PELC 10.14.24

Transcript

• 00:06Minutes,
• 00:07but, certainly,
• 00:09I
• 00:10love to start by welcoming
• 00:12everybody here.
• 00:14You know,
• 00:17we thought
• 00:18of the idea of just
• 00:20having a panel slash conversation
• 00:22because,
• 00:24many of us have been
• 00:26approached,
• 00:27by either junior faculty
• 00:30or,
• 00:31you know,
• 00:33fellow
• 00:35after,
• 00:36or just an educational leader,
• 00:40you know, in either in
• 00:42education,
• 00:43an an educational leader in
• 00:44education, a leader in education,
• 00:47and so could think
• 00:49of
• 00:50no better than two of,
• 00:54our educational leaders in our
• 00:57pediatric programs,
• 00:59just to make themselves available
• 01:01in a conversation.
• 01:03So first, Rachel Osborne,
• 01:06who's been
• 01:07the categorical
• 01:09pediatric residency
• 01:10director.
• 01:12Let's see. Rachel, is it
• 01:15how do you have you
• 01:16done
• 01:17four years?
• 01:18I'm trying to think of
• 01:19how long it's been. My
• 01:20six.
• 01:21I Oh my gosh. I
• 01:22was gonna say five.
• 01:24The fall of twenty nineteen,
• 01:26as my joke goes, a
• 01:27real chef's kiss timing of
• 01:28when to take a leadership
• 01:30role in medicine. Just, like,
• 01:31couldn't have done it better.
• 01:33Right. So
• 01:35and just to give you
• 01:36a little bit of background,
• 01:38I don't have anybody's formal
• 01:40CV with me, but
• 01:42Rachel had done her
• 01:44med peds,
• 01:47residency here
• 01:48and then,
• 01:50was actually on faculty for
• 01:52probably about two years.
• 01:54And so I'm gonna be
• 01:55a little bit shady in
• 01:56terms of the number of
• 01:57years of everything.
• 01:59Went to University of Michigan,
• 02:02where
• 02:03as soon as we had
• 02:04an opening for pediatric residency
• 02:06director
• 02:07recruited her back. And so,
• 02:10have really, really been thrilled
• 02:12to have,
• 02:13Rachel in our residency,
• 02:16leadership team.
• 02:18And Lisa DelSignore
• 02:19is is a new member,
• 02:22but actually quite an experienced
• 02:25member in terms of educational
• 02:27leadership.
• 02:29And Lisa just joined us,
• 02:31from Tufts.
• 02:32And again, just correct me
• 02:34since I haven't looked at
• 02:35anybody's CDs. And this is
• 02:37out of my memory,
• 02:40where,
• 02:41she had been the associate
• 02:42fellowship program director in critical
• 02:44care, and we could not
• 02:46wait to recruit her as
• 02:48fellowship program director to our
• 02:50critical care program.
• 02:52Lisa also has an educational,
• 02:57educational leadership in the Association
• 02:59of Pediatric Program Directors,
• 03:01I think is now rotating
• 03:03off of a three year
• 03:05term,
• 03:07as the,
• 03:08as a co chair in
• 03:10the
• 03:11Association for Pediatric Program Directors,
• 03:14Northeast Region, where, oh, as
• 03:16an aside,
• 03:17Karina is also a co
• 03:19chair,
• 03:20and
• 03:21still remains.
• 03:23And so really, really thrilled,
• 03:26to have both Leech and
• 03:28Rachel. And again, this is
• 03:30this is really meant to
• 03:31be more of a
• 03:33conversation
• 03:35about
• 03:39to
• 03:40how to think about your
• 03:42own career. So I'm just
• 03:44gonna hand it off to,
• 03:46the both of you. And,
• 03:47again, thank you for doing
• 03:48this.
• 03:52Thank you for having us.
• 03:56Lisa and I were gonna
• 03:58talk briefly in the hallway
• 03:59about what we were gonna
• 04:00do today, and then we
• 04:01got sidetracked talking about a
• 04:03clinical case instead.
• 04:05And so now we have,
• 04:07we're sort of planning to
• 04:08keep it very informal. Maybe
• 04:10I'll give my sort of
• 04:11perspective on program director leadership,
• 04:13and then you can, Lisa,
• 04:14and then we can sort
• 04:15of take some questions. And
• 04:16if not, we'll just pretend
• 04:18like it's between two ferns,
• 04:19and I'll be the the
• 04:21one from the hangover and
• 04:22ask you a series of
• 04:23awkward questions,
• 04:25to to make this entertaining.
• 04:29So as Penina mentioned,
• 04:31I, have had a couple
• 04:33of different hats before I
• 04:35took on this hat, and
• 04:36I didn't necessarily
• 04:37actually think of myself as
• 04:38as a future educational leader.
• 04:41I did do a chief
• 04:42residency year here, after my
• 04:44med pediatrics residency. And I
• 04:45think during that time,
• 04:47I was sort of being
• 04:49directed and coached into kind
• 04:51of a different role, which
• 04:52was a role that I
• 04:53had for two years where
• 04:54I was the deputy quality
• 04:56officer for the children's hospital
• 04:57and the inpatient medical director
• 04:59for the children's hospital.
• 05:02And, obviously, that's, like, not
• 05:03an educational role in the
• 05:05way that you think of
• 05:06it.
• 05:07But I was very close
• 05:08to the residents because I
• 05:09had just been a chief.
• 05:10And when you're in that
• 05:10role as an inpatient medical
• 05:12director, you actually have a
• 05:13ton of interface with learners
• 05:14in the inpatient setting all
• 05:15the time.
• 05:17And so I think,
• 05:19when I I left because
• 05:20I,
• 05:21needed a less important job.
• 05:23I had three kids under
• 05:24age two, and I was
• 05:25like, okay. Well, I can't
• 05:26be having this job with
• 05:27three kids under age two.
• 05:29And so I left because
• 05:30I I wasn't sure I
• 05:31was gonna be able to,
• 05:32like, effectively create that that,
• 05:35what's the term, boundary. I'm
• 05:37really good at using them,
• 05:38obviously, since I can't think
• 05:39of the term, here. And
• 05:40then when I came back,
• 05:42I think,
• 05:43people were interested in bringing
• 05:44me back actually partially because
• 05:48program directorship, and this is
• 05:49my point in all of
• 05:50this, is actually it's an
• 05:52educational job, but it's actually
• 05:53more of an operational job.
• 05:55And I think sometimes people
• 05:57think
• 05:58they wanna be a program
• 05:59director because they think they
• 06:01like to teach. And I
• 06:02of course, I do some
• 06:04teaching. Right? I pinch it
• 06:05and do some lectures here
• 06:06and there. But if, like,
• 06:07what really sort of fills
• 06:09your bucket
• 06:10is the idea
• 06:11of instructional methods and giving
• 06:13a great lecture and thinking
• 06:14about lecture evaluation.
• 06:16That's not actually the the
• 06:18bulk of my job.
• 06:20The bulk of my job
• 06:21is actually thinking about how
• 06:23do we create environments that
• 06:25allow other people to effectively
• 06:28teach.
• 06:29So it's much more sort
• 06:30of operational and leadership
• 06:32than sort of direct
• 06:33education.
• 06:35And I think, I've I've
• 06:36talked to a lot of
• 06:37people who sort of, you
• 06:38know, end up in roles
• 06:39as a p
• 06:43like to teach. Oh. So
• 06:44this is a good job
• 06:45for me. And then they
• 06:46find themselves a little saddened
• 06:49to learn that, in fact,
• 06:50they have less time to
• 06:51teach,
• 06:53because they're doing some of
• 06:54these other operational things.
• 06:57Of course, the other big
• 06:58part of being a program
• 06:59director is not so much
• 07:01direct teaching, but a lot
• 07:02of mentorship
• 07:03and coaching of residents across
• 07:05the spectrum of abilities and
• 07:07interests.
• 07:09And you have to help
• 07:10them all.
• 07:11And so that's the other
• 07:12piece that I think sometimes
• 07:13people don't
• 07:15often think of.
• 07:17I use this term with
• 07:18love. I used to call
• 07:19my children my human need
• 07:21machines, and now I call
• 07:22them my child human need
• 07:24machines and my adult human
• 07:24need machines, meaning my
• 07:26machines, meaning my residents,
• 07:28because you really do spend
• 07:29a lot of time getting
• 07:30to know them and addressing
• 07:32their questions and concerns about
• 07:33both the immediate
• 07:35and their long term future.
• 07:37And you're gonna have several
• 07:39of them, and they are
• 07:40with you for a long
• 07:41time. And so I think
• 07:41it's just important before you
• 07:43even think like, oh, I
• 07:44wanna be a program director
• 07:45to stop and ask yourself.
• 07:47Do I?
• 07:49Is this actually the job
• 07:50that I think it is?
• 07:51So So then I'll let
• 07:52Lisa sort
• 07:53of talk a little bit
• 07:54about her perspective.
• 07:56Thanks, Rachel. And I think
• 07:57that,
• 07:58that's a great segue. And
• 07:59I think as you were
• 08:00talking, I was thinking a
• 08:02lot of the same things
• 08:03that, you know, I actually,
• 08:04I think,
• 08:05came into my holding educational
• 08:07leadership roles relatively
• 08:09later in my career.
• 08:11And I had done a
• 08:12lot more of
• 08:14the sort of teaching and
• 08:16educational scholarship and things like
• 08:17that earlier in my career
• 08:19while I also
• 08:20took on some roles and
• 08:22responsibilities with clinical operations,
• 08:24in which I was still
• 08:25really close to to trainees.
• 08:27So I'll kind of back
• 08:28up and give you a
• 08:29little bit more,
• 08:31of where I came from
• 08:32and how I got to
• 08:33here, which is I did
• 08:35my pediatric residency,
• 08:36at the Children's Hospital of
• 08:38Philadelphia where I also was
• 08:40a chief resident,
• 08:41after I completed my three
• 08:43years of training there. And
• 08:45I think that kind of
• 08:46gave me the spark of
• 08:48wanting to eventually
• 08:50be in educational
• 08:52program leadership because at that
• 08:54time, I was really
• 08:56excited by,
• 08:58a lot of things Rachel
• 08:59just mentioned. It was the
• 09:00operations. It was thinking about
• 09:03how we were creating a
• 09:04new schedule that was gonna
• 09:06allow interns to work sixteen
• 09:07hour shifts instead of twenty
• 09:09four hour shifts. So kind
• 09:10of thinking about how you
• 09:11do that on a large
• 09:12scale
• 09:13while you're also sort of
• 09:15supporting people through change.
• 09:17So I those were the
• 09:18things that I really liked,
• 09:20you know, in that position.
• 09:23I decided to subspecialize.
• 09:25I love pediatric intensive care
• 09:27medicine, and so I took
• 09:29a little bit of a
• 09:30break, I think, from kind
• 09:31of pursuing, you know, educational
• 09:33leadership and that I completed
• 09:34a three year fellowship,
• 09:37in pediatric critical care at
• 09:38Boston Children's Hospital.
• 09:40And while I was in
• 09:41fellowship, I
• 09:44try
• 09:47or so in addition to
• 09:49all of the responsibilities
• 09:51of fellowship, I was seeking
• 09:52opportunities
• 09:54to be involved
• 09:55with the residency program there,
• 09:58gear teaching within my own
• 09:59fellowship,
• 10:00taking advantage of,
• 10:03formal courses in teaching and
• 10:06education that were guided towards
• 10:08trainees.
• 10:09So I took the postgraduate
• 10:11medical educator course,
• 10:13that the Harvard BC Institute
• 10:15offers,
• 10:16for trainees,
• 10:17things like that. I think
• 10:18just to, again, kind of
• 10:19expose myself and and build
• 10:21up some skills in all
• 10:22of the domains of what
• 10:24it means to be an
• 10:24educator.
• 10:26And then I I tied
• 10:27my scholarship project,
• 10:29in fellowship
• 10:30to medical education. And so
• 10:33I was really interested in
• 10:34looking at applying different types
• 10:36of learning theories, so test
• 10:39enhanced learning and spaced,
• 10:40learning methodologies
• 10:42to video based learning. So
• 10:43I was really interested in
• 10:45how technology and innovation
• 10:47and different types of teaching,
• 10:49I think, were sort of
• 10:50starting to,
• 10:52make their way into the
• 10:54learning environment,
• 10:55especially as we are adapting
• 10:57as
• 10:58with who our new learners
• 10:59are, which are those who
• 11:00are really based in in
• 11:02technology
• 11:03savviness.
• 11:04So after fellowship,
• 11:06I took a clinical position
• 11:08at Boston Children's Hospital. And
• 11:11because I had connections through
• 11:12fellowship,
• 11:13made my way onto a
• 11:15variety of committees within the
• 11:17fellowship. So I joined the,
• 11:20the different resident fellowship committees
• 11:22that were focused on,
• 11:24evaluating
• 11:25fellows. I was,
• 11:27often a a junior faculty
• 11:29who was reached out to
• 11:30to do near peer mentoring,
• 11:32for fellows who were struggling
• 11:34in fellowship.
• 11:35And those things, I I
• 11:36think, were really formative experiences
• 11:39to, I think, push me
• 11:40forward to say, like, these
• 11:41I have these skills. I
• 11:42like developing these skills, and
• 11:44I wanna think about how
• 11:45to make a career out
• 11:46of this.
• 11:47So similar to Rachel, after
• 11:49two years at Boston Children's,
• 11:50I was thinking a lot
• 11:51about what was going on
• 11:52in not only my professional
• 11:54life and my personal life.
• 11:56And I made the decision
• 11:57to go to Tufts,
• 11:58medical center,
• 12:00to work in a little
• 12:01bit of a smaller group
• 12:02where I was,
• 12:04quote, unquote, a big fish
• 12:05in a small pond
• 12:06and was even closer to
• 12:08the the resident trainees who
• 12:10were there.
• 12:11And so, unfortunately, at the
• 12:12time,
• 12:14there was not an opening,
• 12:16for a program leader in
• 12:17their residency program. But I
• 12:19think recognizing that I already
• 12:21had
• 12:22a a skill set that
• 12:23could lend itself well to
• 12:24the residency. I was pulled
• 12:26in very early on as
• 12:27a core faculty member.
• 12:29I took on the residency
• 12:30rotation,
• 12:31in the PICU.
• 12:33I made my connections with
• 12:35Tufts, University School of Medicine,
• 12:37and I
• 12:38I met with the PhD
• 12:40educator there who,
• 12:42does all of the faculty
• 12:43development for for faculty at
• 12:45Tufts. And I very quickly
• 12:47got involved with medical student.
• 12:52And so a lot of
• 12:53this, I tell you because
• 12:54I think it's
• 12:56finding the people who are
• 12:58gonna help mentor you through
• 12:59your career and learning what
• 13:01opportunities
• 13:02you may take risks on
• 13:03and say yes to. And
• 13:05I think about that as
• 13:06in who are the people
• 13:07that I trust.
• 13:08And if I trust them,
• 13:09it may be an experience
• 13:11that I've never done before,
• 13:12but I'm gonna say yes
• 13:13to it because it's gonna
• 13:15help me develop maybe some
• 13:16new skills. And if I
• 13:17have the mentorship, then I
• 13:19believe that I can be
• 13:20successful.
• 13:22And so I also became
• 13:23the medical director of the
• 13:25PICU at that time,
• 13:26in which case, again, a
• 13:27lot of my focus was
• 13:29the residents were our frontline
• 13:31providers. So how do I
• 13:32integrate their education as the
• 13:34residency
• 13:36rotation director into the clinical
• 13:38operations? And that was real
• 13:42for about,
• 13:44I think, three or four
• 13:45years,
• 13:46and opening,
• 13:47for an associate residency program
• 13:50director came to be, and
• 13:52I applied for that and
• 13:53got that position. So prior
• 13:55to my fellowship position here
• 13:57at Yale, I spent three
• 13:58years,
• 13:59three years, yeah, as an
• 14:01associate residency program director for
• 14:03the Tufts Pediatric
• 14:04Residency
• 14:05Program. I joined the team
• 14:08in twenty twenty one, in
• 14:09the fall. And in January
• 14:11of twenty twenty two, Tufts
• 14:13announced that they were closing
• 14:15their inpatient pediatric spaces,
• 14:17which meant that the residency
• 14:19program was going to undergo
• 14:20an enormous change.
• 14:22And so
• 14:24I was really excited to
• 14:26be in that role during
• 14:27that time because there is
• 14:28a lot of new uncharted
• 14:29territory to to work through.
• 14:31And I think being able
• 14:33to have the space to,
• 14:34I think, innovate and be
• 14:35creative
• 14:36and support learners through a
• 14:38really difficult time was something
• 14:39that I also continue to
• 14:41find really valuable.
• 14:42And so I stayed in
• 14:44that position,
• 14:45until
• 14:46our last,
• 14:47group of residents graduated.
• 14:49And in that last year
• 14:51of,
• 14:52the program, I thought really
• 14:54hard long and hard about
• 14:56what was my career gonna
• 14:57look like going from here.
• 15:00And so I decided to
• 15:01take a leap and transition
• 15:03from residency to fellowship,
• 15:05when this position at Yale
• 15:07opened up. And I think
• 15:08for me, that's been really
• 15:09fun to
• 15:11see how the skills that
• 15:12I've developed in a variety
• 15:13of different arenas are translatable
• 15:16across different
• 15:18leadership
• 15:19positions in education.
• 15:21And so I like now
• 15:24that my learners are at
• 15:26a at the next level
• 15:27of maturity,
• 15:28that I get to focus
• 15:29a lot on professional development,
• 15:32and that my curriculum and
• 15:34sort of focus of my
• 15:35fellowship is even closer to
• 15:37who I am as a
• 15:38practicing,
• 15:39clinician. So I think those
• 15:41are the things that are
• 15:42I'm really enjoying right now
• 15:44about being in a fellowship,
• 15:45leadership role. And then Panina
• 15:48had mentioned
• 15:49my involvement in,
• 15:51the Association of Pediatric Program
• 15:53Directors.
• 15:54And I think that I
• 15:55would I would sort of
• 15:57share as a, like, I
• 15:59was really nervous about applying
• 16:01for that position because I
• 16:02was like, who am I?
• 16:03Like, I've been an APD
• 16:04for, like, a hot six
• 16:05months, and, like,
• 16:07what do I know about
• 16:08anything? And so I was
• 16:10really,
• 16:11surprised, I think, when I
• 16:13got the position, and it's
• 16:14been really fun, I think,
• 16:15to also,
• 16:17you know, kind of
• 16:18bleed into the fact supporting
• 16:20the faculty side of educational
• 16:23leadership. And so that's been
• 16:24really fun for me to
• 16:25build my network
• 16:27and connections.
• 16:28And I see that now
• 16:29in my role in fellowship.
• 16:30Right? I see the residents
• 16:32who are coming from a
• 16:32variety of different programs where
• 16:34I know their program leaders,
• 16:35and I think then looking
• 16:37at their letters of recommendation
• 16:38and things like that, I
• 16:39think, is only more additive
• 16:42to my ability to
• 16:48and so I think the
• 16:49national organization,
• 16:52plug is, like, apply for
• 16:53things. Apply for things that
• 16:54you feel like you have
• 16:55the bandwidth for because this
• 16:57is how you form those
• 16:58connections professionally,
• 17:00because you just never know,
• 17:01I think, where your career
• 17:02is gonna go.
• 17:04And And so yeah. So
• 17:05maybe I'll stop there, and
• 17:06we can
• 17:07take some questions, or we
• 17:09can go keep going back
• 17:10and forth, Rachel.
• 17:17Questions in the chat are
• 17:19also welcome.
• 17:21So let me start off
• 17:22with the two of you.
• 17:23I'm just you know, very
• 17:25often,
• 17:27I'll have junior faculty especially,
• 17:29or I I would also
• 17:31say trainees,
• 17:33come to me
• 17:34and say, well, how do
• 17:35you get protected time for
• 17:37these,
• 17:38for educational leadership or for
• 17:41education?
• 17:42So I'm gonna toss that
• 17:43question to you.
• 17:49I think
• 17:50I the first question that
• 17:52I offer when people say
• 17:53that to me, right, is,
• 17:55like,
• 17:56you can think that, like,
• 17:58I want protected time to
• 17:59do this. I will tell
• 18:00you right now that most
• 18:02of us in sort of
• 18:03educational leadership time spend more
• 18:05time doing the job
• 18:07than is protected.
• 18:09Right? And so if if
• 18:10it's that you are looking
• 18:12to sort of have yeah.
• 18:13And there's no there is
• 18:15no judgment in this. Right?
• 18:16But if people are looking
• 18:17to have kind of a
• 18:19lighter plate,
• 18:20I always say this might
• 18:22not be the way to
• 18:22do that,
• 18:24because I can assure you
• 18:25the amount of responsibilities
• 18:27that come with many protected
• 18:29time roles
• 18:30exceed that protected time as
• 18:32is the case in many
• 18:33things in academics. Right? And
• 18:34and being in in an
• 18:36educational leadership role,
• 18:39and I don't know. Maybe
• 18:40this is true. It was
• 18:41certainly true for my old
• 18:42job in sort of, more
• 18:43traditional medical leadership, but,
• 18:46it's a little bit of
• 18:47a bucket with a hole
• 18:48in the bottom. Right? And
• 18:49so you can pour and
• 18:50pour and pour, but there's
• 18:51a lot that you could
• 18:52do, and you have to
• 18:54sort of choose your priorities.
• 18:56So that's always my first
• 18:58question
• 18:58is,
• 18:59what are you hoping to
• 19:00accomplish with that ask of
• 19:02sort of more protected time?
• 19:05And then I think if
• 19:05you are sort of committed
• 19:07that you want to have
• 19:08the opportunity to develop yourself
• 19:10as a leader and as
• 19:11an educator in the world
• 19:12of education and have thought
• 19:13about the fact that it
• 19:14isn't just,
• 19:15you know, sort of the
• 19:17ability to give more lectures,
• 19:18but you really wanna sort
• 19:19of dive into that.
• 19:22I will tell you right
• 19:23now that anyone who's sort
• 19:25of selecting people to give
• 19:27protected time
• 19:28is always going to look
• 19:29at the short list of
• 19:31people who are already sort
• 19:32of proven value added.
• 19:35So if you are waiting
• 19:37until you have protected time
• 19:38to contribute
• 19:40to the educational
• 19:41milieu
• 19:42at an institution that you're
• 19:44at, you are very unlikely
• 19:46to ever be selected.
• 19:50You added can look like
• 19:52a lot of different things.
• 19:53Right? It can look like
• 19:54being a really committed
• 19:55educator.
• 19:56Right? So for me, if
• 19:57I'm choosing someone to have
• 19:58a role in the residency
• 20:00program,
• 20:01I have to answer to
• 20:02my constituents, which is the
• 20:04residents.
• 20:05And so if if there
• 20:06is someone who spent a
• 20:07long time, who's really recognized
• 20:09as being an incredible teacher
• 20:11on the wards, who creates
• 20:12a positive learning climate, that
• 20:14can be value added.
• 20:15Right? Or is it someone
• 20:17who I know is gonna
• 20:19be willing to sort of
• 20:20be flexible and help out,
• 20:22right, if I need someone
• 20:23who's gonna be able to,
• 20:25you know, interview some candidates
• 20:27for me one year or,
• 20:30join the CCC,
• 20:31which is, you know, you
• 20:33know, it's
• 20:34four hours of commitment twice
• 20:35a year. Right? And that's
• 20:37not gonna come with protected
• 20:38time. Those asks are not
• 20:40gonna come with protected time
• 20:41right at the beginning.
• 20:42But then when there is
• 20:44a role that has protected
• 20:45time,
• 20:47I'm much more apt to
• 20:48sort of be like, well,
• 20:49do I wanna open it
• 20:50up to the masses, or
• 20:51do I wanna sort of
• 20:52have a targeted ask of
• 20:54the five or six people
• 20:55that I know would be
• 20:55great
• 20:56in this role of global
• 20:58health track leader or whatever
• 21:00that role might be that
• 21:01comes with some protected time.
• 21:03That being said,
• 21:05be cautious about saying yes
• 21:07to everything.
• 21:08I got some advice very
• 21:10junior in my career that
• 21:11you should just say yes
• 21:12to everything, and I think
• 21:13the person who gave me
• 21:14that advice didn't know who
• 21:15I was because that was
• 21:17not good advice for me.
• 21:19And I think,
• 21:22instead, think about, is this
• 21:24thing going to sort of
• 21:26give me either exposure
• 21:28to the world of whatever
• 21:31it is, right, in education
• 21:32that you're interested in? Is
• 21:33it gonna give me more
• 21:34exposure to residency? Is it
• 21:35gonna give me more exposure
• 21:36to fellowship leadership?
• 21:37And if the answer is
• 21:39yes,
• 21:39then great. Think about doing
• 21:41it. Right? And then the
• 21:42other question that I would
• 21:44sort of ask is, like,
• 21:45is this a slog?
• 21:47Right? So don't say yes
• 21:49to things that you then
• 21:50are like,
• 21:52I don't wanna respond to
• 21:53this email.
• 21:55There is nothing quite like
• 21:56having a project that you've
• 21:57said yes to that you
• 21:58really are not enjoying. So
• 22:00make sure that those two
• 22:01things are true, that it's
• 22:02giving you exposure to grow
• 22:03your skills in the area
• 22:05that you're interested in, and
• 22:06then also that you kinda
• 22:08find it to be a
• 22:08little bit fun.
• 22:10But you are almost certainly
• 22:11gonna have to say yes
• 22:12to doing a little more
• 22:14before anyone is gonna be
• 22:16able to sort of provide
• 22:17you with that,
• 22:18protected time for a role
• 22:20in leadership. And just also,
• 22:22I say it again,
• 22:23be aware that you will
• 22:25probably not be less busy.
• 22:27You may be a little
• 22:27more flexible, but you aren't
• 22:29going to be less busy,
• 22:31with a role like that.
• 22:34Yeah. And I would echo,
• 22:35I think, all that, you
• 22:37know, Rachel just said. And
• 22:38I think, Penina, to get
• 22:40to your, like, you know,
• 22:41when did I ask or
• 22:42when was the right time
• 22:43to ask for protected time?
• 22:46Similarly, like, early in my
• 22:47career, I didn't. I did
• 22:50this all
• 22:51as a full
• 22:55I really enjoyed it, so
• 22:57it didn't feel burdensome. Like,
• 22:59I was really excited to
• 23:00do a lot of the
• 23:01things that I was doing,
• 23:02and so it made it
• 23:03a lot easier to think
• 23:04about it as, like,
• 23:06I like this. This is
• 23:07helping me, like, be who
• 23:09I am and be who
• 23:10I wanna become.
• 23:12And so I do feel
• 23:13like to the point of,
• 23:14like,
• 23:16you'll do it if it
• 23:18really if you're motivated and
• 23:20you can see how this
• 23:22is really additive to your
• 23:23own professional development.
• 23:25I think when I found
• 23:26it helpful
• 23:27to ask for protected time,
• 23:30I can think of one
• 23:31particular instance, which was in
• 23:33this transition
• 23:34of,
• 23:35the closure of the inpatient
• 23:37units at Tufts, in which
• 23:38case I was going to
• 23:39work clinically at Boston Children's,
• 23:42but keep some educate on
• 23:43my sort of academic role
• 23:45through Tufts University School of
• 23:47Medicine,
• 23:48I recognized that there was
• 23:50a need
• 23:51and an opportunity
• 23:53for someone who is well
• 23:54versed in
• 23:56organizational
• 23:57leadership, creating new programs
• 23:59to,
• 24:01step into
• 24:02a role in creating a
• 24:04new pediatric clerkship site
• 24:06and
• 24:07new,
• 24:09elective
• 24:10and acting intern rotations
• 24:12in a new clinical site,
• 24:15where I had the connection
• 24:16as being someone who had
• 24:17been in that site before.
• 24:19And so I
• 24:20raised my hand and said,
• 24:22I I'll do this,
• 24:24knowing that I haven't done
• 24:25a lot in sort of
• 24:26UME landscape.
• 24:28But for this, I need
• 24:30time because you're asking me
• 24:31to create a new
• 24:33program,
• 24:33infrastructure,
• 24:35assessment.
• 24:37And that is what I
• 24:38you know, to Rachel's point,
• 24:39I sort of, like, knew
• 24:40what I needed the time
• 24:41for to work on, and
• 24:42it was like, I knew
• 24:43I was gonna need a
• 24:44lot of that in the
• 24:46beginning of the role and
• 24:47probably as the years went
• 24:48on. Not that I would
• 24:50disclose that I need necessarily,
• 24:51like, less and less protected
• 24:53time for that, but I
• 24:54needed the time
• 24:55to really get that program
• 24:56up and running.
• 24:58And
• 24:59I was able to get
• 25:00that time because I was
• 25:01able to, I think,
• 25:03make the case
• 25:04for the reasons of why
• 25:06and to Rachel's point of,
• 25:07like, what I was gonna
• 25:08deliver on.
• 25:10And I think when those
• 25:11deliverables were seen and that
• 25:13the metrics we were using
• 25:14of around satisfaction
• 25:16of the students in the
• 25:17learning environment, the positive learning
• 25:20culture,
• 25:21things like that, when those,
• 25:23numbers
• 25:24were not dropping in the
• 25:26in the transition of of
• 25:27new rotations, I think that
• 25:29was really additive to say,
• 25:30like, this is important. We're
• 25:32really glad we gave her
• 25:33this time because,
• 25:35we're still having a great
• 25:37educational experience,
• 25:38for our students.
• 25:42Great. Thanks.
• 25:43And by the way, anybody
• 25:45who's on the call is
• 25:46welcome to ask questions. Again,
• 25:48in the chat, you can
• 25:50raise your hand.
• 25:52Oh, go ahead, David.
• 25:53Nobody needs an invitation to
• 25:55ask.
• 25:59So I've I've been working,
• 26:02in the UK for a
• 26:03fair bit, over the past
• 26:05few years. And one of
• 26:06the things that they've been
• 26:07pushing, especially for medical educators
• 26:09or people who are on
• 26:10a track,
• 26:12towards medical education in the
• 26:14GME space has been micro
• 26:16credentials
• 26:17and memberships and sort of
• 26:19that
• 26:20those, like,
• 26:21pieces of tangible paper as
• 26:24they call them. I'm curious
• 26:25if you guys have any
• 26:26thoughts on sort of
• 26:28not just a North American
• 26:29perspective, but also a, you
• 26:31know, do they matter? What
• 26:32what which ones are valuable?
• 26:35And
• 26:35not just from an institutional
• 26:37standpoint or but from a
• 26:38personal standpoint of is it
• 26:40useful to go out and
• 26:41seek that, you know, MHPE
• 26:43from UIC,
• 26:45or
• 26:46is it actually more useful
• 26:47to do the local MHS
• 26:49and engage with, you know,
• 26:50local resources? And and not
• 26:52saying that Janet or any
• 26:53of the other folks are
• 26:54not fantastic and excellent and
• 26:55whatnot, but just
• 26:58from your perspectives.
• 27:02Yeah. I mean, being someone
• 27:03who doesn't have a formal
• 27:04master's degree in education,
• 27:06it doesn't mean that now
• 27:08at this point in my
• 27:09career, I'm not thinking about
• 27:10that. I am. And I
• 27:12think for me, it's been
• 27:14what's really been important and
• 27:16with some advice that I
• 27:16had gotten early on in
• 27:18my career was
• 27:19it may be different from
• 27:20what Rachel's heard or what
• 27:22other people have experienced, but
• 27:24was
• 27:25it's important to get experience.
• 27:27And so I started with
• 27:29getting experience and finding myself
• 27:32the things that, again, I
• 27:33think were gonna kind of
• 27:35push me in the career
• 27:36direction so that when I
• 27:37found that it was time
• 27:39to think about
• 27:40a formalized degree in education
• 27:43or medical education,
• 27:45I feel like I am
• 27:45now a better candidate for
• 27:47a program like that because
• 27:48I know what I'm looking
• 27:50for in terms of what
• 27:51I need out of that
• 27:52program. And it doesn't mean
• 27:54that I will dismiss all
• 27:55of the other things that
• 27:56I feel like I have
• 27:57along the way sort of
• 27:59built up some
• 28:00credentialing in or experience in.
• 28:02But I think in terms
• 28:03of, like, a formalized
• 28:04degree,
• 28:06where often there's a thesis
• 28:08we're gonna defend at the
• 28:09end. Right? There's some sort
• 28:10of scholarship or project you're
• 28:12putting together.
• 28:13I think for me, it
• 28:14was sort of really important
• 28:15to get to the point
• 28:16where it's like, okay. I
• 28:17know, like, what methodology I'm
• 28:19looking for additional
• 28:20support in. I sort of
• 28:22have a well defined or
• 28:23thought on what a project
• 28:24will be, and I know
• 28:26how then the degree is
• 28:27going to help catapult me
• 28:29or or be a catalyst
• 28:31for my career moving forward.
• 28:33So it's not to say
• 28:34that I didn't do formalized
• 28:36courses along the way. I
• 28:37did take advantage of several
• 28:39of the Harvard Macy Institute
• 28:41courses,
• 28:42early in my career.
• 28:43I sought out other,
• 28:46sort of courses and classes
• 28:47through professional organizations
• 28:50that necessarily weren't like a
• 28:51full certificate program, but I
• 28:53think I sort of took
• 28:54those as I found they
• 28:56were helpful to what I
• 28:57needed at at various states
• 28:59in my career.
• 29:04Yeah. I mean, I think,
• 29:06you know, from, like, a
• 29:07marketability
• 29:08point of view, if you're,
• 29:10you know, not if you're
• 29:11thinking about, you know, sort
• 29:12of institutional transfer and things
• 29:15like that, like, yeah, having
• 29:17a degree is gonna it
• 29:19it it it is something
• 29:20there.
• 29:22I think there's lots of
• 29:23ways
• 29:23am I frozen? No. Okay.
• 29:25I think there's lots of
• 29:26ways to get the skills
• 29:28that you need, though, to
• 29:29sort of Lisa's point.
• 29:32I happen to have
• 29:33two masters in education because
• 29:35I was the teacher before
• 29:36I went to medical school,
• 29:38and then have one in
• 29:39MHPE. And, like, to be
• 29:41honest, like, what I got
• 29:43out of my MHPE
• 29:44program in terms of sort
• 29:45of my own
• 29:47growth as an educator,
• 29:49I think I probably could
• 29:50have gotten those same skills
• 29:52and knowledge with a little
• 29:53less both financial and time
• 29:55investment.
• 29:57But I'm still happy I
• 29:59did it.
• 30:00And I think, you know,
• 30:01again, it sort of depends
• 30:02on what you're hoping
• 30:04to,
• 30:06where you're hoping your sort
• 30:07of educational leadership role is
• 30:08gonna take you. I mean,
• 30:10I have a number of
• 30:11certificates in quality improvement
• 30:13from my past life that
• 30:14I think are probably more
• 30:15relevant and useful
• 30:17in what I do now
• 30:19than anything I gained in
• 30:20any kind of education.
• 30:22So there's the thing that
• 30:23you need to do the
• 30:24job well, and then there's
• 30:25the thing that, you know,
• 30:26might sort of help grow
• 30:27your skill set as an
• 30:28educator or, you know, your
• 30:30or your marketability as an
• 30:31educator.
• 30:32And those are sometimes the
• 30:33same thing, but not always.
• 30:34But I think I have
• 30:35a different perspective because I
• 30:37already had a master's in
• 30:38education before I was a
• 30:39doctor.
• 30:40So things around objectives and
• 30:41Bloom's taxonomy taxonomy
• 30:43and, you know, sort of
• 30:44instructional methods,
• 30:46they're not actually that different
• 30:48when you're talking about a
• 30:49thirteen year old than when
• 30:49you're talking about a thirty
• 30:50year old. There are actually
• 30:51a lot of overlap there.
• 30:53And and so I think
• 30:55my perspective on some of
• 30:56those micro skills was probably
• 30:57a little different because of
• 30:58my background.
• 31:00Yeah. And if I could
• 31:01just jump in, on that,
• 31:03David.
• 31:04Michael, can you unmute? Because
• 31:06if, so I think that
• 31:08both Rachel and Lisa made
• 31:09some really important points. I
• 31:11think that,
• 31:12a degree,
• 31:13if you're thinking about
• 31:15educational
• 31:17scholarship,
• 31:19is very useful useful and
• 31:20or the skills that you
• 31:22get with the degree.
• 31:24And both Rachel and I
• 31:25actually got the MHPE at
• 31:27University of Michigan.
• 31:28Michael got the MHS MED.
• 31:31And so, Michael, it looks
• 31:32like you unmuted yourself if
• 31:33you wanna comment on,
• 31:35perhaps your experience.
• 31:38Yeah. I think,
• 31:39Rachel and Lisa hit the
• 31:41major points. I'll say
• 31:43I really appreciate this idea
• 31:45of you you don't get
• 31:47a degree to get a
• 31:48degree.
• 31:49I think if you have
• 31:50something that you're already working
• 31:51on and you're already gonna
• 31:53have a sort of idea
• 31:54around some methodology and you're
• 31:56looking for
• 31:57some additional expertise around how
• 31:59to make it happen
• 32:01and the timing's right for
• 32:02your personal life, like, that's
• 32:04the time
• 32:07that's the direction you're gonna
• 32:09take your career.
• 32:13And and I agree I
• 32:15so that's why I think,
• 32:15like, whether you choose to
• 32:16do something external or something
• 32:17internal, I would say that
• 32:18the additional benefits of doing
• 32:20something in an internal program
• 32:21is the amazing networking
• 32:23that such a degree offers,
• 32:24both within kind of your
• 32:26home
• 32:27department, the department of pediatrics,
• 32:29or just across where we
• 32:30are at the teaching learning
• 32:31center, and you get to
• 32:31meet all these amazing folks
• 32:33throughout the medical school.
• 32:35So I think,
• 32:36yeah, I I think ultimately
• 32:38having sort of your
• 32:40half baked project already in
• 32:41mind that it's already something
• 32:43you're doing
• 32:44is a big part of
• 32:45then saying, okay. And the
• 32:46degree will really help it
• 32:47be scholarly or really good.
• 32:50If I can make one
• 32:51other comment just related to,
• 32:53I think, just program direction
• 32:54in general. I think there's
• 32:56a and, Rachel, Lisa, I'm
• 32:57really curious to hear your
• 33:00opinion on this.
• 33:01Like, there's this, like, commitment.
• 33:03There's this branch point career
• 33:05based decision I think you
• 33:07make when you go into
• 33:08educational leadership, and,
• 33:10it sort of goes to
• 33:11me like this. Do I
• 33:12wanna be a local
• 33:13like, someone who's gonna be
• 33:14have an excellent local reputation?
• 33:16And in doing so, am
• 33:18I somewhat compromising my trajectory
• 33:20store towards a national reputation
• 33:21when we think about these
• 33:22things in our promotion tracks
• 33:24and whatnot. But I think
• 33:26that,
• 33:26when you sign up for
• 33:28and apply for these
• 33:33there you're,
• 33:34overtly doing it or not,
• 33:35I I think you are
• 33:36committing to to local,
• 33:39you know,
• 33:40notoriety as for lack of
• 33:41better term, than anything else,
• 33:43which I think is is
• 33:44good as long as you're
• 33:45aware of that. I'm curious
• 33:46if the panel agrees.
• 33:52Go ahead, Rachel.
• 33:54I mean, I definitely that's
• 33:56definitely been
• 33:59I don't know. I I
• 34:00would say that that's probably
• 34:01rings true for me, Michael.
• 34:03I think there's ways
• 34:05around it to a certain
• 34:06extent,
• 34:07you know, which is like
• 34:08figuring out the things in
• 34:10your local role that you're
• 34:11good at and then trying
• 34:12to figure out how to
• 34:13market that. Right? So going
• 34:14and doing some workshops at
• 34:15APPD
• 34:16and that kind of thing,
• 34:18I think can absolutely get
• 34:19you a little bit more
• 34:20of a national reputation and
• 34:21then just
• 34:22engaging with other program leaders.
• 34:26You know, I I I
• 34:28think there's ways to do
• 34:29that
• 34:31well,
• 34:32and that could do it.
• 34:33But, certainly,
• 34:35in terms of just strict
• 34:37traditional senses
• 34:39of how one creates a
• 34:40national reputation, which is publishing,
• 34:44yeah.
• 34:45And, like, the reality is
• 34:46is that That's what I
• 34:47was referring to, Rachel. Like,
• 34:48time time meeting with a
• 34:50a resident who's struggling is
• 34:51time not riding your next
• 34:52meeting. I mean That's the
• 34:54difference. While I've been in
• 34:55this meeting, guys, I have
• 34:56received,
• 34:57seven text messages about different
• 34:59residency program issues,
• 35:01that need an urgent response
• 35:03within the next three days.
• 35:04And I'm not exaggerating,
• 35:06and that's
• 35:07normal for me. That is
• 35:08a normal
• 35:09life for me. Right? And
• 35:11so when I'm like, oh,
• 35:12I'm gonna sit down and
• 35:13write this manuscript.
• 35:15I mean, it's a little
• 35:16comical with what time.
• 35:18And so you are sort
• 35:19of making that decision. I
• 35:21I have submitted
• 35:22two
• 35:24manuscripts in the last three
• 35:25years,
• 35:26that I'm a first author
• 35:27on. Right? And there's ways
• 35:28to sort of work around
• 35:30it to, you know, being
• 35:31a senior author on more
• 35:32trainees' papers and things like
• 35:34that that can sort of
• 35:35help
• 35:36grow that.
• 35:37But it's hard to be
• 35:38niche. And we, for a
• 35:39long time at our institution,
• 35:41had a real sort of
• 35:41focus on, like, a niche
• 35:43leadership,
• 35:44unless that niche
• 35:45really, really perfectly aligns with
• 35:48your role as an educational
• 35:49leader. Right? Like, if you're
• 35:51gonna be a leader in
• 35:52sim and you're an ED
• 35:54doc and you're also the
• 35:55program director, like, maybe the
• 35:57stars align, but you have
• 35:58to be very deliberate.
• 36:00And if you're interested in,
• 36:02like, you know, NOWs or
• 36:04bronchiolitis
• 36:05or
• 36:06asthma, it's very hard to
• 36:08make those stars align for
• 36:10sure.
• 36:13Yeah. And I was gonna
• 36:14add to,
• 36:15like, that about the scholarship
• 36:17piece is I think the
• 36:19value
• 36:20in collaborating
• 36:22outside the institution, which I
• 36:24know many of you already
• 36:25do, but I think that
• 36:26is another way that,
• 36:28like, in addition to sort
• 36:29of workshops, which I do
• 36:31think those are things that
• 36:32are tangible that you
• 36:38has advanced in what an
• 36:39educator CV looks like and
• 36:41how that gets put up
• 36:42for promotion. And there's recognition
• 36:44that an educator CV and,
• 36:46Parena, you can correct me
• 36:47if I'm wrong on this,
• 36:48but that an educator CV
• 36:49is gonna look different from
• 36:51a clinical researcher CV or
• 36:53a basic scientist CV. And
• 36:54while,
• 36:56scholarship
• 36:56is still important, I think
• 36:58there's a little bit of
• 36:59a broader definition of what
• 37:01that looks like, you know,
• 37:02for an educator and that
• 37:03there are gonna be some
• 37:04who who will
• 37:05be sort of more niche
• 37:06y in various parts of
• 37:06education. But, like, those may
• 37:07be
• 37:14people who aren't necessarily also
• 37:16in program leadership or are
• 37:18in program leadership, but have
• 37:19a really big team,
• 37:21of associate program directors or
• 37:24other individuals, in which case,
• 37:25like, they are doing
• 37:27some of the work, but
• 37:28they also have an enormous
• 37:29team to, I think, offset
• 37:31some of the burden not
• 37:32burdens, but I think some
• 37:33of the other facets of
• 37:34the of the job
• 37:36that I think in a
• 37:37in a medium small to
• 37:39medium size residency program or
• 37:41fellowship program, the program director
• 37:43is probably doing a lot
• 37:44of that. And, certainly, Rachel,
• 37:45you can tell me if
• 37:46I'm incorrect in that.
• 37:49So I think for me,
• 37:50it's been like, especially as
• 37:51I step into a fellowship
• 37:53role where I have a,
• 37:54like, I have six fellows
• 37:55in my program. So for
• 37:56me to be thinking about
• 37:58what does scholarship look like
• 37:59for me in fellowship, I
• 38:01am thinking a lot more
• 38:02about how am I more
• 38:04present in national organizations
• 38:06that don't, to Rachel's point,
• 38:08like, deter me from what
• 38:09I need to be doing
• 38:10locally but are additive
• 38:12to
• 38:13my career development and network
• 38:14so that I am getting
• 38:15involved in more national collaboration.
• 38:17So for example, I'm helping
• 38:19the critical care community
• 38:21develop a national
• 38:22online flipped classroom,
• 38:24in critical care, and I'm
• 38:26doing one also for, you
• 38:27know, teaching skills across fellowship.
• 38:30I had the opportunity to
• 38:32apply for the council of
• 38:34pediatrics of specialties subspecialties that
• 38:36Penina was referring to in
• 38:37the very beginning as the
• 38:38critical care representative, which I
• 38:40feel like, again, is additive
• 38:41for me in my role
• 38:42as a fellowship director and
• 38:44thinking about,
• 38:45you know, my subspecialty
• 38:47and how pediatrics,
• 38:49the landscape
• 38:50may be changing and who
• 38:51were you who were getting
• 38:53into the field and how
• 38:54you know, kind of thinking
• 38:54at these bigger levels of,
• 38:56like, what's my role in
• 38:57kind of helping to
• 38:59create and continue the pipeline
• 39:01of trainees who are interested
• 39:02in pediatrics. So I I
• 39:04see that as maybe not
• 39:06necessarily exactly what I'm doing
• 39:07locally every day in my
• 39:08role, but I see that
• 39:09as additive,
• 39:11to who I am as
• 39:11a program director. So I
• 39:12think really thinking about when
• 39:14those opportunities arise in national
• 39:16organizations,
• 39:17like, do they make sense
• 39:18for you
• 39:19at the time that they're
• 39:21happening?
• 39:23And that while it does
• 39:25take, I think, a lot
• 39:26of effort to apply for
• 39:27some of them sometimes,
• 39:30sometimes you just never know
• 39:31what's gonna come from them
• 39:32as well. So I'll share
• 39:33a story in which diagnosis
• 39:35is getting a little bit
• 39:36off
• 39:37tar you know, tangent
• 39:41the,
• 39:42APPD's,
• 39:44executive director committee for associate
• 39:46program directors,
• 39:47and I didn't get that
• 39:48position.
• 39:49But what came out of
• 39:50that position was that they
• 39:51were really looking to launch
• 39:53a program on peer mentoring
• 39:55for associate residency program directors
• 39:58through APBD.
• 39:59And peer mentoring has always
• 40:01been something that I've been
• 40:02really passionate about.
• 40:03And so
• 40:04I was like, you know
• 40:05what? Like, this seems like
• 40:07maybe I should do this
• 40:08because it's already kind of,
• 40:09like, put in motion. I
• 40:11would be able to jump
• 40:12into something that's, you know,
• 40:13at the beginning but has
• 40:14some guardrails on what, like,
• 40:17they want it to look
• 40:17like. And at the end
• 40:19of the day, the group
• 40:19is really committed to scholarship
• 40:21out of it. So for
• 40:22me, it it sort of
• 40:23checks off a lot of
• 40:24boxes. It's interest for me.
• 40:25It's joining a group who's
• 40:26committed to scholarship,
• 40:28and it's also building my
• 40:29network. So I think I
• 40:31I had no idea that
• 40:32that would, you know, even
• 40:33be a possibility, and I
• 40:34wouldn't have known if I
• 40:35hadn't put myself out there,
• 40:37and applied for this other
• 40:38position.
• 40:41Great. Thanks.
• 40:43While everybody's thinking about another
• 40:45question, I just wanted to
• 40:46also just bring one thing
• 40:48up in terms of
• 40:49scholarship because we've been talking
• 40:51a lot about scholarship and,
• 40:53you know,
• 40:54and there's two things that
• 40:55come to mind about that.
• 40:57One is,
• 40:58do you need it for
• 40:59promotion on an educational
• 41:01track?
• 41:02And then the second is,
• 41:04why would you even, like,
• 41:06want to do scholarship? And
• 41:08so one of the things
• 41:09that's really important, but it's
• 41:11very, very
• 41:12institutional dependent
• 41:13is
• 41:15what actually counts for promotion.
• 41:18And so
• 41:20in every track to Yale,
• 41:21and we'll just talk about
• 41:22Yale, in every track,
• 41:24teaching, excellent teaching is really
• 41:27important in one of the
• 41:28criteria.
• 41:29When you start talking about
• 41:31scholarship or educational
• 41:32scholarship
• 41:34at Yale,
• 41:36it's important in what we
• 41:37call the clinician educator track,
• 41:40but one can also be
• 41:41very successful as
• 41:43a program
• 41:44director,
• 41:46on the academic
• 41:47clinician track because there's a
• 41:49special part of that track
• 41:51that recognizes
• 41:53local,
• 41:55program leadership.
• 41:57And so I just wanted
• 41:59to kinda make that differentiation
• 42:01that's going to definitely,
• 42:03change in different institutions and
• 42:05will actually vary in departments
• 42:07as to, you know, whether
• 42:09departments
• 42:10kind of,
• 42:12I don't wanna say,
• 42:14whether scholarship is important.
• 42:16The other thing is scholarship
• 42:17on a fella as a
• 42:18fellowship program director
• 42:21is actually required by the
• 42:22ACGME
• 42:23where it's not required for
• 42:25a pediatric
• 42:26residency
• 42:27director, but it really boils
• 42:29down to, I think, and
• 42:30I can't remember Rachel or
• 42:32Lisa who you said it,
• 42:33like, very early on. The
• 42:35bottom line is
• 42:37you have to wanna do
• 42:38it and really love it.
• 42:39Otherwise,
• 42:40like, that's the
• 42:45you just don't wanna get
• 42:47texts about. So you can't
• 42:49force, like, a round peg
• 42:50into a square box. And
• 42:52so I just wanted to
• 42:53make that comment about scholarship.
• 42:55And I know we have
• 42:55only a couple of minutes
• 42:57left, but,
• 42:58any
• 43:00questions,
• 43:01from
• 43:02the audience or from the
• 43:03participants?
• 43:05Just just wanna make sure
• 43:07we get through that.
• 43:10Well, if I was gonna
• 43:11ask you,
• 43:13both of you,
• 43:14what do you think is
• 43:15the one
• 43:16import like, if you're thinking
• 43:18about it,
• 43:20what is one important thing
• 43:22that perhaps you haven't said
• 43:23that you just would wanna
• 43:25communicate
• 43:26to,
• 43:29the audience or the participants
• 43:31about load about program leadership
• 43:34that you haven't said so
• 43:35far or had that hasn't
• 43:37come up.
• 43:40I think one thing that
• 43:41I would emphasize
• 43:42is as you
• 43:45go on in your career,
• 43:46the importance of mentorship,
• 43:49and finding those people, I
• 43:50think, who you can have
• 43:53real conversations with about,
• 43:55I think, your values, what
• 43:57you're looking for, but who
• 43:59also become
• 44:01support to you when you're
• 44:02in this role. Because I
• 44:04think to Rachel's point, like,
• 44:07she just got seven text
• 44:08messages about things that need
• 44:09urgent needs. Right? And sometimes
• 44:11it's really helpful to have
• 44:12that person that you're like,
• 44:13okay.
• 44:14Like, help me sort through
• 44:15this a little bit. Like,
• 44:17help me understand,
• 44:19like,
• 44:20your approach or an approach
• 44:21to this. Because I think
• 44:22sometimes we also really deal
• 44:24with a lot of sensitive
• 44:25issues around our trainees and
• 44:27our educational learning environments.
• 44:29And so I think it's
• 44:30really helpful to have a
• 44:32team around you of mentors,
• 44:33whether or not that's locally,
• 44:35whether or not that's regionally,
• 44:37nationally,
• 44:38where I think you can
• 44:39engage in some discussions about,
• 44:41you know, how do you
• 44:42manage some of the difficult
• 44:43parts,
• 44:44of these roles,
• 44:46and how do you,
• 44:48I think, keep, you know,
• 44:49your own boundaries, to use
• 44:51Rachel's word earlier. I think,
• 44:53for me, that's something that
• 44:55I think has challenged me
• 44:56along the way at different
• 44:58points in time. And so
• 44:59I just would kind of
• 45:00echo on that importance of
• 45:02of mentorship.
• 45:03Yeah.
• 45:09I will say two things.
• 45:11One, I think, is an
• 45:12area of vulnerability in the
• 45:13role and one that I
• 45:14think is a is a
• 45:15real area of strength in
• 45:16the role. So to sort
• 45:18of echo and then even
• 45:20amplify
• 45:21what Lisa said, having people
• 45:23who can help you sort
• 45:25of process this job and
• 45:26think through problems is invaluable.
• 45:29And remember that mentorship doesn't
• 45:31always have to go from
• 45:32me up. Right? It can
• 45:33go from me down. Right?
• 45:34So one of the things
• 45:35that I've learned, right, is,
• 45:37like, getting to be close
• 45:38with my chief residents is
• 45:39is crucial for me because
• 45:41I can sort of hear
• 45:42from them, like, what is
• 45:43the actual situation?
• 45:45Right? Not what I
• 45:50and creating those sort of,
• 45:52transparent
• 45:53bidirectional
• 45:54relationships
• 45:55around you is really important.
• 45:58I am a,
• 46:00fiercely independent human being. I
• 46:02do not like help. You
• 46:04cannot do a job like
• 46:05this without having help.
• 46:07And I think that is
• 46:08something that you just have
• 46:09to know about yourself before
• 46:11you
• 46:12try to do it. Right?
• 46:13If you don't like to
• 46:14share
• 46:15your ideas and thoughts and
• 46:16hear honest feedback about your
• 46:18ideas and thoughts, this job
• 46:19will be impossible.
• 46:22And then the those sort
• 46:23of more positive thing that
• 46:24I'll say,
• 46:25is that it is,
• 46:27like,
• 46:28really
• 46:29deeply
• 46:30fulfilling work,
• 46:32if it's the right fit
• 46:33for you. I mean, I
• 46:34do call them my adult
• 46:35mean machines, but I call
• 46:36them that with, like, love.
• 46:39Right? Like, I really,
• 46:40I think the opportunity to
• 46:42get to be
• 46:43a really big part
• 46:45of someone's training trajectory
• 46:47is an incredible privilege.
• 46:49Right? Like, people are going
• 46:51to do work either better
• 46:53or worse because of me.
• 46:55And I think knowing that
• 46:57can really feel like, okay.
• 46:58So, like, what decision am
• 47:00I gonna make today
• 47:01to help them be a
• 47:02better doctor tomorrow?
• 47:04And, you know, I,
• 47:06you know, it's a little
• 47:07cheesy. Right? But I literally
• 47:09will say out loud both
• 47:10on recruitment and routinely to
• 47:11residents that,
• 47:13I have a duty to
• 47:14the patients that they're gonna
• 47:15serve fifteen years from now.
• 47:16And I take that duty
• 47:17seriously, but it's also a
• 47:18privilege, right, to really help
• 47:20people think through how are
• 47:21they gonna have fulfilling careers,
• 47:24and be good pediatricians.
• 47:26And I think,
• 47:29when you really can feel
• 47:30that, right, and get to
• 47:31know residents well and see
• 47:33all of their wonderful unique
• 47:34strengths
• 47:35and the things that maybe
• 47:36they need some help with,
• 47:38the job is definitely worth
• 47:39it. Right? So I I
• 47:41like to tell people, go
• 47:42ahead, eyes wide open.
• 47:43It's not an easy job,
• 47:46but it is,
• 47:48a really fulfilling one if
• 47:49it's the right fit for
• 47:50you, if if you're if
• 47:51you're willing to not be
• 47:52an island.
• 47:59I love this. I agree
• 48:00with Kathleen. It's been incredibly
• 48:03informative and helpful, and you
• 48:04guys rock.
• 48:06So thank you both so
• 48:08much. Really,
• 48:09appreciate it. You're both just
• 48:10such amazing
• 48:12role models,
• 48:14as
• 48:15educators
• 48:15and as leaders. And so
• 48:18I'm super grateful
• 48:19to have you,
• 48:22on our, you know, kind
• 48:23of as part of our
• 48:24educational leadership and really appreciate
• 48:27the time that you've spent
• 48:28just sharing your experiences.
• 48:31So
• 48:32thank you both so much
• 48:33and
• 48:35see everybody in another couple
• 48:36of weeks, with our next
• 48:38session, which I think is
• 48:39Jaydeep,
• 48:41Tal Walker, who's gonna be
• 48:42talking about, you know, kind
• 48:44of more on the medical
• 48:46student
• 48:47level and just
• 48:49how we can help our
• 48:53have clinical judgments. So,
• 48:56thank you all. Have a
• 48:57good day.
• 48:59Thank you, guys.