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Richard Benson Scott Janis - Informal chat - funding options for fellows and junior faculty

October 27, 2021
  • 00:03I'm sorry Richard.
  • 00:04No, uh, you know we told people one o'clock.
  • 00:08It's possible that a couple people may
  • 00:10may join and I I know shadi's still on.
  • 00:13But uhm, Richard really wanted to
  • 00:15give you the floor to to discuss
  • 00:17and share anything that you'd like,
  • 00:19but also we'll see who stays on become,
  • 00:22you know, see if if people have
  • 00:25questions about, you.
  • 00:27Know just the process in various initiatives.
  • 00:30You know one thing.
  • 00:31I think that as we were planning a
  • 00:33conference and speaking with our
  • 00:34both our senior folks or chairs
  • 00:37and as well as our junior people,
  • 00:40the sense was,
  • 00:41I think in a very positive way that
  • 00:44there have been a number of initiatives
  • 00:47which NINDS and I have launched 4 early.
  • 00:50You know early career and just
  • 00:54done early career folks in general,
  • 00:55but also related to some of
  • 00:57the topics that you mentioned.
  • 00:59Or you know before in your.
  • 01:01Earlier talks soum.
  • 01:04You know so,
  • 01:04so we thought this would be good for
  • 01:06him to have some exchange about that.
  • 01:07You know even the no see that
  • 01:09you that you mentioned.
  • 01:11I know that we've had several
  • 01:13faculty that would be eligible
  • 01:14that have asked about it but
  • 01:16didn't know exactly how it worked.
  • 01:18So anyway,
  • 01:20OK, no, no, that's good.
  • 01:22Yeah, and we are still according
  • 01:24to my clock, 2 minutes early.
  • 01:27So factor Janice is also on.
  • 01:30He may have to drop off a little early but.
  • 01:34Yes, I have one of my.
  • 01:36Inage colleagues here that I.
  • 01:39Respect as well.
  • 01:42He and I have been working
  • 01:44together with a lot of K23.
  • 01:47Individuals come.
  • 01:49Some have been quite successful after
  • 01:53you know meeting with them too, so.
  • 01:57I'm glad that he could come.
  • 01:59Be here for at least part of the time.
  • 02:03Maybe if I come.
  • 02:04The trainees if you guys are
  • 02:07on an over early,
  • 02:08but if you.
  • 02:09Have any questions or want to
  • 02:11say hi or anything for you?
  • 02:15So turn on your video or.
  • 02:18Yeah, I I encourage everyone in
  • 02:19general and especially I think in
  • 02:21this smaller group of folks were
  • 02:23willing to turn on their video. I can.
  • 02:25It might be really helpful and you know,
  • 02:28is I think folks in our consortium now.
  • 02:30I certainly won't have no problem calling
  • 02:32people out in embarrassing them a little bit,
  • 02:36so I may forget a few,
  • 02:37but I I do see you know Adam to have none.
  • 02:42And Nils Petersen,
  • 02:43who are both K award ease and I see.
  • 02:48Others that either have caves under
  • 02:51review or putting them in or and yet
  • 02:54others that are involved in various
  • 02:56other fellowship training programs
  • 02:57and research programs as well.
  • 03:01May I just lead with a question about just
  • 03:05the definition of race? You know, the NIH
  • 03:10uses has always used the classification
  • 03:15of black, white, Hispanic.
  • 03:18It's it's. It's not necessarily
  • 03:22what people self identify as and
  • 03:24doesn't really account for a wider,
  • 03:28broader perspective about race.
  • 03:30I know it's a little unrelated,
  • 03:32but is there any internal discussion about?
  • 03:35Changing the way those
  • 03:38characteristics are reported.
  • 03:41No, it's a great question.
  • 03:42Karen, UM, so I've been working.
  • 03:47Actually, one of the leads is my
  • 03:50colleagues Dr Carolena Mendoza Pacino,
  • 03:52who's been updating the the Phoenix Toolkit,
  • 03:55which is a common data elements set up and
  • 03:59we have been looking at issues related to
  • 04:02social determinants of health and race,
  • 04:04ethnic categories and everything.
  • 04:05As I mentioned at the outset,
  • 04:07a lot of HR's.
  • 04:09They're very limited in terms of the kind of
  • 04:12information that you can collect around race,
  • 04:14ethnicity, and their issues.
  • 04:17Around you know a lot of
  • 04:19different categories,
  • 04:20including mixed race,
  • 04:21which is within one because now
  • 04:23we know that the number of people
  • 04:26who are defining as self defining,
  • 04:28which is the way that this should go.
  • 04:30'cause that's probably more
  • 04:32aligned with risk factors based
  • 04:34upon how people define themselves,
  • 04:36mixed race categories, and so
  • 04:38oftentimes that's difficult to collect.
  • 04:40In some of these databases.
  • 04:42And so yeah, I think it's something
  • 04:44that we've been talking about,
  • 04:46and it's something that has to be.
  • 04:47Updated and I am HD.
  • 04:49Uses the term of.
  • 04:52And I used to find health
  • 04:54disparities populations which has
  • 04:55gotten a lot of pushback,
  • 04:57so it's sort of pejorative health
  • 04:59disparities populations that term.
  • 05:01But then it has like blacks,
  • 05:03Hispanics, Native Americans,
  • 05:04and it goes into those categories.
  • 05:06But there are a lot of categories
  • 05:08that are sort of not mentioned,
  • 05:10and and it's not totally clear.
  • 05:14And so when you start talking
  • 05:15about mixed race and all of that,
  • 05:17and raised because it's so it,
  • 05:19it is the social construct.
  • 05:21And then when you start talking
  • 05:23about mixed race and all of that it,
  • 05:24it starts to fall apart and then when
  • 05:26we try to apply that to global 'cause
  • 05:28we look at the common data elements.
  • 05:30But when you go to a global setting you
  • 05:33know what does black mean in Africa.
  • 05:35You know in the African countries
  • 05:36you know it doesn't mean anything.
  • 05:38So I mean it's a purely sort of,
  • 05:40you know,
  • 05:41United States focused social construct.
  • 05:44It has a lot of problems,
  • 05:46but I think defining the problem
  • 05:47and tackling it just as you
  • 05:49mentioned is very important.
  • 05:50We do have to collect the data
  • 05:52because it is an important marker.
  • 05:54We can't sort of ignore it,
  • 05:55but it is an important marker
  • 05:58because it's so closely linked to
  • 06:00health outcomes and you know the
  • 06:01social determinants of health,
  • 06:03but it's very problematic.
  • 06:07From all I can go into talking about
  • 06:08for a long time it issue you're right.
  • 06:11So thank you know I appreciate it
  • 06:12and I don't want it to track from the
  • 06:14from the other early career folks,
  • 06:16but it is something that obviously is.
  • 06:19It seems like it needs some correction,
  • 06:22but yeah, yeah, I agree.
  • 06:26Uhm, so please if anyone has you
  • 06:29know any comments about things that
  • 06:31I talked about please jump out.
  • 06:34You know one thing that a lot of people
  • 06:37don't do it it's it's been published
  • 06:40and we talked about this at the NIH.
  • 06:42I'll that.
  • 06:44Researchers that actually contact
  • 06:46their program.
  • 06:47Officials at the NIH and they interact
  • 06:49with them a lot that they actually do
  • 06:52better and review so we can actually
  • 06:54be very helpful at the NIH in terms of
  • 06:56interacting with us and talking to us.
  • 06:58And so, as I mentioned at the outset,
  • 07:00some of you may have missed it.
  • 07:01That Scott Janice,
  • 07:02who's on here?
  • 07:03He's over the stroke program.
  • 07:05He and I we've met with quite
  • 07:07a few we we both have different
  • 07:09styles and different ways.
  • 07:10Sort of attacking this,
  • 07:12but we've met with several K 23.
  • 07:14Uhm candidates and we sort of go
  • 07:17through and we reach or specific games.
  • 07:20We offer comments about the process and
  • 07:22everything and so that's part of what we do.
  • 07:25But people sometimes don't contact us.
  • 07:29We are very busy,
  • 07:29but that's part of what we do.
  • 07:31We can schedule time to do this and you know,
  • 07:35I think we actually like it.
  • 07:36You know it's a lot of interesting work
  • 07:38that we get to read about and to hear.
  • 07:40You know how people are thinking about
  • 07:42things and so we could really offer a lot.
  • 07:45So I guess my first point of advice
  • 07:48is to contact us at the at the NIH
  • 07:51and Inds if you're considering
  • 07:54submitting to us what we normally do,
  • 07:57we have different areas of expertise.
  • 07:59If it's something my expertise is
  • 08:01through vascular disease and stroke,
  • 08:03and obviously you know HealthEquity
  • 08:05health disparities in global health.
  • 08:06But if it's another area,
  • 08:08then we'll bring on.
  • 08:10I can get someone from the NIDS
  • 08:14who has an expertise in, let's say.
  • 08:16If it's Ms or something in the 80 RT space,
  • 08:19or epilepsy or or something else I
  • 08:21can pull on my colleagues and we
  • 08:23normally will have these joint meetings
  • 08:25and go through and discuss your your
  • 08:28specific games and your application
  • 08:30and the other parts of review.
  • 08:33So that's that's the first point
  • 08:35that I'd say come.
  • 08:38Thank
  • 08:39you Richard. You know that's such
  • 08:41a generous and important offer,
  • 08:42because if I was writing AK,
  • 08:44I can't imagine having better input
  • 08:47and reviewers from somebody at NINDS
  • 08:49who sort of boots on the ground.
  • 08:51You have access to the top people you've
  • 08:54written and reviewed hundreds of grants.
  • 08:56I mean to have your expertise and and
  • 08:59review eyes would just be invaluable.
  • 09:02So thank you for making that offer.
  • 09:03That's great.
  • 09:05Right? Yeah wait, I might add just so that
  • 09:09folks understand with training grants.
  • 09:11Training grants are
  • 09:12specific to the institutes.
  • 09:15So even though that the the mechanisms
  • 09:17are used broadly across NIH training
  • 09:19in cancer or heart disease is very
  • 09:22different than training in neurology.
  • 09:24So when we have study
  • 09:26sections that review these,
  • 09:27these are Institute review study sections.
  • 09:29These are not CSR study sections,
  • 09:32so they are run effectively in House,
  • 09:34and that means that a culture gets developed.
  • 09:37Within the review,
  • 09:37and that's really what
  • 09:38Richard kind of speaking to.
  • 09:39There's a lot of nuances with
  • 09:42training programs that neither
  • 09:43Richard nor I are like up to speed on,
  • 09:45and that's why we have a training office.
  • 09:47We have another resource to help us think
  • 09:49through some of those policy things too,
  • 09:51but it's not like writing a narrow one.
  • 09:53It's a very different type of approach,
  • 09:55but I think from that standpoint Mark,
  • 09:58that's kind of what you're getting too.
  • 10:00Is that you know,
  • 10:01we hear and we listen to sort of what
  • 10:04the culture is within those reviews,
  • 10:06and that's really what.
  • 10:07We're trying to respond to we can't
  • 10:10write somebody's grant come off,
  • 10:12and we can offer opinions or
  • 10:14suggestions which you know, I think,
  • 10:17are important for folks just to think about,
  • 10:20you know, and not because we make them,
  • 10:21but more because if somebody
  • 10:23is thinking about the problem,
  • 10:24it's worth rethinking about it,
  • 10:26because perhaps you're just not
  • 10:28articulating it clear enough yet that
  • 10:30she would have to get to a level of a,
  • 10:32you know, grant application.
  • 10:33We can't solve.
  • 10:34Those problems were not even allowed
  • 10:36to write your grants, because.
  • 10:37You know that that goes negatively interview,
  • 10:39but I think that's the whole process.
  • 10:41This just having the conversations,
  • 10:43not just with folks like us,
  • 10:45but also you know with with the
  • 10:47mentors and and perhaps even other
  • 10:50fellows who have received K23,
  • 10:52they've gone through the experience
  • 10:54and they have a perspective on
  • 10:55it that you know gives them some
  • 10:57insight on how to be successful so.
  • 11:01Thank you, yeah, more
  • 11:03valuable insights. Thank you.
  • 11:08So please just jump out and.
  • 11:13Ask any questions about anything
  • 11:14I talked about earlier or anything
  • 11:17on your mind or the other piece.
  • 11:19Is that if you have an application and it's
  • 11:23not one that's appropriate for any ideas,
  • 11:25we can also be helpful at referring you to
  • 11:28someone at one of the other eye sees as well.
  • 11:31You do want to open up your possibility of
  • 11:34funding by looking at other institutes.
  • 11:37If your research area falls in another
  • 11:39category, but since you all are,
  • 11:42since this is stroke net, I'm short.
  • 11:43Broken so it should be related to us.
  • 11:47Great, I I know there are a bunch of Ali
  • 11:50and Mike and some of our stroke net fellows,
  • 11:53Rachel and others so it's great to
  • 11:55see a Nishant. I mean a bunch of folks
  • 11:57here so it's so fair to speak up.
  • 11:59I might pair it to Richard and Scott.
  • 12:02A few questions that I know I've heard from
  • 12:05some of you recently won and Scott, you may.
  • 12:09I think you've touched on this recently.
  • 12:11You know, as people are transitioning
  • 12:13from K20 threes and stroke net fellows.
  • 12:17You know they've seen,
  • 12:18I think in recent memory,
  • 12:19we've all seen large phase three
  • 12:21trials at stroke net which you
  • 12:23know certain type of trial,
  • 12:25and I think sometimes may
  • 12:27feel intimidating or but,
  • 12:28but maybe you can also comment a little
  • 12:31bit about how the network is thinking about
  • 12:34phase one or smaller phase two trials,
  • 12:37minimal numbers of centers because I
  • 12:39think there are a number of people here
  • 12:41that I I know are working on programs
  • 12:44where that you know that may be relevant.
  • 12:47Yeah, uhm, so I'm you know
  • 12:49I'm very favorable I.
  • 12:51I think one of the goals or stroke
  • 12:55net that we're still working on
  • 12:57was there was a idea of continuity
  • 13:00of development that you know that
  • 13:02we can evolve ideas through some
  • 13:05of the earlier work and then have
  • 13:08that sort of memory embedded
  • 13:10within the system that would help
  • 13:12rapidly advance it to a larger,
  • 13:14definitive study if that's
  • 13:16where the science went.
  • 13:17You know, and I think you know
  • 13:19there's there's questions.
  • 13:19Naturally,
  • 13:20when we launched in that were already there,
  • 13:22which is why we had some of the
  • 13:24large Bay Street trials.
  • 13:25I think there's some natural
  • 13:27questions and prevention that
  • 13:28have led to phase three trials.
  • 13:30You know?
  • 13:30Truthfully,
  • 13:31it's a little easier to design A
  • 13:33phase three trial than it is to
  • 13:35design A phase one or phase two trial,
  • 13:37you know,
  • 13:37but I don't think that's a reason
  • 13:38to kind of steer away from it.
  • 13:40But, you know, I,
  • 13:41I would just sort of echo that
  • 13:43we're looking at a lot of ways
  • 13:45of sort of advancing the science.
  • 13:47The biology,
  • 13:48UM and not just kind of going after.
  • 13:52You know,
  • 13:53maybe necessarily the big ticket items.
  • 13:54Maybe it's going after what could
  • 13:57actually change the course of
  • 13:58the disease would be important
  • 14:00to the patients you know.
  • 14:01I I,
  • 14:02I wanted to build on something Richard said,
  • 14:04just as a as a general comment
  • 14:06'cause we get this sort of all
  • 14:07the time when people reach out
  • 14:09they'll say is this something
  • 14:10and Inds is interested in.
  • 14:12This is something that you will find
  • 14:14you know well the truth of it is
  • 14:16is that you know we we have that we get.
  • 14:18The money to be able to administer it,
  • 14:20but we're really listening to
  • 14:22you to tell us whether or not
  • 14:24something is important to be done.
  • 14:25So really, the expertise in the field, right?
  • 14:28And the expertise and the
  • 14:29knowledge of where we need to go,
  • 14:31and so the reviewers are
  • 14:33not government employees.
  • 14:35The reviewers are picked from the
  • 14:37various academic institutions and
  • 14:39in responding to what they see as
  • 14:41the priorities and needs within the field.
  • 14:44So I think those two kind of go
  • 14:45hand in hand because we're really
  • 14:47trying to follow the thread.
  • 14:49NIH has a unique position because
  • 14:50we can do things that companies
  • 14:53might not necessarily be interested
  • 14:55in because it's further down
  • 14:57the stream of development.
  • 14:58We're really looking to bend the science
  • 15:00pathway and try to move forward,
  • 15:02so just just sort of thoughts
  • 15:04to keep in mind.
  • 15:05But yeah, absolutely,
  • 15:06I think you know if it doesn't
  • 15:08fit stroke that we do have many
  • 15:10different pathways that would be
  • 15:12preliminary to doing a trial that
  • 15:14we can also open up those doors.
  • 15:16'cause again we sort of see this
  • 15:17as a pure developmental.
  • 15:19Hopefully all the way from the
  • 15:20basic science up to the translation
  • 15:22and eventually to the trials.
  • 15:27Thanks and I I just put my
  • 15:29email address in the chat.
  • 15:30So if you you know think of something
  • 15:33that you want to email and ask
  • 15:35me about later on, but it's got.
  • 15:37That's that's a great point that
  • 15:39he just made that you know you
  • 15:41are in the field and the experts
  • 15:43if you think of a great idea
  • 15:45that you would like to develop,
  • 15:47then you know that's your idea.
  • 15:49And then we can sort of let you know,
  • 15:50sort of. Uhm, you know where it fits?
  • 15:54Or you can talk to us and say,
  • 15:55hey, this is an important problem.
  • 15:56It's something we need to focus
  • 15:58on and go from there.
  • 15:59That that's how some of the
  • 16:01best ideas sort of come out.
  • 16:02It's sort of that bedside back to the bench.
  • 16:07Sometimes
  • 16:07we can help sort of with the competing space.
  • 16:10You know that's one of the downsides
  • 16:12with the federal funding is that we only
  • 16:14have so much in our pot, which means,
  • 16:16and we have to distribute it.
  • 16:18We have a very large you know,
  • 16:20portfolio of diseases that are covered
  • 16:22in neurology and we're responsible
  • 16:23pretty much for all of them.
  • 16:25So it doesn't mean that we have unlimited
  • 16:28opportunities to overlap things.
  • 16:30But sometimes where we can,
  • 16:31we can sort of spot is sort of
  • 16:33where that things are moving,
  • 16:35and maybe try and help.
  • 16:37Push that into a,
  • 16:38you know into its own model
  • 16:39niche that would be successful.
  • 16:43Richard and Scott, something that I've
  • 16:45noticed across the research portfolio,
  • 16:47is that more and more studies are including
  • 16:50biomarkers either in the main study or
  • 16:52in a subsequent study or sub study,
  • 16:55and you know, I'm just interested
  • 16:58in your perspective because.
  • 16:59Again, you see the whole portfolio,
  • 17:01not just stroke, but cancer.
  • 17:04Ms other things.
  • 17:07What has been the track record of these
  • 17:10biomarkers across the research enterprise?
  • 17:12Are they? Do they end up being helpful
  • 17:15in 90% of the cases or 5% of the cases,
  • 17:18or does it vary just so much by
  • 17:21disease and in terms of being helpful,
  • 17:23are they helpful for prognosis,
  • 17:25diagnosis, triage therapies?
  • 17:27Because certainly they're very popular,
  • 17:30but so far I haven't heard the
  • 17:32end result of the impact that
  • 17:33they may or may not have had.
  • 17:38Yeah, excuse me,
  • 17:39I think it's a great question.
  • 17:42We actually. I think it depends.
  • 17:45I I know in the ADR D space that there are
  • 17:49a lot of biomarkers out there because of,
  • 17:52you know, early detection of of
  • 17:54the Alzheimer's or various types
  • 17:57of dementia as well as biomarkers.
  • 17:59You know Mr Imaging and all of that,
  • 18:02and so there may be certain areas
  • 18:04where a biomarker is helpful.
  • 18:06It can be helpful and less invasive.
  • 18:08Helpful, less invasive way of diagnosing
  • 18:12or a way of picking up sort of early
  • 18:15disease or preclinical disease.
  • 18:18And so there are certain spaces where
  • 18:20the biomarker field is very important.
  • 18:22The other thing is good for translation.
  • 18:24If there's something that's happening
  • 18:26in the preclinical space or something
  • 18:28that we need to take from clinical
  • 18:31space and go back and look at
  • 18:32it in the preclinical space,
  • 18:34that may be important from
  • 18:35that standpoint as well.
  • 18:37So I I think it sort of depends.
  • 18:39You know,
  • 18:40we sort of look at things and if we
  • 18:44can tie it to the preclinical sort of
  • 18:47biomarker space and the disease space,
  • 18:50then you know we're getting
  • 18:52the basic scientists as well as
  • 18:54the clinical scientists.
  • 18:55And I think the NIH wants to
  • 18:57fund both types of research.
  • 18:59But also if there's a good clinical
  • 19:02intervention that you have that you
  • 19:04know doesn't have a biomarker doesn't
  • 19:06mean that that's not important or not.
  • 19:09One other thing I want to mention,
  • 19:10that sort of Scott to that point was
  • 19:14solicited versus unsolicited applications,
  • 19:16and sort of a point that Scott brought
  • 19:19up that we do have solicitations.
  • 19:22We know that a lot of applications
  • 19:24that come in,
  • 19:25there's just sort of independent,
  • 19:27you know,
  • 19:28research that that the investigator
  • 19:30suggests and submits for funding.
  • 19:33But we do know that a lot of research is
  • 19:36sparked by solicitation in certain areas,
  • 19:38and so we are.
  • 19:39Thinking about that and we do think
  • 19:41uniquely so it goes to your point mark,
  • 19:45we do have solicitations that we're looking,
  • 19:47and we may ask specifically that we're
  • 19:50looking for biomarkers in a particular area,
  • 19:52or we're looking for something
  • 19:54where something can be translated.
  • 19:56From preclinical to clinical,
  • 19:58we may ask specifically and we do
  • 20:00those solicitations in order to
  • 20:02spark research in a particular area.
  • 20:05So we do expect to have more
  • 20:07solicitations in the HealthEquity space,
  • 20:11and you know other spaces as well.
  • 20:14Just wanted to put that in there
  • 20:16too that there are certain things
  • 20:17so the other benefit of speaking
  • 20:18to us ahead of time is that there
  • 20:20may be some solicitations out there
  • 20:22that you may not be familiar of,
  • 20:24and there may be a benefit of applying to.
  • 20:29Solicitations so.
  • 20:33Martin aren't
  • 20:34your question just a tad bit you know I?
  • 20:36I don't know if biomarkers is the
  • 20:39sort of new tonight buzzword, I mean.
  • 20:42Obviously there's a lot of research that
  • 20:44covers all the areas that you mentioned
  • 20:46from discovery to progress station.
  • 20:48All that kind of stuff how we might predict
  • 20:50whether somebody develops in the disease,
  • 20:51that kind of thing.
  • 20:53But I think you know from our interests
  • 20:56where we've sort of focused on,
  • 20:58I think because technology has advanced
  • 21:00as much as it has and we have different.
  • 21:03Opportunities as well.
  • 21:03I think you see a lot more of these
  • 21:06kind of mirroring together like you,
  • 21:08Walter cautious,
  • 21:09has you know he has a distinct interest
  • 21:12in our sort of middle phase trials and
  • 21:15really trying to bring the treatment
  • 21:18closer to the biological target.
  • 21:20You know as a way of really sort of
  • 21:22having some basis for deciding whether or
  • 21:24not we should go on to do one of these
  • 21:27expensive large clinical type studies.
  • 21:29And that's what actually you know,
  • 21:32created neuro next.
  • 21:33For the broader neurology space,
  • 21:35and it's a lot of things
  • 21:37that we sometimes look for.
  • 21:38So when we when I think of you know where the
  • 21:40where the opportunities are for biomarkers,
  • 21:42I think there are multifaceted some
  • 21:44of its to learn about the disease.
  • 21:47Some of it you know is to help
  • 21:49potentially build in so that we
  • 21:50could use it more effectively in
  • 21:52some of these early phase trials,
  • 21:54and some of it might just be
  • 21:55in that discovery space.
  • 21:56And that's what Richard is talking about.
  • 21:57There's there's a.
  • 21:58There's a vast interest across
  • 22:00many different diseases,
  • 22:01not just stroke with, you know.
  • 22:03How we can sort of capitalize on?
  • 22:06You know what we now know in
  • 22:08the technologies that we have,
  • 22:09and how we might be able to combine
  • 22:11that for purposes of really
  • 22:12understanding the you know the
  • 22:14biology and the brain a little bit
  • 22:16better in that just looking to see
  • 22:18whether that's something safe to use.
  • 22:21Excellent thank you for addressing
  • 22:23my question, really appreciate it.
  • 22:28That highlights as well the fact
  • 22:29that like and I mentioned Scott and I
  • 22:31particular 'cause we work on these a lot.
  • 22:33We actually have different
  • 22:34ways of looking at things.
  • 22:36I value his opinion.
  • 22:37A lot of this 'cause we we will
  • 22:38attack a problem different ways and
  • 22:40you will hear things differently.
  • 22:42So that's the the benefit of
  • 22:44calling you here and and having
  • 22:46this discussion in different ways.
  • 22:48Sort of thinking about research question
  • 22:50and I think it's very important,
  • 22:52and so that's something we can offer.
  • 22:57Richard is got.
  • 22:58It's it's Lawrence dancing.
  • 22:59Hey, thanks so much for
  • 23:01for talking with everyone
  • 23:02and then I'll have it.
  • 23:03Something that Kevin said earlier.
  • 23:05Which is we have a range of people on my
  • 23:07call from service fellows and stroking
  • 23:09it fellows people who are writing
  • 23:12caves and and have kids and are
  • 23:14transitioning off of K
  • 23:16since you larger grants.
  • 23:17And I thought maybe it would
  • 23:19be helpful if you could just
  • 23:21comment a little bit on that.
  • 23:22And I NDS initiatives for
  • 23:25those sort of early career.
  • 23:28Come and new investigator
  • 23:30statuses because those might
  • 23:32be pieces of information that
  • 23:34not everyone knows about and
  • 23:36may help them in terms of planning
  • 23:39that transition to independence as
  • 23:41they're coming off their case and
  • 23:42we're just being helpful to hear
  • 23:44your perspectives on. Michael,
  • 23:45make a couple comments in Richard.
  • 23:47Please add on to what I probably don't know,
  • 23:49but so there's you know we've been
  • 23:51focusing a lot of discussion on these
  • 23:55training opportunities, you know.
  • 23:56And we talked, you know,
  • 23:58probably more specific to this crowd.
  • 24:00K20 threes, but there was other
  • 24:02mechanisms as well and I would sort
  • 24:05of emphasize that you know the way
  • 24:07the training program was designed.
  • 24:09This it's it's a way for us.
  • 24:12You know the NIH two invest in an individual.
  • 24:16He's interested in research,
  • 24:17try and help you know through that mechanism.
  • 24:20Provide them with the additional training
  • 24:22around a project that doesn't have to be.
  • 24:25You know, a Nobel project.
  • 24:27I mean, it's it's really
  • 24:28something that is of interest.
  • 24:29That kind of gets started,
  • 24:30but the focus really is on that training
  • 24:33with an understanding that you know at
  • 24:35the end of that that's training program.
  • 24:38You know we have somebody who's
  • 24:40really ready and capable of you know,
  • 24:42supporting and being supported
  • 24:44by RR R1 type markets, or are.
  • 24:46Regular research grants,
  • 24:48so it really is an investment in the person.
  • 24:51That being said,
  • 24:52moving past that 'cause there's a lot of
  • 24:54different research mechanisms that we have,
  • 24:57the new investigator status that
  • 24:59you were talking about is just an
  • 25:02effort that's been made NIH wide
  • 25:04to help broaden a little bit.
  • 25:06Some of those stringent paylin territories
  • 25:10for investigators that are just
  • 25:12walking into that competitive space.
  • 25:15So basically what that means?
  • 25:17Is that they're not really
  • 25:19reviewed differently,
  • 25:19although I mean study sections.
  • 25:21Do they do distinguish between somebody
  • 25:24who's a new investigator versus somebody
  • 25:27who's an established investigator?
  • 25:29They're still going to get
  • 25:30evaluated on this science,
  • 25:31but often what the institutes have
  • 25:33done is they've extended pay lines,
  • 25:35and there's certain situations to
  • 25:37still be able to pay somebody.
  • 25:39You know that may have been close,
  • 25:41but maybe it's just rookie mistakes
  • 25:43because they're still learning.
  • 25:45You know, those aren't initiative guided.
  • 25:47Things those are really sort
  • 25:48of policy Dr driven things.
  • 25:49It's just things that you know
  • 25:51we try and do a broader space to
  • 25:53help you know support,
  • 25:54but I you know I always steer folks
  • 25:56towards you know the opportunities
  • 25:58of the training programs because
  • 26:00I think they're great.
  • 26:01You know,
  • 26:02I think what happens is very often we get
  • 26:05folks that will come to us and they'll say,
  • 26:07you know,
  • 26:08I want to do an R21
  • 26:09because it's a small grant.
  • 26:10It gets under the radar screen.
  • 26:12It's perfect because I don't have
  • 26:13preliminary data and all of that,
  • 26:15and I don't know that that's necessarily the.
  • 26:17This streamlined,
  • 26:18easy way in because our 20 ones
  • 26:21are a very unique specific type
  • 26:23of mechanism that NIH uses,
  • 26:25and it's not at all what
  • 26:27investigators think it is.
  • 26:28And so I think that you know
  • 26:31the training route you know,
  • 26:33particularly in the early stage career
  • 26:34is is a really good opportunity
  • 26:36to kind of get into that.
  • 26:38The only other comment that I'll
  • 26:40make on mechanisms because it's a
  • 26:42convoluted sort of spaced for us 'cause
  • 26:44there's so many is that I prefer that
  • 26:46folks come to us, not necessarily.
  • 26:48Thinking about what they want to apply to,
  • 26:50but you know the interest in what
  • 26:51they're trying to apply for a meeting
  • 26:53that we focus on the project and then
  • 26:55we can kind of maybe go backwards
  • 26:56and find what best fits that space
  • 26:58because you know there are different
  • 27:01mechanisms intended across NIH to
  • 27:03support different types of research.
  • 27:05And you know if you were trying to write,
  • 27:08you know a grant for a specific mechanism,
  • 27:10thinking that your target is
  • 27:12the mechanism first,
  • 27:12you're probably going to fail before you
  • 27:14succeed because it doesn't work that way.
  • 27:16You know the mechanism is just literally.
  • 27:18Something that facilitates
  • 27:19our ability to to to fund it.
  • 27:22So really the important part is the project,
  • 27:24or in the case the training
  • 27:25and that kind of thing.
  • 27:26I don't know, Richard,
  • 27:27do you have another thought on that?
  • 27:28'cause I'm?
  • 27:29No, no, I I think that was great.
  • 27:31What you said I won't I just try to
  • 27:34attack the question from a different
  • 27:36perspective what what I would say
  • 27:38is that we actually have a training
  • 27:40office which is run by Steve Corn.
  • 27:42So I think that it would be important
  • 27:44if you have not to talk to him.
  • 27:46In addition to that,
  • 27:47we actually have a diversity training
  • 27:49office and I've referenced that.
  • 27:51So if you're an individual from
  • 27:54one of those underrepresented
  • 27:55categories that I talked about
  • 27:57earlier than you should speak with.
  • 27:59From Michelle zones London.
  • 28:01People from that office as well
  • 28:04because it's got mentioned, we do
  • 28:05have a lot of mechanisms that are there.
  • 28:08If you do have a K.
  • 28:11We as Scott mentioned,
  • 28:12that isn't investment and so having
  • 28:14a K does increase your chance of
  • 28:16going on and getting your your
  • 28:18first are even though people can get
  • 28:20ours without having case that that
  • 28:23there's definitely a benefit to that.
  • 28:25I guess the only other thing that I
  • 28:27would say if you're an early career.
  • 28:30A stage investigator and you don't have
  • 28:32a K and you haven't submitted in our I.
  • 28:35I think it's important to sort of
  • 28:37still sort of look at your career
  • 28:39trajectory and see you know where you
  • 28:41want to go and what it is that you are
  • 28:43interested in doing at Scott saying.
  • 28:45Do you want to develop a research area or
  • 28:47you continue to publish in a particular area?
  • 28:50Do you want to move in
  • 28:52the patient care space?
  • 28:53You know if you're having difficulty
  • 28:55coming up with a research project or
  • 28:57moving in that direction, do you need?
  • 29:00More training in that area.
  • 29:03There is a a program.
  • 29:05It's for, UM,
  • 29:06diverse individuals,
  • 29:07but it's called to transcend program
  • 29:09and it's for early career stage and
  • 29:12investigators from diverse backgrounds
  • 29:14where you can get masters in clinical
  • 29:16research and help to develop specific
  • 29:19games for project so it just sort
  • 29:22of consider is that what sort of?
  • 29:26Uhm?
  • 29:28Slowing you down if that's if that's
  • 29:30if you're interested in a career
  • 29:32and continuing a career in research,
  • 29:34so you really have to have that
  • 29:36that conversation with yourself,
  • 29:38because ultimately it is you
  • 29:40being comfortable.
  • 29:41Being able to get up and go to
  • 29:43work everyday and and feeling
  • 29:45good about what you're doing.
  • 29:46It's going to be a lot of work,
  • 29:48but if you are doing something
  • 29:49that you really like, then it it?
  • 29:51It doesn't seem as much as work,
  • 29:53so you really have to have that
  • 29:55conversation with yourself to
  • 29:56balance all those factors together.
  • 29:58Uhm, so I think that that's important.
  • 30:01Uh we we talked about I.
  • 30:03I mentioned the the first program,
  • 30:05which was a program to try to retain
  • 30:08cohorts of diverse individuals and academia.
  • 30:12So that's important because
  • 30:14it's a vulnerable state.
  • 30:16Being an early stage investigator,
  • 30:18you're sort of developing
  • 30:20your own research area,
  • 30:22developing your self as
  • 30:24a practicing clinician,
  • 30:26and also a person, an academic department.
  • 30:28And so there are a lot of things
  • 30:30that may be going on in your mind.
  • 30:31You can't talk to people about or
  • 30:34you feel sort of singled out, or,
  • 30:36you know, can't address those things.
  • 30:39So again, you have to find the right
  • 30:41people to talk to, to do those.
  • 30:43And there are people that
  • 30:44are there to to help you.
  • 30:45And if we can help at the NIH, then sort of.
  • 30:49You know, let us know.
  • 30:51I have my email there.
  • 30:53That again, was a roundabout
  • 30:55way to answering the question,
  • 30:56but wanted to say something
  • 30:58different from what God said.
  • 30:59So just think just think about that.
  • 31:02Yeah,
  • 31:02I'm gonna have to jump off of
  • 31:04that DSMB and I think you got it.
  • 31:05Your session is going to continue,
  • 31:07but the only thing that I would
  • 31:09sort of part with is patience and
  • 31:11persistence are are really important
  • 31:14attributes to success as well as
  • 31:18acknowledging that frustration and
  • 31:20failure is part of the process.
  • 31:22You know it, it doesn't.
  • 31:24You know nothing.
  • 31:25Nothing become successful overnight.
  • 31:26I mean, I think it's it.
  • 31:27It takes time, but if you do invest
  • 31:30that that patients in that persistence.
  • 31:33It it's, you know, we've seen,
  • 31:35I think more rewards than than
  • 31:37in failures in the long run.
  • 31:43Good thanks, thanks God.
  • 31:44Thanks for hanging around.
  • 31:45I see a question from Mike in the chat.
  • 31:48I mean I, I think yeah if you want
  • 31:52to email me we can talk about that.
  • 31:54We do have.
  • 31:55We have a separate line of funding
  • 31:57for projects in the 80RD space,
  • 31:59but you know that you have to think
  • 32:02which between delirium versus.
  • 32:06You know mild cognitive impairment going
  • 32:09along the trajectory of sort of that
  • 32:11ADR BSP versus delirium from one of the
  • 32:14other factors that can cause delirium.
  • 32:17So, but I I think it's an
  • 32:20interesting topic and we can talk
  • 32:22about that more if you want to.
  • 32:24I don't know if you,
  • 32:25I know you're have a tight timeline, so.
  • 32:28Uh, I think we're gonna have to
  • 32:30stop the next minute so it may
  • 32:31be better if you just email me
  • 32:33and we can talk about it more.
  • 32:38Thank you so much, Richard and
  • 32:40Scott and everyone for attending a.
  • 32:43I think we will go ahead and move.