:27that children and adolescents interact in.
  • 31:30So I wanted to mention that as.
  • 31:34The research,
  • 31:35in conjunction with what we know
  • 31:38from the psychoanalytic literature,
  • 31:41is critical,
  • 31:42in my view,
  • 31:43to really understand the complexity
  • 31:45of what is actually happening,
  • 31:46what's being internalized from an early age
  • 31:49for children and adolescents. In terms of.
  • 31:53Negotiating socio cultural identity.
  • 31:55In this context that I'm describing,
  • 31:58there are a few things that I
  • 31:59just want to point out and I
  • 32:01want to share with you a case.
  • 32:04A case vignette.
  • 32:05Before I wrap up today.
  • 32:07So when we think about negotiating
  • 32:11socio cultural identity,
  • 32:12whether we're talking about childhood,
  • 32:14adolescence, or adulthood.
  • 32:17Adapting to new and divergent
  • 32:19cultural context can necessitate the
  • 32:21compartmentalization of experience,
  • 32:24or we call subjectivity in psychoanalysis
  • 32:27and also form dissociated self states.
  • 32:29There's a lack of sense of continuity
  • 32:32and immigrant experiences that typically
  • 32:35remains unconscious as efforts to meet
  • 32:37the demands of survival in the new
  • 32:40cultural context dominate everyday life.
  • 32:42In fact, for many immigrants,
  • 32:44securing economic stability
  • 32:46and family structure.
  • 32:48Attaining access to education,
  • 32:50navigating language.
  • 32:51These are some of the key
  • 32:53aspects of survival.
  • 32:54Immigrants also try to seek a better
  • 32:57future for their children in relation
  • 32:59to opportunities available in a country
  • 33:02in the compared to the country of origin.
  • 33:05So the psychological loss was inherent
  • 33:07to cultural change or perceived
  • 33:09as necessary sacrifices for full.
  • 33:11For meeting these goals.
  • 33:14Additionally,
  • 33:14the conflicts associated with
  • 33:16cultural shifts lie largely
  • 33:18an unconscious experience.
  • 33:20As immigrants forge on towards adapting
  • 33:22while at the same time retaining
  • 33:25heritage culture and minimizing
  • 33:27the pain of loss and separation.
  • 33:30Importantly,
  • 33:30the second later generations have
  • 33:34done experiences compared to
  • 33:36earlier generations of immigrants.
  • 33:38The second generation typically
  • 33:39seeks to both retain aspects
  • 33:41of their heritage culture and
  • 33:44mercin mainstream society.
  • 33:45Moving beyond the goal of this survival
  • 33:48that I just described growing up in
  • 33:50the US poses fundamental differences
  • 33:53in second generation racial minority
  • 33:55immigrants as they develop a sense
  • 33:57of identity within a context of race,
  • 33:59gender and sexuality that contrasts
  • 34:02with that of their parents.
  • 34:04Empirical studies in fact indicate
  • 34:07that stress related to racism while
  • 34:10experienced by immigrants of all generations,
  • 34:14have has a greater negative impact on
  • 34:182nd generation racial minority immigrants.
  • 34:20And in fact,
  • 34:22these findings parallel the
  • 34:23immigrant paradox,
  • 34:24which is a phenomenon that we
  • 34:26find in immigration research where
  • 34:28second generation racial minority
  • 34:30immigrant origin people have been
  • 34:32found to have worse mental health.
  • 34:34In the educational outcomes when
  • 34:37compared with the first generation.
  • 34:40So.
  • 34:41This is called the immigrant paradox,
  • 34:44of course, because you would
  • 34:45think this is counter intuitive,
  • 34:47but in you know,
  • 34:48and this is what immigrant parents assume
  • 34:50that their children are better off than them.
  • 34:53That in fact that they will be.
  • 34:55They will develop a better
  • 34:56sense of belonging.
  • 34:57They won't carry my accent,
  • 34:59they'll be able to communicate better.
  • 35:01They'll understand the
  • 35:02educational system better.
  • 35:03They will blend in better,
  • 35:05and that is the typical hope.
  • 35:06But we're we're finding and mental health
  • 35:09research is actually quite the opposite,
  • 35:11but the longer you stay in the US.
  • 35:13The worse your educational and
  • 35:16mental health outcomes become,
  • 35:18and this has been found across
  • 35:21different racial minority immigrant
  • 35:24samples, including Asian American
  • 35:28Latinx and Africa Caribbean
  • 35:32communities. And more recently,
  • 35:35with African immigrants as well.
  • 35:39The the studies you know this study is
  • 35:42composing the immigrant paradox findings.
  • 35:45They call attention to the divergent
  • 35:48developmental experiences of 1st and
  • 35:512nd generations and the dilemmas arising
  • 35:54from acculturation gaps as well.
  • 35:56If you are familiar with this
  • 35:59concept of acculturation gaps,
  • 36:00I'm not sure if this is something that.
  • 36:05You've heard of or?
  • 36:06This is something people
  • 36:07are mostly familiar with,
  • 36:08but this acculturation gaps,
  • 36:10typically referred to the idea that
  • 36:13the younger generations in an immigrant
  • 36:16home tend to have worldviews that match
  • 36:19more mainstream American attitude,
  • 36:22so they're more Americanized.
  • 36:23You know, sort of the the
  • 36:25term that's used typically,
  • 36:26and the older members of the family
  • 36:28tend to have more traditional
  • 36:30views that are oriented towards
  • 36:32a heritage culture, which.
  • 36:34Certainly captures one part
  • 36:37of this acculturation issue,
  • 36:39and what happens in psychotherapy is
  • 36:41that there's this assumption that,
  • 36:44OK, the older members and have these
  • 36:46traditional views and the kids want
  • 36:48to be more American and so that tends
  • 36:50to be the location of the conflict
  • 36:52that's typically explored in psychotherapy.
  • 36:55However,
  • 36:55one of one of the things.
  • 37:00That is complicating and is not it's.
  • 37:05It tends to be far less
  • 37:06visible in our literature,
  • 37:08which has huge implications
  • 37:09for psychotherapy practice.
  • 37:11Is the fact that acculturation
  • 37:13acculturative stress is a process
  • 37:15that happens outside the home,
  • 37:17and what happens is that the parents
  • 37:20might be experiencing racism or
  • 37:22culture distress of other types.
  • 37:25The children may be experiencing
  • 37:26racism and other types of
  • 37:28acculturative stress outside the home.
  • 37:31But this these are these processes
  • 37:34are occurring independent of the
  • 37:36family dynamics and the parents
  • 37:38and the children typically are not
  • 37:41talking about this with each other.
  • 37:43The kids typically don't want to
  • 37:45burden parents with their stress
  • 37:47and sometimes feel like their
  • 37:49parents would not understand anyway,
  • 37:51what they're going through and the
  • 37:54parents may not be sharing everything
  • 37:56that's happening to them because
  • 37:58their key goal may be to survive to.
  • 38:01To forge forward, keep going,
  • 38:04move on,
  • 38:04and so the disconnect happens in
  • 38:07psychotherapy when the therapist
  • 38:09assumes that the location of the
  • 38:11problem is solely between family members,
  • 38:14that this is a family issue.
  • 38:16This is an intergenerational
  • 38:19acculturation conflict.
  • 38:20Rather than locating the social
  • 38:22context as placing demands on each
  • 38:25of the family members who are trying
  • 38:28to acculturate in their own way.
  • 38:30So there is this gap in.
  • 38:31Understanding and communication
  • 38:33that develops,
  • 38:34but if we're not exploring social
  • 38:36context and the demands that
  • 38:38each member of a family face we,
  • 38:40we really don't have an understanding.
  • 38:42A complete understanding of what these
  • 38:45conflicts might be and the sources
  • 38:48of distress for each member of a family.
  • 38:51So this is.
  • 38:52This is why this research
  • 38:54on acculturation and or the
  • 38:56psychoanalytic conceptualizations of
  • 38:58of acculturation can be so critical.
  • 39:00Because a large part of this is unspoken,
  • 39:03unspoken,
  • 39:04and unconscious dynamics that
  • 39:06are typically not tapped into.
  • 39:11I think that I might have time to share.
  • 39:16One quick case with you,
  • 39:19before I just open this up for questions.
  • 39:23This is of a of a a a man that I have
  • 39:28worked with for in longer term psychotherapy
  • 39:31for a couple of years that I wanted to
  • 39:34share just to kind of illustrate some of
  • 39:38the complexity of navigating identity.
  • 39:40This is a a 43 year old Sikh,
  • 39:44Indian American man, heterosexual cisgender
  • 39:46man from a middle class background.
  • 39:49His name is Arjun.
  • 39:50I call him Arjun.
  • 39:51He emigrated from an urban area of
  • 39:54northern India to the US when he was three.
  • 39:58And when I saw him,
  • 39:59he had been coping with a depressed mood.
  • 40:03Related to a divorce, A met,
  • 40:05a separation and his divorce had just
  • 40:09become finalized and he has joint custody
  • 40:12of a 9 year old daughter at that time.
  • 40:15And he was very worried when
  • 40:16I met with him that he feels a
  • 40:18strong connection to his daughter.
  • 40:20He was very worried about the loss
  • 40:22of a sense of family stability
  • 40:25because of this divorce.
  • 40:26Arjun and his parents left their
  • 40:28extended family home in India,
  • 40:30moved to the US in the 1980s after
  • 40:32being sponsored by a relative and
  • 40:34they moved to a rural area of the
  • 40:37Midwest where his parents worked in
  • 40:39a hotel business managed by Arjun's,
  • 40:42relative and outside of this extended
  • 40:45family which included his uncle and aunt,
  • 40:48they had little access to an Indian or
  • 40:50Sikh community in about 2 years later,
  • 40:54Arjun's younger sister was born.
  • 40:57The the parents became more and more
  • 40:59involved in a community of Indian Americans.
  • 41:01Much and much of his social life
  • 41:04would center around this community.
  • 41:06Afterward.
  • 41:07At school,
  • 41:07he was quite isolated,
  • 41:09particularly during middle school
  • 41:10and high school,
  • 41:11where he felt different from the
  • 41:14predominantly white students and teachers.
  • 41:16And he was frequently bullied
  • 41:18and in two incidents was beaten
  • 41:20up by two different kids.
  • 41:21In both incidents he had
  • 41:23suffered physical injuries,
  • 41:24although the school really
  • 41:25didn't provide any protection.
  • 41:27For support no,
  • 41:28no repercussions for the boys
  • 41:30who had assaulted him either.
  • 41:32He also faced racial slurs such
  • 41:34as sand and word and ***** ****
  • 41:37throughout his adolescence.
  • 41:38He rarely told his parents
  • 41:39about these experiences.
  • 41:41In fact,
  • 41:42he didn't tell his parents about
  • 41:43being physically assaulted until
  • 41:45his mother noticed that he had been
  • 41:47covering his face with his hair.
  • 41:49And then when she learned about it,
  • 41:51he begged her not to say anything because
  • 41:54he didn't want face more ostracized.
  • 41:57After more opposition from his peers.
  • 42:02In addition to coping with
  • 42:04racial violence at school,
  • 42:05he endured significant stress related
  • 42:06to his parents experiences of racism,
  • 42:09in particular his father,
  • 42:10who had worn a pug areora turban during
  • 42:13his initial years of living in the US,
  • 42:15faced verbal harassment from white
  • 42:17people in their town on a regular basis,
  • 42:20his father decided to stop wearing
  • 42:22his thuggery and cut his hair
  • 42:24when Arjun was eight years old,
  • 42:26he described Arjun and our session with me,
  • 42:29described this moment as both a relief and
  • 42:32as one of the saddest times in his life.
  • 42:35His his father told him that he too
  • 42:37should not wear a bugri when he's older,
  • 42:39as this would invite trouble
  • 42:41quote invite trouble.
  • 42:43In about 2 years after this incident,
  • 42:45Arjun's family's home was vandalized
  • 42:48as well and again no, no help.
  • 42:51Sort of given to the family at this time.
  • 42:54I work with Sergeant.
  • 42:56For about three years and
  • 42:58when I first met Arjun,
  • 43:00he indicated that he wanted to
  • 43:02meet with an Indian American
  • 43:03therapist as he felt increasingly
  • 43:06disconnected from his Indian American
  • 43:08identity and his extended family.
  • 43:10So by meeting with me,
  • 43:11he thought that this he
  • 43:13could explore this further.
  • 43:15In his adolescence,
  • 43:16Arjun Cope with his experiences
  • 43:18of racial trauma,
  • 43:20primarily by withdrawing from others and
  • 43:22firing a variety of books he loved reading.
  • 43:26He excelled at school.
  • 43:27He went to college and and
  • 43:29while he was in college,
  • 43:31he at college he developed a close
  • 43:33group of South Asian American friends
  • 43:35and he fell in love with a young
  • 43:38woman who was Sikh American and
  • 43:40they dated for over three years.
  • 43:42Tragically she passed away due to a terminal.
  • 43:45Illness leaving her family
  • 43:47and argente devastated.
  • 43:49He told me in one session that he had
  • 43:51never gotten over this and I don't think
  • 43:53I ever will which to which I responded.
  • 43:55I don't know how one would ever get over,
  • 43:58and you know something like this,
  • 44:00but he cope with this loss by focusing
  • 44:04almost exclusively on his on his work,
  • 44:07and he visited his family occasionally,
  • 44:10but overtime became more
  • 44:12disconnected from them.
  • 44:14In his late 20s,
  • 44:15he met a co-worker whom he later
  • 44:17dated and eventually married.
  • 44:19His former wife is a white SIS woman
  • 44:22with Scottish and German ancestry,
  • 44:24and he described her as someone who
  • 44:26brought some vibrance in his life.
  • 44:28Although he cared deeply about her,
  • 44:29he felt as though something
  • 44:32was missing in the marriage.
  • 44:34In particular,
  • 44:34he would say it was almost like she didn't
  • 44:37want to talk about our differences.
  • 44:39You know, like,
  • 44:40let's just be colorblind.
  • 44:42I think the differences were
  • 44:44too much for her.
  • 44:45And yet having a biracial child.
  • 44:50Made it very complicated between the
  • 44:52two of them because he felt that she
  • 44:54was disinterested in his Indian and
  • 44:56Sikh heritage and he would sort of
  • 44:58take his daughter to the gurdwara
  • 45:00by himself and over the course of
  • 45:03time the gurdwara being a place of
  • 45:05worship over the course of time.
  • 45:07He felt as though.
  • 45:09His wife was disinterested in it and
  • 45:12so he became increasingly resentful.
  • 45:17In the course of psychotherapy,
  • 45:18he would share his sadness and
  • 45:20grief at the end of their marriage
  • 45:23and felt increasingly isolated,
  • 45:25and he would say that that he didn't
  • 45:29know that anybody could understand him.
  • 45:31And then in about the third
  • 45:33month of working together,
  • 45:34he said,
  • 45:34I don't know how much to say about
  • 45:36what I went through with my
  • 45:37girlfriend in college or with my wife.
  • 45:39It's hard to know who will really
  • 45:41understand and he would make comments
  • 45:43like you probably have Indian friends and
  • 45:46you probably connected to being Indian.
  • 45:48And and in these moments,
  • 45:50Sergeant expressed his experience
  • 45:52of not being understood,
  • 45:54and his fear that nobody,
  • 45:55including me would really know him fully,
  • 45:59and I would respond to him by saying,
  • 46:00I'm wondering if you think
  • 46:02if you think that I too,
  • 46:03I'm not interested in knowing how you
  • 46:05really feel about Indian and then he
  • 46:08would say sometimes I worry that you
  • 46:10might not see me as Indian enough.
  • 46:12I'm I'm giving you an example of
  • 46:15how these types of dynamics come up,
  • 46:17but for the sake of time I'll
  • 46:19wrap up and and leave it there,
  • 46:21but but I wanted to just share with
  • 46:23you an example just to give you a sense
  • 46:27of the complicated dynamics that.
  • 46:31I think so many first and second
  • 46:34generation folks really contend with
  • 46:36in the psychotherapeutic process,
  • 46:38so I'll wrap up with that.
  • 46:39I know we're short on time, so.
  • 46:43Hey so questions, comments. It did.
  • 46:50There was so much for your talk,
  • 46:54it was just absolutely wonderful.
  • 46:57You know, I was interested in
  • 46:59this concept of depositing,
  • 47:00and I wondered if you could elaborate
  • 47:02on that a little bit. I mean,
  • 47:04there's so much to say about this book,
  • 47:07recent case that you described,
  • 47:09and so much about psychotherapy.
  • 47:11But can you say a little bit more
  • 47:13about the concept of depositing I?
  • 47:15I was very interested in
  • 47:17understanding that, sure,
  • 47:18so this idea of depositing I can share
  • 47:21with you another brief example that
  • 47:23might illustrate that a little bit more,
  • 47:26and a case that I had.
  • 47:27Written about and it was published
  • 47:31last well actually now two years ago,
  • 47:34but this is of of someone who
  • 47:37is an Irish American man who was
  • 47:40sexually assaulted by a priest as
  • 47:43when he was a child and his parents
  • 47:46initially didn't believe him.
  • 47:48Then they did believe him and then
  • 47:50they sort of disconnected from the
  • 47:52church and they never spoke about
  • 47:54the abuse again and they the.
  • 47:57Parents held a very strong
  • 48:00negative views about immigrants,
  • 48:03racial minorities and and so I had seen
  • 48:09this particular patient during the
  • 48:11Trump election years and and during the
  • 48:14Trump years and after the election he.
  • 48:18We had a session and he was
  • 48:20very excited and he said I'm,
  • 48:23you know we won and he was thrilled.
  • 48:25And so I was really taken aback.
  • 48:28Up until this point in our work
  • 48:30we had really been working on US
  • 48:32trauma and processing his trauma.
  • 48:34And so in that moment,
  • 48:37there's this clear difference
  • 48:39between the two of us.
  • 48:42And over the course of time we've been
  • 48:45exploring his feelings about racial
  • 48:48minorities in general immigrants,
  • 48:49and he would sort of make me an exception.
  • 48:52You know, you worked hard for what you have,
  • 48:54but these other people.
  • 48:55They're the problem.
  • 48:56You know.
  • 48:57And increasingly,
  • 48:58we had more explicit conversations
  • 49:00about this.
  • 49:01But for him,
  • 49:03these these ideas that he was raised with.
  • 49:07Were really embedded in maintaining
  • 49:11an attachment to his parents,
  • 49:14which was already problematic.
  • 49:16He did not feel protected by the
  • 49:19same people who he was desperately
  • 49:21trying to hold onto in some way,
  • 49:24and so those negative kinds of feelings,
  • 49:27beliefs that he had about racist
  • 49:31beliefs really were entangled
  • 49:33were intertwined with this
  • 49:35attachment that he had with his.
  • 49:37Parents that were complicated.
  • 49:40And so.
  • 49:41To ask somebody to no longer
  • 49:43believe what they believe is
  • 49:45also asking them to detach from
  • 49:47people they love or want to try
  • 49:49to maintain some connection with.
  • 49:51And we all can relate to this
  • 49:53in some capacity or another,
  • 49:54but for him it was quite profound,
  • 49:56so this is an example of what Vamik
  • 49:58Volkan has described as depositing.
  • 50:03That's wonderful, great explanation.
  • 50:05It's helpful for me as a therapist to
  • 50:10think about that. In terms of the,
  • 50:13you know I haven't thought about it
  • 50:15in terms of attachment and that's
  • 50:17really important to think about.
  • 50:19Other comments and questions people have.
  • 50:25I may I was, you know,
  • 50:26I'm just thank you for that wonderful talk.
  • 50:28Very interesting perspective and I just
  • 50:31wondered they contacted the social
  • 50:33mirroring studies that you discussed.
  • 50:34At what age were those children
  • 50:37who were giving those responses?
  • 50:39Seems quite quite sad and tragic
  • 50:41really, but I just wonder how early we like
  • 50:43to see those kind of responses emerge.
  • 50:45So those studies were done with
  • 50:473rd and 4th grade students,
  • 50:50so we're talking like you know 789
  • 50:53year olds and and what we found
  • 50:56though other studies we we see this
  • 50:59kind of these kinds of reports
  • 51:01coming much earlier than that.
  • 51:03So those were just one set of studies
  • 51:05that we see that these kinds of attitudes
  • 51:07are internalized from the time that
  • 51:09children step outside their homes and
  • 51:11neighborhoods into a school setting.
  • 51:13So you know,
  • 51:14we're talking about preschool age kids.
  • 51:16Uhm? Yes, and and also just
  • 51:20learning awareness of differences,
  • 51:21even if they're not evaluative.
  • 51:23You know, I remember my son when he was
  • 51:26one of my kids who when he was three,
  • 51:29coming home and saying like I, you know,
  • 51:32I didn't know I was brown, you know.
  • 51:34And so this was something that you know
  • 51:37he recognized after he left our house.
  • 51:39And you know, and it was,
  • 51:42it became more of a blatant.
  • 51:44Recognition,
  • 51:44and you know when he was in
  • 51:47school and also you know,
  • 51:49since Corolla studies in my own
  • 51:52research the the types of comments
  • 51:55that kids were receiving were
  • 51:57not only in the context of peers,
  • 51:59they were also from the adults at school.
  • 52:02So I've done some studies with
  • 52:04adolescents that report that it's my
  • 52:07teacher who would say things to me.
  • 52:09That made me feel different,
  • 52:12less than, or assumed that I was
  • 52:14smart because I was Asian.
  • 52:15Or stupid because I'm Haitian,
  • 52:18you know.
  • 52:20So these are the types of things that we've
  • 52:22heard from kids in our studies as well.
  • 52:30Martin, do you have a question?
  • 52:34I know you do, I do. I do thank you.
  • 52:38First of all, doctor Tim Allen R.
  • 52:41Thank you so much.
  • 52:42This was a terrific presentation
  • 52:44and I give you extra kudos
  • 52:46for the gift of no PowerPoint.
  • 52:49Amazing, so that's the first
  • 52:52thing I have a question.
  • 52:53You cited a couple of times.
  • 52:57Salmen actor who is one of the most beautiful
  • 53:01writers and thinkers and psychodynamics and.
  • 53:05Hi, I read years ago I haven't been up on it,
  • 53:08but he speaks a lot about language
  • 53:11switches and what that does in therapy
  • 53:14in general and as a native Spanish
  • 53:17speaker now mostly English speaker.
  • 53:20But dealing with that I'm I'm
  • 53:22just curious in how that has
  • 53:24played out in your in your work.
  • 53:26And again,
  • 53:26thank you so much for a wonderful talk.
  • 53:28Thank you so much.
  • 53:30It's such a great point.
  • 53:31And yeah, someone's work is.
  • 53:36Incredible and they you know,
  • 53:38his work on language and so many others
  • 53:41who have thought about language and affect.
  • 53:44This is very important because
  • 53:47language sometimes you know it,
  • 53:50it can be invisible and it can be visible.
  • 53:52You know, through accents,
  • 53:54for example, that that makes it
  • 53:56most visible in psychotherapy,
  • 53:58but I've had sort of my experience has
  • 54:01been that unless we're actually asking
  • 54:04a patient very directly about their.
  • 54:06Language and for example what
  • 54:09language one thinks in and dreams in.
  • 54:13We don't have a good understanding of
  • 54:16the internal life of a person and how
  • 54:19language works in relation to how they
  • 54:21think and feel about themselves and others.
  • 54:24So for example,
  • 54:25for me my first language is not English.
  • 54:28I learned English in the United States,
  • 54:30but I sound like someone who
  • 54:32is a native English speaker.
  • 54:33Because of this accent that I have.
  • 54:36But.
  • 54:36In fact, my first language is Telugu,
  • 54:39which is in South Indian language and
  • 54:42I still dream and Telugu I my nicknames
  • 54:45for my kids are Telugu nicknames.
  • 54:48They're you know so affect evli when
  • 54:50I need to express certain things,
  • 54:53they're very much and still
  • 54:55in my first language.
  • 54:56I cannot translate that into English.
  • 54:58However,
  • 54:58for somebody with an accent,
  • 55:00they could be assumed one can
  • 55:02assume that they only want to
  • 55:03speak in that first language.
  • 55:05This is a highly individual.
  • 55:06Thing that is determined
  • 55:08by a whole set of factors,
  • 55:10including social context,
  • 55:12migration histories,
  • 55:13family dynamics that we don't tend
  • 55:15to pay enough attention to, you know?
  • 55:18So we ask the question,
  • 55:19do you want to speak in this
  • 55:20language or that language?
  • 55:21Do you need an interpreter?
  • 55:22But when we think about the dynamic
  • 55:25issues that are involved with language,
  • 55:27they're far more complex,
  • 55:29including trauma histories as well
  • 55:31that that language is also associated
  • 55:34often with traumatic events and.
  • 55:37Including childhood trauma
  • 55:39and interpersonal violence.
  • 55:44I see a question for from Christine Emons.
  • 55:49She's asking, I think,
  • 55:51how do you use information about
  • 55:54social context as well as family
  • 55:57dynamics in your work with clients?
  • 56:00And I mean, I think you've been
  • 56:02speaking to that to some degree,
  • 56:03but maybe elaborating on that a little bit.
  • 56:05Sure, one of the things that I've
  • 56:08been learning to do more and more
  • 56:11in my work is is to introduce it
  • 56:13very early in the work and not as
  • 56:15something that comes up later.
  • 56:17You know. So right in the intake
  • 56:19the first time I meet somebody,
  • 56:21or the first several times,
  • 56:23I'm getting to know somebody that I ask
  • 56:26questions about contacts right away,
  • 56:27because what that does is
  • 56:29communicate to them very directly.
  • 56:31But I think it's important and that it's
  • 56:33relevant that it's not something outside.
  • 56:35So for example, I will ask people
  • 56:37about whether they were raised with
  • 56:40a particular religious background,
  • 56:41or, you know,
  • 56:43tell me about what your school was like.
  • 56:46Tell me about your neighborhood,
  • 56:49tell me about your
  • 56:50family's migration history,
  • 56:51those types of questions that I want to
  • 56:54immediately bring the relevance of that
  • 56:56into our conversation, and our work.
  • 56:58And and also to not assume that
  • 57:01I know more than I do.
  • 57:03For example,
  • 57:03if somebody shares with me that
  • 57:05they are Indian American or I see
  • 57:07that they're Indian American,
  • 57:08that they have a very different
  • 57:10experience than me as an Indian American.
  • 57:13That in fact their interpretation
  • 57:15and their experience of being Indian
  • 57:17is very distinct individually and so
  • 57:20it's to recognize these differences but
  • 57:22also to see I think the individuality
  • 57:25and experience that heterogeneity of
  • 57:27experience right from the beginning.
  • 57:30So these are two quick things I could say
  • 57:33you know in response to that question.
  • 57:38Thank you, thank you Andreas.
  • 57:40Just made the comment that he he
  • 57:42curses in his native language because
  • 57:46ingrained so deeply so deeply.
  • 57:50And you know, I, I was thinking too.
  • 57:52We do have the experience.
  • 57:54Sometimes when family may not
  • 57:55want to use an interpreter, but.
  • 57:58Well, I I would I want to but the child is,
  • 58:03you know, the interpreter for the parent,
  • 58:05and that's not an optimal
  • 58:07situation to my mind.
  • 58:09But sometimes that's what we end up
  • 58:12with and you wonder what you actually
  • 58:16see the parents perspective through
  • 58:18the child lens as they translate,
  • 58:20and that makes a huge difference.
  • 58:22And of course is implication for the child.
  • 58:26You know, in terms of his or her
  • 58:29own psychological functioning as
  • 58:30being the interpreter as well, so.
  • 58:35Thank you so much.
  • 58:36This talk was just wonderful.
  • 58:38I I'm.
  • 58:40You gave us so many jumping off points in
  • 58:42terms of references and things that we,
  • 58:44as clinicians and researchers will
  • 58:46definitely want to school and more so.
  • 58:51There are no other questions I
  • 58:53think will wrap up and let me.
  • 58:56Is there anything else here in the
  • 58:59chat and just people are just saying
  • 59:01it's been so great it's been so great.
  • 59:03Thank you so much.
  • 59:04Doctor Tummala,
  • 59:05Narra and we hope to see you again.
  • 59:09Everybody having me and your
  • 59:11questions appreciate it.
  • 59:12Thank you very much. Take care.
  • 59:15Bye bye. Thank you. Bye bye.