Dina Burkitbayeva, MBA. February 2024

Transcript

• 00:03All right. So thank you, Chris.
• 00:06As Chris mentioned, I wear,
• 00:09I've been involved in the
• 00:10psychedelic industry in a few ways.
• 00:12So the 1st way I got
• 00:14involved is as an investor,
• 00:16first as an Angel investor.
• 00:18So I was one of the first Angel investors
• 00:21to start supporting the psychedelic space.
• 00:24And you know this was sort of 20/16/2017.
• 00:28And then as the industry grew,
• 00:30I became a venture investor forming my
• 00:33own venture fund called Simon Ventures.
• 00:36It's actually one of a handful of venture
• 00:40funds that we say mushroomed as as the
• 00:44psychedelic boom started and started
• 00:47investing in this very rapidly growing space.
• 00:52And then in 2020,
• 00:53I met Doctor John Crystal doing actually due
• 00:56diligence on another psychedelics company.
• 00:59And then obviously once I learned what
• 01:02incredible work has been done at Yale,
• 01:05I knew that I wanted to be
• 01:06involved in a bigger way.
• 01:07And so Simon incubated Freedom
• 01:10Biosciences and I became acting CEO,
• 01:13transitioning to be full time CEO and
• 01:17eventually leaving as an active kind of
• 01:20fully operating partner at Simon Ventures.
• 01:22So there's there's one other way
• 01:26that I'm involved in the psychedelic
• 01:28space is is I'm doing a very part
• 01:31time PhD at a California Institute
• 01:34of Integral Studies which is a school
• 01:38in in San Francisco which is very
• 01:40different from I would say Yale.
• 01:43And the focus there is really how
• 01:46it it it's it's the first school
• 01:49where they launched the Psychedelic
• 01:51Research Center on Training Therapists.
• 01:53So most of the therapists in the MAPS
• 01:57trials for example are coming out
• 01:59of CIS and it's it's it's a focus
• 02:01more on the kind of the therapy
• 02:03modalities and how to support patients.
• 02:06So it was it was kind of important
• 02:07for me not to just sort of stay
• 02:09at high level on the investing and
• 02:11the operating side,
• 02:12but also sort of what's happening
• 02:15in the room with with a patient and
• 02:18how do patients get supported and
• 02:21how do therapists get trained.
• 02:24So kind of a Broadway that I've been
• 02:27involved in in the psychedelic space.
• 02:29It seems that probably the most
• 02:33helpful topic to cover here is what's
• 02:35happening on the investing side.
• 02:40And I have a few slides prepared here,
• 02:43but then would love to take your
• 02:46questions and and answer those.
• 02:48So some of the slides that I will be showing
• 02:51are those prepared by Simon Adventures,
• 02:54which is which is the fund that I Co founded.
• 02:57Let's see if I can manage to share. While
• 03:02you're pulling those up,
• 03:03could you, for this group,
• 03:04could you define the different?
• 03:06You said you started out as an Angel vest,
• 03:08Angel investor and then you
• 03:09then started the venture front.
• 03:10Could you define
• 03:11those terms? Sure, absolutely.
• 03:14So an Angel investor is someone
• 03:17who's investing personally,
• 03:18not kind of representing a group of
• 03:24investors and not doing it professionally,
• 03:26I would say, right.
• 03:27So an Angel investor is someone who's
• 03:29taking their own money and investing
• 03:31versus a professional investor,
• 03:33someone who would form a fund would
• 03:36need to have certain qualification
• 03:39certifications and then form a a
• 03:42venture fund in this particular
• 03:44instance and pull money from
• 03:47various investors and then do due
• 03:49diligence and invest into companies.
• 03:52Thank
• 03:52you. We're seeing your slides,
• 03:54but we're seeing the presenter view.
• 03:55You may want to swap displays.
• 03:57How do I do that?
• 03:59At the top there's well,
• 04:02go go back to to sharing and there's
• 04:06a swap displays button at the top.
• 04:09Oh, there, there.
• 04:10We're good. Perfect.
• 04:12All right. So I think, you know it's it's no,
• 04:21this is something that we usually cover
• 04:24with with potential investors and I
• 04:27don't think this is news to anyone.
• 04:30But mental health is one of humanity's
• 04:33biggest crises and I think COVID-19 has
• 04:38a kind of contributed to to
• 04:41the growth of this crisis but
• 04:44also putting a spotlight on it.
• 04:46So one thing that I think is usually
• 04:50very interesting for investors to
• 04:52know is that psychedelics, right,
• 04:57are something that have been around
• 05:01for millennia and these have been
• 05:05indigenous practices that were practice
• 05:08across across the world in different
• 05:11pockets of the world and have been
• 05:13big parts of different cultures.
• 05:15So psilocybin and peyote in Mexico,
• 05:19ayahuasca and Peru and and the Amazon
• 05:23and Iboga in Gabon, Africa, right.
• 05:26And so this is something that's
• 05:28usually very interesting for people
• 05:30who are not close to the medicine to
• 05:33know because a lot of the knowledge
• 05:35of psychedelics is more from,
• 05:37you know starting the 40s and
• 05:38the 50s in the Western world.
• 05:43Again, I think this is a group
• 05:45that a lot about this already.
• 05:47So Chris, let me know if we're we
• 05:50should kind of Fast forward from this.
• 05:54You could be be efficient with this but
• 05:56it's efficient. OK.
• 05:59So there's you know the way kind
• 06:02of the investing world looks
• 06:04at it is there's three pockets
• 06:07in within psychedelics, right.
• 06:09There's the, there's the traditional
• 06:11psychedelics which are the
• 06:12five HT two based tryptamines.
• 06:14There's the intactogens such as MDMA
• 06:17and different derivatives of that.
• 06:19And then there is kind
• 06:21of ketamine S ketamine,
• 06:22the NMDA receptor modulators and the
• 06:26psychedelic assisted psychotherapies
• 06:28based on these three kind of groups
• 06:33of molecules are are similar and
• 06:36different in in other ways as well.
• 06:40So I think you know based on
• 06:44what the slide suggesting,
• 06:46there's different,
• 06:48there's different assisted
• 06:50psychotherapy modalities that go
• 06:52with these different molecules
• 06:55and MDMA is one that is due to
• 07:00be approved just a few days ago.
• 07:03It got a priority review from the FDA
• 07:08and you know most likely there will
• 07:11be approval by August of this year.
• 07:14Ketamine and escetamine are
• 07:15obviously already on the market.
• 07:16Ketamine is being administered
• 07:19off label for mood disorders.
• 07:22Esketamine was approved for two
• 07:25indications in 2019 and then sort
• 07:29of the next after MDMA in probably
• 07:33around three years time would be
• 07:37psilocybin assisted psychotherapy
• 07:39that would be approved by the FDA
• 07:42followed by various other programs and
• 07:45there's there's quite a few of them.
• 07:48Again,
• 07:49I think this is something that
• 07:50this group knows very well.
• 07:52We don't have to cover this,
• 07:58so important things here are for for
• 08:02psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, set and
• 08:05setting are very important, and usually
• 08:11this is something that is offered in
• 08:17A single room that's noise insulated.
• 08:21There's one or two psychotherapists
• 08:25or guides that are in the
• 08:28room supporting the patient.
• 08:32There's usually a blindfold and
• 08:34music that's being played, but again,
• 08:38it differs between the different modalities.
• 08:41So this would be something that
• 08:44would be offered with psilocybin
• 08:46and MDMA and not something that's
• 08:50usually required with ketamine,
• 08:52Norse ketamine.
• 08:55So I think just transitioning more over
• 08:59to the topic of sort of how does the
• 09:03investment world look at it, right.
• 09:07So the there's no question about
• 09:12whether this is a large market, right.
• 09:15So as as we already said,
• 09:18mental health is a huge problem right now.
• 09:23And if we were to put dollar
• 09:25amounts right on this,
• 09:27if we had to put dollar amounts on this,
• 09:29each one of these indications is,
• 09:31is a really big potential opportunity
• 09:35for investors, biotech companies
• 09:38and pharma companies to address.
• 09:42So you know,
• 09:45psychedelics are being obviously
• 09:48studied for various mood disorders,
• 09:52but there's also interest and there
• 09:57are studies that are going on for
• 09:59neurodegenerative diseases, pain,
• 10:00traumatic brain injury etcetera.
• 10:04So these are just some of the indications
• 10:08that psychedelics are being considered for.
• 10:10And I think this the the number
• 10:14of indications is due to grow in
• 10:17terms of where investors have been
• 10:20deploying capital and there's around
• 10:23$2 billion plus that's been deployed
• 10:26in psychedelics since I would say
• 10:28around 2017 and $2 billion is,
• 10:32is is obviously a lot of money,
• 10:33but by pharma standards it's
• 10:35it's really not a lot.
• 10:37It's a it's kind of a nascent,
• 10:40very niche industry so far.
• 10:46So you know within psychedelics
• 10:50where investors have been putting
• 10:51in money is a few sectors.
• 10:53Obviously drug discovery,
• 10:55this is by far the largest
• 10:59sector where psychedelics investments
• 11:02have gone. You know you you,
• 11:06you've probably seen this in the headlines.
• 11:08There's some really big companies
• 11:10that have raised hundreds of
• 11:11millions of dollars. Some of these,
• 11:15the largest ones have been Attire,
• 11:17Life Sciences, Compass, Pathways,
• 11:20Siben, Mind Med, etcetera.
• 11:22It takes around you know 4 to 500 million
• 11:27to bring a single drug to approval.
• 11:31So if you look at you know sort of 2 billion
• 11:36or so that's been invested in psychedelics,
• 11:39it it's really not a lot, right.
• 11:41If we kind of say 2 billion
• 11:44has been invested,
• 11:44takes about half a billion to bring a drug
• 11:47to market that covers just about four drugs.
• 11:51But obviously a lot of the capital
• 11:54has gone towards other things
• 11:56than just drug discovery.
• 12:02Drug delivery is also something
• 12:08is is where capital has gone into as
• 12:13well as clinics retreats and telehealth.
• 12:15What we mean by clinics,
• 12:17retreats and telehealth here is
• 12:19primarily has been ketamine clinics.
• 12:21So the number of ketamine clinics
• 12:23has grown 10X between 2015 and now.
• 12:28So in 2015 there were 60 ketamine
• 12:30clinics across the US and now
• 12:33there's over 600 of them.
• 12:35This was primarily driven by actually the
• 12:40discovery that was made by John Crystal,
• 12:42Rob Berman and their collaborators
• 12:43in the late 90s,
• 12:45the Berman 2000 paper that showed
• 12:47that ketamine is an antidepressant
• 12:50in humans and you know,
• 12:53more and more clinics started
• 12:56offering IVIM ketamine for depression.
• 13:00And as Sprobato started moving
• 13:03through the clinic and there was
• 13:06more and more sort of clinical
• 13:08evidence that ketamine is a
• 13:13is is a potent and fast acting
• 13:16antidepressant, individual doctors,
• 13:18most of whom are anesthesiologists,
• 13:21started forming their own
• 13:23private ketamine clinics.
• 13:25And that number has really, really
• 13:27grown fast in the last 8-8 years or so.
• 13:33Obviously retreats is another one.
• 13:35There's many retreats,
• 13:36most of which are outside of the US
• 13:39because a lot of psychedelics are
• 13:40still schedule one are not allowed.
• 13:42But in places like Mexico, Costa Rica,
• 13:46the Netherlands, Portugal,
• 13:49I think there's been a few that
• 13:52have been founded in Spain as well.
• 13:55Telehealth is another one.
• 13:57We've made a few investments
• 14:00in the telehealth space,
• 14:01but this is again primarily around
• 14:06ketamine because that's the only
• 14:10one that's that can be administered
• 14:16via telehealth these days.
• 14:18So there's companies and there's
• 14:21many of these companies that are
• 14:26providing ketamine via mail order.
• 14:29So you can call in, have a, you know,
• 14:34a few minutes conversation with
• 14:36a doctor that will prescribe you
• 14:39ketamine and then a compounding
• 14:41pharmacy will ship that to you.
• 14:44And we have not made actually any any
• 14:48investments into companies like that.
• 14:50We've only supported companies
• 14:53that continue to ask for A to have
• 14:57a relationship with a therapist.
• 15:01There's also companies in
• 15:03the software space that are
• 15:08getting formed around the psychedelic space.
• 15:12These are software companies
• 15:13that are primarily supporting
• 15:15the growing number of clinics.
• 15:17So clinics need EHRSEMRS and other
• 15:21types of support to to do booking,
• 15:25scheduling, etcetera.
• 15:27And there's a few companies that have
• 15:29been formed and are doing quite well.
• 15:31There's obviously education,
• 15:32especially on the therapist front.
• 15:35There's a lot of interest from
• 15:38therapists who would like to work with
• 15:42psychedelic assisted psychotherapy,
• 15:44and there are a few companies
• 15:47that are providing platforms for
• 15:50existing licensed psychotherapy
• 15:52psychotherapists to be trained with
• 15:55ketamine and to start providing
• 15:58ketamine assisted psychotherapy
• 16:00as part of their practice today.
• 16:03And obviously some media companies as well.
• 16:07So this number is, is now more,
• 16:11it's over 2 billion that have
• 16:14been invested now through 2023.
• 16:16And as you can see this is a number
• 16:20that's you know that just exploded.
• 16:23If we're looking at around
• 16:2510 million in 2017,
• 16:26this grew to you know 6700 million in 2021.
• 16:35So the interest has been really tremendous.
• 16:39So
• 16:42you know I think what it is not really
• 16:47a surprise to this group but a lot of
• 16:50times when we speak at with investors
• 16:54assignment people usually equate
• 16:56or you know they find similarities
• 17:00between psychedelics and cannabis.
• 17:03And we have to make the point
• 17:06that the psychedelic therapeutics
• 17:08that we support through the fund
• 17:12and there's a huge industry built
• 17:15around are the are the teams that
• 17:20are taking psychedelics through FDA
• 17:23approval rather than having it be a
• 17:26recreational for recreational use right.
• 17:28And so this is
• 17:35just sort of a graphic to show based
• 17:38on where a a drug developer is,
• 17:41what the probability of of
• 17:44of their approval could be.
• 17:46And this is obviously across
• 17:48industries and in different companies,
• 17:50but kind of gives you an understanding
• 17:54a lot of the psychedelic,
• 17:57the there's there's sort of three
• 18:00waves of psychedelic drug development
• 18:03companies that we've identified.
• 18:06The first ones are obviously the
• 18:09ones that came first and it's it's
• 18:12companies such as Compass Pathways where
• 18:15they take an existing compound that
• 18:18they synthesize such as psilocybin.
• 18:21There is there's some IP that
• 18:23can be built around that,
• 18:25but it's it's really around kind
• 18:28of this existing first generation
• 18:33psychedelic drug that they're developing
• 18:36and trying to take through the FDA.
• 18:39There was a second and there still is.
• 18:43There still are companies that are
• 18:45being built and programs that are
• 18:47being developed in the second wave.
• 18:49And the 2nd wave is basically derivatives
• 18:52of these existing psychedelics.
• 18:57And these most of the time are new
• 18:59compound entities and they live in sort
• 19:02of this drug discovery preclinical space.
• 19:05A few of the companies,
• 19:06oops apologize,
• 19:10a few of these companies have now
• 19:13are now in phase one.
• 19:17But there were you know 10s of
• 19:21thousands of molecules that were
• 19:24derivatives of these existing
• 19:26psychedelics created in in in the last,
• 19:31I would say 6 or so years.
• 19:33And just a few of these new compound
• 19:36entities are now in phase one.
• 19:37We're very excited to see sort of
• 19:40where those go And there's the third
• 19:46wave of psychedelics is and those
• 19:50are non holosinogenic psychedelics.
• 19:53Those could be combos or
• 19:56new compound entities.
• 19:57And there's a lot of interest
• 20:00currently in the non holosinogenic
• 20:02psychedelics that are hoping to take
• 20:04advantage of the neurogenesis but
• 20:06sort of engineer out the side effects.
• 20:09And you know sitting where I sit
• 20:12and having spoken to various
• 20:15investors including those from sort
• 20:17of you know strategic large pharma,
• 20:20venture arms,
• 20:21business development arms as well
• 20:23as large biotech healthcare funds.
• 20:25There is a lot of interest in non
• 20:29hallucinogenic psychedelics because
• 20:31that would comply more with the
• 20:33the large pharma model of you know
• 20:36people being able to take a drug,
• 20:38a pill a day and and not sort
• 20:44of have to incur the burdensome
• 20:47administration and the cost of needing
• 20:49to go into a clinic and doing kind
• 20:52of the the the treatment session
• 20:53with with the holosynogenic trip.
• 21:00I think we've talked about this already.
• 21:04These are just some of the
• 21:07examples of the various clinics and
• 21:11retreats that are that are that have
• 21:15been formed in the space and these
• 21:19companies are continuing to grow and
• 21:22their numbers are increasing as well.
• 21:25However, one thing that I will say
• 21:29is that the funding sure let me
• 21:35stop sharing the funding in the
• 21:38psychedelic space has been very
• 21:40challenging in the last two plus years.
• 21:42I think this is in line
• 21:44with what's happening,
• 21:45you know across biotech,
• 21:48the biotech winter that started probably
• 21:52late fall of 2021 and is definitely
• 21:58affected psychedelics therapeutics as well.
• 22:00So those numbers of investment
• 22:02that you've seen,
• 22:03they kind of hit a peak in 2021 and
• 22:06they've been on the decline in 22 and 23.
• 22:13Yeah. I I'm wondering, I know
• 22:16we're about halfway through now
• 22:20if there's anything that's more
• 22:24of interest that I can go into.
• 22:28Maybe we can start out by a few
• 22:30people have questions or reactions
• 22:32to what you've shared up till now
• 22:34about the overview you've given,
• 22:35which was really helpful.
• 22:36We can start there and then we can
• 22:39open it up more broadly for anything
• 22:41else folks want to talk about.
• 22:45I mean I'll start with a question
• 22:48just to get things going which is
• 22:51the something that's kind of unique
• 22:53about this space relative to other
• 22:55drug developments is some this
• 22:57development space is that some of
• 22:59the early big players have been non
• 23:02profits Usona and MAPS obviously are
• 23:04what I'm thinking about and I wonder
• 23:06if you can that which is weird right.
• 23:08The idea of a non profit pharmaceutical
• 23:10company or having a non profit bring
• 23:12a drug try to bring a drug through to
• 23:15approval And and I wonder if you can
• 23:17speak to what that what that means what
• 23:18it does to the space and then what
• 23:20what challenges they've had because I
• 23:21know that hasn't been smooth as they
• 23:22try to scale up into phase three.
• 23:25Sure absolutely.
• 23:26So actually yes, absolutely.
• 23:29So MAPS is you know is a is a non
• 23:36profit that they then kind of
• 23:39created APBC that did a lot of
• 23:42the development for MDMA for PTSD
• 23:46and now it's Lichas Therapeutics
• 23:49that has been formed as a fully
• 23:52for profit company right because
• 23:54of the enormous capital demands
• 23:59that this would take and they
• 24:01recently closed $100 million round
• 24:03that would focus on helping get
• 24:05the NDA and then commercialize
• 24:07the drug I mean Usona as well.
• 24:11And actually one thing to note is
• 24:14that COMPASS Pathways actually formed
• 24:16as a non profit as well in 2017 and
• 24:19then it was and then it was converted
• 24:22to for profit in a year or so.
• 24:24And I think it it,
• 24:26it makes sense because while Rig Doblin
• 24:30and MAPS were able to do it but it
• 24:33took them more than 30 years to get here.
• 24:36MDMA started being developed in the late 80s,
• 24:39right.
• 24:39And what they've done is,
• 24:41is just tremendous and incredible and
• 24:44they've pioneered the space in many ways.
• 24:46But it's it's just incredibly
• 24:48difficult to raise hundreds of millions
• 24:51of dollars like I said that that
• 24:54that are required for development.
• 24:56So ultimately I think if we wanted
• 24:59to if if you want to move fast which
• 25:03many drug development companies do,
• 25:08you need to be a for profit company.
• 25:10So you can be raising these amounts
• 25:12of capital. The reason why you want,
• 25:14the primary reason why you want to be
• 25:16moving fast is obviously to get the
• 25:19drug to patients as soon as possible.
• 25:21And being a schedule one drug,
• 25:22it's hard for patients to get access
• 25:25to it in a kind of legal Safeway.
• 25:28But the other reason is patent life, right?
• 25:31Patent life is so important,
• 25:33but patents are only granted for 20 years.
• 25:36And usually because it takes companies
• 25:38about 10 to 12 years to get to approval,
• 25:41You have, you know,
• 25:43at best companies are left with 810
• 25:46years of patent life during which
• 25:48they're able to recoup the investment
• 25:51that they've made for development.
• 25:53And so, you know,
• 25:55every few months means hundreds of
• 25:57millions of dollars potentially if you're
• 26:00a very successful drug and patent life.
• 26:03So you know,
• 26:04companies want to move as fast as possible.
• 26:06They're trying to get to market
• 26:10as as as soon as they can.
• 26:12So I guess the answer to my answer to
• 26:17this question is that it's it's just been
• 26:20incredible what MAPS has been able to do.
• 26:23But I think it's it's almost impossible to
• 26:29think to to be able to do this in in now.
• 26:35And one of the reasons and this is
• 26:38something that we've seen in the
• 26:40last two to three years as a drug
• 26:43development company at Freedom is
• 26:46that because so much capital has been
• 26:49raised between 2020 and 2022 by drug
• 26:52development companies because you know
• 26:54there's been so much capital being
• 26:58invested in biotech during those years,
• 27:01the cost of development has
• 27:04gone up significantly.
• 27:05So if you, you know,
• 27:07I don't have the exact numbers,
• 27:08but I would say that CRO costs
• 27:13and other vendors in the drug
• 27:16development space have significantly
• 27:17increased their prices just because
• 27:19there was inflation of course.
• 27:21But also there was a lot more
• 27:24biotech funding which has kind of
• 27:28you know disturbed the demand supply
• 27:33with CR OS which made it even more
• 27:37expensive to to bring drugs to market.
• 27:39I think it's coming down now as the
• 27:42funding hasn't been as as available,
• 27:45but that's definitely something that's
• 27:47that's been a problem for smaller
• 27:49biotechs in the last few years.
• 27:56Chris I don't know if that did
• 27:57that answer your question.
• 27:59Yeah it did it did and it's it it
• 28:00is interesting to see how you know
• 28:02they did both both maps and then
• 28:03more recently Usona you know did
• 28:05did did so well on the nonprofit
• 28:07model and then kind of hit a wall
• 28:09when they when the the capital needs
• 28:11became greater as you as you planned.
• 28:14Yeah.
• 28:17Shouldn't you, you mentioned that
• 28:19non hallucinogenic psychedelics
• 28:21is an area where
• 28:22people you know investors are interested
• 28:24or or you know optimistic about
• 28:27potential treatments. Are there other
• 28:29areas that have come up with
• 28:31in your interactions with
• 28:32investors either as far as the
• 28:34clinical population or the mechanism that
• 28:36people have you know people have been more
• 28:39excited about of of late.
• 28:42Yeah you know it's interesting it's it's
• 28:46sort of like ebbs and flows and I would
• 28:49say like as probably in many industries
• 28:54like venture tends to be kind of fatty
• 28:59where you know something is is is
• 29:01really attractive and everyone kind of
• 29:03like runs to that And you know then if
• 29:06there was if there was sort of some
• 29:09disappointment there then everyone
• 29:11turns away and goes somewhere else.
• 29:13But there's there's been a few of these
• 29:16waves in psychedelics you know the the
• 29:20two latest ones that I that come to mind
• 29:23is the non hallucinogenic psychedelics.
• 29:25There's there's was a lot of excitement
• 29:28there still continues to be and sort
• 29:30of right now I think everyone's
• 29:32just sort of sitting and waiting
• 29:33to see what actually shakes out.
• 29:35I think there's the constant
• 29:37question that I get is basically,
• 29:40do you need the holosinogenic effect,
• 29:42right, for psychedelics to be effective?
• 29:44Like can you have a non holosinogenic
• 29:46psychedelic and it will still give
• 29:48you the antidepressant effect.
• 29:50And I think certain groups say yes,
• 29:52other groups say no,
• 29:53and it's just sort of a waiting
• 29:56game to see how how this shakes out.
• 29:59The second one that got a lot of excitement,
• 30:04but I think the investment
• 30:06community's feeling less
• 30:10certainty about now is the
• 30:13five MEODMT drug, right.
• 30:15So I mean I think the excitement
• 30:19started in mid 2021 when a
• 30:23company called GH Research,
• 30:26which is an Ireland based company
• 30:29seemingly came out of nowhere
• 30:31and had kind of an explosive
• 30:36debut on the IPO markets.
• 30:39They raised the substantial Series
• 30:42B and then they went public a few
• 30:46months later at a billion dollar
• 30:49valuation and all they had was
• 30:52an inhalable 5 MEODMT phase one
• 30:58study with eight patients, right.
• 31:02And so I mean, I think part of it
• 31:06speaks to kind of the fluffiness
• 31:09of of the public markets in 2021,
• 31:14but also to the excitement around
• 31:16psychedelics and five MEODMT in particular.
• 31:18The reason I think 5 people and
• 31:20investors were especially excited about
• 31:225 MEODMT is because yes the data was
• 31:25interesting for those eight patients,
• 31:28but also it was a short acting drug, right.
• 31:32So you know people sort of said listen,
• 31:35if this can have comparable effects
• 31:37to psilocybin which is 6 potentially
• 31:408 hours and you need 2 therapists.
• 31:43Maybe you can get a similar effect
• 31:45with a 2030 minute treatment where you
• 31:47know you would have someone in the
• 31:50room but it's not like you know the,
• 31:53you know, the patient would really
• 31:55be able to have a cohesive therapy
• 31:58session because clearly you know it's a,
• 32:01it's a, it's a very intense experience
• 32:03with five MEODMT.
• 32:05And so there was, there was,
• 32:08there was and continues to be excitement
• 32:11around 5 MEODMT and see sort of can
• 32:14this be an effective treatment.
• 32:16And I think the question around
• 32:215 MEODMT now is well,
• 32:23is the experience too intense
• 32:25for the patient
• 32:28and you know what sort of what
• 32:32the corresponding AES be and can
• 32:35this really come come to market
• 32:38and be an effective treatment.
• 32:39Unfortunately since then GH
• 32:41research has been on clinical hold
• 32:45and you know we'll we'll sort of just
• 32:49have to wait and see whether whether
• 32:51this program is going to move forward.
• 32:53There are, there are other programs.
• 32:56There are other other psychedelic
• 32:58biotech companies that are continuing
• 33:01to develop 5 MEODMT Beckley Sci Tech,
• 33:03which is one of the investments out
• 33:05of Cym Adventures that is beginning
• 33:10phase two with five MEODMT and
• 33:13has recently received a 50 million
• 33:16investment from a Thai Life Sciences,
• 33:19which is another investment
• 33:21from Cym Adventures.
• 33:22So yeah, those are sort of the two
• 33:27interests from psychedelics
• 33:29investors at the moment.
• 33:32I would say that the biotech and I'm,
• 33:37I mean sort of the larger biotech funds
• 33:40have been looking at psychedelics for,
• 33:44for a few years now.
• 33:47Some of these large funds have
• 33:50already started deploying capital.
• 33:52Some of the bigger names
• 33:53such as you know RA Capital,
• 33:56Boston based I think 4 billion
• 33:59plus under management fund has
• 34:01made a few investments right.
• 34:03They've invested in Daleks
• 34:05Therapeutics which is the non
• 34:08hallucinogenic NCE Portfolio Co
• 34:12founded by David Olson from UC Davis.
• 34:16They also invested in GH Research
• 34:18which is the company that had the phase
• 34:21one data with five MEODMT and they
• 34:24even at some point incubated company
• 34:27inside RA Capital called Lusaris.
• 34:30I don't think they could make the PK work.
• 34:33In the end the company was disassembled
• 34:35but that is all to say that there are
• 34:38large biotech funds that are investing
• 34:41in in psychedelic therapeutics
• 34:44and doing so pretty actively.
• 34:47If you're interested in sort of what
• 34:50the that larger list of investors is,
• 34:52I would suggest going and looking up
• 34:54who invested in Compass pathways latest
• 34:56round which happened just a few months ago.
• 35:00I think they raised about 200
• 35:02million and that has a pretty
• 35:04impressive list of investors.
• 35:06So it's definitely not so fringe anymore.
• 35:19Any other questions,
• 35:22meaning you made reference
• 35:23to the biotech winter of 2021,
• 35:26which sounded chilly,
• 35:29but and it you implied
• 35:30it was sort of a broader,
• 35:31not a psychedelic specific thing,
• 35:33but a broader fluctuation and
• 35:35enthusiasm in the space.
• 35:36What is, can you tell us just
• 35:38a little bit about that without
• 35:39progressing too much? Sure.
• 35:42I mean I think in 2022,
• 35:45which was really kind of the coldest
• 35:47of the winter of the biotech winter,
• 35:50the biotech index, right,
• 35:52which was kind of they take 100
• 35:56or so biotech companies that are
• 36:00public and create an index of that.
• 36:02I think at some point that index was down 70,
• 36:05potentially 80%,
• 36:06meaning that you know the public
• 36:10companies were trading significantly
• 36:12lower than they were in 2020 and 2021.
• 36:17I mean there are obviously some individual
• 36:20reasons like individual to company.
• 36:21Certain companies weren't reading
• 36:23out very strong data or some
• 36:26other individual company news.
• 36:29But I think the overall
• 36:31trends were the following.
• 36:32The first thing is there was
• 36:34a huge overcorrection, right?
• 36:36In 2020 and 20, 21,
• 36:39there was so much capital in the
• 36:44markets because there was so much new
• 36:48money being printed that that flooded
• 36:50the market with all this new capital.
• 36:53You know,
• 36:54funds were able to raise and then
• 36:56they were actively deploying.
• 36:59And when there's a lot of
• 37:01new money that's available,
• 37:02the companies tend to balloon in value,
• 37:06right.
• 37:06And so many companies were going public,
• 37:08they were going public at valuations
• 37:12that were likely higher than what
• 37:15the market sustainably could,
• 37:17could, could, could have them at.
• 37:21And so there was an overcorrection.
• 37:23And you know,
• 37:23even when all of this was happening,
• 37:25investors continued saying you know
• 37:27these valuations are too high,
• 37:28the market's too hot,
• 37:30but people continue to invest and and
• 37:34basically further heating up the market.
• 37:37And So what happened in late
• 37:382021 is that eventually the the,
• 37:42the valuation started coming down
• 37:45and and that overcorrection was
• 37:47quite fast and it it was very
• 37:50painful for many public companies.
• 37:52It took about six months or so.
• 37:55There's usually a lag,
• 37:57right,
• 37:57between what's happening in the public
• 37:59markets to how that affects and
• 38:03reflects on the private company's valuations.
• 38:09And you know,
• 38:11the public markets in 2020 and 21 were hot.
• 38:15They were,
• 38:15you know,
• 38:16trading at high valuations And
• 38:17then private companies that were
• 38:19raising capital that were saying,
• 38:20hey, you know,
• 38:21if similar company just went public,
• 38:24this devaluation let's say is a
• 38:26billion dollars. I am similar.
• 38:28I'm going to raise money private
• 38:31capital at a similar evaluation.
• 38:34And they were sort of being able
• 38:37to benchmark against the private,
• 38:39the public market valuations.
• 38:41And so when the public markets went
• 38:44down about six months or so later,
• 38:47the private valuation started
• 38:49coming down significantly as well.
• 38:52I think the the private valuations
• 38:54went down even further because
• 38:57investors started favouring buying the
• 39:00cheaper stock which was fully liquid,
• 39:03right.
• 39:03If you're an investor and you have a
• 39:05dollar and you can buy a dollar that
• 39:07you can invest in the public markets,
• 39:08that's fully liquid,
• 39:09right.
• 39:10You could go and sell it tomorrow
• 39:12versus tying up that same dollar in
• 39:14a private company which may never
• 39:17go public right and may go down,
• 39:21may may go down under
• 39:23or it would be tied up for 10 years.
• 39:26Even if the company were to
• 39:28be eventually successful,
• 39:29the investors are starting really
• 39:32favouring buying the public
• 39:34stock over the private stock.
• 39:35And so this is what sort of
• 39:39further made funding difficult
• 39:42for private companies as well.
• 39:47We're seeing a light at the
• 39:48end of the tunnel after these
• 39:50sort of two almost 2 1/2 years.
• 39:52I think there's there's a few
• 39:55things that happened in the last two
• 39:58months that are very encouraging.
• 40:00There were a few really large
• 40:03acquisitions in the neuro psych space.
• 40:05So ABB Vie bought Cerebell for 8.7
• 40:10billion in December and then BMS
• 40:14acquired Corona for 14 billion, right?
• 40:18And so?
• 40:19These are really large acquisitions
• 40:21in the neurosite space and that's
• 40:23been just encouraging to see
• 40:26that M&A activity is picking up.
• 40:29Another thing that happened is
• 40:32that you know can be considered
• 40:34this opening of the IPO markets.
• 40:36If if you look at the last sort
• 40:38of 18 to 24 months,
• 40:39almost no companies have been
• 40:41going public just because there's,
• 40:43you know, even if they do go public,
• 40:45there's probably not going to
• 40:46be many investors who are buying
• 40:48the stock or trading the stock.
• 40:50So,
• 40:50but just two weeks ago one of my
• 40:54investments from Cy Med Alta Neuroscience,
• 40:57which is a Stanford neuroscience
• 41:00company went public and you know
• 41:02has done decently well and there
• 41:03have been a few other IPOs that
• 41:05are outside of the neuroscience
• 41:07space but in biotech.
• 41:08So we're seeing these as very positive
• 41:11signals that the markets are opening
• 41:14up and probably more investment
• 41:16is going to be going into this.
• 41:19However,
• 41:19you know both kind of CE OS and teams
• 41:23of biotechs as well as investors
• 41:25are not expecting anything as sort
• 41:29of active and hot as it was in
• 41:322020 and 21 in the near future.
• 41:37Thanks.
• 41:40I have a quick question.
• 41:41Yep. Thank you so much.
• 41:42Dina, some say that the current
• 41:44model of psychedelic assistant
• 41:46therapy are too complex and costly
• 41:48and need a lot of infrastructure.
• 41:50And so that even if they are to be approved,
• 41:55it would be really hard to implement
• 41:59them widely and make them accessible.
• 42:02What's your opinion on that?
• 42:04You know, as an investor,
• 42:05can we make them accessible,
• 42:07easily accessible to everyone?
• 42:09Yeah, That's a great question.
• 42:11Thank you so much.
• 42:12I think it really depends on the
• 42:15modality in the protocol, right.
• 42:17So I think the most burdensome
• 42:21protocols are that of MDMA and
• 42:24psilocybin assisted psychotherapy.
• 42:25The reason why I say that it's,
• 42:27you know, 6 to 8 hours.
• 42:29You need a single room and you need,
• 42:33you may need up to two therapists,
• 42:35right, Or like a therapist and a
• 42:37guide for the whole day in addition
• 42:40to also therapy sessions in
• 42:44between the administration, right.
• 42:46So that's kind of the most burdensome
• 42:49protocol that I I think will exist.
• 42:53However, at the same time you look
• 42:56at sort of what are the options
• 42:58like what do people with treatment
• 43:01resistant depression or untreatable
• 43:03PTSD have available to them?
• 43:06If you look at PTSD,
• 43:07there's no approved treatment
• 43:08as far as I understand, right.
• 43:10MDMA would be the first FDA
• 43:13approved treatment for PTSD.
• 43:14It's not like there's some other
• 43:16easy way to treat this and then
• 43:18all of a sudden this is you know,
• 43:21the only other available treatment.
• 43:23So and for treatment resistant depression,
• 43:26if you know we're already talking about
• 43:29patients who are you know their other,
• 43:32their other options are ketamine S,
• 43:37ketamine, TMSECT,
• 43:39all of which are pretty burdensome, right.
• 43:41So this is a patient population that
• 43:43has failed other treatments and is
• 43:46probably in in need of some pretty,
• 43:49you know, big interventions.
• 43:51So it might push
• 43:53back to that as they're all reimbursable.
• 43:55Sorry, I said, my push back to that
• 43:57is all of those are reimbursed.
• 44:00I think it's the reimbursement model.
• 44:02The reimbursement model
• 44:03is what determines whether a patient
• 44:05can get care, not access well,
• 44:06not physical accessibility
• 44:09because once it's paid for,
• 44:11it'll be paid for.
• 44:12My push back to that is TMSECTS,
• 44:15ketamine and ketamine.
• 44:16You'll get some
• 44:18version of reimbursement.
• 44:18So it's a piggyback off of that.
• 44:21My question is, is there
• 44:23scope for these for is, is,
• 44:25is the reimbursement model
• 44:27being investigated, I guess in
• 44:29tandem with the investments?
• 44:33Sure. So I I think what you're
• 44:36saying is if psilocybin MDMA
• 44:40get insurance reimbursement
• 44:43then you know that determines
• 44:45accessibility to patients, correct.
• 44:47It doesn't matter how burdensome,
• 44:49the like the REMS and Sprovata
• 44:50is the most burdensome
• 44:51ever, but we get it done
• 44:53because you get it paid for.
• 44:55So even if you have the two therapists,
• 44:57if it's reimbursed, then you can
• 44:59give it to a patient. So I think,
• 45:01yeah, I think I'll agree with you that
• 45:03if the reimbursement makes it easier,
• 45:04right, at least financially.
• 45:06But actually one of the biggest
• 45:08bottlenecks that I see for
• 45:10psilocybin and MDMA is actually
• 45:12the availability of therapists.
• 45:14There's not going to be enough
• 45:16therapists if if the FDA requires
• 45:19A licensed therapist or two,
• 45:21no matter how much pair reimbursement is,
• 45:24there's just not going to be
• 45:26enough therapist to do the work.
• 45:28So I think there's there's
• 45:29a few things at play.
• 45:30I have completely agree with you that
• 45:32reimbursement will help accessibility,
• 45:34but it's not.
• 45:35It's not the only thing that stands between
• 45:39like being able to have it and not.
• 45:42I think what the other point that
• 45:43I was trying to make is sort of
• 45:45like MDMA and psilocybin's probably
• 45:47the most burdensome protocols.
• 45:49And then it kind of I think where
• 45:52the industry in in terms of biotech,
• 45:54right,
• 45:55drug developers as well as investors
• 45:57in the psychedelic space are
• 45:59they understand that the easier
• 46:01we make the protocol,
• 46:03the less burdensome the protocol,
• 46:05the more likely it is to to be adopted,
• 46:11right.
• 46:11And so there's there are many programs
• 46:15now that are trying to shorten the,
• 46:19the trips,
• 46:20right.
• 46:21So there are now multiple programs in
• 46:24phase one that are that have a derivative
• 46:27of psilocybin that is only 2-3 hours,
• 46:30right.
• 46:31So can you have a comparable
• 46:34experience and effect?
• 46:35But then instead of needing only
• 46:37being able to do one session a
• 46:40week with these two therapists,
• 46:42you could do 2 sessions.
• 46:44So you could be treating twice
• 46:46as many patients.
• 46:47The non hallucinogenic psychedelics, right?
• 46:49Can you entirely get rid of the R.E.M.
• 46:52so people can, you know,
• 46:54just just take a pill and it will work?
• 46:57Yeah.
• 46:58I mean,
• 46:58here's this is something that I've
• 47:01personally thought a lot about as
• 47:03an investor and ultimately what led
• 47:05me to want to start Freedom Bio,
• 47:07right.
• 47:07I I do believe that other other
• 47:13molecules like psilocybin can can
• 47:16be therapeutically efficacious.
• 47:18But I always had a concern about
• 47:21can they ultimately be accessible
• 47:23to a large patient population,
• 47:25right, If they're approved,
• 47:27even if they get insurance,
• 47:29reimbursement is still so burdensome
• 47:33and expensive that they might not have,
• 47:35you know,
• 47:36the number of therapists or the
• 47:38infrastructure like clinics to do it.
• 47:40So that's why we focused on ketamine,
• 47:44right, and what we do at Freedom Buy.
• 47:45And this is based on Chatty
• 47:48Abdullah's study from I think
• 47:50it was 2019 and the paper that
• 47:53was published in 2020 is that
• 47:55the combination of ketamine and
• 47:57rapamycin extends the efficacy of
• 47:59ketamine to potentially 2 to 3 weeks.
• 48:01So for a patient rather than
• 48:02needing to come in twice a
• 48:04week for ketamine as ketamine,
• 48:06they could potentially only come come
• 48:07in every two to three weeks, right.
• 48:10And the model there is, is a lot more,
• 48:14it allows for a much higher throughput,
• 48:17right, of patients.
• 48:18You have one large room,
• 48:20You have, you know, I don't know,
• 48:245-6 patients in one room.
• 48:26You have one medical provider who can,
• 48:30who can kind of monitor everyone.
• 48:32And then if you wanted to be
• 48:34really efficient about it,
• 48:35potentially you could have what,
• 48:363-4 cohorts a day.
• 48:39So I think there's different
• 48:42models that that could work.
• 48:47The other thing that I think I remind
• 48:50investors is spravato is it hit a
• 48:53billion dollars in ARR and is expected
• 48:55to be a blockbuster this year, right.
• 48:58So they would make a billion dollars in
• 49:01revenue to hit a billion dollars in revenue,
• 49:03the only need to treat 50,000 patients,
• 49:0850,000 patients is point O 5% of the entire
• 49:13treatment resistant depressed populations,
• 49:15point O 5%.
• 49:16So when investors come to me and they
• 49:18say can you compete with Sprovato,
• 49:21like how are you.
• 49:22I was like I don't need
• 49:24to compete with Sprovato.
• 49:25Psilocybin is not going to
• 49:27need to compete with Sprovato.
• 49:29The mark,
• 49:30the the problem is so big,
• 49:32there's so many patients that
• 49:34don't have treatment that like we
• 49:36can have another thousand similar
• 49:39treatments approved and everyone
• 49:41can be a billion dollar drug.
• 49:43And so I just,
• 49:44I really love what you know,
• 49:46Yale's been doing and Yale's been
• 49:48working on because this problem
• 49:50is just so big and we really need
• 49:54treatments at work and they can,
• 49:56like I said,
• 49:57I believe we can have another
• 49:58thousand treatments and they
• 49:59can all be successful.
• 50:04Dina, it's it's Jerry.
• 50:05How how are you?
• 50:06Hi, Jerry, I, I do just want to
• 50:09go back a little bit with the,
• 50:11the idea of access though.
• 50:13And it seems like you're sort of
• 50:16diminishing the need for reimbursement
• 50:20which for 95% of people is so critical.
• 50:26Patients just can't get these
• 50:29treatments without coverage.
• 50:33And and I don't know how much that's been
• 50:37thought of in the process in terms of
• 50:41thinking about the actual implementation.
• 50:44I mean it's one thing if a drug works
• 50:45and you know there are perfect examples
• 50:47where there are gene therapies that
• 50:48work 100% but nobody can afford them,
• 50:50so nobody gets them.
• 50:52And you know example here is how
• 50:56how much has the implementation,
• 50:58the cost of implementation been
• 51:00built into the the models,
• 51:03the business models because I I
• 51:05don't know if we can absorb another
• 51:08thousand of these treatments.
• 51:09The the insurers are panicking
• 51:12even with something like bravado
• 51:14how expensive this could be if
• 51:16you open the lid on it you know
• 51:18it'll it'll break the insurance
• 51:19companies they they can't afford
• 51:21to cover all of this is the is the
• 51:24implementation cost being considered
• 51:28And by implementation costs do you
• 51:29mean the fact that like you need to
• 51:32reimburse nurses time and then therapist
• 51:34time and then build new infrastructure
• 51:36like individual rooms. Exactly
• 51:38that was. I mean the the there was
• 51:40a lot of reasons why the delay in in
• 51:44Spervato's uptake I think came yeah
• 51:47that took almost four years to get
• 51:49to the point where it was gonna be a
• 51:52blockbuster almost and partly 'cause
• 51:53it launched into an infrastructure
• 51:55that just wasn't prepared. They didn't.
• 51:58The Jansen just didn't understand that,
• 52:01yeah, the drug was covered,
• 52:02but the delivery,
• 52:03if it wasn't so nobody could
• 52:06figure out how to actually provide
• 52:08the treatment and get real.
• 52:10So how how much effort is going into
• 52:12thinking about the delivery part
• 52:14because that's the real expense.
• 52:16I mean for ketamine,
• 52:17if you do it in a place like
• 52:19the Ellen even hospital,
• 52:20it's almost $1000 per treatment.
• 52:23Just in terms of the hospital charges,
• 52:26the and and the professional fees.
• 52:30Is that being considered,
• 52:31you know, I, I well,
• 52:33I I mean I know I'm in the
• 52:34space but how much is that being
• 52:35considered in the development plan?
• 52:38Yeah,
• 52:41it's it's hard to say because
• 52:46payers aren't not really entering,
• 52:48they're not really participating
• 52:49in these conversations right now.
• 52:51I'm sure they're, you know,
• 52:52they're having isolated conversations,
• 52:54especially now that you know a lot
• 52:56of them covers spirivato and it's
• 52:58interesting to hear your perspective
• 53:00that you're saying they're already
• 53:01panicking about how expensive it is.
• 53:03It is very expensive.
• 53:05It's 20 to $50,000 per year
• 53:09for Spirivato patients.
• 53:11And you know obviously there
• 53:13are hurdles to jump through for
• 53:16patients to qualify for Spirivato.
• 53:18My guess is that if they're covering it,
• 53:21that means that the alternative right is,
• 53:25is, is more expensive,
• 53:27right having this patient have a
• 53:29lot of comorbidities and needing
• 53:31hospitalizations and whatever
• 53:32else comes with the treatment
• 53:35resistant depressed patient.
• 53:36And I think you know,
• 53:38it's it's hard to know what those
• 53:41economics look like because I
• 53:42think only payers have them.
• 53:45The way the biotech companies think about it,
• 53:50at least from the ones that I've
• 53:53spoken with is that these patients
• 53:55that are not being treated are
• 53:58very expensive to the healthcare
• 54:00system and to payers.
• 54:01And so payers believe that
• 54:04this patient would eventually,
• 54:07you know,
• 54:07be cheaper and it's horrible to sound,
• 54:09but that's how they think about patients,
• 54:11right.
• 54:12If they're being treated with Spirivato
• 54:14and it's kind of unpredictable 20,
• 54:17$1000 a year expense and but they're
• 54:19not paying for all the other issues
• 54:22that are aggravating that that
• 54:24that's probably that something that
• 54:27financially makes sense to the payer.
• 54:32You know, I think if you look at sort
• 54:34of what's available in fourth line,
• 54:37right, 'cause this, these are the
• 54:39patients that we're talking about
• 54:41that have failed at least two to
• 54:44three antidepressants right now,
• 54:45what's available to them is ketamine
• 54:47S ketamine, which you know,
• 54:48we've said is very expensive.
• 54:50Then there's TMS, right,
• 54:52which is also in the sort of I think
• 54:5420 to 30,000 range, and then ECT,
• 55:00which has pretty severe side effects.
• 55:03So we're talking about a patient
• 55:05population that's that doesn't
• 55:06have a lot of options right now
• 55:07and is very expensive
• 55:12Then I completely agree.
• 55:13I mean, the pharmaco economics is
• 55:15gonna drive this to a large extent.
• 55:17So are people using like the
• 55:19NICE model and stuff like that?
• 55:20Because you know,
• 55:22this is gonna have a big thing like
• 55:23the National Institute of Health
• 55:25and Clinical Excellence model.
• 55:26I mean, this is what's gonna determine
• 55:30whether third party payers
• 55:31actually want to pay for it or not.
• 55:33So people are thinking about that
• 55:34'cause it's one thing it doesn't work,
• 55:36but the other, is it affordable.
• 55:38And it sounds like there
• 55:41there is some thought to this,
• 55:43but it sounds like maybe not enough
• 55:46attention being paid to the payers
• 55:49cause healthcare, especially U.S.
• 55:51healthcare, is so unique where
• 55:53the patient doesn't pay for it.
• 55:55Ultimately at some level they do,
• 55:56but the person who's paying for it is
• 55:58a third party payer in the most case.
• 56:00And it, it may be the best thing
• 56:02in the world for the patient,
• 56:04but they're not the one who's
• 56:07paying the bill.
• 56:08So I it sounds like there's some work
• 56:10but maybe not as much as we'd all
• 56:13like to see communication with the
• 56:14actual payers asking what they would pay for.
• 56:20Yes, I think I think that's that's
• 56:22really the case and they're not really
• 56:24going to have a communication with
• 56:26you until you're an approved drug
• 56:28and they see your phase three data
• 56:32and they see a long term data and
• 56:35then they can sort of make you know
• 56:38make some conclusions off of that.
• 56:41You know I I know the biotech
• 56:43companies are trying to have
• 56:44those conversations but they're
• 56:46not really being you know met but
• 56:49but NICE has its, I mean for example NICE
• 56:52has its outline pretty clearly published.
• 56:55So you can you can get a sense of what
• 56:57how they're going to value these are
• 56:59are the investors looking at these and
• 57:02considering that as part of their thing,
• 57:04you know is it meeting the nice
• 57:06criteria for for approval And
• 57:10yeah
• 57:12I I don't know the exact
• 57:14answer to to that question.
• 57:16I know that maps when they were
• 57:20as they've been thinking about
• 57:22how to price the drug versus how
• 57:25to price the the psychotherapy.
• 57:27They've definitely done a lot of
• 57:29modeling on this end and they sort
• 57:32of landed on a range of what the
• 57:35medicine and the psychotherapy could
• 57:37could could be, could be right.
• 57:42But what I think their next step
• 57:44would be is to get approval at some at
• 57:46some point later this year and then
• 57:49start working with payers and they
• 57:51they won't know for at least I think
• 57:53another year and a half to two years
• 57:55whether it will be covered or not.
• 57:57That's how it usually takes.
• 57:59I think the advantage of well pursuing
• 58:01the time. So that's maybe
• 58:03final comment or wrap up.
• 58:08As you say, there is a quick advantage
• 58:10that Sparvato has sort of blazed
• 58:12the trail here so that they that
• 58:14there's some groundwork to it. Yeah,
• 58:17yeah, absolutely agree.
• 58:20All right. I mean, clearly,
• 58:21Dina, there's a lot of interest.
• 58:22We're very appreciative of you being
• 58:24here and this conversation could go on,
• 58:26but I do know the time.
• 58:27It's the end of the day on Friday out here,
• 58:28so I want to be respectful of
• 58:30people's evenings and of your time.
• 58:32Dina, thank you again for being here.
• 58:33You really bring such a rich perspective
• 58:35to this field and we appreciate this,
• 58:37this conversation.
• 58:38Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
• 58:40This was great. Feel free to reach
• 58:42out with more questions. OK, Bye.
• 58:44Bye. Have a good day. Thank you.
• 58:46Take care, everyone. Bye. Bye.