Yochelson Lecture: "Lone-Actor Terrorism in the Age of the Internet"

April 21, 2023

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00:05Yeah, just click. Got it.
00:08I'm honored to even have been asked to
00:10come and I appreciate so, so kindly.
00:13I've been received here throughout the week.
00:16It's been a great pleasure and
00:18I've learned a lot as well.
00:20Hopefully this will go as well.
00:27I have no real disclosures to make.
00:30I did participate in editing this
00:32book on loan act of terrorism,
00:35but I get no financial rewards for that.
00:39Many of the the much of the material,
00:42if not all of it, is adapted from
00:45this loan act of terrorism. So.
00:52Lone actor terrorism has been around
00:54for quite some time. We'll see that
01:01it's it's even has some identified
01:04instances in the 19th century.
01:07We say lone actor terrorism rather
01:10than lone wolf because lone actor
01:13has less agulatory content to it than
01:17describing somebody as a lone wolf,
01:19which might be considered to be crazy now.
01:22And generally speaking,
01:24we define it as using violence to achieve a
01:29political goal or some other activity that
01:33would maybe in induce fear in the community.
01:37And as you say, the lone actor terrorist
01:40is an individual who does this.
01:42There are certainly many, many examples
01:45of groups that have done it the.
01:51You know, some people would argue
01:53that workplace violence is not low
01:55and after terrorism because the goal
01:57is not to instill fear in the public,
02:00it is to instill fear in the people
02:02who are out there.
02:03So what we're going to be thinking
02:06about today are mostly occasions
02:09where there has been some attempt to
02:12influence the feelings or thoughts
02:15of the public and you know.
02:19We say that the motivational is often
02:23multifactorial and people might get
02:25into some of these activities that
02:27we're going to talk about later
02:29because of a personal loss.
02:31They then identify their loss with
02:35some larger unity activity which gives
02:38them a sense of righteous indignation,
02:40and the two are combined and may lead them
02:44to do actions that are lone acted terrorist.
02:48Mental illness is sometimes involved,
02:51but as I look through most of the
02:54famous lone actor terrorism states,
02:56it's a it's usually a minor factor.
03:00If it's there,
03:01very rarely is it a major factor.
03:04Recent research has tended to say
03:07that perhaps people on the autism
03:09spectrum might be overrepresented
03:11among the lone actor terrorists.
03:14And that's something that I think
03:17is being researched very actively.
03:20And as we get to prevention,
03:22we might talk a little bit more about that.
03:26An example of lone act of terrorism
03:30was the major who felt that people who
03:35followed Islam were being discriminated
03:38against and he took a gun and began
03:41shooting on the Fort Wood campus.
03:44And then we'll talk a little bit more
03:45about the Isle of this California case,
03:47I think, later on.
03:50Interestingly, the United States does
03:52not have a particular statute that is
03:57defined to punish domestic terrorism.
04:01The acts can be punished,
04:03but the terrorist part of it is
04:06not an enhancement or subject
04:08to a separate sentence, but.
04:12Different states do have
04:14statutes that apply to terrorism,
04:17and some of the common things that
04:20you'll find in those statutes are that
04:23it has to be to intimidate or coerce
04:26some civilian population or the government,
04:30And it therefore it's outward
04:32directed in that way in order to
04:35change things as they see it and
04:38of course in the United States.
04:45So here's a a little history of how
04:50far back some of these things go.
04:54The the 1870s Russian activity was to
05:00bring down the czar if at all possible,
05:04and you can see that that was carried
05:07forward in a number of assassinations
05:10and bombings. As time went on.
05:12So we tend to think of this as
05:15a post 9/11 type of situation.
05:18But you can see that there are
05:22quite a few things that you might
05:24consider to be a lone after terrorism
05:28in some of these other venues.
05:31You know, not all of them but like.
05:34We don't really know what the
05:36agenda of the shooter at Texas Tech,
05:38Virginia Tech was,
05:40but it it certainly produced a great fear.
05:46And what's happening now is that
05:49we perceive a great increase in
05:52terrorist activities within.
05:54The United States and we'll see a couple
05:57of charts that actually kind of belie that.
06:01But terrorism has really increased in ISIL
06:05affiliate groups in Subsaharan Africa.
06:08And we see concern and actual terrorism
06:12in the the far right type both in
06:15Western Europe and the United States,
06:18like I said most.
06:20Of the impact is with blown and not
06:23lone actor but groups and but we see a
06:27growing impact of lone actor terrorism
06:30particularly in the far right cases so.
06:34From the point of view of psychiatry,
06:38a lone actor terrorist is 13 times more
06:41likely to have a mental illness than
06:43some of the people who are involved
06:46in Group based terrorist activities.
06:49Some of you may have been at my
06:52talk on distinguishing between.
06:54Delusion and an overvalued idea.
06:58Many of the people who are involved in
07:01the group activities have overvalued
07:03ideas but no mental illness.
07:05And even if they have a mental illness,
07:08it's probably not the cause of
07:11their involvement
07:15as far as far right
07:17terrorism in the West we had.
07:21A growth of this as you can see one
07:24in 2010 and 49 and 2019 and this has
07:29been sort of a a grab bag of various
07:35groups that have been targeted.
07:38Various reasons why people
07:40have been targeted and
07:44they say religiously motivated
07:46terrorism has been decreasing
07:47in the United States.
07:49But if you look at.
07:50The reference it's from 2020
07:53and the the data preceded that.
07:57If you look at the listings of
08:00the Southern Poverty Law Center,
08:02you'll see that religiously
08:05motivated terrorism is quite
08:07steady in the United States,
08:09particularly antisemitic terrorism.
08:13The.
08:1853 attacks in 2019, many were
08:23lone actor terrorists and we,
08:28like I said, we're beginning
08:29to be ultra sensitive to this.
08:33So this kind of illustrates
08:35what I was talking about.
08:37You could see that this very
08:39faint blue line up here is the
08:42Europe and North America and you
08:44could see that it has gone up.
08:47But everything else has gone up
08:49in the same time frame as well
08:51and has gone up with more deaths.
08:56And you can see that in different
08:59regions of the world there's a
09:01different way of approaching terrorism.
09:04In North America we see a lot of
09:07bombings and explosions and armed
09:10assaults and in and you see that.
09:13Bombings and explosions are much
09:16greater in some of the other areas.
09:19This Gray thing is facility
09:22and infrastructure attack.
09:23And perhaps one of the reasons why
09:26this is higher is that we have a
09:29more developed infrastructure here
09:30in the North America and there
09:33are many more stadiums or museums
09:36or then facilities like that that
09:40can be affected by an attack.
09:43And you'll see that the deaths in other
09:48places often reflect some of that.
09:51So we have 167 incidents in
09:55the United States out of 332,
09:59and we have 113 deaths out
10:04of 286 around the world.
10:08And you can see that there are
10:10some surprising places like Norway.
10:12Yeah, where Revik went on a
10:15rampage and was killing people.
10:20That's interesting,
10:21because at his trial there was one
10:23set of psychiatrists who said that it
10:26was the product of a mental illness
10:28and another set that said it was not.
10:31And it was the psychiatrist who said it
10:35was not who was adopted by the poor.
10:40New Zealand is also a very famous
10:43attack and it it led to one of the
10:47conventions that we we try not to
10:50put things on the Internet or on
10:53the news that would tend to glorify
10:56the incident or the perpetrator.
10:59So
11:01there's no dissemination of one of their
11:05of their manifesto here, for example.
11:10Here we see the incidents of the far
11:13right terrorist incidents in the West
11:16and it has been going up and down and
11:19then we have this peak after 2015. And
11:23these tend to be ones that have
11:26characterized and acted out by lone actor,
11:28terrorist who may not be specifically
11:31affiliated with a far right organization.
11:35They may have had contact
11:37with some of those people.
11:38They may have been inspired
11:40by some far right attacks,
11:41they may have read the propaganda online,
11:44but they tend not to be part
11:46of a militaristic structure.
11:50And in 2020 much of the extremism was
11:57racially or ethnically motivated, 40%.
12:01But we can see that's dropped
12:03in half by the end of 2022.
12:06And what we see is more civil unrest,
12:09more of that far right type
12:11that we've been talking about.
12:16The perpetrators in this area
12:21tend almost always to be male.
12:23In this analysis done by the National
12:26Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime,
12:29all of the offenders were male.
12:32The youngest was 15 and the oldest was 88.
12:35And about the average age of the time
12:38of the attack was 37 or so years.
12:41The perpetrators were from every
12:44ethnic group, primarily white,
12:47but also others.
12:50Most of the perpetrators were alone,
12:53never married or divorced or separated.
12:56A third of them had children,
12:58which is an interesting factor that
13:01one might want to do more research on.
13:04And they tended to be fairly
13:06well educated people.
13:10So
13:14if you think about how has the
13:17Internet influenced these things,
13:2076% of offenders since 2012 have
13:23used the Internet for research.
13:25On their attack plans or developing
13:28their facility like a bomb to be
13:31able to use that out in the public.
13:34If you go online you can find many
13:38ways of putting together a weapon.
13:43They're using now 3D printing machines
13:46to make plastic parts of a weapon that
13:50can be smuggled on an airplane perhaps.
13:53And the governments are trying
13:55to crack down on this,
13:57but obviously if it's done in secret,
14:00it's very hard for them to know.
14:03Then we often see people with extremist
14:08views publishing their manifestos online.
14:12Now, not everybody who publishes
14:13goes on to be an active terrorist,
14:16but it can inspire other people.
14:19And often times we'll we'll see an example
14:23later of someone with a manifesto online.
14:27In cells are a very interesting group.
14:29They're men, although there's recently
14:33been some female incest in cell groups.
14:37There are men generally who believe that the
14:40world is ruled by beautiful blonde people,
14:44and they are excluded from having any.
14:48Relationships with the beautiful
14:50woman by these people,
14:52they often refer to as chads.
14:54And so they feel they're completely
14:57locked out of being involved
14:59in a sexual relationship.
15:00And that's why they're called
15:03involuntary celibates.
15:04And they have websites and
15:09chapters that meet.
15:11They discuss some of the theories behind it.
15:14They're mutually supportive.
15:16So they're,
15:17you know,
15:17you have a bunch of people who
15:19have this maladaptive idea and
15:20they get together and they support
15:22each other's maladaptive ideas.
15:24Now,
15:24not every in cell becomes a terrorist either,
15:27but we have had a couple of very,
15:29very significant attacks from
15:32this population.
15:36And here we have a little cartoon that
15:39says that he learned to build the
15:42better mousetrap from the Internet.
15:45And there's the stuff that you and I
15:47probably find on the Internet quite easily.
15:50But there's also these deep web
15:53and dark web and dark net sites
15:57where these things are exchanged.
16:01But you have to have special passwords
16:04to get into contact with some people,
16:08and it's not necessarily something
16:11that you can.
16:13Do like today and get in there tomorrow.
16:16You have to really work your way
16:18into it and gain people's trust.
16:21And instead of using Google they
16:24use the thing called for or some
16:26other type of private browser.
16:30The Internet is also useful
16:33for logistics and planning.
16:37You know, they go online,
16:38they look for things like traffic
16:41patterns and blueprints and maps
16:43that tell them the vulnerable
16:45places to place the bomb timetables
16:47for when the most number of
16:49people are going to be there.
16:51And they even do pick starting
16:54actually to fund their operations.
16:59In the case of Charlottesville,
17:01which was not alone after terrorist,
17:02it was an organized event.
17:05Maybe not even intended to
17:07be terrorists as it began,
17:10it developed using Facebook
17:12and Messenger apps and it was
17:15promoted widely on 4 Chan,
17:19which has had has a long history
17:24and then communicated among
17:26each other using social media.
17:33So we have social needs and reinforcements.
17:37See, we have this young man sitting in the
17:40chair is all charged up and ready to go.
17:42But he doesn't have an identity.
17:44It doesn't. He feels isolated.
17:46And this is the kind of person who can
17:50easily be seduced into either ISIS type
17:53of activity in cell type of activity.
17:57And using their connections becomes as real
18:01to them as real life would be to you and me.
18:05And they gradually develop an attention,
18:11maybe even an addiction type of
18:14relationship with many of the
18:17groups that they are associated with
18:23and some. People have, you know,
18:28their own particular type of political
18:32beliefs, which is perfectly fine.
18:35Subgroups of that may become overly
18:38involved in some of the misinformation
18:41in particular that gets carried about.
18:44And then the next step is to become
18:47more and more activated in the area.
18:50It's seems like some of the algorithms
18:52on some of these social media.
18:55Follow what you look up on Google
18:58and we'll feed you more information
19:01that makes it look like the world is
19:04beginning to think like you think.
19:06And that's what this Overton window is about.
19:09And it's beginning to create an
19:13atmosphere where people have mutually
19:16supported anti-Semitic ideas,
19:18for example,
19:18to the point where they think
19:21that it's universally endorsed.
19:28The, you know, Internet and
19:32social media applications can
19:36also get people to get together.
19:39You know, so that's 11 area
19:42where you can form a mob.
19:45And again, that's not particularly
19:46what we're looking at,
19:47but some people may be involved
19:49in this and then go off on their
19:51own as a lone actor, terrorist.
19:54Pizzagate is something that was
19:58involved in the elections between
20:01Hillary Clinton and President Trump.
20:05Pizza Gate was that there was
20:07a peace parlor in Washington,
20:09DC that in the basement was
20:12involved in abortions, child abuse,
20:15sexual child abuse and the
20:18distribution of ***********.
20:19And somebody who was involved
20:22in this misinformation actually
20:24went there and shot people.
20:27So that's one example of how.
20:32Something that's a bizarre story can
20:35end up having a lone act of terrorist
20:40action leakage. Now,
20:45most people who are engaged in these
20:50types of activities have tells or signs
20:55that they're building up to something.
20:57And it leaks out, so to speak.
20:59So they may not say in their e-mail to mom
21:02I'm going to go out and shoot someone,
21:05but they may begin to increase in
21:08intensity the explication of their anger
21:11toward particular groups or people
21:13and add that can build up over time.
21:17And it's 1 sign that you need
21:19to be careful and maybe consider
21:22some of these things that.
21:24Have been communicated to see if there's
21:27a larger danger that could be avoided.
21:32Often times people who are lone active
21:35terrorists actually post material
21:38on YouTube or some other way that.
21:42Tells the the world why
21:45they're doing this right now.
21:47And of course if you just pick
21:50it up in the the moment that
21:53the attack is happening,
21:55it's not going to be much to help avert it.
21:58But not everybody is that well
22:00organized and they may be able
22:02to see some of these things.
22:12The recent trends of loan act of terrorism,
22:15as the FBI Director has testified repeatedly,
22:20is right wing extremism.
22:21It's somewhat worse than the
22:24United in Western Europe,
22:25even than it might be in the United States.
22:28But this group of whites premises account
22:34for most of what we see right now. The.
22:42Antigovernment sovereign citizens
22:44also account for a large share of
22:48perpetrators in the sense that they
22:51create in people the belief that the
22:54government really doesn't exist,
22:55that you are the government yourself
22:58and usually they're not the source
23:02of individual lone act of terrorists,
23:05but tend to go out in groups
23:07and get involved in.
23:09Recently got involved in
23:11shootings in New Hampshire.
23:14The the person who did the attack
23:19in New Zealand had somehow used the
23:22Internet to live stream his activities,
23:26making himself more famous.
23:32So how do we prepare ourselves
23:37well? In doing an evaluation of
23:41someone who we've been asked to see
23:44because the family might be worried
23:46about the where they're going,
23:48some of the areas that we might
23:51want to take a look at is how
23:54actually do they use their computer?
23:58Do they do searches?
23:59What kinds of searches are
24:01they most interested in?
24:02How What ones are they most successful at?
24:06I? Back in the early days would
24:10often ask people do you play a multi
24:14person game and if So what kind of
24:16identity do you have and why did
24:19you pick that kind of identity?
24:21It often gives you an interest in
24:24how they can see themselves as
24:26a more active person than they
24:28are and and maybe it reflects
24:31an underlying desire to be more
24:33active in a violent sort of way.
24:40You might have to get someone
24:42to do a real forensic search
24:45of the person's Internet life,
24:48but asking the evaluating is often a
24:52way to just even form a bond with them.
24:57Then we can see that do they use?
25:00Virtual private networks or Tor or
25:03other things that might indicate
25:07that they're keeping things secret.
25:10And if they are keeping things secret,
25:12what what are they doing?
25:15Why are they doing it?
25:17You know, are they able to share
25:19it with people and not have that
25:22sharing be accounted the, you know,
25:26the digital calendars that have records
25:29of the anniversaries of different attacks?
25:32Are often very important to the lone
25:35actor terrorist because they might
25:38want to do something that would make
25:43up for a terrible event in the past.
25:47So the they they're very interested
25:51in things like even the perpetrators
25:54birthday to celebrate what he did and so.
26:02The the idea that someone has online
26:06friends but not friends in real life
26:10is an important consideration and you
26:14need to find out perhaps the healthiness
26:18of their online friend relationship.
26:21So you can see that there are a lot of
26:24ways that people who use the Internet
26:28can just can have some ways of.
26:31Evaluating them and getting an idea
26:33what their daily life is like,
26:36what their interests are.
26:38And these are pieces of information
26:41that let you know that maybe they need
26:45a more detailed violence assessment.
26:50I'm not sure why my some of my slides
26:55didn't play here, but the first.
26:59Video that I had for you was a
27:03news clipping from 1966 with the
27:07Texas Tower terrorist and it's it's
27:12essentially the one that we all
27:14remember as the beginning of of of
27:16this type of event in our lifetime.
27:19And what happened was that this
27:22Marine who was a student there
27:25got dressed up as a janitor.
27:29Brought a a bucket which included his
27:33rifle into the building and took the
27:35the elevator up and from the elevator
27:40killed a large number of people and
27:43wounded and also a large number of people.
27:45I think it was fourteen people
27:47killed and 38 wounded and the
27:52you know everybody thought he was bad.
27:55At his autopsy, it was discovered
27:58that he had a a tumor in the brain
28:01that was pressing on his amygdala.
28:04And so it's a reminder that
28:07it's not just the ordinary manic
28:12disorder or psychotic schizophrenic
28:15disorder that may push someone,
28:18it may also be a neurologic disorder and.
28:22You know that had he lived it
28:27it it wouldn't have been known.
28:29This was like way before everybody
28:32had a CAT scan or an MRI machine.
28:35So he he would have gotten sicker
28:39before they discovered it.
28:41And the other video that I was
28:43going to show you was the video of
28:46a an in cell in Santa Barbara, CA.
28:49And he filmed himself just as he
28:53was about to go on the attack.
28:56But before he went on the attack,
28:58his mother was very concerned about
29:01what she was seeing him post on Facebook
29:04and ordinary websites like that,
29:06you know, leakage.
29:08So she called the police and the police came.
29:13And reviewed everything.
29:14Talked to the boy,
29:15he said he wasn't going to do anything.
29:18And they left.
29:19And it was within a few weeks
29:21that this event happened.
29:23But what happened over those weeks
29:25was that the intensity of his
29:27posting change became more intense,
29:29more angry,
29:31And the mother got a look at it while
29:34he was on his way to do the shooting.
29:36And she again called the police
29:39and called the father and they.
29:42Rushed down and while they were on their
29:44way from Los Angeles to Santa Barbara,
29:47they heard on the radio shots fired
29:50and he killed mostly blonde women who
29:56he felt offended him represented those
29:59who offended him because they they
30:03were unwilling to date people like him.
30:07And I wish I had the the video
30:10to show you because.
30:12I'm. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think
30:13I might be able to run it from here.
30:15If you'd like me to try,
30:16Sure. Give it a try so far.
30:18OK, let's see if this works.
30:22So
30:32here's the Texas tower.
30:33One you want me to?
30:34Yes, that would be great.
30:36OK, let's see if this works.
30:38At first I thought this was
30:39Charlottesville, but it was
30:41attention back to the 60s with
30:43protests against the NOR in Vietnam.
30:47It was a summer of the.
30:51Fire in some American cities as
30:54riots spread across the country
30:56and that summer, on August 1st,
30:58all Austin area residents are
31:00wanting to stay away from the
31:02University of Texas campus area.
31:04The local educational TV station on
31:06the campus rolled a camera outside
31:09the studio to capture what was likely
31:11the first ever live broadcast of
31:14a sniper committing mass murder.
31:18Charles Whitman was an architecture
31:20student in a former Marine who had
31:22disguised himself as a janitor,
31:24hit his weapons in a trunk,
31:26then rolled them on a Dolly to an elevator
31:29that took him to the top of the tower.
31:31There he began firing at people
31:34on campus and along the drag
31:36from 230 feet above the ground.
31:3814 people on and near the
31:41campus died and 32 were wounded.
31:45Journalist Forest priest was a
31:47college student at the time.
31:48A bullet barely missed him but struck
31:50and killed the person standing near him.
31:53I think I've got some survivors built
31:55about the fact that a gentleman stand
31:57at 4 feet to my right was 38 years old,
31:59has six children and a wife to support,
32:01and he got killed instead of made.
32:04The sniper was obviously going left to
32:06right N on the drag picking out targets.
32:09So he was the first one in line
32:12to be targeted,
32:13even as the shooting continued.
32:15Some rush to the aid of others,
32:17risking their own lives.
32:19I ran out and pulled a young
32:22lady off the mall,
32:26a pregnant lady I grabbed.
32:28I grabbed the lady by the ankles and my
32:31my buddy that I was with James Love,
32:33I grabbed her by the.
32:34The rest and we can draw.
32:36It's been said by some that Austin
32:39and in some ways America lost its
32:41innocence of that hot August day.
32:44And for those who were there,
32:45no doubt a summer day never to be forgotten,
32:49Bob Buckaloo gave you knew.
32:53So that's the Texas tower one, and I
32:58think the other video was under leakage.
33:02Give me a SEC.
33:13Tomorrow is the day Day of Retribution.
33:18The day in which I will have my revenge
33:21against humanity, against all of you.
33:25This chilling video shows Elliott Rodger,
33:27the 22 year old Santa Barbara College student
33:31the police say killed 6 and injured 13.
33:34In Friday's mass shooting and stabbing
33:36spree this Day of Retribution of Plan,
33:39Roger outlined in a 137 page manifesto
33:42obtained by seeing an affiliate KEYT.
33:45Roger wrote all of those beautiful girls I've
33:48desired so much of my life but can never
33:51have because they despised and loathed me.
33:54I will destroy a family friend,
33:56Simon Astaire says.
33:57Roger sent his diatribe, called My
34:00Twisted World to a couple dozen people,
34:02including his mother and father,
34:04not long before terrorizing the UC
34:07Santa Barbara campus. He wrote.
34:08I will kill them all and make them suffer,
34:11just as they have made me suffer.
34:12It is only fair.
34:14Roger's mother, Litchin,
34:15discovered the terrifying threat
34:17in her e-mail at 9:17 that evening.
34:20She then discovered her son's last YouTube
34:23video titled Retribution Slaughter.
34:26Every single spoiled stuck
34:29up blind I see inside there.
34:33Lichen then called Rogers father and 911,
34:36the parents frantically racing
34:38to Santa Barbara from LA,
34:40both parents en route, when they heard
34:43the news that they were too late.
34:50One occupant, a male wearing a white shirt,
34:53On Sunday, the ATF and County Sheriff's
34:55Office watched the mother's home.
34:57Astaire says Roger's parents now
34:59feel a pivotal moment was missed.
35:02Last month, 6 police officers conducted
35:04a wellbeing check on Roger in April
35:07after his mother discovered other
35:09videos he posted online documenting
35:11his quote loneliness and misery.
35:13But the officers say they found
35:16nothing alarming during their check.
35:17In his manifesto,
35:18Roger expresses his devastating fear
35:21that police discovered his plan.
35:23I would have been thrown in jail,
35:25denied of the chance to exact
35:27revenge on my enemies.
35:28I can't imagine a hell darker than that,
35:30he wrote a Stair says Roger have
35:33been visiting therapists on and
35:34off since he was eight and in
35:36high school practically daily.
35:38Right before his killing spree,
35:40Roger was seeing 2 therapists.
35:42The stair describing him as
35:44reserved to a daunting degree.
35:46But the stair also says the 22
35:47year old didn't appear to have
35:50violent tendencies and never
35:51expressed any fascination.
35:52And guns,
35:59thank you very much for
36:00doing that. Smart. The
36:07what struck me about that young man is that.
36:12He he obviously fell into an in cell sort
36:17of mindset because he was being rejected,
36:22but he wasn't being rejected
36:24for his looks probably.
36:26He was probably being rejected
36:28for his odd behaviors.
36:30So you can see that people with mental
36:34illness might fall into this category
36:37even though they're not the type
36:39that would be technically you know.
36:42Having an appearance that would reject women.
36:45The other is that, as I mentioned,
36:49people who have trouble forming
36:51bonds with other people are more
36:54likely to fall into this morass.
36:56And people on the autism spectrum tend to
37:00have that as one of their characteristics.
37:03So, you know, maybe he was getting therapy,
37:07but it wasn't the right kind
37:09of therapy to help him.
37:11And with that,
37:12I'll I'll stop and thank you
37:14for your attention and see if
37:17there are any questions.