Yale Symposium on Holocaust and Genocide: Mandel

Transcript

• 00:06Introduce now our next speaker,
• 00:08Professor Ruth Mandel,
• 00:09who's going to speak on
• 00:11the ethics of remembrance,
• 00:12Holocaust memorials and counter
• 00:14memorials in contemporary Europe.
• 00:16And just a few things about
• 00:18Professor Mandel please vessel.
• 00:20Ruth Mandel from the University
• 00:22College of London received her PhD
• 00:24from the University of Chicago.
• 00:25Her early work focused on mitigation,
• 00:28excuse me, migration between Turkey,
• 00:30Greece and Germany and her prize winning
• 00:33book Cosmopolitan anxieties Turkish
• 00:34challenges to citizenship and belonging.
• 00:37Germany was based on this research.
• 00:39Her subsequent research in Kazakhstan focused
• 00:42on media and development and migration,
• 00:45and there were numerous articles and the book
• 00:47markets and moralities as stemmed from this.
• 00:50Our current research addresses Holocaust
• 00:52memory and commemoration in Europe,
• 00:54focusing on artist Gunther
• 00:57Demnig Stolpersteine project.
• 00:58She has been the guest professor at
• 01:00the Graduate Institute in Geneva,
• 01:01the University of Vienna,
• 01:03and currently is the Gerhard Weinstock
• 01:05visiting professor of Jewish Studies in
• 01:08the Department of Anthropology at Harvard.
• 01:10She served as vice Dean at
• 01:12University College of London,
• 01:14where she's taught since the 1990s.
• 01:15She was Berlin Prize fellow with
• 01:18the American Academy in Berlin.
• 01:20Then it goes on and on.
• 01:21These,
• 01:21these credentials are quite extraordinary.
• 01:24I thank my friend Andrew Heinrich for
• 01:26suggesting Professor Mandel to us.
• 01:28And we are.
• 01:29We're honored to have you here with us today.
• 01:31So, Ruth,
• 01:32please join us and we'll hear about.
• 01:35Ethics of remembrance Holocaust
• 01:37memorials and counter memorials
• 01:39in contemporary Europe.
• 01:42OK. Thank you. I'm not going
• 01:46to be scrolling back and forth.
• 01:47I'm going to be standing here so you
• 01:50can better appreciate the visuals.
• 01:54I'm very pleased to be here today and
• 01:57I want to thank Mark Mercurio for
• 01:59the invitation and to the Lindenthal
• 02:02family for making this possible.
• 02:05So in the nearly 80 years since
• 02:07the end of World War Two,
• 02:09there have been countless
• 02:11responses to the atrocities.
• 02:13One response to National Socialism and
• 02:15the Holocaust has been through art.
• 02:21Today's talk about Europe's largest
• 02:24decentralized Holocaust Memorial artist,
• 02:27Gunta demmings,
• 02:29strokes steina or stumbling stones?
• 02:33Is the is the topic of today's talk,
• 02:36often known as a counter memorial.
• 02:38I should clarify from the start that
• 02:41the stones actually are flush with the
• 02:43ground in which they're installed,
• 02:44and any stumbling is purely symbolic,
• 02:48so you can have a good sense of
• 02:50what they look like in situ here.
• 02:53Demmings project Handstamps
• 02:55brass plaques with the name,
• 02:58date and place of birth and fate
• 03:01of Nazi victims of persecution.
• 03:04The plaques generally are installed
• 03:06in front of their former homes.
• 03:09His aim is to return their names
• 03:11to their homes and communities.
• 03:13Demining often quotes what he calls a
• 03:16Jewish source that says a person is only
• 03:20forgotten when their name is forgotten.
• 03:22I'll be describing the many meanings
• 03:25of Stolpersteine offer individuals
• 03:27and groups in various locations.
• 03:29The data come from long term research
• 03:32with my colleague Doctor Rachel lair.
• 03:34Rachel and I went to many dedication
• 03:37ceremonies, actually hundreds,
• 03:38sometimes to observe.
• 03:40Other times as participants,
• 03:42we learned that these stumbling stones are
• 03:45controversial and have been celebrated,
• 03:48imitated, banned, and vandalized.
• 03:52We interviewed countless attendees,
• 03:55the organizers,
• 03:56participants, passersby,
• 03:57sponsors,
• 03:58carrying out our research as ethnographers.
• 04:02This entailed participating and
• 04:04observing and focusing on the
• 04:07everyday aspects of the project.
• 04:09We've explored how the stumbling
• 04:12stones articulate with the local
• 04:14and national narratives of the
• 04:17many places they're installed.
• 04:19One of our aims has been to examine
• 04:21how this particular memorial project
• 04:23can assist in the understanding of how
• 04:27Holocaust memory still resonates today.
• 04:32So I'd like to briefly introduce
• 04:34the outline of the talk.
• 04:35So I'll begin by giving some background
• 04:37history of the artist and the project.
• 04:40Then I'll describe a bit about the
• 04:42process of how the stones are installed.
• 04:45Following this, I'll give examples of
• 04:47a number of different installations
• 04:49and different countries to show
• 04:51the diversity of the project.
• 04:53This leads to a discussion about the area
• 04:55that has been a focus of our research,
• 04:58the Nordic countries.
• 04:59After this I'll touch on how music
• 05:02is deployed as an integral part of
• 05:04some ceremonies and how people have
• 05:07personalized the installations.
• 05:09And finally I'll discuss other counter
• 05:12memorials and the afterlives of these stones.
• 05:16Currently there are nearly 100,000 stones
• 05:21in 29 countries throughout Europe.
• 05:25In each country the plaque is inscribed
• 05:27in the local language as seen here.
• 05:30A typical stone will say here lived
• 05:33so and so, date and place of birth,
• 05:36date of deportation and date
• 05:38and place of death if known.
• 05:40Here we see some stones engraved in Greek,
• 05:42German, French, Finnish.
• 05:46Many people familiar with this
• 05:49project assume they are solely for
• 05:51Jewish victims of Nazi Germany.
• 05:53They are in fact also intended for victims
• 05:56of all of all victims of national socialism,
• 06:00including resistors, Roma,
• 06:02Sinti, Jehovah's Witnesses.
• 06:05LGBTQ individuals. However,
• 06:07the overwhelming majority are for Jews.
• 06:12This stone was installed in Oslo,
• 06:15Norway and it commemorates a murdered member
• 06:18of the Norwegian anti Nazi resistance.
• 06:23The project as we know it today
• 06:26began in 1996 when Gunter damning
• 06:29installed the First Stones in Cologne
• 06:32and Berlin as a one time initiative.
• 06:35However, it was noticed by some
• 06:37people who requested stones for
• 06:39their own murdered relatives.
• 06:41Initially, A1 man operation Demmings
• 06:44artwork evolved organically.
• 06:46For many years,
• 06:48he alone crafted the stones and
• 06:50bossed them and installed them.
• 06:52As the project became better known,
• 06:54some municipalities supported him.
• 06:57Eventually,
• 06:57the project expanded to today's team
• 07:00of around a dozen staff researching
• 07:03countless requests from around the world
• 07:06and organizing nonstop installations.
• 07:08In addition,
• 07:09hundreds of volunteers support the
• 07:12project in various ways through research,
• 07:15contacting descendants.
• 07:16Maintaining and polishing the stones,
• 07:19organizing installations,
• 07:21fundraising, and more.
• 07:24Until the pandemic,
• 07:25demining maintained a rigorous
• 07:27travel schedule on the road,
• 07:29installing stones close to 300 days a year.
• 07:33One single stone costs around $130.
• 07:38They're paid for by individual sponsors,
• 07:41groups,
• 07:42municipalities,
• 07:42nonprofit organizations and
• 07:44even national reparation funds.
• 07:49Above all, damning is a conceptual artist
• 07:53on route to an installation with him,
• 07:56one of our companions asked
• 07:58damning if he still had a chance
• 08:00to make his own art these days.
• 08:03Damning was taken aback.
• 08:04He replied. This is the art.
• 08:06It is my lebens back.
• 08:08My life, work and everything that happens
• 08:11after I leave the stone is also art.
• 08:16Hunter Demon grew up in post War
• 08:19West Germany, the son of a German
• 08:22soldier who told him little about his
• 08:24experiences fighting in the Nazi army.
• 08:27Typical of his generation
• 08:29coming of age in the 60s,
• 08:31Gunter was politically engaged.
• 08:33He studied art and was heavily influenced.
• 08:37By Joseph Boyce.
• 08:38Boys was known for the conceptual
• 08:41art form he called social sculpture,
• 08:45a way of thinking about arts
• 08:48potential to transform society.
• 08:49To boys and his followers,
• 08:51art is inherently political.
• 08:55Denning is open about his heritage.
• 08:57He identifies his own work as a
• 08:59response to his personal legacy.
• 09:04Stolpersteine installations
• 09:05are planned far in advance.
• 09:08The stone may be commissioned by
• 09:11individuals such as descendants or
• 09:13grassroots neighborhood organizations,
• 09:15schools, churches.
• 09:17Municipalities.
• 09:17The waiting list can be two years or more.
• 09:23Sponsors are required to provide
• 09:25documentation about the individuals,
• 09:27where they lived and so forth
• 09:30before a stone can be ordered.
• 09:33Sponsors are encouraged to reach out to
• 09:35identify if there's any other descendants
• 09:38in order to let them know about the plans.
• 09:40Often, municipalities,
• 09:42and Germany in particular,
• 09:44provide assistance in the research.
• 09:46Gunter feels it's important to
• 09:48meet the sponsors of the Stones.
• 09:50Equally,
• 09:51many of the descendants and
• 09:53volunteers who spent countless hours
• 09:55organizing the installations and
• 09:57ceremonies cherish the opportunity
• 09:59to meet the artist himself,
• 10:01who's become something of a celebrity.
• 10:05Demnig's motto is one person, one stone.
• 10:09To him, this means that each
• 10:12individual death is acknowledged.
• 10:15These micro memorials contrast to the large,
• 10:18often abstract Holocaust memorials
• 10:21that commemorate the 6 million.
• 10:24The individual nature of each stumbling
• 10:27stone opens a window into a specific life.
• 10:34Stumbling stones deliberately are
• 10:36not mass produced these days.
• 10:39They're individually embossed 1 by
• 10:411 by Demmings colleague Michelle
• 10:43Friedrich Friedlander in Berlin.
• 10:46Deming made a decision not to expand
• 10:49production despite the growing demand.
• 10:52Instead, by creating each
• 10:53unique plaque one at a time,
• 10:56he recognizes the individual's
• 10:58identities and their murders,
• 11:00and hence renders them unforgettable.
• 11:04A personal engagement with ordinary,
• 11:06until now nameless,
• 11:08individuals recognize as a life
• 11:11lived and a life taken away.
• 11:13Demming insists that direct attention is
• 11:16paid to each individual through the slow,
• 11:19artisanal creation of each brass plate.
• 11:23Damning says that the stumbling
• 11:25stones represent the antithesis
• 11:27to the mechanization of Nazi mass
• 11:30murder that denied individuals not
• 11:33only their lives but their names.
• 11:35When he installs the individual stone,
• 11:37he engages with it carefully
• 11:40and methodically,
• 11:41polishing it in a reverential posture.
• 11:46The best way to appreciate to take
• 11:48in the details of the stone is to
• 11:52approach it closely and lean over it.
• 11:54Toward it. This creates an intimate
• 11:57space between the viewer and the stone.
• 12:00Part of what is special about them is that
• 12:03they're explicitly personal and individual,
• 12:05while at the same time implicitly
• 12:08connected to the huge network of
• 12:11scores of thousands of similar stones.
• 12:15This project is the world's
• 12:18largest decentralized memorial.
• 12:20It's both small and expensive,
• 12:23international and intimate.
• 12:26Symbolic and literal.
• 12:29Gunter Demnig chose the epithet,
• 12:31strohschein,
• 12:31or stumbling stone as a reference to
• 12:35the random nature of encountering them.
• 12:38They're meant to be symbolically
• 12:40stumbled across and over.
• 12:42Additionally,
• 12:42it bears the implication of obstruction,
• 12:45such as stumbling block in English.
• 12:48Damning has stated that the
• 12:51intention is for pedestrians to
• 12:53stumble with their hearts and minds.
• 12:56To damning his artwork will
• 12:58never be completed.
• 12:59He recognizes that it's not possible
• 13:01to place stones for all victims.
• 13:07Attentive to kinship,
• 13:09he thoughtfully places the
• 13:10stones in familial arrangements.
• 13:13The Stones for children are placed
• 13:15between parents, as he told us.
• 13:18Now the parents can protect their
• 13:19child as if holding their hands.
• 13:24And he often arranges familial
• 13:27generations and horizontal rows.
• 13:30Moreover, the process of
• 13:32installation often is iterative.
• 13:34He revisits many locations annually and
• 13:37some more frequently to add stones,
• 13:40thereby ensuring a continuity of
• 13:43both attention and engagement.
• 13:48In many of the instances,
• 13:49the sponsors plan a dedication ceremony
• 13:53to accompany the installation.
• 13:56At the sites we visited, we observed
• 13:58a wide variety of such dedications.
• 14:01Some had music, flowers,
• 14:03photographs, speeches, prayers.
• 14:05All of them included biographies
• 14:08of the victims read out.
• 14:11These familiar memory performances and
• 14:13gestures might be seen as conventional.
• 14:17But we also observed less familiar
• 14:20practices and novel rituals.
• 14:22At 1 installation in Berlin,
• 14:24attended by around 30 people,
• 14:26we noted the thought that had
• 14:28gone into a quite elaborate
• 14:30dedication that included music,
• 14:32candles, photographs, singing,
• 14:35song sheets and speeches.
• 14:38The biography of the Family's
• 14:40lives included musical selections,
• 14:42in fact, all those gathered.
• 14:45Holding their song sheets were led in a
• 14:48three-part round of a song Zoom Gali Gali.
• 14:51This is an Israeli folk song celebrating,
• 14:54pioneering and working the land.
• 14:56We were told that it was chosen because
• 14:59one of the victims had been part of a
• 15:02pre war socialist Zionist youth group.
• 15:05This tune was a striking
• 15:07and surprising choice.
• 15:08It reflected the amount of
• 15:10nuanced research that had gone
• 15:11into the ceremonies preparation.
• 15:16The aftermath of the Holocaust
• 15:18dispersed survivors far and wide,
• 15:21severing family ties.
• 15:23Sometimes survivors had no
• 15:25knowledge of whether family
• 15:27members and friends had survived.
• 15:30But these stones have proven to be one
• 15:32way that distant relatives connect.
• 15:35At numerous installations,
• 15:36we met people who were meeting their own
• 15:39cousins for the first time that day,
• 15:41in that place where they shared
• 15:43a relative who had been murdered.
• 15:46This is one of the ways that Stolpersteine
• 15:50can inadvertently reunite families.
• 15:55Another installation in Berlin actually
• 15:58was a reinstallation in front of the
• 16:01former pharmacy owned by Adolf Mokler.
• 16:04Here seemed in the scene
• 16:06in the framed picture.
• 16:08He had been hounded out of Berlin by Nazis
• 16:11who took over an arianist used his store.
• 16:15He fled to South America,
• 16:16where he took his own life.
• 16:18The original Stolpersteine for him had been
• 16:21vandalized by Neo Nazis the year before,
• 16:24along with about a dozen
• 16:26other nearby stumbling stones.
• 16:28Gunter Demining is adamant about
• 16:32replacing any vandalized stones.
• 16:36This particular reinstallation took
• 16:37the form of a political rally.
• 16:40As the crowd gathered,
• 16:42anti fascist banners were unfurled.
• 16:45Political figures,
• 16:46among them the local mayor's
• 16:49high profile national politicians
• 16:51along with international,
• 16:52national and local media, were present.
• 16:56In addition to commemorating
• 16:58a local persecuted Jew,
• 17:00many in the crowd clearly were
• 17:02attracted to the event in order
• 17:04to express solidarity against
• 17:06the growing neo-Nazi movement.
• 17:11On May 30th of 2022, London,
• 17:16England joined the rest of Europe in
• 17:19becoming a site for a stumbling stone,
• 17:22this one for Ada. Fun danzik.
• 17:25Otto was a young Dutch woman
• 17:27working in a paintings conservation
• 17:29studio in central London.
• 17:32Upon learning that her family situation
• 17:34was worsening in the late 30s,
• 17:37she returned to the Netherlands and tried
• 17:39to help them escape with her to London.
• 17:42Instead, the family was arrested,
• 17:44deported and murdered in Auschwitz.
• 17:48Although she was not deported
• 17:50directly from London,
• 17:51Gunter decided that her exceptional
• 17:54situation warranted a stone.
• 17:56Two days after the London installation,
• 17:59the Republic of Ireland became the
• 18:0129th country with Stolpersteine.
• 18:04The Six Stones shown here commemorate
• 18:07Irish citizens and residents caught up in
• 18:10Europe and unable to return to Ireland.
• 18:13Five of them were killed in Auschwitz,
• 18:15and the 6th in Lithuania.
• 18:17These stones in Ireland and
• 18:19England are the first,
• 18:20but may not be the last,
• 18:21and these in their respective countries.
• 18:25Much of our research has focused on
• 18:28the stones in the Nordic countries,
• 18:31particularly Finland,
• 18:33Sweden, Denmark and Norway.
• 18:37Similar to many other places
• 18:39where Jews settled in these lands,
• 18:41many began as itinerant peddlers,
• 18:44the most successful among them.
• 18:47Became owners of dry goods shops,
• 18:49known in Norway, for example,
• 18:51as Yoda boutique Juice Shop.
• 18:56Though Denmark and Norway both were
• 18:58occupied by Nazi Germany in 1940,
• 19:01their experiences of
• 19:03occupation sharply contrasted.
• 19:05For its part, Finland fought
• 19:08alongside Nazi Germany until 1944.
• 19:10While the impact of the war on Jewish
• 19:13citizens differed in these countries,
• 19:15the fates of asylum seeking
• 19:18Jewish refugees proved similar.
• 19:23We attended the first ever installations in
• 19:26Sweden in 2019 where 3 stones were dedicated,
• 19:31including the one you see here.
• 19:33The stones mark an important reckoning
• 19:36with Swedish complicity and are
• 19:38controversial precisely for that reason.
• 19:41The first dedication,
• 19:43attended by numerous international
• 19:45dignitaries, was for Eric Holloa,
• 19:47a stateless refugee who had
• 19:50been born in Berlin in 1896,
• 19:52fled to Sweden in 1938,
• 19:55only to be deported and killed in 1942.
• 20:01Sweden's Jewish population,
• 20:03numbering approximately
• 20:0410,000 before the war,
• 20:07was the largest in the region,
• 20:08composed of Jewish Swedes along
• 20:11with several 1000 refugees.
• 20:13The Sweden claim to be neutral in the war.
• 20:17Numerous Jewish residents,
• 20:19all stateless refugees,
• 20:21were deported and killed.
• 20:24Post war scholars have delved into
• 20:26Sweden's putative neutrality and
• 20:28have shown the many ways that Sweden
• 20:31did accommodate the Nazi regime.
• 20:36When the Nazis demanded that the Finnish
• 20:39army turnover its Jewish soldiers to them,
• 20:42the Finnish General Carl
• 20:44Gustaf Mannerheim refused,
• 20:46protecting them as fellow Finnish soldiers.
• 20:50However, the Nazis refused critical
• 20:53grain shipments to Finland until Eastern
• 20:56European refugee Jews were relinquished.
• 21:00Thus far, 8 refugees have been identified
• 21:03who were deported to death camps
• 21:05murdered in the country's swap for grain.
• 21:10Four of them are memorialized
• 21:12in stumbling stones.
• 21:13This is an image of three
• 21:16Stolpersteine in Helsinki.
• 21:18The stone in the center
• 21:20memorializes A2 year old child,
• 21:22his parents on either side.
• 21:30Most of them of the more
• 21:32than 2000 Jews in Norway.
• 21:35Resided in Oslo and Trondheim.
• 21:38Restrictions on their mobility,
• 21:41education, employment and economy
• 21:43led to mass arrests and loss of
• 21:46citizenship and deportation.
• 21:48In 1942, homegrown Norwegian
• 21:51Nazi members carried out the
• 21:54logistics of the deportation.
• 22:00Those who did not escape or hide.
• 22:03Around 1/3 of the Jewish population in
• 22:08Norway were deported by ship to Auschwitz.
• 22:11This clandestinely taken photograph is
• 22:14of the Nazi Donau ship departing the
• 22:18Oslo Dock with over 500 Jews on it.
• 22:24On their way to Auschwitz.
• 22:28Of the total of 761 deportees,
• 22:32only 38 survived and fewer still returned.
• 22:38But this was not the end of it.
• 22:40Near the end of the war,
• 22:41with the aid of Sweden,
• 22:43several 1000 deported Norwegian
• 22:45non Jews were rescued and returned
• 22:48back to their homes in Norway.
• 22:51However, the surviving Jews who'd
• 22:53been deported were stripped of
• 22:55their Norwegian citizenship
• 22:56during the Quisling regime and
• 22:59their property was confiscated.
• 23:01For the few who wish to return,
• 23:03reinstating their citizenship
• 23:05and regaining their property
• 23:07proved extremely problematic.
• 23:12Norway's Stolpersteine or Snoop Blistein
• 23:15are organized by the local Jewish museums.
• 23:19These museums are part of a larger
• 23:22reparations package from the
• 23:24government from the late 1990s.
• 23:28The Oslo Jewish Museums project was
• 23:31completed just this past September,
• 23:33pictured here at the very same location.
• 23:38Of the donor shown here.
• 23:41Just facing the other way. Umm.
• 23:46Is Norway's Crown Princess Mette Marit,
• 23:49with Gunter Demining and the director
• 23:52of Oslo's Jewish Museum witnessing the
• 23:55installation of the final three stones?
• 24:01The Norwegian Center for Holocaust and
• 24:04Memorial Studies will now be organizing
• 24:06the installation of more stones to
• 24:09memorialize Roma and Sinti from Norway
• 24:11who were disenfranchised and murdered.
• 24:17Denmark's story took a different path.
• 24:19Its first Jewish community was
• 24:21established in the 17th century.
• 24:23Close to 8000 Jews were living there in 1939,
• 24:27including men, many stateless refugees.
• 24:30Denmark capitulated peacefully
• 24:32to the Nazis in 1940.
• 24:36In 1943, the year following Norway's
• 24:39deportation of its Jewish Citizens,
• 24:42Danish Jews learned of a Nazi
• 24:45roundup that was imminent.
• 24:48Fully 90% of Denmark's Jewish
• 24:51population escaped to nearby Sweden in
• 24:54a massive flotilla crossing the choppy
• 24:57Strait between the two countries.
• 25:00Still, nearly 500 Jews were captured
• 25:04and deported to Czechoslovakia to the
• 25:07Theresienstadt concentration camp,
• 25:09where 53 of them died.
• 25:12As opposed to Norway, deported Danish
• 25:16Jews retained their citizenship.
• 25:18Moreover, while imprisoned in Terezin Shnot,
• 25:21the Danish Government monitored them,
• 25:23lobbied for their well-being,
• 25:25and sent care packages via the Red Cross.
• 25:292019 marked the inauguration
• 25:31of Stolpersteine in Denmark,
• 25:33when twelve were dedicated.
• 25:35Since then, dozens more have been installed.
• 25:40Different from some other places
• 25:42with the stones,
• 25:43where they're only laid for those
• 25:45who were murdered, the Danish.
• 25:47Strong person committees have
• 25:49have elected to place stones for
• 25:51people who were liberated,
• 25:53in addition to those who were murdered.
• 25:58The final word on these 3 stones?
• 26:01Befreit. Signifies that the individual
• 26:05was liberated, not murdered.
• 26:07The middle Stone Henny forced her
• 26:10name appears on the Middlestone
• 26:13was one of the very few surviving
• 26:15babies to be born in the
• 26:19Theresienstadt concentration camp.
• 26:20Henny, now 78 years old,
• 26:23was joined by her daughters and
• 26:25grandchildren this past August at
• 26:27the installation of these stones
• 26:29for herself and for her parents.
• 26:34One of the things we observed in
• 26:38countless installation ceremonies
• 26:39has been the presence of music.
• 26:42We heard Klezmer in Berlin,
• 26:45Ladino lullabies sung in Greece,
• 26:48sea shanties in Norway and a
• 26:51wide range of other tunes.
• 26:54The inaugural Stolpersteine
• 26:55installation in Copenhagen was well
• 26:58attended by several hundred members
• 27:00of the Danish Jewish community,
• 27:02as well as local and foreign dignitaries.
• 27:06A violinist was accompanied by a singer.
• 27:09They performed Rojan, Kismet,
• 27:11mandolin, raisins, and almonds.
• 27:13This is a beloved Yiddish lullaby,
• 27:16popularized through an arrangement
• 27:19by Abraham Goldfaden as part
• 27:21of his opera shulamis from.
• 27:241880 The hundreds of people gathered,
• 27:27watched demining dig into the pavement,
• 27:30and placed three stones,
• 27:32after which the music was performed.
• 27:34Attendees spontaneously sang or hummed along,
• 27:38many weeping openly,
• 27:40deeply moved by the familiar
• 27:43music from their childhood.
• 27:45The Yiddish Lullaby tells of a Snow
• 27:48White kid under the cradle that will be
• 27:51traded at market for raisins and almonds.
• 27:53When we interviewed the singer a counter,
• 27:56he explained I could have chosen a Holocaust,
• 27:59lullaby or a ghetto song,
• 28:01but I selected this lullaby for the
• 28:04grandmothers being memorialized.
• 28:11By contrast, in a small town in
• 28:15Western Norway, musicians performed
• 28:17the theme to Schindler's to Spielberg,
• 28:21Schindler's list written by John Williams.
• 28:25When we spoke to the violinist,
• 28:26you can see here, he was proud of
• 28:28having made the selection to him.
• 28:30It was the natural selection.
• 28:34You know to accompany this.
• 28:36And a few days later, at the inaugural
• 28:39installation in Stockholm, Sweden,
• 28:41we heard the Schindler theme once again.
• 28:45Ever since the widespread dissemination and
• 28:48popularity of the film Schindler's List,
• 28:50some scholars have wondered
• 28:52about the film's legacy.
• 28:54Most agreed that it would preserve
• 28:56the memory of the Holocaust.
• 28:58However, some wondered if it would restrict
• 29:01and mold the memory in problematic ways.
• 29:05Over the past couple decades,
• 29:07Schindler's List has indeed
• 29:09become inextricably linked with
• 29:11the Holocaust in popular culture.
• 29:14It often serves as a shorthand,
• 29:16via Hollywood for the atrocity.
• 29:20Many people who have seen the film
• 29:22treated as a kind of complete truth.
• 29:24Having seen it,
• 29:25they now know about the Holocaust,
• 29:27however.
• 29:28Stanley Kubrick wondered whether
• 29:30a film could ever truly represent
• 29:34the Holocaust in its entirety.
• 29:37But when he was asked about Schindler's List,
• 29:39and perhaps this could could do it,
• 29:43he responded.
• 29:44Think that's about the Holocaust?
• 29:46That was about success, wasn't it?
• 29:49The Holocaust is about 6
• 29:51million who get killed.
• 29:53Schindler's List is about 600 who don't.
• 30:02Whereas many installations include
• 30:05planned musical performances,
• 30:07in northern Hungary we observed spontaneous
• 30:10singing by a group of descendants.
• 30:12Having come from three different
• 30:15countries and continents for the event.
• 30:17Their reunion was amplified
• 30:20through their voices.
• 30:21Following the installation
• 30:23and shared family memories,
• 30:25they broke into a well known anthem of
• 30:28Jewish persistence through adversity,
• 30:30Omnious Royal High at
• 30:32the end of the ceremony.
• 30:34Reinforcing this defiant
• 30:36sentiment through song,
• 30:38they followed this song with
• 30:40two others from Jewish liturgy.
• 30:42Indeed, despite the atrocities
• 30:44the relatives experienced,
• 30:46the family lives on 3 generations
• 30:50from 3 continents.
• 30:51Witnessing together that day.
• 30:54When the group shared a lahim,
• 30:56the traditional Jewish toast to life,
• 30:59they were reaffirming both the
• 31:01present and future while defying the
• 31:03past attempt to annihilate them.
• 31:08At the well attended dedication in Dublin,
• 31:11Ireland, the six Stones were placed
• 31:13in front of a primary school once
• 31:16attended by local Jewish children,
• 31:18and I found out later from the
• 31:20principal of the school that the
• 31:22reason this school had so many Jewish
• 31:24children was because it was a school
• 31:26linked to the Protestant church.
• 31:28None of the Catholic Church schools in
• 31:31Ireland would permit Jewish children.
• 31:37This part of the school's history is
• 31:39incorporated into its curriculum,
• 31:41and one of the classrooms is
• 31:43named after one of the victims.
• 31:45So many of the days events
• 31:48involve the school children.
• 31:50The violin teacher LED
• 31:51her students in a medley.
• 31:536 songs of the Holocaust based on the
• 31:57Yiddish song under your White Stars.
• 32:00The composer Brodno and the poet
• 32:02Sutzkever collaborated on this
• 32:04piece while they were trapped
• 32:06together in the Vilna Ghetto.
• 32:08Sutzkever escaped and went on to
• 32:11become an acclaimed Yiddish poet.
• 32:13Brodno was murdered at the
• 32:16Estonian concentration camp Kouga.
• 32:18So the power of music to evoke painful
• 32:21and cherished memories was brought to
• 32:23the fore in all these dedications.
• 32:29For demining, Stolpersteine are
• 32:31about the symbolic returning of
• 32:34the murdered to their residents.
• 32:37By preserving their names,
• 32:39their memories are restored.
• 32:41By contrast, for the descendants,
• 32:44it's about remembering specific
• 32:46relatives who have no gravestones
• 32:49and creating a place to mark and
• 32:52express their individual grief.
• 32:54Occasionally, people wish to
• 32:56personalize the stones they sponsor,
• 32:58such as placing small tokens,
• 33:01stars of David or notes beneath the stones.
• 33:10Californian Howard Shatner,
• 33:12the descendant of Nazi victims,
• 33:15chose to personalize the dedication process
• 33:17for the Berlin Stones he commissioned.
• 33:20He cut and embossed these copper hearts
• 33:23with a transliterated Hebrew word for life.
• 33:27Time to be buried under the stones.
• 33:31So what happens to the stones
• 33:34after they're installed?
• 33:36People continue to engage with them
• 33:38as far as Gunter is concerned,
• 33:40the art continues after
• 33:42the stone is installed.
• 33:44It takes on a life of its own as
• 33:48individuals and groups interact with it.
• 33:51Some towns and cities maintain
• 33:53active websites where people
• 33:55can report damage or vandalism.
• 33:58Many towns and neighborhoods have
• 34:00developed apps for self-guided tours
• 34:03to learn more about the individuals
• 34:05behind the names on the stones.
• 34:07Schoolchildren sometimes make rubbings
• 34:10and incorporate the stones as part
• 34:13of their Holocaust curriculum.
• 34:15In many sites,
• 34:16local groups and neighbors commit to
• 34:20monitoring and polishing the stones.
• 34:22One person told us.
• 34:23I feel as though I have a personal
• 34:26relationship with these dead.
• 34:28I see them and remember them.
• 34:30Every time I pass by.
• 34:32I nod to them, acknowledge them.
• 34:34I know each individual's history.
• 34:37I think about the books that
• 34:39didn't get written,
• 34:39the music that was not composed,
• 34:41the families whose lines were cut short.
• 34:47In the Polish city of Ruthrauff,
• 34:50the former Breslau,
• 34:51a group of school children from the
• 34:54Shalom Alekum Jewish Elementary School,
• 34:57had hoped to install Stolpersteine.
• 35:00They wanted to memorial
• 35:03memorialize Paul Erlich,
• 35:04the architect and former resident of
• 35:07the building that housed their school.
• 35:09Air leak and his family were
• 35:12murdered in today's Onstott.
• 35:14Due to the timing constraints and
• 35:16the long wait for the actual stones,
• 35:18instead they devised their own solution.
• 35:22They painted gold on the
• 35:23flagstones in front of the school
• 35:26to imitate the Stolpersteine.
• 35:28So this choice of memorial points
• 35:29to the power of Stolpersteine
• 35:31A in the public imagination.
• 35:35Which dobberstein are not the
• 35:37only Holocaust Memorial that
• 35:39can be randomly encountered.
• 35:41Found in unexpected places,
• 35:43such counter memorials can be
• 35:46found throughout Europe and beyond.
• 35:49A well known installation is in Budapest.
• 35:52This memorial of bronze shoes scattered
• 35:55along the Bank of the Danube.
• 35:58Memorializes the Jews who were forced
• 36:00to remove their own shoes prior
• 36:03to being murdered and pushed into
• 36:05the river in the winter of 194445.
• 36:15These keys recall the homes of
• 36:17Viennese Jews who lived on this
• 36:20particular street where this is
• 36:23located before they were killed.
• 36:25A tag with the name of a
• 36:28murdered resident hangs from HK.
• 36:30And this was a a grassroots initiative?
• 36:36This suitcase is permanently situated.
• 36:41In a sidewalk in the town of
• 36:44Leiden in the Netherlands,
• 36:45this and five other similar suitcases
• 36:48are located in meaningful spots.
• 36:51Such as the police station
• 36:53where Jews were rounded up.
• 36:55Houses where Jews hit and in front of a
• 36:58Jewish orphanage like stumbling stones.
• 37:01This installation,
• 37:03the keys and the shoes are intended
• 37:05to be encountered unexpectedly.
• 37:10This settlement, more subtle
• 37:13memorial is hidden in plain sight.
• 37:16On the wall. To the right of of this
• 37:19large entryway of a Berlin apartment
• 37:22building is the set of doorbells,
• 37:24each with a name and a buzzer,
• 37:26connected to an apartment.
• 37:28But on the left.
• 37:29Is its mirror image another set of doorbells?
• 37:33But these are silent.
• 37:37One resident in the building, an architect,
• 37:39undertook extensive research into the
• 37:42buildings 83 pre war Jewish residents.
• 37:46He had a nameplate for each individual
• 37:50and family engraved and created the
• 37:53silent Bell board of Polished brass.
• 37:56In lieu of a voice box for the intercom
• 37:58system is a memory plaque listing the
• 38:01concentration and death camps in which
• 38:04the absent residents were killed.
• 38:06In Hebrew, it is written,
• 38:07may they rest in peace.
• 38:10Memorials such as these provoke
• 38:12a range of responses,
• 38:13including surprise and confusion,
• 38:16awe and grief.
• 38:21This image was captured on a
• 38:24Kristallnacht commemoration in Germany.
• 38:26In some places, friends of
• 38:28Stolpersteine committees Polish them
• 38:30on special days such as Kristallnacht.
• 38:33The violent events of Kristallnacht the
• 38:36night of broken glass, 84 years ago.
• 38:40Signaled the critical turning point
• 38:42in the 13 years of the Third Reich.
• 38:46In Germany, the day is more
• 38:48commonly known as Reichs, pogroms,
• 38:50Nacht or the November pogrom.
• 38:53Some in Germany have argued that
• 38:55calling it night of broken glass or
• 38:58Kristallnacht Crystal Knight minimizes
• 39:00the extent of the violence and does
• 39:02not acknowledge those who were killed
• 39:04and the 10s of thousands arrested
• 39:06and put in concentration camps.
• 39:08They claim that the term Kristallnacht
• 39:10makes it sound like a one off event
• 39:13when some windows and storefronts were
• 39:15shattered rather than being the state
• 39:18organized program it actually was.
• 39:20That led to a fundamental escalation
• 39:22of the persecution of Jews in
• 39:25the Holocaust to follow.
• 39:29Some of you may have seen the
• 39:32Stolpersteine photo on the cover
• 39:34of last month's Atlantic magazine.
• 39:36The lead article monuments to the
• 39:39unthinkable by Clint Smith has been
• 39:42widely acknowledged in many media.
• 39:44Thanks to this piece,
• 39:46Stolpersteine are now on the
• 39:48radar of countless people who
• 39:50previously had not heard of them.
• 39:52The Stolpersteine Foundation website
• 39:55received an unprecedented 1,000,000
• 39:57views in the weeks immediately
• 40:00after the issue was released.
• 40:02The thrust of Smith's argument
• 40:04is that the US could learn useful
• 40:07lessons from Germany in terms of
• 40:10memorializing its own genocidal
• 40:11past with respect to acknowledging
• 40:14chattel slavery and the current
• 40:16treatment of black Americans.
• 40:19He but he did not bring much new to
• 40:21the discussion that Susan Nyman so
• 40:23eloquently and comprehensively argued
• 40:25in her book learning from the Germans,
• 40:28race and the memory of Evil.
• 40:32When imagining a 1930s Jewish Sabbath
• 40:35gathering of family and friends in Berlin.
• 40:40Smith's description is rife with stereotypes
• 40:43that actually violate the historical
• 40:45veracity of the period and place.
• 40:48In this era of rising
• 40:50anti-Semitic and racist violence,
• 40:52books such as David Baddiel's Jews
• 40:55don't count and Dara horns people
• 40:58Love Dead Jews have brought important
• 41:00contradictions and complexity to the fore.
• 41:04By contrast, Smith's art depiction doesn't
• 41:07really help to move this discourse forward.
• 41:12Now the pictures here are of a
• 41:15witness stone and stopping stone,
• 41:18two projects in New England,
• 41:20and they're being made to
• 41:23commemorate enslaved people.
• 41:24Both projects have demmings endorsement.
• 41:29They're similarity to Stolpersteine
• 41:31a amplifies their visibility and
• 41:34legitimacy as memorial markers.
• 41:36Smith mentions the witness Stones Project,
• 41:39among others,
• 41:40as an example of American grassroots
• 41:44memorialization to enslave people.
• 41:46Now this slide is very local.
• 41:49It shows two sites in New Haven
• 41:51and two witness stones are placed
• 41:53in front of each location,
• 41:55the party Morris House and the
• 41:57Trinity Church on the green.
• 42:04So to wrap up.
• 42:07This talk has looked at the variety
• 42:10of installations, attitudes,
• 42:11and responses to this exceptional project.
• 42:15I've tried to address what the
• 42:18Stolpersteine project tells us about
• 42:20marking particular days and places
• 42:22of terror while at the same time
• 42:26remembering the singular individuals
• 42:28amidst the murdered multitudes.
• 42:30And just as we have seen,
• 42:32Gunter Jenning's Stolpersteine
• 42:33project is just one of many art
• 42:37initiatives that attempt to address
• 42:40mass atrocities of the Holocaust.
• 42:42One way to understand the Stroper Stein,
• 42:45as well as some of the other projects,
• 42:47is as counter memorials.
• 42:49A counter memorial can be thought
• 42:52of as a political form of art that
• 42:55is by definition participatory.
• 42:57People encounter them and must
• 43:00choose how to respond or not.
• 43:03They're non prescriptive.
• 43:04People bring and take away a plethora
• 43:07of emotions, ideas and memories.
• 43:10The scholar James Young reminds us that
• 43:14counter memorials remain a process,
• 43:16not an answer,
• 43:17a place that provides time for memorial,
• 43:20reflection, contemplation and learning.
• 43:26Perhaps This is why they're so well received,
• 43:29why increasing numbers of individuals,
• 43:31towns and countries seek to join the project.
• 43:36So what started as a single event
• 43:39in 1996 in Germany has grown
• 43:42exponentially to become the
• 43:43world's largest counter memorial.
• 43:46As countries reexamine their
• 43:49problematic histories,
• 43:50some have chosen to join the
• 43:53Stolpersteine project.
• 43:54Becoming part of this international
• 43:57memorial facilitates a shift in public
• 44:00national narratives about the past,
• 44:03about responsibility and about complicity.
• 44:08For example, we were told about
• 44:11a small town in northern Norway
• 44:13that was eager to join in.
• 44:16They were inspired by the attention
• 44:19in the media throughout Norway about
• 44:22installations that range from the
• 44:24Arctic Circle down to the South.
• 44:27So they contacted the Jewish Museum
• 44:30in Oslo and asked for their own stone.
• 44:33The Jewish Museum did some research,
• 44:36looked into it,
• 44:37and informed them that no one had been
• 44:40deported from their town and murdered.
• 44:43When they heard this, this little
• 44:46town expressed their disappointment.
• 44:48No Jews had been deported from
• 44:49the town since.
• 44:50No Jew had ever lived there.
• 44:53By contrast, Poland,
• 44:54where millions of Jews had
• 44:56lived and were murdered,
• 44:58has largely blocked efforts for
• 45:01Stolpersteine installations for
• 45:04very problematic political reasons.
• 45:07Other localities,
• 45:08groups and individuals object
• 45:10to Stolpersteine A,
• 45:11and for a variety of reasons.
• 45:14Some fear their placement will
• 45:16reduce their property values,
• 45:17and they've even sued local
• 45:19municipalities to have them removed.
• 45:22Others do not like to see the
• 45:24reminder of their national shame.
• 45:27Within the Jewish community,
• 45:29there's some objections as well.
• 45:31Leaders in some places have banned them.
• 45:35Claiming that it would be a desecration
• 45:38to step on the names of the murdered.
• 45:41Some of the objections stem
• 45:43from a comparison between the
• 45:46stumbling stones and gravestones.
• 45:48However,
• 45:49the artist demining reminds us that
• 45:51the stones deliberately are placed in
• 45:54front of homes where people lived,
• 45:56not where they died.
• 45:58None of them are gravestones.
• 46:00Still, this is not necessarily the
• 46:02most salient aspect for descendants,
• 46:05many of whom do see them as places of memory,
• 46:08like a gravestone.
• 46:09Some see it serving as a symbolic gravestone,
• 46:13a place to come and remember their lost ones.
• 46:18And just very briefly,
• 46:19I'd like to point out some of
• 46:21the ethical issues raised,
• 46:23you know,
• 46:24that we've identified during the research.
• 46:27For example,
• 46:28the implications of the project
• 46:31being treated as art versus
• 46:34a memory memorial project.
• 46:36And sometimes this comes into conflict.
• 46:39Also how local and national
• 46:42governments use them for their
• 46:45own purposes to morally cleanse
• 46:48themselves at very little cost.
• 46:51Of their difficult and and shameful history.
• 46:56There's the issue of historical
• 46:58revisionism about music,
• 46:59rituals at the installations and
• 47:02ceremonies not aligning with the people
• 47:06who are actually being memorialized.
• 47:08And, and as I just mentioned,
• 47:10the issue of desecration whose
• 47:13preference and morality.
• 47:15Used for modes of memory memorialization
• 47:18and there are many other issues as well.
• 47:23So for demining, the Stolpersteine
• 47:25and the aggregate and the singular
• 47:28comprise a work of art that will never,
• 47:30can never be complete.
• 47:33Still, many relatives express a deep
• 47:36sense of closure, even catharsis.
• 47:39Once the stone has been laid.
• 47:43A descendant expressed it like this.
• 47:46I feel a burden has been lifted.
• 47:48Now there is a place with
• 47:50their name to remember them.
• 47:53And I will end here and thank
• 47:54you for your attention and I
• 47:55look forward to the discussion.
• 48:07I'll take this and you can.
• 48:15Thank you so much.
• 48:17Esserman though that was.
• 48:19Extraordinary was it was
• 48:21moving and educational and.
• 48:25I I think that. To be at these places
• 48:28and see these memorials, it's so moving.
• 48:30But the way this was presented,
• 48:32I think also I was very
• 48:34impressed upon many of us.
• 48:36I'll tell you just personally.
• 48:37So for me when I come to these things,
• 48:38I like to learn about a lots of things
• 48:41and what I always try and learn is,
• 48:44is a try and get an idea about
• 48:45how to teach and and to use this
• 48:47as a vehicle to teach us of so
• 48:49much history as well as so much a
• 48:51contemporary approach to the history.
• 48:53It was really exceptional.
• 48:54I thank you very much for that.
• 48:56We have microphones.
• 48:57Available for those in the
• 48:58audience who have questions,
• 49:00we have time
• 49:00for a couple of questions.
• 49:04One question that I had.
• 49:07Unfortunately, you answered a
• 49:08couple of questions that I had
• 49:10as we went along as I saw this
• 49:11the darker side of me thought I
• 49:13wonder how many of these have been
• 49:15vandalized and and you answered that
• 49:17with that that many of them have,
• 49:18but there's an insistence on
• 49:19replacing. Yeah very few have been in
• 49:23relation to the nearly 100,000 but.
• 49:28They, but occasionally they are, yeah.
• 49:31You mentioned also that,
• 49:33I mean this is expanded to many
• 49:35countries and in the US Now the same
• 49:38method has been used for victims of
• 49:40racial violence and other things.
• 49:42For a question I would ask is,
• 49:44has this particular work of art
• 49:46and it's made across the ocean,
• 49:48are there Americans who found
• 49:50themselves caught up in Europe and
• 49:52were murdered during the Nazi era?
• 49:54That's a very good question and it's
• 49:56something that we're looking into
• 49:57now and I don't yet have the answers.
• 49:59So stay tuned in next year.
• 50:01In the book, hopefully will be finished.
• 50:03We'll have the answer.
• 50:04So but there probably are.
• 50:07Thank you very much for that.
• 50:09I have a question here on the line.
• 50:13Let me just see if I can make this go for us.
• 50:20Thanks for this. This is a long
• 50:22question so relax here for a second, OK?
• 50:24Thanks for this wonderful and moving talk,
• 50:27Ruth, and anthropological question.
• 50:28In many ritual systems around the world,
• 50:31mirrors and reflective
• 50:33surfaces are understood as.
• 50:36Divinatory portals or windows
• 50:38between the living and the dead.
• 50:40Is something similar at play,
• 50:42perhaps in the stumbling stones,
• 50:43which are shiny if not quite reflective,
• 50:46as quasi ritual spaces of symbolic
• 50:49exchange between domains of life and death?
• 50:52Are they efficacious windows
• 50:54into other times and domains?
• 50:56Might the accessory it's written here too,
• 50:58you remember.
• 50:58Might the acts of polishing
• 51:00the stones and this guy was
• 51:02paying attention to the talk?
• 51:03Might the acts of polishing the stones
• 51:06and the musical performances perhaps be
• 51:08understood as ritual offerings intensifying?
• 51:11The uncanny sense of the living
• 51:13caring for or nurturing the lost.
• 51:16Even pressing the silent,
• 51:17the pressing of the silent doorbells could
• 51:20be seen as attempted communication with,
• 51:22or portal opening with the dead.
• 51:26In a durkheimian sense,
• 51:28then,
• 51:29do the stones actively mediate
• 51:31between individual and collective
• 51:33encounters with dead souls?
• 51:36Wow. We could thank you Mark Elslander.
• 51:41We could be here all day
• 51:44trying to answer that.
• 51:46The reflective surface is a
• 51:48wonderful observation and I
• 51:50will need to think about that.
• 51:53I don't have an answer in terms of
• 51:58mediating between the living and the dead.
• 52:01I would say absolutely,
• 52:03it definitely does that symbolic work.
• 52:08So in a durkheimian sense, yes.
• 52:11And the pressing of the doorbells.
• 52:15I love that idea as a portal
• 52:17opening with the dead.
• 52:18And I think for many people who encounter it,
• 52:21especially encountering it randomly,
• 52:23it could very well do that.
• 52:25And I've been told that sometimes
• 52:28delivery drivers who you know,
• 52:31are trying to ring doorbells and
• 52:33get very confused by the two.
• 52:35So it it does force people to confront,
• 52:40you know, their own local history in
• 52:42very unexpected ways. And this is.
• 52:45I think one of the functions,
• 52:47purposes and most powerful aspects
• 52:49of what we call counter memorials.
• 52:52So it's not a man on a horse with a
• 52:54plaque that tells you what to think.
• 52:57So it's quite different from that.
• 52:58And it's also very different
• 53:00from kind of massive memorials,
• 53:02umm, you know,
• 53:04that memorialize the aggregate
• 53:066 million or or other groups.
• 53:08So I think I should stop there with it.
• 53:10Thank you very much. We have
• 53:12questions from the audience.
• 53:15Hi, Ruth. I wanted to ask first first to
• 53:19thank you for a wonderful presentation.
• 53:20And then I wanted to ask you to maybe
• 53:24reflect on the equal Justice Initiative
• 53:27Memorial to lynching in Montgomery, AL.
• 53:29I don't know if you're aware
• 53:32of that project and umm.
• 53:34The difference that I'm seeing there
• 53:36is that there's a memorial site
• 53:39there that has a county by county
• 53:42representations of locations where.
• 53:44Black Americans were lynched and
• 53:46then there they have created two,
• 53:48a copy of each one that is then
• 53:51made available for those places
• 53:54to to take to their space.
• 53:56And I just wondered if you had any
• 53:58like sort of reflections on like that
• 54:01what makes that similar and different.
• 54:03Maybe it feels like it's it's it's
• 54:06this offering and an invitation on
• 54:09the part of the memorial makers as
• 54:11opposed to the sort of sponsoring
• 54:13component of the Stolper.
• 54:15Don't know if that makes any sense.
• 54:18Yeah. Thank you.
• 54:19I didn't have time to to talk about
• 54:22that and but I'm a huge fan of Bryan
• 54:25Stevenson and his work and I haven't
• 54:27yet had a chance to to visit the museum.
• 54:31I'm looking forward to being able
• 54:33to visit it and I do think it's it
• 54:37is very analogous to this kind of
• 54:39counter memorial and I think it's a
• 54:42brilliant way to memorialize horror and.
• 54:45And in a highly localized sense
• 54:48with the with the, you know,
• 54:50specific lynchings and naming them.
• 54:52So yes, thank you for raising that.
• 54:56We'll take one more question
• 54:58from the audience. OK.
• 55:00Well, two questions from one guy.
• 55:01Fair enough.
• 55:04A very two guys and that's it.
• 55:06You want to hear a
• 55:09short question,
• 55:09a little bit more political and legal.
• 55:131st Thank you for your wonderful talk.
• 55:16Can you tell us more?
• 55:17And specifically with regard to Poland
• 55:20and the law prohibited prohibiting
• 55:23people from implicating Poland or
• 55:26blaming Poland in the Nazi crimes,
• 55:30are you aware of any actual
• 55:33prosecutions of people attempting
• 55:35to install the stones?
• 55:37Or can you tell us any more
• 55:40about what's going on?
• 55:41Yeah. Thank you.
• 55:45Almost everywhere. I could say.
• 55:46Everywhere that they're installed,
• 55:50they have to get.
• 55:53Permission from the local authorities,
• 55:55from the municipal government,
• 55:56the village, the town,
• 55:58the hamlet, whatever.
• 56:01And it's very rare in Poland to get that
• 56:05permission for for a variety of reasons.
• 56:07As you pointed out, the official
• 56:10political ideology is that, you know,
• 56:12the Holocaust had nothing to do with us.
• 56:14It was the Germans who imposed it.
• 56:16And, yeah, and,
• 56:18but there have been some exceptions,
• 56:22and I've been told that.
• 56:23This summer in Bialystock,
• 56:25the very first Stolpersteine
• 56:27will be installed there.
• 56:29And if it is,
• 56:30I look forward to attending the ceremony.
• 56:35There are actually a couple in
• 56:37the town of Auschwitz but Gunter,
• 56:40damning, thought it was very important
• 56:42that there be some in Warsaw but,
• 56:44and there's not a single
• 56:46one in Warsaw or in Krakow.
• 56:48And he approached the Warsaw
• 56:51City government and offered.
• 56:54To bring 50 stones to put in the one
• 56:58of the entries to the Warsaw Ghetto.
• 57:00And he said I will pay for them,
• 57:02I will handle all of it.
• 57:04It won't cost you anything.
• 57:05And they kept putting him off and saying,
• 57:08oh, they're a health hazard,
• 57:11people might trip over them and
• 57:13architecturally it will work.
• 57:14Said they just for years kept,
• 57:17you know, we're very obstructionist
• 57:19and we didn't allow them.
• 57:23So. With this government,
• 57:24it's unlikely that there will be many more.
• 57:27But, and some people have said,
• 57:29well, what's the point in in Poland,
• 57:31the whole country would be paved with them,
• 57:33to which one might say yes.
• 57:36That's yeah so.
• 57:39Thank you, Torsten.
• 57:43Is it done? Yeah. Yeah. Good.
• 57:44See from. It looks threatening,
• 57:47as if I have so much to say,
• 57:48but see, it's probably easy.
• 57:49Thank you so much for the
• 57:51wonderful presentation.
• 57:54What I think is one of the many
• 57:56extremely valuable aspects of what
• 57:58you're doing is of course that really
• 58:00puts focus on the performative aspects
• 58:01of memorials and memory studies for a
• 58:03long time has been neglecting that.
• 58:05So I think the way that you analyze
• 58:07how people interact with it and go
• 58:09there and kind of with I think it's
• 58:11so important that really like that.
• 58:13What I was wondering about is you
• 58:16emphasized how there is this danger
• 58:18of other countries using it to
• 58:20whitewash themselves and get out.
• 58:22And I'm surprised by that because
• 58:25the way that I'm tempted to interpret
• 58:28the fact that now we are at 100,000
• 58:30and I have experienced how when I've
• 58:32been telling people about this back
• 58:35in the 90s said oh, now we have 2000,
• 58:36now we have 89,
• 58:37that we have this high number and
• 58:39so many European countries involved
• 58:40that this could also be seen as
• 58:42a part of the process.
• 58:44Of acknowledgement of complicity
• 58:45by other European societies.
• 58:47There seems to be both aspects
• 58:49in the but my question is.
• 58:51That I wonder where you position your
• 58:54scholarship and your analysis in that
• 58:56discussion that I see boiling up,
• 58:58particularly in the German context.
• 59:00And that's of course.
• 59:02The shift that we see over the
• 59:04last 1020 thirty years when the
• 59:07Stolpersteine are initiated.
• 59:09They go come into a 90s context
• 59:11where demonic of course,
• 59:12in many ways wants to push back against
• 59:14the Central Holocaust Memorial, right?
• 59:16I mean with all respect, but says.
• 59:18This is only has only certain values,
• 59:21but I want to do something different.
• 59:23I want to look at the victims individually,
• 59:24etcetera.
• 59:25I want to be local, etcetera.
• 59:28Um, but that moment,
• 59:30of course,
• 59:30also indicated through other things.
• 59:32That was the very much one of the
• 59:35most important processes for a
• 59:37state control of memory politics.
• 59:39And in Germany, right?
• 59:40The fact that the Bundestag takes
• 59:41over the Holocaust Memorial.
• 59:43It started as a grassroots thing,
• 59:44and it was a crucial and deeply
• 59:47problematic decision to say it's
• 59:49mainly about the Jewish victims.
• 59:53Mainly about the Jewish victims,
• 59:54the rivalry and the competition and
• 59:56the question of who which victim
• 59:58group should be memorialized.
• 59:59So it was a very important.
• 01:00:02Choosing of certain directions
• 01:00:03in the 90s now.
• 01:00:05What we've seen now is of course a messy.
• 01:00:09Ugly, difficult,
• 01:00:10potentially necessary discussion
• 01:00:12that started with Achille Ambis
• 01:00:16Disinviting from the word Trenal
• 01:00:18and Dirk Moses article about the
• 01:00:21Catechism of the Germans being all
• 01:00:23about the singularity of the Holocaust.
• 01:00:25And there are a lot of discussions
• 01:00:27in Germany going on right now,
• 01:00:29also with a very belated reception
• 01:00:31of Michael Rothberg's plea
• 01:00:32for multidirectional memory,
• 01:00:34which is exactly that whole point about
• 01:00:36also having come stumbling blocks to.
• 01:00:39In other historical context,
• 01:00:41so wonder what where you see.
• 01:00:43Your research and the discussion
• 01:00:45around the STORSTEIN in 2023 and
• 01:00:48that radical revision of German
• 01:00:50and European politics of memory.
• 01:00:56Again, I think we should talk about
• 01:00:58this over lunch and dinner and
• 01:00:59for the next month or two. But.
• 01:01:04Yeah, where to start?
• 01:01:08OK. One of the things you
• 01:01:10mentioned about whether.
• 01:01:11You know the control of it
• 01:01:13as a Jewish memorial versus
• 01:01:15a a more a broader one and.
• 01:01:21In some cases, the the project has come into
• 01:01:24conflict with local Jewish communities,
• 01:01:27one case in particular.
• 01:01:31That he and that Demmings group insisted
• 01:01:35that he place it on Shabbat and so that
• 01:01:39meant that the local Jewish community,
• 01:01:42which was quite religious, could not,
• 01:01:44would not attend and it really was
• 01:01:46a a difficult alienating process.
• 01:01:49Whereas he doesn't feel like he wants
• 01:01:51to be Co opted by any community.
• 01:01:53And for him it's his art project
• 01:01:55and you know, his schedule does
• 01:01:58not need to align with.
• 01:02:01With Jews or gypsies or or any any group so.
• 01:02:06So I think that's an important
• 01:02:09differentiation from the
• 01:02:11state sponsored you know,
• 01:02:13memorial to the European murdered Jews.
• 01:02:18So should I?
• 01:02:19I don't know what timing.
• 01:02:22If you want,
• 01:02:23I was worried you would.
• 01:02:27And I could take over your leg.
• 01:02:31I'm going to need a few minutes
• 01:02:33to to think about your, you know,
• 01:02:35incredibly observant, prescient questions.
• 01:02:41But, you know, I think
• 01:02:43we'll have to carry that on.
• 01:02:44You know that discussion on later.
• 01:02:46But you know, I would love to have
• 01:02:48all of the answers for that yet,
• 01:02:50but I don't yet.
• 01:02:52But I will be working on it.
• 01:02:53So stay tuned.
• 01:02:54Thank you very much.
• 01:02:57Thank you so much, Professor Mandel.