Yale Psychiatry Grand Rounds: September 15, 2023
September 15, 2023"Pursuing Fundamental Fairness; APA's Response to Structural Bias in Psychiatry"
Speaker: Cheryl Wills, MD, Associate Professor of Psychiatry, Case Western Reserve University
Information
- ID
- 10712
- To Cite
- DCA Citation Guide
Transcript
- 00:00DK for a lovely introduction,
- 00:03I'm going to see if I can share
- 00:06my screen here and get started.
- 00:11Okay,
- 00:16okay, good morning.
- 00:17It's a privilege to be here.
- 00:20It's been an interesting time in history
- 00:25of the United States and elsewhere,
- 00:28especially with the
- 00:29pandemic and civil unrest.
- 00:31And one of the things that I've
- 00:35noticed is that people have responded
- 00:38differently to stressors than they
- 00:40would have in other situations,
- 00:42but with good reason.
- 00:43Each stressor we've had to deal with has
- 00:45affected each of us in a different way.
- 00:48So one of the things that's
- 00:49important to me is to understand,
- 00:50try to understand where everyone's
- 00:51coming from and try to reach a
- 00:53consensus that moves us ahead.
- 00:55And the goal is to do that as efficiently
- 00:56as possible because we know that
- 00:58there are going to be hiccups along
- 00:59the way and we have to reconfigure
- 01:01things and be strategic about it.
- 01:03And I guess this is what we're
- 01:05trying to do in forensic psychiatry.
- 01:07We're trying to look at all the data,
- 01:10marshal the evidence,
- 01:12render an opinion,
- 01:14and then advocate for that opinion
- 01:18while being cognizant that there are
- 01:20times that we may have overlooked
- 01:22something and we'll have to concede
- 01:24and and and step back and regroup.
- 01:26So my talk is pursuing fundamental fairness,
- 01:28APA's response to structural races
- 01:31of structural bias in psychiatry.
- 01:33And let me see if I can move these
- 01:36photos okay now I can see better okay.
- 01:38The objectives are to explain the
- 01:40relationship between structural bias,
- 01:42health disparities, medical morbidity,
- 01:44and mortality.
- 01:45To explain examine how organized medicine
- 01:47is addressing racial bias in healthcare
- 01:49and to describe the process challenges,
- 01:51accomplishments,
- 01:52implementation,
- 01:52and lessons learned by the Structural
- 01:55Racism Task Force and present.
- 01:57The status of the A present status
- 01:59of the APA's anti bias agenda and
- 02:02the gap is suggesting the gap and
- 02:04knowledge of how intrinsic and extrinsic
- 02:06biases in medicine affect health
- 02:09disparities and workforce burn down.
- 02:11I have no disclosures and I would
- 02:14like to open my talks with a quote
- 02:17and here's one of my favorite ones.
- 02:19Great minds discuss ideas,
- 02:23and we're going to discuss some ideas today.
- 02:25Average minds discuss events,
- 02:27and of course we'll be discussing
- 02:29some events,
- 02:29but to a lesser degree than the ideas
- 02:32and small minds discuss people.
- 02:33We're going to try to avoid that one today,
- 02:36so let's just look at some basic definitions.
- 02:39Race is a social construct or
- 02:41interpretation based on physical
- 02:42characteristics.
- 02:43Racism is a system that assigns
- 02:45value to that.
- 02:47Prejudice is a belief that is rooted,
- 02:48and often rooted in unfair assumptions.
- 02:51Discrimination is an action that is
- 02:53informed or motivated by prejudice,
- 02:56whether or not it's deliberate.
- 02:59And excuse me,
- 03:02HealthEquity is really what
- 03:05we're talking about here.
- 03:08Despite immutable traits, each person,
- 03:11regardless of station in life,
- 03:13can achieve the same level of
- 03:16health by accessing individualized
- 03:18quality care without bias.
- 03:20So it's a matter of accessing care
- 03:22based on what your needs are and not
- 03:25how much you have in your wallet or
- 03:28whether which insurance plan you have.
- 03:31OK, we're going to talk a little
- 03:32bit about microaggressions.
- 03:33I'm sure you're familiar with this term,
- 03:35which was actually coined in the late
- 03:371960s by a PA member, Chester Pierce,
- 03:40who just had a an endowed lectureship
- 03:45funded in his name. And Ezra,
- 03:47your own Irish Griffith was
- 03:49one of the people behind that.
- 03:51But he coined this term in the late 1960s,
- 03:53described how whites reacted to blacks after
- 04:01became illegal in the country.
- 04:02And it was a it was a brief,
- 04:04commonplace verbal, behavioral,
- 04:06or environmental indignity,
- 04:08regardless of intent,
- 04:09that communicated hostile,
- 04:10derogatory or negative prejudicial
- 04:11slides and insults towards a group,
- 04:13particularly culturally marginalized groups.
- 04:15Now in the late 1960s,
- 04:18Doctor Pierce used that to describe the
- 04:22relationship between whites and blacks.
- 04:24Black whites towards blacks,
- 04:25particularly in the South but
- 04:27also elsewhere and over time.
- 04:29People like Darryl Wingsu and others
- 04:32began to study this and realize
- 04:34that this is not specific to blacks.
- 04:37The relationships or or a microaggressions
- 04:39don't focus just on black people.
- 04:43So they decided it on many levels.
- 04:46It affects college students,
- 04:48It affects people and everyday life.
- 04:51There are studies that show
- 04:53that it is related to suicide.
- 04:56It's mediated by depression,
- 04:57but increased drinking,
- 04:58increased anxiety are some of
- 05:00the things that studies have
- 05:01shown that are related to this.
- 05:03So we have to be mindful of this because
- 05:05it may seem like a small incident,
- 05:08but when it's compiled and
- 05:10you compound other factors,
- 05:11this can have horrible outcomes
- 05:14for a subgroup of people.
- 05:16Micro inequities is something that
- 05:18our patients often talk about,
- 05:20but also our colleagues.
- 05:21The experience of being undervalued,
- 05:24marginalized, overlooked,
- 05:25and devalued because of someone's
- 05:27status as a minority.
- 05:29And one of the reasons micro
- 05:31inequities is important in
- 05:33Healthcare is because of how,
- 05:35because how people are perceived or how
- 05:38they feel during a healthcare encounter
- 05:41informs how they approach Wellness,
- 05:44whether or not they return,
- 05:45whether or not they comply etcetera.
- 05:48So we have an important role to play
- 05:50in in addressing micro inequities,
- 05:53being responsive in to it in our patients,
- 05:55but also being aware of it around us.
- 06:01Intersectionality, the complex cumulative
- 06:03way in which the effects of multiple
- 06:06forms of discrimination such as racism,
- 06:08sexism, ableism, and classism combine,
- 06:11overlap or intersect, especially
- 06:13in the experiences of marginalized
- 06:16individualized individuals or groups.
- 06:18For example, right before the
- 06:20Structural Racism Task Force,
- 06:22I had broken my ankles.
- 06:23So what was my intersectionality?
- 06:26African American, female,
- 06:28overweight and on crutches.
- 06:31And I can tell you, based on one
- 06:33experience when I had to travel by air,
- 06:36the treatment was horrendous.
- 06:38I was stuck on a plane for almost an hour
- 06:42because no one would help me get off.
- 06:44And that was before I was on
- 06:46crutches and I needed a knee scooter.
- 06:49I also was placed on the plane last
- 06:51and stepped up first because there
- 06:53wasn't enough staff and mind you
- 06:56this was pre pandemic not during
- 06:58the pandemic so they they should
- 06:59have had sufficient staff.
- 07:03Also it made me think about how difficult
- 07:07it is for people who are differently abled.
- 07:11Do you driving to the store and not
- 07:14being able to get a handicap parking
- 07:17spot because someone that fell the need
- 07:19to run into it to a store, etcetera.
- 07:21So these things while the everyday
- 07:24person may consider not too important,
- 07:26those cumulative perceived slides can
- 07:28have an impact on one sense of wellbeing.
- 07:33Okay, structural or systemic racism,
- 07:36also known as institutional racism
- 07:38is a combination of public policies,
- 07:41institutional practices,
- 07:44social forces and processes that generate
- 07:49and perpetuate inequities about races.
- 07:52And the key to racism is that is that
- 07:54it evolves, it's dynamic, it's adaptive.
- 07:57We can look at the the caste system,
- 08:00we can look at housing discrimination.
- 08:03Often times it's legislative, but look,
- 08:04historically we see how after slavery
- 08:08was adopt abolished, the policies
- 08:11and the laws morphed to Jim Crow.
- 08:14And then we thought that the Civil
- 08:17Rights Act of 1964 actually outlawed
- 08:21discrimination against minorities.
- 08:23But we see what's going on,
- 08:25what will happen in 2020 during COVID in
- 08:28the health inequities and other inequities,
- 08:30police brutality,
- 08:32housing discrimination, etcetera.
- 08:34And then we still see some
- 08:38in a different form in 2023.
- 08:40And as someone who has been
- 08:43subjected to housing discrimination,
- 08:44I I I think this is extremely concerning
- 08:47because when I tell people my experiences,
- 08:50I say, you know,
- 08:51I've had housing discrimination
- 08:53experiences ever since medical
- 08:55school and I overpaid for my house.
- 08:58Why?
- 08:58Because I didn't want to be bothered
- 09:00with the process.
- 09:01I just wanted somewhere to to become
- 09:04that I was comfortable with.
- 09:05But they say,
- 09:06well you know why it's experienced
- 09:08this also I said I get it and I
- 09:10believe it and I've seen it happen,
- 09:12but do they have it occur as often as
- 09:15it has happened to someone like me?
- 09:18Even when I paid,
- 09:20when I finished my fellowship,
- 09:22I went and I paid 2 months,
- 09:26two months of deposit and the first
- 09:29month's rent came back and Phil Resnick,
- 09:31secretary, called me and said
- 09:33you have to go back to Buffalo.
- 09:35Your apartment fell through,
- 09:36I said, But the money's in the bank.
- 09:38So over time, if that's impacting me
- 09:40or someone like me or one of your
- 09:42colleagues or one of your patients,
- 09:44you can see where how that
- 09:46can impact their attitudes.
- 09:47The presentation at work,
- 09:49the the perceived stressors at
- 09:51work because they have more to
- 09:54deal with that most people don't.
- 09:57And classification of of racist
- 10:02racism is based on intent.
- 10:04Now let's not forget that for 85% of
- 10:08the time that blacks have been in this
- 10:11country since sixteen 1985% they've
- 10:14lived under legalized discrimination,
- 10:16so up until 1964.
- 10:18So when you look at that,
- 10:20you see how harsh this is
- 10:23and how it can happen,
- 10:25impact on our perceptions of others.
- 10:29And it's not a matter of you didn't cause it,
- 10:31this person didn't cause it,
- 10:32that person didn't cause it.
- 10:34It's a matter of these
- 10:36things occurring over time.
- 10:37So classification can be direct or indirect.
- 10:41So direct racism is deliberate.
- 10:43It's often legislated.
- 10:43It's that policy.
- 10:44We don't allow these types
- 10:46of people in our system.
- 10:47And I I'm working with on the I MG's and
- 10:49working with residency training directors.
- 10:52One of the things that I MG's submitted
- 10:54a report to the Board of Trustees,
- 10:57GA Board of Trustees.
- 10:58One of the things they requested is
- 11:00that the APA take a position on using
- 11:03some type of filter to filter out
- 11:06international medical graduates when
- 11:07one is selecting residency programs.
- 11:10And I heard many people say we don't do that.
- 11:13But then I had two training directors
- 11:16from two different programs in two
- 11:17different parts of the United States,
- 11:19and both of them said their
- 11:22chairs had asked them to filter
- 11:24out I M g's on the first round.
- 11:26So that would be deliberate.
- 11:28Indirect is when you know it's
- 11:31wrong and you still do it,
- 11:35you still perpetuate that.
- 11:37And in post those cases,
- 11:39those training directors said that
- 11:40they told their chairman Okay,
- 11:41they do it,
- 11:42but then they didn't because they
- 11:44knew it was the wrong thing to do.
- 11:45Okay. Now let's talk about privilege.
- 11:48This is a very polarizing turn these days,
- 11:53But I'm going to talk with you about
- 11:55privilege from the perspective
- 11:57of Peggy Mackintosh,
- 11:58who was a professor of women's studies
- 12:01at Wellesley, and she wrote a paper,
- 12:05a seminal paper titled White Privilege,
- 12:11Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.
- 12:13And what Doctor McIntosh did was in
- 12:16the late 1960s, she wrote a seminal
- 12:19paper about male privilege, and again,
- 12:21as a professor of women's studies,
- 12:24this was at Proco. But over time,
- 12:26she realized that relative to her
- 12:28black colleagues in the department,
- 12:30she had access to resources that they didn't.
- 12:33She knew people, the networks,
- 12:35the opportunities,
- 12:35and they didn't have those opportunities.
- 12:38So even if they were equally qualified,
- 12:40their careers would not advance as
- 12:42fast because they didn't have access.
- 12:44So she uses metaphor white
- 12:46privileges like an invisible,
- 12:48weightless knapsack of special provisions,
- 12:51assembly, excuse me, Provisions, maps,
- 12:53passports, code, books, visas, clothes,
- 12:57tools and other blank checks, etcetera.
- 12:59And the key to this invisible
- 13:02knapsack is that you're born with it
- 13:04and contains these unearned apps,
- 13:07assets that you count on cashing
- 13:10in on every day.
- 13:12Now your condition to be
- 13:16oblivious to cashing in on that.
- 13:19And that is key.
- 13:20We each have different types of backpacks,
- 13:23and the backpack and our knapsack
- 13:25would vary depending on where you are.
- 13:28For example,
- 13:28if you're Jewish in New York,
- 13:30you may have a burlap knapsack
- 13:32with a lot of provisions in it.
- 13:35If you move to South Dakota that
- 13:36the fabric on that knapsack may thin
- 13:38out and the resources may thin out,
- 13:41but you're walking into a situation
- 13:43where you have a advantage and a level of
- 13:47resources that other people may not have.
- 13:50I have privilege.
- 13:51I sit on the board of trustees of the APA.
- 13:54Is that not privilege?
- 13:55That's something that most people don't have.
- 13:57So I have access to knowledge,
- 13:58resources, people,
- 13:59etcetera, by virtue of that.
- 14:02So in that situation, I have privilege.
- 14:04But when I went to pick up some artwork
- 14:07from a museum that I had purchased,
- 14:10I was accompanied by two friends
- 14:11and they asked me.
- 14:13It was a Saturday morning and they asked me,
- 14:15why are you dressed for work?
- 14:17I said because I'm going to get my artwork.
- 14:20They had on jeans and ski jackets,
- 14:22but why do you need to dress that
- 14:25way when you're picking up artwork?
- 14:27It's the weekend,
- 14:28I said,
- 14:29because I'm going to pick up my artwork.
- 14:31So we walked into the museum and
- 14:33this was the at the end of an art
- 14:35show and the three of us walked in.
- 14:37They're older white women and they
- 14:41walked right through. I got stopped.
- 14:44I was asked, may I help you?
- 14:45I said I'm here to pick up my artwork.
- 14:48Oh, are you working for one of the artists?
- 14:52No,
- 14:52I'm here to pick up artwork that I purchased.
- 14:57Well how do you think you get artwork?
- 15:01I purchased my artwork.
- 15:04So I said, here's my ID,
- 15:06which they told me to bring,
- 15:08and the woman looked at my ID
- 15:11as if she was perplexed.
- 15:13So I said, well,
- 15:14I have my passport and my
- 15:16medical license here too,
- 15:18if you'd like to see them.
- 15:20And then things changed.
- 15:22I was able to pick up my artwork.
- 15:25I was happy. We walked out of the
- 15:28museum and my friend asked me,
- 15:30how could you be so calm?
- 15:32I said I'm happy.
- 15:33Why are you happy after you
- 15:35were treated like that?
- 15:36Because I got my artwork,
- 15:38I came here to get my artwork,
- 15:39I got my artwork and I'm going,
- 15:41I'm, I'm going home.
- 15:44So they couldn't understand that.
- 15:46Why can't you be mad?
- 15:47And I explained to them,
- 15:48if I allow that to ruin my day,
- 15:51I would have more ruined
- 15:53days than you can imagine.
- 15:55So I dressed a certain way and I prepare.
- 16:00I had more ID than I needed,
- 16:03just in case,
- 16:03and it worked for me.
- 16:05I'm not going to give her and her
- 16:08ignorance the opportunity of the
- 16:09privilege of controlling my mood and my day.
- 16:13I'm happy, mission accomplished.
- 16:14And they were miserable for
- 16:15the rest of the day.
- 16:16And we still talk about that because
- 16:19they didn't realize what it was
- 16:22like until they saw it first hand.
- 16:25So let's talk about another aspect of
- 16:30discrimination, systemic discrimination.
- 16:31This is a wonderful study by Calco,
- 16:34Calfeld and Hancock.
- 16:35And what they did was they went
- 16:38to the Philadelphia court system,
- 16:40and they're linguists.
- 16:41They went to the Philadelphia
- 16:43court court system and they asked
- 16:46transcriptionists to participate in a study.
- 16:49In 27 agreed.
- 16:50And what they did was they recorded
- 16:538 native speakers of African
- 16:55American English and asked the the
- 16:58transcription is to to transcribe it.
- 17:02Those transcriptionists got 59.5%
- 17:06accuracy in terms of sentences.
- 17:09Words were transcribed 82.9%
- 17:13of the time correctly.
- 17:1582.9% of the time.
- 17:17Who, what,
- 17:18where and when were often
- 17:20transcribed incorrectly.
- 17:21Sentences were correctly
- 17:22paraphrased 1/3 of the time,
- 17:25but that was not systematically
- 17:27related to accuracy.
- 17:28So you can see where when some
- 17:31if you were in a situation and
- 17:33you were in court and someone in
- 17:36contract directly transcribed
- 17:37what you were saying and that goes
- 17:39up to that case goes to appeal,
- 17:41that can have a bad outcome.
- 17:44And I'll note that in order to
- 17:46be certified as a court reporter,
- 17:4995% accuracy is required.
- 17:50But the problem with this is
- 17:52that the transcription is said
- 17:55they want more training,
- 17:56they want more help when they are trained.
- 17:59They are trained on the
- 18:01voices of news reporters,
- 18:02judges and attorneys.
- 18:04They don't reflect the
- 18:06people that are in court,
- 18:08the general population that
- 18:10appears in the courtroom.
- 18:11So they get tested on one thing
- 18:15and then they are in another
- 18:17situation and it's hard to
- 18:22be inaccurate. But they also say that
- 18:26they were trained to tell people when
- 18:29I asked people for clarification when
- 18:31they didn't understand what was said.
- 18:34But that was quietly discouraged
- 18:35in a courtroom and could cost
- 18:37them their jobs as a subtext.
- 18:39So again these implications are profound.
- 18:42I've had it happen with transcriptionist
- 18:44I found in some and and one case that
- 18:49Ebonics was included in my transcription,
- 18:52which is why I read all of them.
- 18:54It said D&D and she be doing this net
- 18:58during a forensic deposition that I gave.
- 19:03So what about medicine?
- 19:06From Martin Luther King Junior said
- 19:08in 1966 to a group of reporters,
- 19:11Of all the forms of
- 19:12discrimination and inequality,
- 19:13injustice and Healthcare is the
- 19:15most shocking and inhuman because
- 19:17it often results in physical death.
- 19:21So the AM may begin to look at this during
- 19:27the beginning of civil unrest about May 2020,
- 19:32as well as during the pandemic when
- 19:34all the data was coming out to.
- 19:36That reinforced the inequities and made
- 19:38it a reality for some people who fail to
- 19:41believe racism is a threat to public health.
- 19:44So they wanted to focus on creating pathways
- 19:47to truth healing and reconciliation.
- 19:50They want to advance equity
- 19:52in medicine and public health.
- 19:53They said something that they've
- 19:55known for years or decades.
- 19:57Race is a social construct which
- 20:00is different from ethnicity,
- 20:02genetic ancestry or biology,
- 20:03and race is not a biological
- 20:06determinant of health.
- 20:12The AM A supports ending the practice
- 20:14of using race as a proxy for biology
- 20:17or genetics and medical education,
- 20:19research and clinical practice.
- 20:20And I often get the question,
- 20:23well, if you don't use race,
- 20:24then how do you get this information?
- 20:27And it's simple.
- 20:28The AM A recommends that clinicians and
- 20:30researchers focus on genetics and biology,
- 20:33the experience of racism and social
- 20:37determinants of health and not race when
- 20:41describing risk factors for disease.
- 20:46So it seems simple,
- 20:48but to get people to buy
- 20:50into this will take decades,
- 20:52especially in research,
- 20:53because already in research people are
- 20:56screened out because they are not the
- 20:59quote UN quote ideal study subject.
- 21:02So the patients I see,
- 21:04most of the patients I see do not
- 21:06qualify for research studies for
- 21:08a variety of different reasons.
- 21:10But they they have.
- 21:11They would never check off all the
- 21:14boxes for one reason or another.
- 21:16So let's talk about social
- 21:19determinants of health.
- 21:21The county health ranking study
- 21:22was one of the first studies that
- 21:25showed that clinical care accounts
- 21:28for 16% of health outcomes.
- 21:31Some other studies showed 18 to 20%.
- 21:35But most of what happens and what most
- 21:40of what determines those outcomes are
- 21:42the social determinants of health,
- 21:44how we live, work, worship,
- 21:47are educated, our families,
- 21:49our situations,
- 21:50etcetera.
- 21:50So when we look at all of those
- 21:53lifestyle factors,
- 21:54we go back to the concern about
- 21:57the bias in these systems.
- 22:01So Metzel and Hanson Metzels in Tennessee
- 22:05and Hanson's at USUCLA came up with concept
- 22:10called structural competence and they
- 22:14said that it's the more you understand
- 22:16about structural bias in the country,
- 22:19the better the outcomes will be.
- 22:20And studies have since reinforced that.
- 22:23So they're part of being structurally
- 22:26competent is understanding the
- 22:27downstream effective policies,
- 22:29biological, economic, cultural, etcetera,
- 22:32including different forms of class
- 22:37disenfranchisement and HealthEquity.
- 22:39Despite immutable traits,
- 22:41you have access to the potential
- 22:44that have similar house health
- 22:46outcomes that can reduce internal
- 22:48and external bias and stigmatization.
- 22:51For example, when you come into a hospital,
- 22:53if you have tattoos of a certain type,
- 22:57that may explain or that may be
- 23:02telling in certain situations.
- 23:04Now these days, so many tattoos occur,
- 23:07but they still use people have tattoos,
- 23:10but you still look at these things
- 23:13and I always ask about study stories
- 23:14about the tattoos, the histories,
- 23:16the background, etcetera.
- 23:18But this is one of the things that
- 23:20has been associated with gangs
- 23:22and certain communities etcetera.
- 23:24So now a number of hospitals are
- 23:26taking on structural competence
- 23:28training as part of their orientation.
- 23:31For example,
- 23:32at Boston Medical Center with orientation,
- 23:36no healthcare professional can go and
- 23:39touch a patient in that hospital until
- 23:42they learn about structural bias and
- 23:45the things that they're going to see
- 23:48based on the community that they they serve.
- 23:52That can support culturally competent care,
- 23:55but it also promotes evidence based care.
- 23:57Because once you understand these
- 23:58things and can filter those out,
- 24:00you can look at the medicine
- 24:02and the physical,
- 24:02the the physical health and mental health
- 24:05concerns because without that bias.
- 24:07And that's going to be extremely
- 24:09important in how we proceed.
- 24:10And I'll show you a study in a few
- 24:12minutes that will reinforce that,
- 24:14but it also can reduce professional burnout.
- 24:16I had a colleague who once said I see my
- 24:21worst patients more often than others,
- 24:24and someone asked why those are the ones
- 24:27you probably don't want to see and he said,
- 24:29well, I think of it this way.
- 24:31The more I see them,
- 24:32the better chance I have of getting
- 24:34them well and not seeing them as often.
- 24:37And once they're well,
- 24:39I feel very effective and I'm
- 24:42less likely to burn out.
- 24:44So when you understand and can
- 24:47filter out the structural biases,
- 24:49the racism, and other forms of bias,
- 24:52you can look at that person.
- 24:54It improves health outcomes,
- 24:55it supports culturally competent care
- 24:57and promotes evidencebased care.
- 24:59So you do feel more confident and
- 25:01you're less likely to burn out because
- 25:03your practice seems less overwhelming.
- 25:05So here's an example in Madison that is
- 25:09interesting for a number of reasons.
- 25:10As you see, there are four, three men there.
- 25:15We have the Chala from Chadwick
- 25:18Boseman from who starred in the
- 25:20first Black Panther
- 25:24movie as well as in a number of other
- 25:28movies and was one of our bright stars,
- 25:30who died of cancer in his early 40s.
- 25:33Colon cancer, even.
- 25:34Kennedy was diagnosed with stage
- 25:374 colon cancer at age 4039.
- 25:39And Darryl Strawberry,
- 25:41who won World Series rings in New
- 25:46York's for the Yankees and Mets.
- 25:48He was diagnosed with colon
- 25:51cancer at age 36. So you have
- 25:57all that diagnosed with
- 25:59colon cancer before age 40.
- 26:01Now we also know that the steepest
- 26:03increase in colon cancer is in
- 26:05people ages 20 to 39 years of age.
- 26:07And also there is increased
- 26:09incident in women.
- 26:10Blacks are 20% more likely than whites
- 26:12to be diagnosed with colon cancer,
- 26:15and they're 40 to 50.
- 26:16Blacks are 40 to 50% more likely to die.
- 26:18So this seems to be a real concern,
- 26:21especially since it's
- 26:22being diagnosed earlier.
- 26:24But the requirements that I think
- 26:26they came out in 2020 or thereabouts
- 26:30recommend colonoscopies start at age 45.
- 26:35So you're overlooking a population
- 26:37of people systematically who have a
- 26:40worse prognosis and are more likely
- 26:42to die and to have the disease.
- 26:45So this is another example
- 26:48of systemic or implicit bias.
- 26:50Now let's look at some other examples.
- 26:54In 2018,
- 26:54I opened a newspaper and saw that
- 26:57a hospital emergency department
- 26:58found that there was a flaw in their
- 27:02algorithm for contestive heart failure.
- 27:04All things being equal with
- 27:06the severity of symptoms.
- 27:07If you were white,
- 27:09the algorithm told you told the
- 27:12doctors to hospitalize the patient,
- 27:14and if that patient was black,
- 27:18the hospital was called,
- 27:19the instruction was to send the person home.
- 27:22So somebody put program that in
- 27:25the algorithm. The question is why?
- 27:27And how was it somebody who did it By
- 27:29an error, the wasn't tested properly,
- 27:32etcetera.
- 27:32So when you're looking at computers and such,
- 27:34again,
- 27:34it depends on what we put in it and
- 27:36not everything we put in it is equitable.
- 27:38So we have to look at the data
- 27:40and do test runs before we use
- 27:42this to make life the data,
- 27:44the programs to make life or death decisions.
- 27:47And we also look at cystic fibrosis.
- 27:50Blacks are diagnosed an average of four
- 27:53years later with cystic fibrosis than whites.
- 27:56Why?
- 27:56Because in medical schools often people
- 27:58are taught that it's a white disease,
- 28:00so people don't look for for it.
- 28:03And I've had four patients,
- 28:04black patients with cystic fibrosis and
- 28:07it was consistent in all the cases.
- 28:09It was four years,
- 28:10regardless of age,
- 28:11from from teens to early 40s.
- 28:16The perception of pain has been
- 28:18shown by the national study from
- 28:21the National Academy of Sciences.
- 28:23They surveyed medical students,
- 28:25and they found that they,
- 28:28like their counterparts in society,
- 28:31not nonmedical professionals,
- 28:32believe that blacks have a
- 28:35higher pain tolerance.
- 28:36There's also some studies that suggest
- 28:39that pain perception is disregarded or
- 28:41outcomes are worse if the person is less.
- 28:44Lacks English.
- 28:45The parent lacks English proficiency,
- 28:47and there's one study looking
- 28:49at appendectomies.
- 28:50Now,
- 28:50a couple of other studies have
- 28:51come out and they have found
- 28:53it a little bit different,
- 28:55but the studies were not duplicated,
- 28:57so we'll have to wait to see
- 28:59what happens with that.
- 29:00But we do know they were less
- 29:02likely to get imaging studies,
- 29:04and they went to the the operating room
- 29:10for an appendectomy at a later stage
- 29:13of severity. And then we know
- 29:15about schizophrenia which is
- 29:17disproportionately diagnosed in blacks
- 29:19relative to whites regardless of age.
- 29:23And and this is profound,
- 29:25even when semi semi structured
- 29:29clinical interview tool was used,
- 29:33still blacks were diagnosed with
- 29:37schizophrenia more often than whites.
- 29:39And that has a lot of implications
- 29:43about treatment seeking prognosis
- 29:45and other forms of care and
- 29:47longterm outcomes and equity.
- 29:50So let's talk a little about
- 29:52resident burnout and racism.
- 29:54And this is an extremely important
- 29:57study that came out in 2019, Derby,
- 29:59Heron and Wes and colleagues,
- 30:02it was a Co-op study and they looked
- 30:05at over 3000 non black second year
- 30:07resident physicians and they did gave
- 30:09them the mass like burnout inventory
- 30:11which was basically two questions.
- 30:13And then they did a hard sort for implicit
- 30:16bias and a feeling scale for explicit bias.
- 30:18And what they found was secondyear
- 30:21residents who were stressed out,
- 30:22more more likely to engage in,
- 30:26was more likely to be associated
- 30:29with implicit and explicit
- 30:31bias against black people.
- 30:33So when blacks came into the
- 30:35clinics or the hospitals,
- 30:37the bias was implicit,
- 30:40meaning they may not have been aware of it,
- 30:42or it was unintentional,
- 30:45perhaps, and explicit meaning
- 30:47deliberate against black people.
- 30:49So if you're one of those black
- 30:51people going to a hospital and
- 30:53counting one of these residents,
- 30:54you're not going to have a good experience,
- 30:56or you're not going to have as
- 30:58good experience as you should,
- 31:00all things being equal.
- 31:01Now the interesting thing is
- 31:03they found that in 3rd year,
- 31:04the same residents were less stressed,
- 31:06and when they were less stressed,
- 31:08they were less likely to
- 31:10engage in explicit bias,
- 31:11intentional bias against blacks.
- 31:13But the implicit bias persisted.
- 31:18So what about the experience
- 31:20of racism and psychiatry?
- 31:21We talked a little bit about that, but
- 31:28there are other areas in
- 31:31which there's discrimination.
- 31:32And we talked about schizophrenia.
- 31:35Let's talk about antipsychotic prescriptions.
- 31:37Blacks are more likely to get
- 31:39first generation antipsychotics,
- 31:41then then second and that study was
- 31:45from 2004 and it's been repeated
- 31:47now we see all the metabolic
- 31:49concerns that are related to
- 31:552nd generation antipsychotics.
- 31:56So you've got to look at the balancing act,
- 31:58but we also look at the opioid crisis
- 32:00in terms of pain perception. Blacks,
- 32:02usually you see a condition like this,
- 32:04it it affects all sorts of people.
- 32:07But early on in the early 2000s
- 32:09when we began to see the the
- 32:11casualties due to the opioid crisis,
- 32:12they were disproportionately black, white.
- 32:15Only recently have blacks been catching up.
- 32:17So while many blacks suffered
- 32:20unnecessarily with pain back then,
- 32:22it may have saved a number of lives.
- 32:24So it's a mixed bag there.
- 32:26But it shouldn't be occurring.
- 32:29When substance shoots,
- 32:30treatment is prescribed.
- 32:32Blacks are less likely to get substance
- 32:35use care that is cutting edge or
- 32:40medication assisted therapies when
- 32:42they are discharged from hospitals,
- 32:45and these are individual studies.
- 32:46I have the references if you'd like.
- 32:48When they are discharged from hospitals,
- 32:50they're less likely to be
- 32:52referred for psychotherapy,
- 32:53They're more likely to be secluded
- 32:55or restrained in hospitals and other
- 32:57settings and they're more likely to
- 33:01complain about perceiving discrimination
- 33:04in the hospitals in terms of the
- 33:07ratings that hospitals feedback
- 33:09studies that have been occurred.
- 33:11So there may be a number of reasons
- 33:14about that when you look at the resident
- 33:17study that shows that there's some bias
- 33:19and that's a significant part of it.
- 33:22Now,
- 33:22one of the things we do in medicine
- 33:24and psychiatry is prescribed lithium.
- 33:27And one of the things we look at is
- 33:29the glomerular filtration rate and the
- 33:31estimated glomerular filtration rate change.
- 33:34How we look at the range for or what
- 33:38the threshold for kidney disease or
- 33:41renal failure is in black versus white.
- 33:43So Dorothy Roberts is a law
- 33:48professor at Upenn,
- 33:49and when she was a Robert
- 33:51Wood Johnson's fellow,
- 33:52she looked at the history of the
- 33:55difference in a range for a renal failure,
- 33:58cut offs in blacks versus whites.
- 34:01She traced it back to about the 1930s and
- 34:04discovered that it was a case of IPSI Dixit.
- 34:07Because I say so,
- 34:09So for generations,
- 34:10because some person said so.
- 34:12We trained psychiatrists and
- 34:15other physicians,
- 34:16healthcare professionals,
- 34:17generations of them to say to
- 34:20to believe that the glomerular
- 34:22filtration rate range acceptable
- 34:24range was different based on race.
- 34:27That difference is as much as 21%,
- 34:31which means that blacks were
- 34:33less likely to be diagnosed at
- 34:36an early stage of renal failure,
- 34:38which affected morbidity and mortality.
- 34:40So it wasn't race that it was said
- 34:44that blacks have a worse outcome.
- 34:45It was because of the Gomera
- 34:48estimated gomerial filtration
- 34:50rate and not because of race.
- 34:52So that also meant that blacks
- 34:54were less likely to be eligible for
- 34:57placement on the renal transplant list.
- 35:00And in February 27th,
- 35:022023,
- 35:03the US Oregon Procurement and
- 35:06Transplantation Network made an
- 35:08effort to make that equitable.
- 35:10They said that they were going
- 35:12to look at every black person on
- 35:15the renal transplant list and see
- 35:17when they how long they had been,
- 35:23how long they had been delayed treatment
- 35:26because of the estimated glomerular
- 35:28filtration rate because now the systems
- 35:30are more equitable and you there
- 35:32are many papers coming out etcetera.
- 35:34Although three years ago people would
- 35:36fight tooth and nail against us.
- 35:38So what they decided was that they
- 35:40were going to look at how long
- 35:43the diagnosis of renal failure was
- 35:46delayed and they would compensate
- 35:48blacks for at least up to 19 months.
- 35:52In other words, you go back and if
- 35:55you were misdiagnosed for two years,
- 35:57they would move you up 19 months ahead
- 36:00on the transplant list in an effort to
- 36:03come create some semblance of equity.
- 36:06And so the wait listing times had
- 36:08to be backdated.
- 36:09And this is to it's intended to repair
- 36:14damage due to structural racism.
- 36:17The While it sounds good,
- 36:21it doesn't happen enough.
- 36:23This is one of the first efforts
- 36:25to do some type of correction,
- 36:30attractive action for medical
- 36:32bias on this level.
- 36:34And we also look at ADS.
- 36:35This is a 1974 ad from the Archives
- 36:39of General Psychiatry and some
- 36:42of you may recognize this.
- 36:45This is an ad that says assaultive
- 36:47and belligerent cooperations also
- 36:49often begins with hallow paradol,
- 36:52a first choice for starting therapy.
- 36:54And what you see in the picture
- 36:56is the angry black man.
- 36:57Now that is one of the things that people
- 37:02used to justify diagnosing schizophrenia.
- 37:06Incorrectly,
- 37:06so of course,
- 37:07but if it's an angry black person,
- 37:09an agitated black person,
- 37:11they're more likely to be diagnosed
- 37:13with a psychosis spectrum disorder
- 37:15rather than a mood disorder.
- 37:18So, and this comes when you're taught this,
- 37:20you're trained this to think this way.
- 37:24That passes on to generations too.
- 37:26And that impacts how we treat African
- 37:29Americans who come in or psychiatric care.
- 37:34Now, what can we do to remedy this?
- 37:37Well,
- 37:37clinician bias and burnout and
- 37:40structural bias or discrimination in
- 37:44healthcare can be diminished by health.
- 37:49Cultural humility.
- 37:50Let's start with cultural competence.
- 37:52Cultural competence means that you
- 37:53go and you study and you learn more
- 37:55about different cultures, etcetera.
- 37:57But it the word competence
- 37:59suggests that it's finite,
- 38:01but it also can introduce bias.
- 38:04I've read about how you people function,
- 38:06so therefore I know what's best for you.
- 38:08Or this is how you do things.
- 38:10Or in your hospital.
- 38:12This is the culture.
- 38:14So when you use cultural competence,
- 38:17there is a sense that you have
- 38:20gained proficiency and you risk
- 38:22telling people about who they are
- 38:24rather than listening to them
- 38:27and learning about who they are.
- 38:29But what you can do is use
- 38:32cultural competence to inform your
- 38:34approach to cultural humility.
- 38:36For example,
- 38:37I once worked on A at the Navajo Nation,
- 38:41the hospital there for it
- 38:43defines an Indian hospital.
- 38:44So what I did was I read a lot
- 38:48about native culture and then
- 38:51I asked questions about it.
- 38:54Can you help me understand this?
- 38:56Is this a customary or how
- 38:58should I think about
- 39:00this? And they really enjoyed
- 39:02the have having discussions.
- 39:04They sent me to a sweat lodge and the
- 39:07next day they had a debriefing and I
- 39:10learned so much about indigenous culture
- 39:13that it was a a a profound experience.
- 39:16But had I gone in and said, you know,
- 39:18all I I've read in these books and
- 39:20use that and not ask questions,
- 39:22not been looking at critical selfreflection,
- 39:25where am I being biased?
- 39:26Am I shutting myself to be open
- 39:28on to this and to learning,
- 39:30then the outcome would have been different.
- 39:32So a cultural humility involves
- 39:35critical selfreflection,
- 39:36openness, nonjudgment, curiosity.
- 39:37And it's been shown to have
- 39:39benefits and treatments such as
- 39:41strengthening the therapeutic alliance
- 39:43and improving health outcomes.
- 39:45So what about a PA?
- 39:48Well, APA strategic initiative since
- 39:532015 has been to advanced integration
- 39:56of psychiatry and healthcare,
- 39:58supporting research,
- 39:59supporting and increasing diversity
- 40:01within the APA and education.
- 40:04And I put in yellow here and a larger
- 40:06type support on the supporting
- 40:09increasing diversity in the APA.
- 40:11And the rest of it says serving
- 40:12the needs of evolving, diverse,
- 40:14underrepresented and underserved
- 40:15patient populations and working to
- 40:17end disparities in mental health care.
- 40:20OK,
- 40:21so Apa's response to structural
- 40:24racism was multifactorial.
- 40:25And I will say that the task force,
- 40:28I'm going to tell you how that came about.
- 40:30In March 2020,
- 40:31we were in the board room debating
- 40:33whether or not we're going to have the
- 40:35May meeting because the pandemic was there.
- 40:38And I brought up a concern that we were
- 40:41not following the OR fulfilling the
- 40:43diversity initiative or requirement
- 40:45or goal of our strategic initiative.
- 40:47And after bringing it up a couple of times,
- 40:49President Bruce Schwartz said let's
- 40:50look at that. And then his term ended.
- 40:52And then Jeff Geller,
- 40:54term open began and as president of a
- 40:58PA and he said we're going to look at this.
- 41:01And once he looked at it further,
- 41:05he was planning a a study or
- 41:09study group on this.
- 41:10And then after George Floyd's death,
- 41:13he changed it to a task force and made
- 41:16it the focus of his presidential year.
- 41:19Now back to a PA's response
- 41:22to structural racism.
- 41:23They did make some announcements about
- 41:25COVID-19 and health disparities early on.
- 41:28They denounced racism and police brutality.
- 41:30And some of this had occurred before 2020.
- 41:34In July 2020,
- 41:34the Board had a round table
- 41:36discussion and everyone participated.
- 41:38I think it was about two hours long
- 41:40about each of our views on race.
- 41:42And they realized that the APA has does
- 41:45not have definitions for minority and
- 41:48representative and underrepresented.
- 41:50And so there was a whole work group on
- 41:52that and then they did more studies.
- 41:54And so the findings have been taken,
- 41:57sent to the minority and underrepresented
- 42:00groups and they had focus groups
- 42:02and discussions about that.
- 42:03So that's still an evolution.
- 42:05We hired consultants and this
- 42:07was one of my big
- 42:11request. I said that we don't
- 42:14have the expertise to say whether
- 42:17or not our board is biased or
- 42:21conforming practices for boards.
- 42:23We need someone who knows
- 42:25how boards function etcetera,
- 42:28look at what we're doing and give
- 42:30constructive feedback about what
- 42:32we're doing well and helping us
- 42:34understand what we need to do to
- 42:36improve in those other areas.
- 42:37So there was also a call self and
- 42:39looking at structural bias in a
- 42:41PA's or diversity equity inclusion
- 42:43in a PA's headquarters.
- 42:44And the board underwent A sixhour
- 42:47training with the Barkwell
- 42:49Group adversity training.
- 42:50And while it seemed to be a
- 42:53drop of sand in the water,
- 42:55it actually got us on a common ground
- 42:58because everybody had a similar baseline
- 43:01for discussion and the discussions
- 43:03began to change in a positive way.
- 43:06The CEO was appointed A diversity
- 43:08coach and he found that extremely
- 43:11helpful and I noticed that his
- 43:14language and his perspective,
- 43:15how he processed or presented
- 43:17I should say how he presented.
- 43:19Things changed and the tensions actually
- 43:23diminished when with certain groups
- 43:26that were perceived to be slighted.
- 43:29The APA's foundation does pipeline
- 43:32programs and programs about
- 43:34psychiatry for high school students,
- 43:37Historically black colleges and universities.
- 43:39There are many fellowships for
- 43:41residents and some of you may
- 43:43be a PA Foundation fellows.
- 43:44And then there was a Chester
- 43:46Pierce Human Rights Award,
- 43:47which I mentioned before beyond
- 43:49the Structural Racism Task Force.
- 43:51Also our publications took it upon
- 43:54themselves to look at the matter
- 43:58and introduce areas of reform
- 44:00or areas to expand diversity.
- 44:02Now President Geller appointed
- 44:04Structural Racism Task Force
- 44:07and here are all the members.
- 44:10There were five
- 44:13members, experts and then
- 44:16there was Doctor DK.
- 44:18And Doctor DK was a special ask on my
- 44:20part because of his experiences as
- 44:23an international medical graduate,
- 44:25his experiences in Forensic Psychiatry,
- 44:27because I wanted a systematic
- 44:29and unbiased approach to this,
- 44:30and because he was chair of the Ethics
- 44:33Committee and that was very important.
- 44:35Or or acting cochair, I forget the,
- 44:38I forget the position and I
- 44:40apologize for that Charles.
- 44:42But he joined without hesitation.
- 44:46So the goals were providing
- 44:48education and resources on APA,
- 44:50psychiatric history regarding
- 44:51structural racism,
- 44:52explaining the current impact of
- 44:53structural racism on the mental health
- 44:55for our patients and colleagues,
- 44:57developing recommendations for
- 44:59change and providing reports.
- 45:02And
- 45:05and these these programs need
- 45:07quality insurance because you have
- 45:09to go back and follow through.
- 45:10Did we do this right? Did we not?
- 45:12What can we do to do to what
- 45:13can we do to get back on track?
- 45:15Because they often fall off track.
- 45:17We have so many other competing
- 45:19interests and I didn't learn until
- 45:21after the task force meeting that
- 45:25I mean task force ended that that
- 45:28each task force is usually given
- 45:30one staff member to work with.
- 45:32I was rallying them all and we
- 45:35had 15 and they were fantastic and
- 45:37helped us make the work go much more
- 45:41smoothly and much more efficiently.
- 45:43They heard about what was going on,
- 45:44they were interested and they
- 45:46were fantastic and we couldn't
- 45:48have done it without them.
- 45:50So my personal goals were to be
- 45:53bidirectional and collaborative.
- 45:54We did surveys and other things
- 45:55and I read every survey answer
- 45:57to understand what was going on.
- 45:59And one of the things,
- 46:00reasons we went and looked at the APA
- 46:02was because the survey responses were
- 46:04don't look at it in the psychiatry,
- 46:06look at it within the APA.
- 46:07So just proportionately we got that feedback.
- 46:09So we did what the members wanted.
- 46:11We wanted it member driven.
- 46:12So we did have groups and meet
- 46:13with groups and talk with groups
- 46:15and it because it takes a village.
- 46:16This is it's a member driven organization
- 46:19and we cannot relook the needs and
- 46:21concerns of our members and it needed
- 46:23to be transparent and balanced.
- 46:25So we had all of these different work
- 46:28groups as well as I mentioned the
- 46:30publications looked at things from
- 46:33their own and DS M5 as you see in
- 46:37DSM5T R there are that was edited to
- 46:40reflect on structural bias and racism.
- 46:43So the text, if you look at it,
- 46:45it's different in a TR version
- 46:47than the five outcomes.
- 46:48We had 19 action items.
- 46:50I knew one was not going to pass
- 46:52and justifiably because of what we
- 46:54learned from our from our consultants.
- 46:56But we had a historic 18 accepted
- 46:59by the Board of trustees.
- 47:01They voted on 18 and accepted them.
- 47:03Now usually they just accept the
- 47:05report and it sits on a shelf.
- 47:07And my research before I got started
- 47:10with the task force showed me that
- 47:14we have the consultants we had.
- 47:17We have now have a section in the
- 47:19medical director CEO's report that
- 47:21describes all of the anti racism
- 47:23and equity and inclusion initiatives
- 47:27in one section.
- 47:28Because it turned out we were doing
- 47:30a lot of things that we weren't
- 47:32aware that we were doing.
- 47:33But once you compile them,
- 47:35you can see that as a body of work,
- 47:38we reviewed on the strategic
- 47:40initiative at every board meeting and
- 47:42everybody has a plaque in front of
- 47:44them to remind them of what they are.
- 47:47And one of the survey questions after
- 47:49board meetings were did I include diversity,
- 47:52equity,
- 47:52inclusion in all of the deliberations.
- 47:55Also did the group and did the
- 47:57chairman or the president of
- 47:59the APA who chairs the group.
- 48:01We had several town halls work
- 48:04group meetings and we also concern
- 48:06firm that a PAAPPN is looking at
- 48:09specific readings and diversity,
- 48:11equity, inclusion,
- 48:12structural racism or and made
- 48:15to include in maintenance
- 48:18of certification readings.
- 48:21We removed the
- 48:25the likeness of Benjamin Rush.
- 48:26It had already been moved but removed.
- 48:28But he owned slaves, among other things,
- 48:31and so now people have an option
- 48:34to turn in their own old fellows
- 48:37medals and badges and to get the
- 48:39new one with the brain on it.
- 48:41And they were two resident projects and
- 48:43we are extremely proud of our residents.
- 48:45Under Doctor DK's leadership,
- 48:47they developed a model curriculum
- 48:50for A on structural bias, diversity,
- 48:52equity, inclusion and a database
- 48:54for resident concern.
- 48:56So now when you go to an APA meeting
- 48:58on there is a way to report when
- 49:02you experience bias and they're
- 49:03looking at that and the trends to see
- 49:05what's going on and if there are any
- 49:07patterns how they can approach that.
- 49:09So in terms of ally ship,
- 49:11this is what I leave you with.
- 49:13If you see something wrong,
- 49:14say something,
- 49:14be accountable to yourself and
- 49:16look with them.
- 49:17Don't forget cultural humility
- 49:19because those concepts are we are
- 49:22taught in psychotherapy training,
- 49:24but they also can apply to
- 49:26other aspects of our lives.
- 49:27Focus on self-care to reduce
- 49:30extrinsic bias because we know
- 49:32that extrinsic bias and influences
- 49:35how we treat our patients,
- 49:38especially certain groups of patients
- 49:40or certain class of patients.
- 49:42Equity councils can help but don't
- 49:44overburden your colleagues because they
- 49:46don't want to be the expert on black people.
- 49:48There's not one black person,
- 49:49but they don't want to be the
- 49:51expert on people who have physical,
- 49:52who are differently abled or who
- 49:55speak Spanish or what have you.
- 49:57And don't forget about the invisible pack.
- 49:59Pack privileges situation specific
- 50:01and we must be cognizant of that
- 50:05and and everything we do.
- 50:07So basically now where are things we
- 50:09have the structural racism accountability
- 50:10committee they're required to report
- 50:12to the board and every board member.
- 50:15Looking at those 18 action items,
- 50:18we've gotten some of them completed and
- 50:20closed but we're still working on other
- 50:22ones and that is charge of work committee.
- 50:27But in 2023,
- 50:28it was moved to the membership
- 50:30under the membership committee.
- 50:32So we look forward to seeing at our next
- 50:34board meeting in October how far it's
- 50:36gone and what we need to propel things ahead.
- 50:39And I'd like to end with this
- 50:40quote from Barack Obama.
- 50:42You can be completely right and you
- 50:43still are going to have to engage
- 50:45folks who disagree with you.
- 50:46So don't try to shut folks out.
- 50:47Don't try to shut them down,
- 50:48no matter how much you might disagree
- 50:50with them.
- 50:51And thank you for your time.
- 50:52And I was able to add a couple of
- 50:54slides I had limited because you're so
- 50:56gracious with your time and I'm going to.