Medicinal Plants: Episode I

Transcript

• 00:10Hello and welcome to another episode of the
• 00:13Yale Journal of biology and medicine podcast.
• 00:15YJBMis a pubMed
• 00:17indexed quarterly Journal edited by
• 00:19Yale medical graduate and professional
• 00:21students and peer reviewed by experts
• 00:23in the fields of biology and medicine.
• 00:26Each issue of the Journal is devoted to
• 00:29a focused topic and through the YJBM
• 00:31podcast we will take you through the past,
• 00:35present and future of the
• 00:36issues subject matter.
• 00:37This episode is part of our series devoted
• 00:40to our June 2020 issue on medicinal plants.
• 00:43I am your host Wesley Lewis,
• 00:46a second year graduate students in
• 00:49computational biology and Bioinformatics.
• 00:51Today we were speaking with
• 00:53Doctor Loizaga-Velder,
• 00:54Loizaga-Velder is a
• 00:57German Mexican clinical psychologist
• 00:58and psychotherapist who has been
• 01:01investigating the therapeutic
• 01:02potential of psychedelics in both
• 01:04indigenous and modern mental health
• 01:06contexts for over 25 years.
• 01:09She is a founding member and director
• 01:12of research and psychotherapy at the
• 01:14Institute for Intercultural Medicine,
• 01:16Eirika in Mexico.
• 01:17She completed an MA in psychology
• 01:19from the University of Koblenz,
• 01:21Landau,
• 01:22as well as her PhD in medical psychology
• 01:25from the Heidelberg University in Germany.
• 01:28Doctor Lewis,
• 01:29uh,
• 01:29give elder is a researcher and
• 01:31adjunct professor at the National
• 01:33Autonomous University of Mexico,
• 01:35where she continues to add to
• 01:37her body of research alongside
• 01:39teaching and private practice.
• 01:41After coming across descriptions of her
• 01:42work file that Yale psychedelic science
• 01:44group here at the Yale School of Medicine,
• 01:47we at watch.
• 01:48ABM were immediately impressed
• 01:49and we're happy to have Anya
• 01:51on our podcast today on ya.
• 01:52How are you?
• 01:55Very well, thank you.
• 01:58Generally, these interviews
• 02:00focus on topics of our quarterly
• 02:02Journal issues with Arjun,
• 02:03issue pertaining to medicinal plants.
• 02:05This certainly aligns with your
• 02:06body of work on the clinical
• 02:08uses of biological psychedelics,
• 02:10so I'd like to talk about that.
• 02:13But firstly, I'm very interested in
• 02:14your path as a scientist in clinician,
• 02:17could you describe your academic backgrounds?
• 02:19How did your University studies evolve,
• 02:21leading you to research topics
• 02:23like the psychology of addiction
• 02:24and psychedelic treatment regimes?
• 02:26And was this something you were
• 02:28always interested in?
• 02:31Yeah, actually, uh medicinal plans and
• 02:34natural medicine was something I was
• 02:38interested in since early childhood.
• 02:40My grandmother was a homemade
• 02:43herbalist and I was always
• 02:46fascinated with medicine or plans.
• 02:49Then in my. Other loose ends.
• 02:53I accompanied a very different through
• 02:57a psychological break that led him to
• 03:01inpatient psychiatric care and got some.
• 03:04Through him, the experience of also
• 03:08the limitation that psychiatric
• 03:10treatment has to offer for serious
• 03:14mental health challenges.
• 03:16So I took a sabbatical after
• 03:20finishing high school and, um.
• 03:26I had the opportunity to live in
• 03:29a ship people community for over
• 03:32six months and got introduced to
• 03:35the Alaska healing practices there.
• 03:39It was a very life changing
• 03:42experience for me and.
• 03:44After deciding to a study psychology.
• 03:48Uhm, my vocation was always tube rich, um?
• 03:54Knowledge systems of other
• 03:57cultures about mental health and
• 04:00western mental health practices.
• 04:04I got a very inspired.
• 04:08Actually also Amanda sense by Stanislav
• 04:11Grof books some that I found fascinating and.
• 04:15So actually since since the beginning
• 04:18of my studies in psychology I knew
• 04:22that psychedelic medicine and
• 04:24also indigenous practices around
• 04:26psychedelic use of Medicine.
• 04:29Was something I would like to research
• 04:32more in depth with their potential off.
• 04:36Expanding current models of Western Health.
• 04:40So yeah,
• 04:41it was something that I have to
• 04:46dedicated my life through since.
• 04:49And um, dictum feel dumb.
• 04:54I got interested through exploring how,
• 04:58uh,
• 04:58there is a spectrum of use of
• 05:02psychoactive substances that can
• 05:05range from beneficial use through
• 05:08addictive and harmful use so.
• 05:11Um,
• 05:12have my interest in addiction
• 05:14and then later also finding more
• 05:18efficient ways to treat addiction
• 05:21through the use of psychedelics and
• 05:25specifically psychedelic plans.
• 05:30That's really interesting.
• 05:31Thank you for sharing. You're welcome.
• 05:36So next question, much of your
• 05:38research focuses on the theoretical
• 05:40and quantitative aspects of the
• 05:41response to Ayawaska and treatments
• 05:43for addiction or eating disorders.
• 05:46How did these two major cohorts
• 05:48of patients come to be?
• 05:49And could you elaborate on the structure
• 05:52and findings of these studies?
• 05:55Yeah, on my first study guard,
• 05:59inspired by a psychological internship,
• 06:02I had the opportunity to do an accuracy.
• 06:07Which is a Therapeutic and Research Center
• 06:13in Peru in the therapeutic program is uhm.
• 06:20A combination of both indigenous
• 06:22therapeutic approaches.
• 06:23Investor in therapeutic
• 06:24approaches to addiction.
• 06:26So I had the opportunity
• 06:29of collaborate there and.
• 06:31In terms of modeling the research for my pH,
• 06:36DI found it interesting to
• 06:38more in Depth Explorer.
• 06:41The therapeutic mechanisms of
• 06:43ayawaska for addiction treatment.
• 06:45How this is different or similar to
• 06:49therapeutic processes people have in
• 06:51conventional treatment programs and
• 06:53how the use of indigenous medicine
• 06:56could be possibly integrated into
• 06:59Western and health practices.
• 07:02That's how this research on
• 07:04Ayawaska an addiction came along.
• 07:07Actually, it's a qualitative research,
• 07:09not a quantitative research meaning.
• 07:13I was interesting in the questions.
• 07:16What are the mechanisms
• 07:18of change whether the UM,
• 07:21pudic factors in in those treatments?
• 07:25Um?
• 07:26Then,
• 07:27uh.
• 07:31Inspired by research,
• 07:32but also come by a conversation with a
• 07:37very dear colleague Doctor Adela, France.
• 07:41We discussed a lot how the entology,
• 07:45the nerve biology and the
• 07:47clinical presentation,
• 07:48even the treatment approaches of
• 07:51addiction and eating approaches
• 07:53eating like approaches to eating
• 07:56disorders are similar, so.
• 08:00In in this way, uhm?
• 08:04We saw that would be worse
• 08:08exploring her how Ayawaska.
• 08:10Uh, could possibly also help people
• 08:13struggling with eating disorders,
• 08:15and both of us in new some
• 08:18patients who had undergone.
• 08:20Both eating disorders treatment
• 08:22in the conventional way and
• 08:25eating disorder treatment.
• 08:28Uh, through Ayawaska,
• 08:29which they thought out an individual
• 08:32quest forge for something more in depth.
• 08:36So our research God inspired
• 08:38finding out how could this be
• 08:41useful or not useful for patients
• 08:44suffering from this condition.
• 08:51I think that does basically answer
• 08:54the question that I was asking.
• 08:57OK, so next question.
• 08:58Moving back to the theoretical
• 09:00aspects of using ayawaska is
• 09:02a tool for psychotherapy.
• 09:03Could you possibly speak more to
• 09:05the commonality of this practice?
• 09:07The various effects patients might
• 09:09experience and the role of the
• 09:11psychotherapist and guiding the patient.
• 09:17OK um. Ayawaska is a plant based,
• 09:22a psychedelic come.
• 09:25Added differences of Ayawaska an uh
• 09:28other psychedelics like psilocybe
• 09:31in which are also commonly more
• 09:34used in a psychiatric realm.
• 09:36It that I was has a strong
• 09:40physical effect in many people.
• 09:43It has an emetic effect,
• 09:46meaning they they need to approach during
• 09:49the non already states of consciousness.
• 09:53Other people have other
• 09:56strong physical sensation.
• 09:58My quality.
• 09:59Huge and also other studies that
• 10:02I've read indicates that this
• 10:05body oriented effect seems to
• 10:07have a specific therapeutic value
• 10:10in conditions such as addiction
• 10:13and also eating disorders.
• 10:16Because both condition involves
• 10:19the body very much so.
• 10:22People tend to have very
• 10:25physical experience also.
• 10:26Not only mental experience but.
• 10:30People are suffering from addiction,
• 10:33have shared experience such as this.
• 10:38Subjective sensation of really
• 10:41expelling the toxins they have put
• 10:44into the body or a more like a buddy
• 10:48oriented therapeutic experience
• 10:49of getting rid of Guild through
• 10:53the vomit and having them this
• 10:56symbolic healing effect of really
• 10:59feeling released in this way.
• 11:01Whereas some patients with eating
• 11:04disorders have shared experience such up.
• 11:08An appreciating their body again.
• 11:12Being able to really inhabit their body
• 11:17and becoming aware of the body and dumb.
• 11:23Specifically,
• 11:23people with bulimia had to have shared
• 11:28their experience of how the vomiting
• 11:31with with Iowa Osca is different.
• 11:33Well through with vomiting and
• 11:36they experience with with bulimia
• 11:39an very very different in their
• 11:41experience and really helped them too.
• 11:44Um break through this vicious
• 11:47circle of vomiting,
• 11:49curiously through a similar symptoms,
• 11:52but with a very different experience.
• 11:57And then many patients some.
• 12:02May have cognitive experience such as
• 12:06insides in their maladaptive behavior.
• 12:10Inside and how they are harming
• 12:13themselves or how they are harming others,
• 12:17which might be this turning point
• 12:20for finding motivation to change
• 12:23and undergoing a longer treatment.
• 12:26Uh, the another category of experience.
• 12:30Our spiritual or peak experiences where?
• 12:37Participants may experience a very
• 12:40meaningful mystical experience that
• 12:42they perceive as completely life
• 12:45changing for them or changing their.
• 12:48The values of life.
• 12:51Giving the meaning in life and this for
• 12:56some people has been the perio mental
• 13:00moment of being able to do a change.
• 13:05Some force category of experience
• 13:09or emotional experience.
• 13:12Could describe the mass,
• 13:15experience of emotional regulation,
• 13:17or emotional catarsis.
• 13:19Some participants reported to
• 13:22be able to release grief fear.
• 13:27Um, or blocked emotions.
• 13:29Being able to experience emotion they have
• 13:34not experienced in childhood in this way.
• 13:38And then we,
• 13:39we know from our UMD psychological practice
• 13:43that both addiction and eating disorders,
• 13:47oftentimes very intimately related to
• 13:50difficulties with emotional regulation.
• 13:52So this experience of being able
• 13:56to experience these emotional
• 13:58experience from another point of view.
• 14:02Um?
• 14:03And for some people have a
• 14:06strong therapeutic value.
• 14:08Um?
• 14:11What,
• 14:11uh?
• 14:12But the role of the facilitators an
• 14:17in this aspect is on the one hand,
• 14:23preparing participants for such
• 14:26an experience.
• 14:28Because on the one hand there needs to be a
• 14:32clear intention for for such a
• 14:35therapeutic experience to happen,
• 14:37and also a certain kind of ready Nishan.
• 14:42This would be the role of the facilitator
• 14:46of the therapists to come to prepare
• 14:49a patient for experience to scan who
• 14:53is app to have this kind of experience
• 14:56because there's content occasions.
• 14:58Ayawaska, Certainly.
• 15:00A therapeutic tool that is
• 15:03not adequate for everybody.
• 15:05So for some people would be
• 15:09completely counterproductive,
• 15:10and then after the preparation
• 15:12that the role of the facilitating
• 15:15is just guiding a safe space,
• 15:19holding a safe space for this memory state.
• 15:24Consciousness to cure.
• 15:26Administrating the adequate dose.
• 15:28For individual physical and
• 15:32psychological constitution.
• 15:34And Uhm.
• 15:36Providing the ideal setting
• 15:40conducive to introspection an to
• 15:45containment of strong emotions that
• 15:49might might occur in this way.
• 15:54And and the third element of uhm?
• 15:59Good facilitated from, uh.
• 16:03The pedic outcomes would would be
• 16:06the integration of those experience
• 16:08to to help people to integrate
• 16:11this experience integer life
• 16:13make meaning out of it and.
• 16:15And helping people to to really
• 16:18implement those experiences
• 16:19changes they might have experience.
• 16:26So I do have one question then.
• 16:28Is it the case that the
• 16:31facilitator is mostly,
• 16:32as you said, just providing the
• 16:35environment for introspection?
• 16:36Or are they also prompting introspection?
• 16:39And as someone who has spent time
• 16:42studying and being immersed in some
• 16:44of the traditional shamanic cultures
• 16:46that these treatments originate from,
• 16:49what are some of the ways that maybe the?
• 16:54Modern case of Usain therapy or even neo
• 16:59shamanic cases of psychedelic tourism.
• 17:02Differ from the traditional usage
• 17:05cases and techniques.
• 17:09Yeah, I'm in indigenous um ceremony.
• 17:12I would say that, uh,
• 17:16one of the main characteristics of a
• 17:20good facilitator is this complementary
• 17:23sensitization to the state of consciousness
• 17:28of the patients or of the group,
• 17:32and being able to.
• 17:36To add company with the right song
• 17:40like in indigenous healing tradition,
• 17:43music is one of the main therapeutic
• 17:47tools for guiding than an artist.
• 17:51States of consciousness with
• 17:53ayawaska infrastructure ring is
• 17:56so this is some more intuitive
• 18:00process of the healer being able to.
• 18:03Um, to tune into the groups or to the
• 18:07patients need in the way of guiding or
• 18:10structuring them in a state of constant
• 18:13with the appropriate song in the moment.
• 18:17So, uhm.
• 18:19I say like them,
• 18:22the main difference in between
• 18:27authentic indigenous facilitators an
• 18:30Neo Shamans is the depth of knowledge.
• 18:35And the depth of experience.
• 18:39So, uhm.
• 18:43In in, in the right context,
• 18:46the number states of consciousness
• 18:49I think could provide this space
• 18:53for self regulation of the psyche.
• 18:57So it it's it's this balance that
• 19:00traditional healers have in between
• 19:03really providing a safe context.
• 19:05Ideally an not intervening too much.
• 19:09I mean ideally because unfortunately
• 19:11not all indigenous healers are.
• 19:16Ethically, impeccable and this could
• 19:18have devastating effects for patients.
• 19:21Psychological helps if there's
• 19:23an ethical transgression in
• 19:25another state of consciousness,
• 19:27so this is something that could.
• 19:32Happen bosin authentic indigenous and inside,
• 19:35oh, shamanic rituals,
• 19:37right this ethical transgression?
• 19:39And then another factor is really
• 19:42like the depth of knowledge.
• 19:46The depth of experience.
• 19:49Uh, a properly trained Healers Hiller
• 19:51has alot alot in depth experience
• 19:54in our states of consciousness.
• 19:57In is not a freight. If.
• 20:00The patients goes into a very
• 20:03unusual state of consciousness.
• 20:06Ann is. Able to to guides.
• 20:11Uh, this patient back into normal
• 20:14consciousness and nail shamanic practitioner
• 20:17probably would not know what to do.
• 20:20And this might lead to severe
• 20:24psychological affect tatian of the
• 20:27participant and and I think another
• 20:31factor of differences really like the UM.
• 20:35The knowledge about appropriate dosing,
• 20:38which indigenous healers with
• 20:41in depth straining have alot
• 20:45of empirical experience of.
• 20:49Which patient administrator which tools?
• 20:52It's not one those for all.
• 20:56It's also that those who
• 20:58serve very important factor.
• 21:01You also mentioned that maybe
• 21:03this is not a treatment that
• 21:05suitable for all patients,
• 21:07and I was wondering if you
• 21:10could elaborate on that.
• 21:11May be particularly in the
• 21:13environment of addiction as well.
• 21:15I think it is somewhat a counter
• 21:18intuitive concepts but certainly
• 21:19illegitimate one that somebody
• 21:21with substance abuse related
• 21:23disorders could still benefit from
• 21:25the use of a specific substance.
• 21:27In this case ayawaska for
• 21:30aspects of introspection that.
• 21:31May help their recovery.
• 21:36Uh-huh yeah, in terms of counter indications,
• 21:43most importantly is are the
• 21:47predisposition for psychosis.
• 21:50Or certain bipolar disorders and
• 21:54certain personality disorders
• 21:56which could get worse instead
• 21:59of better with with Ayawaska.
• 22:02Also, then there's some
• 22:04physical count indications,
• 22:06like patients with severe
• 22:08cirrhosis or liver damage.
• 22:12Uh, should not take Ayawaska because
• 22:16this could affect the liver more. Um?
• 22:22And then there's also like gastrointestinal
• 22:28lesions or cardiovascular conditions
• 22:31that account indications to iOS cues.
• 22:36Um and certain medications also,
• 22:39like specifically the SS,
• 22:42arise but also other medication,
• 22:46so there's actually a whole
• 22:50spectrum from conditions.
• 22:53That people should be aware of,
• 22:56and I think that that again is a difference
• 22:59in between a well trained practitioner.
• 23:03Ana Soto Charleton,
• 23:05who would know which people might benefit
• 23:09from this from this treatment an.
• 23:12For which it would be even
• 23:16dangerous to participate.
• 23:18So those are important points.
• 23:21For me it's not counter
• 23:23in intuitive to a treat.
• 23:26Addiction with Ayawaska in the sense that.
• 23:31Um?
• 23:33We need to have a mind that often time
• 23:38addiction of really very severe, an uhm,
• 23:44treatment resistant conditions and
• 23:47even life threatening conditions so.
• 23:50Helping um patience to being
• 23:54able to achieve come.
• 23:59Uh, appointing consciousness where
• 24:01where they can, uh, start a change in
• 24:06life is a huge opportunity. Like come.
• 24:10Need to remember also that even bill will
• 24:15so many founded I Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 24:19He had a mystical peak,
• 24:21experiences that for him was the
• 24:24changing moment that'll help them
• 24:26to come out of his addiction.
• 24:29And, um, psychedelic,
• 24:31Cindy appropriate context have
• 24:33the possibility to induce such
• 24:36peak experience and patients,
• 24:38and also other experience with therapeutic
• 24:41value that can be beneficially if they
• 24:45are accompanied in the right way.
• 24:49I am at some clinical practitioners
• 24:53find that specifically for people
• 24:56with substance abuse condition.
• 24:59The integration part and the
• 25:03psychotherapeutic accompany
• 25:05meant Additionally to the.
• 25:08Um, ayawaska experience itself is a
• 25:11very important therapeutic factor,
• 25:14so I think that Alaska treatment could be
• 25:18combined with with other substance, um,
• 25:22abuse treatment in a mutually beneficial way,
• 25:26meaning that the traditional substance
• 25:29abuse treatment could be potent sized,
• 25:33are catalyzed by Oscar,
• 25:36and in the same way.
• 25:39That the ayawaska experience
• 25:41can be anchored and um,
• 25:43rooted in everyday life through
• 25:45other substance abuse treatments.
• 25:47So it does sound like that
• 25:49integration part of
• 25:51the therapy. The fact that this
• 25:53is something that is being done
• 25:55in a therapeutic context and
• 25:58therefore taken within that
• 26:00context is extremely important.
• 26:02Yeah, and I just
• 26:03wanted to also mention you.
• 26:05You said it's counter intuitive to use a
• 26:09psychedelic to treat addiction, I think.
• 26:12This comes more from our biased understanding
• 26:18that psychedelics have been considered
• 26:22for many years as very dangerous.
• 26:27Substances that that are easily abused.
• 26:31I think it's important to take and,
• 26:35uh, into account that, uh, it depends.
• 26:38Again, from the context,
• 26:40in a right therapeutic context,
• 26:43syktich psychedelics have
• 26:44proven to be quite safe.
• 26:47Indications are taking into account
• 26:50and if there is ethical in Bellevue per
• 26:54therapist companying such an experience
• 26:57and actually psychedelics don't produce.
• 27:01Uh, addiction don't produce
• 27:03reinforcing effect,
• 27:04so um patients rarely seek out
• 27:08psychedelics in a compulsive way.
• 27:11So I think those those are important.
• 27:18Points to consider.
• 27:21So being that you've practiced and I've
• 27:23been a part of this research community for
• 27:27what's coming up on 25 years of study, how?
• 27:30If you seen those views of stigma
• 27:33shifts and how have you seen the broader
• 27:36research community big into change?
• 27:38Hopefully as far as opening up to the
• 27:42potential of these therapies. Yeah,
• 27:44it's very encouraging to see that there
• 27:48is a increasing interest in the mental
• 27:52health field for psychedelics again,
• 27:56and there's very good scientist and mental
• 28:00health professionals. Who are, uhm?
• 28:05Uh, can do sing about structural trials.
• 28:09Um, producing a good scientific evidence
• 28:13and approaching the psychedelics with the
• 28:17care and with the respect that is necessary
• 28:21with working with those substances.
• 28:24So, uhm. This is the increasing part.
• 28:30On the other hand, uhm, I think there
• 28:35is a lot of also furrier UM where, uhm,
• 28:41this field might be expanding too quickly
• 28:45without there being enough throughout Lee.
• 28:49Trained mental health
• 28:52professionals to accompanying.
• 28:55Uh, the uh psychedelic assisted
• 28:59treatment processes in an adequate way.
• 29:03So, uh, I see this as a main challenge.
• 29:07Data field is growing so quickly,
• 29:10and there's there's not enough throughout.
• 29:13Lee trained professionals out there.
• 29:16To being safely accompanying
• 29:19all those processes.
• 29:21And come on the other hand, uh.
• 29:26Asum my my interest has been always
• 29:33with indigenous traditions I am.
• 29:38Observed there's not enough honoring
• 29:41of the knowledge systems that
• 29:44indigenous medicines have preserved
• 29:47over so many years in the terms of.
• 29:51Other non pharmacological aspects of
• 29:54the use of psychedelics and I think that
• 29:58psychedelic research would benefit.
• 30:00It will it taking more into account the.
• 30:06The depths and the richness of knowledge
• 30:09that is an indigenous at treatment practices.
• 30:14Um, an yeah.
• 30:15and I also think there should be
• 30:19more reciprocity, uhm?
• 30:21For indigenous communities and
• 30:23their needs of mental health,
• 30:26and in this way,
• 30:27like I see there's millions and
• 30:30millions of dollars being invested and
• 30:33psilocybe in research, for instance.
• 30:36But there's there's little uhm.
• 30:41Consciousness of maybe reciprocity
• 30:43to those indigenous people who made
• 30:47the Western science aware about this
• 30:51molecule that has led to all this research,
• 30:55and those are often very marginalized.
• 30:59Populations that have also strong
• 31:02mental health issues,
• 31:04and I do think there should be
• 31:08more reciprocity of this field.
• 31:12Uh,
• 31:12taking into account the needs of
• 31:15indigenous cultures and giving
• 31:16back to them in some ways.
• 31:19Powerful to hear.
• 31:21I hadn't thought of that context
• 31:23and I would hope that in the future
• 31:26we can see those marginalized
• 31:28communities being given the care
• 31:31that they certainly deserve.
• 31:33and I hope the individuals in
• 31:36these communities that the storied
• 31:39history of these treatments and.
• 31:42Of practitioners who have been
• 31:44helpful in revolutionary in the past,
• 31:47and these practices in general
• 31:49can be treated with the respect
• 31:52that is deserved. Yeah.
• 31:57That's my hope too.
• 32:00So in terms of the academic
• 32:04and clinical community is.
• 32:07It sounds as if training programs
• 32:10will probably have to evolve to
• 32:12keep up with all of the change
• 32:14that is currently happening.
• 32:17As these treatments become more
• 32:19common and is more practitioners,
• 32:21more clinical practitioners seek to
• 32:23be able to offer these therapies.
• 32:27Do you think that is a challenge that?
• 32:32That these training programs are
• 32:33prepared for, or that is being
• 32:35undergone well at this point.
• 32:38I think that was training programs cover
• 32:42many aspects, but one aspect that in
• 32:45my point of view is not sufficiently
• 32:48well covered and this is due to
• 32:52regulatory restricted restrictions.
• 32:55Is the self experience of therapists with the
• 32:58non are states of consciousness psychedelic?
• 33:02Having had the experience of living with
• 33:06indigenous Healers who work with psychedelic?
• 33:10The self experience of the facilitator
• 33:12is a very very important part of the
• 33:15training to to work with those substances.
• 33:19So, uhm, the current regulatory
• 33:22situation does not allow in.
• 33:26In the sufficient extent,
• 33:28though, this kind of experience
• 33:30for for practitioners.
• 33:32And also I think it just takes time.
• 33:38Like if you look into indigenous use of.
• 33:45Psychedelic plans it's oftentimes
• 33:47training process over 10 years.
• 33:49I would not say that this this would be
• 33:53the minimum time an investor in setting,
• 33:57but I do think that the really
• 34:01true specialization in psychedelic
• 34:03medicine needs more time than the
• 34:07current training programs author.
• 34:09In this way, in, in order to to really come.
• 34:14Um?
• 34:17Um? Fulfill this demanded of the field
• 34:22office right like to have longer
• 34:24training programs more and more in depth.
• 34:27Made more supervision with.
• 34:30With more apprentice ship in this way.
• 34:35Do you have any plans to be involved
• 34:38with such training programs to
• 34:41increase your involvements or
• 34:43try to catalyze this change or?
• 34:47Do you think that your?
• 34:49Maybe research and roll as a
• 34:52practitioner on your own is
• 34:55something that warrants more
• 34:57of your time at the moment.
• 35:03Actually, uhm. Uh,
• 35:05that's something I've been thinking about,
• 35:09and I do think that participate and
• 35:13training programs and next years.
• 35:15'cause I do think that's that's
• 35:18an important contribution.
• 35:19Also in in this field,
• 35:21and that's something I
• 35:23definitely interested in.
• 35:25So along a similar vein,
• 35:27just in talking about your
• 35:29plans for future years,
• 35:31you've talked a little bit about some
• 35:34of your studies that have already occur.
• 35:37Door currently happening.
• 35:38Could you talk a bit about kind
• 35:41of the future that you see for
• 35:43your work and maybe some of the
• 35:46other multitudinous conditions
• 35:48in which these same therapies
• 35:50and treatments might be applied?
• 35:58I'm presently interested in,
• 36:01um, contributing to reopen the
• 36:04field of Clinical Research,
• 36:06an psychedelic medicine medics in Mexico,
• 36:10which is a field that.
• 36:15Has been's uhm?
• 36:16Stopped in in the 70s and the so
• 36:20we're currently with a group of other
• 36:25colleagues working on implementing.
• 36:28Clinical research protocols.
• 36:32And on the other hand, hopefully, um.
• 36:37Being able to, uh,
• 36:40to do experimental treatments,
• 36:42meaning being able to have the
• 36:46permit to therapeutically apply
• 36:48psychedelics for a variety of mental
• 36:52health condition in a safe setting
• 36:55and doing the accompanying research
• 36:58in order to constantly improving
• 37:01the therapeutic interventions.
• 37:03And this is something that I find personally.
• 37:08Very inspiring,
• 37:09so this is something we are working on tune.
• 37:13Getting permits tool to do the
• 37:15actual therapeutic work in the field.
• 37:20I do think that psychedelics
• 37:23you asked me about,
• 37:25like which conditions some certainly.
• 37:27I think, the fields of depression
• 37:30research is a very important field.
• 37:33There's a lot of research
• 37:35done already with psilocybe,
• 37:37and I do think that I could also.
• 37:42Be a therapeutically very valuable
• 37:45in the field of depression research.
• 37:49Ann Certainly also the other field
• 37:54of past traumatic stress disorders,
• 37:57although will and the amazing,
• 37:59very potent candied,
• 38:02have essences ustupu tick.
• 38:05Tool for the past traumatic
• 38:06stress disorder side.
• 38:07I don't think it's the only one.
• 38:09I do think that Iowa school so his
• 38:13certainty pudic value in this field and.
• 38:15And other conditions let,
• 38:17such as obsessive compulsive disorder did,
• 38:21might respond very well to psychedelics.
• 38:24Variety,
• 38:24actually of applications.
• 38:28That's very interesting,
• 38:29so it sounds like the potential for
• 38:32ayawaska to be used as an intervention,
• 38:35and so many cases certainly does exist, and.
• 38:39It's interesting to imagine what further
• 38:42exploration will show in the next 10 years.
• 38:46Uh-huh yeah. And thank you so
• 38:50much again for taking the time
• 38:51to talk with me today.
• 38:54Welcome, thank you for your interest.
• 38:56I really appreciate you sitting with us.
• 38:59Have a wonderful rest of your day.
• 39:02Nice. OK good bye bye.