Yale Symposium on Holocaust and Genocide: Mandel

February 24, 2023

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February 2, 2023

Supported by the Lindenthal Family

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00:06Introduce now our next speaker,
00:08Professor Ruth Mandel,
00:09who's going to speak on
00:11the ethics of remembrance,
00:12Holocaust memorials and counter
00:14memorials in contemporary Europe.
00:16And just a few things about
00:18Professor Mandel please vessel.
00:20Ruth Mandel from the University
00:22College of London received her PhD
00:24from the University of Chicago.
00:25Her early work focused on mitigation,
00:28excuse me, migration between Turkey,
00:30Greece and Germany and her prize winning
00:33book Cosmopolitan anxieties Turkish
00:34challenges to citizenship and belonging.
00:37Germany was based on this research.
00:39Her subsequent research in Kazakhstan focused
00:42on media and development and migration,
00:45and there were numerous articles and the book
00:47markets and moralities as stemmed from this.
00:50Our current research addresses Holocaust
00:52memory and commemoration in Europe,
00:54focusing on artist Gunther
00:57Demnig Stolpersteine project.
00:58She has been the guest professor at
01:00the Graduate Institute in Geneva,
01:01the University of Vienna,
01:03and currently is the Gerhard Weinstock
01:05visiting professor of Jewish Studies in
01:08the Department of Anthropology at Harvard.
01:10She served as vice Dean at
01:12University College of London,
01:14where she's taught since the 1990s.
01:15She was Berlin Prize fellow with
01:18the American Academy in Berlin.
01:20Then it goes on and on.
01:21These,
01:21these credentials are quite extraordinary.
01:24I thank my friend Andrew Heinrich for
01:26suggesting Professor Mandel to us.
01:28And we are.
01:29We're honored to have you here with us today.
01:31So, Ruth,
01:32please join us and we'll hear about.
01:35Ethics of remembrance Holocaust
01:37memorials and counter memorials
01:39in contemporary Europe.
01:42OK. Thank you. I'm not going
01:46to be scrolling back and forth.
01:47I'm going to be standing here so you
01:50can better appreciate the visuals.
01:54I'm very pleased to be here today and
01:57I want to thank Mark Mercurio for
01:59the invitation and to the Lindenthal
02:02family for making this possible.
02:05So in the nearly 80 years since
02:07the end of World War Two,
02:09there have been countless
02:11responses to the atrocities.
02:13One response to National Socialism and
02:15the Holocaust has been through art.
02:21Today's talk about Europe's largest
02:24decentralized Holocaust Memorial artist,
02:27Gunta demmings,
02:29strokes steina or stumbling stones?
02:33Is the is the topic of today's talk,
02:36often known as a counter memorial.
02:38I should clarify from the start that
02:41the stones actually are flush with the
02:43ground in which they're installed,
02:44and any stumbling is purely symbolic,
02:48so you can have a good sense of
02:50what they look like in situ here.
02:53Demmings project Handstamps
02:55brass plaques with the name,
02:58date and place of birth and fate
03:01of Nazi victims of persecution.
03:04The plaques generally are installed
03:06in front of their former homes.
03:09His aim is to return their names
03:11to their homes and communities.
03:13Demining often quotes what he calls a
03:16Jewish source that says a person is only
03:20forgotten when their name is forgotten.
03:22I'll be describing the many meanings
03:25of Stolpersteine offer individuals
03:27and groups in various locations.
03:29The data come from long term research
03:32with my colleague Doctor Rachel lair.
03:34Rachel and I went to many dedication
03:37ceremonies, actually hundreds,
03:38sometimes to observe.
03:40Other times as participants,
03:42we learned that these stumbling stones are
03:45controversial and have been celebrated,
03:48imitated, banned, and vandalized.
03:52We interviewed countless attendees,
03:55the organizers,
03:56participants, passersby,
03:57sponsors,
03:58carrying out our research as ethnographers.
04:02This entailed participating and
04:04observing and focusing on the
04:07everyday aspects of the project.
04:09We've explored how the stumbling
04:12stones articulate with the local
04:14and national narratives of the
04:17many places they're installed.
04:19One of our aims has been to examine
04:21how this particular memorial project
04:23can assist in the understanding of how
04:27Holocaust memory still resonates today.
04:32So I'd like to briefly introduce
04:34the outline of the talk.
04:35So I'll begin by giving some background
04:37history of the artist and the project.
04:40Then I'll describe a bit about the
04:42process of how the stones are installed.
04:45Following this, I'll give examples of
04:47a number of different installations
04:49and different countries to show
04:51the diversity of the project.
04:53This leads to a discussion about the area
04:55that has been a focus of our research,
04:58the Nordic countries.
04:59After this I'll touch on how music
05:02is deployed as an integral part of
05:04some ceremonies and how people have
05:07personalized the installations.
05:09And finally I'll discuss other counter
05:12memorials and the afterlives of these stones.
05:16Currently there are nearly 100,000 stones
05:21in 29 countries throughout Europe.
05:25In each country the plaque is inscribed
05:27in the local language as seen here.
05:30A typical stone will say here lived
05:33so and so, date and place of birth,
05:36date of deportation and date
05:38and place of death if known.
05:40Here we see some stones engraved in Greek,
05:42German, French, Finnish.
05:46Many people familiar with this
05:49project assume they are solely for
05:51Jewish victims of Nazi Germany.
05:53They are in fact also intended for victims
05:56of all of all victims of national socialism,
06:00including resistors, Roma,
06:02Sinti, Jehovah's Witnesses.
06:05LGBTQ individuals. However,
06:07the overwhelming majority are for Jews.
06:12This stone was installed in Oslo,
06:15Norway and it commemorates a murdered member
06:18of the Norwegian anti Nazi resistance.
06:23The project as we know it today
06:26began in 1996 when Gunter damning
06:29installed the First Stones in Cologne
06:32and Berlin as a one time initiative.
06:35However, it was noticed by some
06:37people who requested stones for
06:39their own murdered relatives.
06:41Initially, A1 man operation Demmings
06:44artwork evolved organically.
06:46For many years,
06:48he alone crafted the stones and
06:50bossed them and installed them.
06:52As the project became better known,
06:54some municipalities supported him.
06:57Eventually,
06:57the project expanded to today's team
07:00of around a dozen staff researching
07:03countless requests from around the world
07:06and organizing nonstop installations.
07:08In addition,
07:09hundreds of volunteers support the
07:12project in various ways through research,
07:15contacting descendants.
07:16Maintaining and polishing the stones,
07:19organizing installations,
07:21fundraising, and more.
07:24Until the pandemic,
07:25demining maintained a rigorous
07:27travel schedule on the road,
07:29installing stones close to 300 days a year.
07:33One single stone costs around $130.
07:38They're paid for by individual sponsors,
07:41groups,
07:42municipalities,
07:42nonprofit organizations and
07:44even national reparation funds.
07:49Above all, damning is a conceptual artist
07:53on route to an installation with him,
07:56one of our companions asked
07:58damning if he still had a chance
08:00to make his own art these days.
08:03Damning was taken aback.
08:04He replied. This is the art.
08:06It is my lebens back.
08:08My life, work and everything that happens
08:11after I leave the stone is also art.
08:16Hunter Demon grew up in post War
08:19West Germany, the son of a German
08:22soldier who told him little about his
08:24experiences fighting in the Nazi army.
08:27Typical of his generation
08:29coming of age in the 60s,
08:31Gunter was politically engaged.
08:33He studied art and was heavily influenced.
08:37By Joseph Boyce.
08:38Boys was known for the conceptual
08:41art form he called social sculpture,
08:45a way of thinking about arts
08:48potential to transform society.
08:49To boys and his followers,
08:51art is inherently political.
08:55Denning is open about his heritage.
08:57He identifies his own work as a
08:59response to his personal legacy.
09:04Stolpersteine installations
09:05are planned far in advance.
09:08The stone may be commissioned by
09:11individuals such as descendants or
09:13grassroots neighborhood organizations,
09:15schools, churches.
09:17Municipalities.
09:17The waiting list can be two years or more.
09:23Sponsors are required to provide
09:25documentation about the individuals,
09:27where they lived and so forth
09:30before a stone can be ordered.
09:33Sponsors are encouraged to reach out to
09:35identify if there's any other descendants
09:38in order to let them know about the plans.
09:40Often, municipalities,
09:42and Germany in particular,
09:44provide assistance in the research.
09:46Gunter feels it's important to
09:48meet the sponsors of the Stones.
09:50Equally,
09:51many of the descendants and
09:53volunteers who spent countless hours
09:55organizing the installations and
09:57ceremonies cherish the opportunity
09:59to meet the artist himself,
10:01who's become something of a celebrity.
10:05Demnig's motto is one person, one stone.
10:09To him, this means that each
10:12individual death is acknowledged.
10:15These micro memorials contrast to the large,
10:18often abstract Holocaust memorials
10:21that commemorate the 6 million.
10:24The individual nature of each stumbling
10:27stone opens a window into a specific life.
10:34Stumbling stones deliberately are
10:36not mass produced these days.
10:39They're individually embossed 1 by
10:411 by Demmings colleague Michelle
10:43Friedrich Friedlander in Berlin.
10:46Deming made a decision not to expand
10:49production despite the growing demand.
10:52Instead, by creating each
10:53unique plaque one at a time,
10:56he recognizes the individual's
10:58identities and their murders,
11:00and hence renders them unforgettable.
11:04A personal engagement with ordinary,
11:06until now nameless,
11:08individuals recognize as a life
11:11lived and a life taken away.
11:13Demming insists that direct attention is
11:16paid to each individual through the slow,
11:19artisanal creation of each brass plate.
11:23Damning says that the stumbling
11:25stones represent the antithesis
11:27to the mechanization of Nazi mass
11:30murder that denied individuals not
11:33only their lives but their names.
11:35When he installs the individual stone,
11:37he engages with it carefully
11:40and methodically,
11:41polishing it in a reverential posture.
11:46The best way to appreciate to take
11:48in the details of the stone is to
11:52approach it closely and lean over it.
11:54Toward it. This creates an intimate
11:57space between the viewer and the stone.
12:00Part of what is special about them is that
12:03they're explicitly personal and individual,
12:05while at the same time implicitly
12:08connected to the huge network of
12:11scores of thousands of similar stones.
12:15This project is the world's
12:18largest decentralized memorial.
12:20It's both small and expensive,
12:23international and intimate.
12:26Symbolic and literal.
12:29Gunter Demnig chose the epithet,
12:31strohschein,
12:31or stumbling stone as a reference to
12:35the random nature of encountering them.
12:38They're meant to be symbolically
12:40stumbled across and over.
12:42Additionally,
12:42it bears the implication of obstruction,
12:45such as stumbling block in English.
12:48Damning has stated that the
12:51intention is for pedestrians to
12:53stumble with their hearts and minds.
12:56To damning his artwork will
12:58never be completed.
12:59He recognizes that it's not possible
13:01to place stones for all victims.
13:07Attentive to kinship,
13:09he thoughtfully places the
13:10stones in familial arrangements.
13:13The Stones for children are placed
13:15between parents, as he told us.
13:18Now the parents can protect their
13:19child as if holding their hands.
13:24And he often arranges familial
13:27generations and horizontal rows.
13:30Moreover, the process of
13:32installation often is iterative.
13:34He revisits many locations annually and
13:37some more frequently to add stones,
13:40thereby ensuring a continuity of
13:43both attention and engagement.
13:48In many of the instances,
13:49the sponsors plan a dedication ceremony
13:53to accompany the installation.
13:56At the sites we visited, we observed
13:58a wide variety of such dedications.
14:01Some had music, flowers,
14:03photographs, speeches, prayers.
14:05All of them included biographies
14:08of the victims read out.
14:11These familiar memory performances and
14:13gestures might be seen as conventional.
14:17But we also observed less familiar
14:20practices and novel rituals.
14:22At 1 installation in Berlin,
14:24attended by around 30 people,
14:26we noted the thought that had
14:28gone into a quite elaborate
14:30dedication that included music,
14:32candles, photographs, singing,
14:35song sheets and speeches.
14:38The biography of the Family's
14:40lives included musical selections,
14:42in fact, all those gathered.
14:45Holding their song sheets were led in a
14:48three-part round of a song Zoom Gali Gali.
14:51This is an Israeli folk song celebrating,
14:54pioneering and working the land.
14:56We were told that it was chosen because
14:59one of the victims had been part of a
15:02pre war socialist Zionist youth group.
15:05This tune was a striking
15:07and surprising choice.
15:08It reflected the amount of
15:10nuanced research that had gone
15:11into the ceremonies preparation.
15:16The aftermath of the Holocaust
15:18dispersed survivors far and wide,
15:21severing family ties.
15:23Sometimes survivors had no
15:25knowledge of whether family
15:27members and friends had survived.
15:30But these stones have proven to be one
15:32way that distant relatives connect.
15:35At numerous installations,
15:36we met people who were meeting their own
15:39cousins for the first time that day,
15:41in that place where they shared
15:43a relative who had been murdered.
15:46This is one of the ways that Stolpersteine
15:50can inadvertently reunite families.
15:55Another installation in Berlin actually
15:58was a reinstallation in front of the
16:01former pharmacy owned by Adolf Mokler.
16:04Here seemed in the scene
16:06in the framed picture.
16:08He had been hounded out of Berlin by Nazis
16:11who took over an arianist used his store.
16:15He fled to South America,
16:16where he took his own life.
16:18The original Stolpersteine for him had been
16:21vandalized by Neo Nazis the year before,
16:24along with about a dozen
16:26other nearby stumbling stones.
16:28Gunter Demining is adamant about
16:32replacing any vandalized stones.
16:36This particular reinstallation took
16:37the form of a political rally.
16:40As the crowd gathered,
16:42anti fascist banners were unfurled.
16:45Political figures,
16:46among them the local mayor's
16:49high profile national politicians
16:51along with international,
16:52national and local media, were present.
16:56In addition to commemorating
16:58a local persecuted Jew,
17:00many in the crowd clearly were
17:02attracted to the event in order
17:04to express solidarity against
17:06the growing neo-Nazi movement.
17:11On May 30th of 2022, London,
17:16England joined the rest of Europe in
17:19becoming a site for a stumbling stone,
17:22this one for Ada. Fun danzik.
17:25Otto was a young Dutch woman
17:27working in a paintings conservation
17:29studio in central London.
17:32Upon learning that her family situation
17:34was worsening in the late 30s,
17:37she returned to the Netherlands and tried
17:39to help them escape with her to London.
17:42Instead, the family was arrested,
17:44deported and murdered in Auschwitz.
17:48Although she was not deported
17:50directly from London,
17:51Gunter decided that her exceptional
17:54situation warranted a stone.
17:56Two days after the London installation,
17:59the Republic of Ireland became the
18:0129th country with Stolpersteine.
18:04The Six Stones shown here commemorate
18:07Irish citizens and residents caught up in
18:10Europe and unable to return to Ireland.
18:13Five of them were killed in Auschwitz,
18:15and the 6th in Lithuania.
18:17These stones in Ireland and
18:19England are the first,
18:20but may not be the last,
18:21and these in their respective countries.
18:25Much of our research has focused on
18:28the stones in the Nordic countries,
18:31particularly Finland,
18:33Sweden, Denmark and Norway.
18:37Similar to many other places
18:39where Jews settled in these lands,
18:41many began as itinerant peddlers,
18:44the most successful among them.
18:47Became owners of dry goods shops,
18:49known in Norway, for example,
18:51as Yoda boutique Juice Shop.
18:56Though Denmark and Norway both were
18:58occupied by Nazi Germany in 1940,
19:01their experiences of
19:03occupation sharply contrasted.
19:05For its part, Finland fought
19:08alongside Nazi Germany until 1944.
19:10While the impact of the war on Jewish
19:13citizens differed in these countries,
19:15the fates of asylum seeking
19:18Jewish refugees proved similar.
19:23We attended the first ever installations in
19:26Sweden in 2019 where 3 stones were dedicated,
19:31including the one you see here.
19:33The stones mark an important reckoning
19:36with Swedish complicity and are
19:38controversial precisely for that reason.
19:41The first dedication,
19:43attended by numerous international
19:45dignitaries, was for Eric Holloa,
19:47a stateless refugee who had
19:50been born in Berlin in 1896,
19:52fled to Sweden in 1938,
19:55only to be deported and killed in 1942.
20:01Sweden's Jewish population,
20:03numbering approximately
20:0410,000 before the war,
20:07was the largest in the region,
20:08composed of Jewish Swedes along
20:11with several 1000 refugees.
20:13The Sweden claim to be neutral in the war.
20:17Numerous Jewish residents,
20:19all stateless refugees,
20:21were deported and killed.
20:24Post war scholars have delved into
20:26Sweden's putative neutrality and
20:28have shown the many ways that Sweden
20:31did accommodate the Nazi regime.
20:36When the Nazis demanded that the Finnish
20:39army turnover its Jewish soldiers to them,
20:42the Finnish General Carl
20:44Gustaf Mannerheim refused,
20:46protecting them as fellow Finnish soldiers.
20:50However, the Nazis refused critical
20:53grain shipments to Finland until Eastern
20:56European refugee Jews were relinquished.
21:00Thus far, 8 refugees have been identified
21:03who were deported to death camps
21:05murdered in the country's swap for grain.
21:10Four of them are memorialized
21:12in stumbling stones.
21:13This is an image of three
21:16Stolpersteine in Helsinki.
21:18The stone in the center
21:20memorializes A2 year old child,
21:22his parents on either side.
21:30Most of them of the more
21:32than 2000 Jews in Norway.
21:35Resided in Oslo and Trondheim.
21:38Restrictions on their mobility,
21:41education, employment and economy
21:43led to mass arrests and loss of
21:46citizenship and deportation.
21:48In 1942, homegrown Norwegian
21:51Nazi members carried out the
21:54logistics of the deportation.
22:00Those who did not escape or hide.
22:03Around 1/3 of the Jewish population in
22:08Norway were deported by ship to Auschwitz.
22:11This clandestinely taken photograph is
22:14of the Nazi Donau ship departing the
22:18Oslo Dock with over 500 Jews on it.
22:24On their way to Auschwitz.
22:28Of the total of 761 deportees,
22:32only 38 survived and fewer still returned.
22:38But this was not the end of it.
22:40Near the end of the war,
22:41with the aid of Sweden,
22:43several 1000 deported Norwegian
22:45non Jews were rescued and returned
22:48back to their homes in Norway.
22:51However, the surviving Jews who'd
22:53been deported were stripped of
22:55their Norwegian citizenship
22:56during the Quisling regime and
22:59their property was confiscated.
23:01For the few who wish to return,
23:03reinstating their citizenship
23:05and regaining their property
23:07proved extremely problematic.
23:12Norway's Stolpersteine or Snoop Blistein
23:15are organized by the local Jewish museums.
23:19These museums are part of a larger
23:22reparations package from the
23:24government from the late 1990s.
23:28The Oslo Jewish Museums project was
23:31completed just this past September,
23:33pictured here at the very same location.
23:38Of the donor shown here.
23:41Just facing the other way. Umm.
23:46Is Norway's Crown Princess Mette Marit,
23:49with Gunter Demining and the director
23:52of Oslo's Jewish Museum witnessing the
23:55installation of the final three stones?
24:01The Norwegian Center for Holocaust and
24:04Memorial Studies will now be organizing
24:06the installation of more stones to
24:09memorialize Roma and Sinti from Norway
24:11who were disenfranchised and murdered.
24:17Denmark's story took a different path.
24:19Its first Jewish community was
24:21established in the 17th century.
24:23Close to 8000 Jews were living there in 1939,
24:27including men, many stateless refugees.
24:30Denmark capitulated peacefully
24:32to the Nazis in 1940.
24:36In 1943, the year following Norway's
24:39deportation of its Jewish Citizens,
24:42Danish Jews learned of a Nazi
24:45roundup that was imminent.
24:48Fully 90% of Denmark's Jewish
24:51population escaped to nearby Sweden in
24:54a massive flotilla crossing the choppy
24:57Strait between the two countries.
25:00Still, nearly 500 Jews were captured
25:04and deported to Czechoslovakia to the
25:07Theresienstadt concentration camp,
25:09where 53 of them died.
25:12As opposed to Norway, deported Danish
25:16Jews retained their citizenship.
25:18Moreover, while imprisoned in Terezin Shnot,
25:21the Danish Government monitored them,
25:23lobbied for their well-being,
25:25and sent care packages via the Red Cross.
25:292019 marked the inauguration
25:31of Stolpersteine in Denmark,
25:33when twelve were dedicated.
25:35Since then, dozens more have been installed.
25:40Different from some other places
25:42with the stones,
25:43where they're only laid for those
25:45who were murdered, the Danish.
25:47Strong person committees have
25:49have elected to place stones for
25:51people who were liberated,
25:53in addition to those who were murdered.
25:58The final word on these 3 stones?
26:01Befreit. Signifies that the individual
26:05was liberated, not murdered.
26:07The middle Stone Henny forced her
26:10name appears on the Middlestone
26:13was one of the very few surviving
26:15babies to be born in the
26:19Theresienstadt concentration camp.
26:20Henny, now 78 years old,
26:23was joined by her daughters and
26:25grandchildren this past August at
26:27the installation of these stones
26:29for herself and for her parents.
26:34One of the things we observed in
26:38countless installation ceremonies
26:39has been the presence of music.
26:42We heard Klezmer in Berlin,
26:45Ladino lullabies sung in Greece,
26:48sea shanties in Norway and a
26:51wide range of other tunes.
26:54The inaugural Stolpersteine
26:55installation in Copenhagen was well
26:58attended by several hundred members
27:00of the Danish Jewish community,
27:02as well as local and foreign dignitaries.
27:06A violinist was accompanied by a singer.
27:09They performed Rojan, Kismet,
27:11mandolin, raisins, and almonds.
27:13This is a beloved Yiddish lullaby,
27:16popularized through an arrangement
27:19by Abraham Goldfaden as part
27:21of his opera shulamis from.
27:241880 The hundreds of people gathered,
27:27watched demining dig into the pavement,
27:30and placed three stones,
27:32after which the music was performed.
27:34Attendees spontaneously sang or hummed along,
27:38many weeping openly,
27:40deeply moved by the familiar
27:43music from their childhood.
27:45The Yiddish Lullaby tells of a Snow
27:48White kid under the cradle that will be
27:51traded at market for raisins and almonds.
27:53When we interviewed the singer a counter,
27:56he explained I could have chosen a Holocaust,
27:59lullaby or a ghetto song,
28:01but I selected this lullaby for the
28:04grandmothers being memorialized.
28:11By contrast, in a small town in
28:15Western Norway, musicians performed
28:17the theme to Schindler's to Spielberg,
28:21Schindler's list written by John Williams.
28:25When we spoke to the violinist,
28:26you can see here, he was proud of
28:28having made the selection to him.
28:30It was the natural selection.
28:34You know to accompany this.
28:36And a few days later, at the inaugural
28:39installation in Stockholm, Sweden,
28:41we heard the Schindler theme once again.
28:45Ever since the widespread dissemination and
28:48popularity of the film Schindler's List,
28:50some scholars have wondered
28:52about the film's legacy.
28:54Most agreed that it would preserve
28:56the memory of the Holocaust.
28:58However, some wondered if it would restrict
29:01and mold the memory in problematic ways.
29:05Over the past couple decades,
29:07Schindler's List has indeed
29:09become inextricably linked with
29:11the Holocaust in popular culture.
29:14It often serves as a shorthand,
29:16via Hollywood for the atrocity.
29:20Many people who have seen the film
29:22treated as a kind of complete truth.
29:24Having seen it,
29:25they now know about the Holocaust,
29:27however.
29:28Stanley Kubrick wondered whether
29:30a film could ever truly represent
29:34the Holocaust in its entirety.
29:37But when he was asked about Schindler's List,
29:39and perhaps this could could do it,
29:43he responded.
29:44Think that's about the Holocaust?
29:46That was about success, wasn't it?
29:49The Holocaust is about 6
29:51million who get killed.
29:53Schindler's List is about 600 who don't.
30:02Whereas many installations include
30:05planned musical performances,
30:07in northern Hungary we observed spontaneous
30:10singing by a group of descendants.
30:12Having come from three different
30:15countries and continents for the event.
30:17Their reunion was amplified
30:20through their voices.
30:21Following the installation
30:23and shared family memories,
30:25they broke into a well known anthem of
30:28Jewish persistence through adversity,
30:30Omnious Royal High at
30:32the end of the ceremony.
30:34Reinforcing this defiant
30:36sentiment through song,
30:38they followed this song with
30:40two others from Jewish liturgy.
30:42Indeed, despite the atrocities
30:44the relatives experienced,
30:46the family lives on 3 generations
30:50from 3 continents.
30:51Witnessing together that day.
30:54When the group shared a lahim,
30:56the traditional Jewish toast to life,
30:59they were reaffirming both the
31:01present and future while defying the
31:03past attempt to annihilate them.
31:08At the well attended dedication in Dublin,
31:11Ireland, the six Stones were placed
31:13in front of a primary school once
31:16attended by local Jewish children,
31:18and I found out later from the
31:20principal of the school that the
31:22reason this school had so many Jewish
31:24children was because it was a school
31:26linked to the Protestant church.
31:28None of the Catholic Church schools in
31:31Ireland would permit Jewish children.
31:37This part of the school's history is
31:39incorporated into its curriculum,
31:41and one of the classrooms is
31:43named after one of the victims.
31:45So many of the days events
31:48involve the school children.
31:50The violin teacher LED
31:51her students in a medley.
31:536 songs of the Holocaust based on the
31:57Yiddish song under your White Stars.
32:00The composer Brodno and the poet
32:02Sutzkever collaborated on this
32:04piece while they were trapped
32:06together in the Vilna Ghetto.
32:08Sutzkever escaped and went on to
32:11become an acclaimed Yiddish poet.
32:13Brodno was murdered at the
32:16Estonian concentration camp Kouga.
32:18So the power of music to evoke painful
32:21and cherished memories was brought to
32:23the fore in all these dedications.
32:29For demining, Stolpersteine are
32:31about the symbolic returning of
32:34the murdered to their residents.
32:37By preserving their names,
32:39their memories are restored.
32:41By contrast, for the descendants,
32:44it's about remembering specific
32:46relatives who have no gravestones
32:49and creating a place to mark and
32:52express their individual grief.
32:54Occasionally, people wish to
32:56personalize the stones they sponsor,
32:58such as placing small tokens,
33:01stars of David or notes beneath the stones.
33:10Californian Howard Shatner,
33:12the descendant of Nazi victims,
33:15chose to personalize the dedication process
33:17for the Berlin Stones he commissioned.
33:20He cut and embossed these copper hearts
33:23with a transliterated Hebrew word for life.
33:27Time to be buried under the stones.
33:31So what happens to the stones
33:34after they're installed?
33:36People continue to engage with them
33:38as far as Gunter is concerned,
33:40the art continues after
33:42the stone is installed.
33:44It takes on a life of its own as
33:48individuals and groups interact with it.
33:51Some towns and cities maintain
33:53active websites where people
33:55can report damage or vandalism.
33:58Many towns and neighborhoods have
34:00developed apps for self-guided tours
34:03to learn more about the individuals
34:05behind the names on the stones.
34:07Schoolchildren sometimes make rubbings
34:10and incorporate the stones as part
34:13of their Holocaust curriculum.
34:15In many sites,
34:16local groups and neighbors commit to
34:20monitoring and polishing the stones.
34:22One person told us.
34:23I feel as though I have a personal
34:26relationship with these dead.
34:28I see them and remember them.
34:30Every time I pass by.
34:32I nod to them, acknowledge them.
34:34I know each individual's history.
34:37I think about the books that
34:39didn't get written,
34:39the music that was not composed,
34:41the families whose lines were cut short.
34:47In the Polish city of Ruthrauff,
34:50the former Breslau,
34:51a group of school children from the
34:54Shalom Alekum Jewish Elementary School,
34:57had hoped to install Stolpersteine.
35:00They wanted to memorial
35:03memorialize Paul Erlich,
35:04the architect and former resident of
35:07the building that housed their school.
35:09Air leak and his family were
35:12murdered in today's Onstott.
35:14Due to the timing constraints and
35:16the long wait for the actual stones,
35:18instead they devised their own solution.
35:22They painted gold on the
35:23flagstones in front of the school
35:26to imitate the Stolpersteine.
35:28So this choice of memorial points
35:29to the power of Stolpersteine
35:31A in the public imagination.
35:35Which dobberstein are not the
35:37only Holocaust Memorial that
35:39can be randomly encountered.
35:41Found in unexpected places,
35:43such counter memorials can be
35:46found throughout Europe and beyond.
35:49A well known installation is in Budapest.
35:52This memorial of bronze shoes scattered
35:55along the Bank of the Danube.
35:58Memorializes the Jews who were forced
36:00to remove their own shoes prior
36:03to being murdered and pushed into
36:05the river in the winter of 194445.
36:15These keys recall the homes of
36:17Viennese Jews who lived on this
36:20particular street where this is
36:23located before they were killed.
36:25A tag with the name of a
36:28murdered resident hangs from HK.
36:30And this was a a grassroots initiative?
36:36This suitcase is permanently situated.
36:41In a sidewalk in the town of
36:44Leiden in the Netherlands,
36:45this and five other similar suitcases
36:48are located in meaningful spots.
36:51Such as the police station
36:53where Jews were rounded up.
36:55Houses where Jews hit and in front of a
36:58Jewish orphanage like stumbling stones.
37:01This installation,
37:03the keys and the shoes are intended
37:05to be encountered unexpectedly.
37:10This settlement, more subtle
37:13memorial is hidden in plain sight.
37:16On the wall. To the right of of this
37:19large entryway of a Berlin apartment
37:22building is the set of doorbells,
37:24each with a name and a buzzer,
37:26connected to an apartment.
37:28But on the left.
37:29Is its mirror image another set of doorbells?
37:33But these are silent.
37:37One resident in the building, an architect,
37:39undertook extensive research into the
37:42buildings 83 pre war Jewish residents.
37:46He had a nameplate for each individual
37:50and family engraved and created the
37:53silent Bell board of Polished brass.
37:56In lieu of a voice box for the intercom
37:58system is a memory plaque listing the
38:01concentration and death camps in which
38:04the absent residents were killed.
38:06In Hebrew, it is written,
38:07may they rest in peace.
38:10Memorials such as these provoke
38:12a range of responses,
38:13including surprise and confusion,
38:16awe and grief.
38:21This image was captured on a
38:24Kristallnacht commemoration in Germany.
38:26In some places, friends of
38:28Stolpersteine committees Polish them
38:30on special days such as Kristallnacht.
38:33The violent events of Kristallnacht the
38:36night of broken glass, 84 years ago.
38:40Signaled the critical turning point
38:42in the 13 years of the Third Reich.
38:46In Germany, the day is more
38:48commonly known as Reichs, pogroms,
38:50Nacht or the November pogrom.
38:53Some in Germany have argued that
38:55calling it night of broken glass or
38:58Kristallnacht Crystal Knight minimizes
39:00the extent of the violence and does
39:02not acknowledge those who were killed
39:04and the 10s of thousands arrested
39:06and put in concentration camps.
39:08They claim that the term Kristallnacht
39:10makes it sound like a one off event
39:13when some windows and storefronts were
39:15shattered rather than being the state
39:18organized program it actually was.
39:20That led to a fundamental escalation
39:22of the persecution of Jews in
39:25the Holocaust to follow.
39:29Some of you may have seen the
39:32Stolpersteine photo on the cover
39:34of last month's Atlantic magazine.
39:36The lead article monuments to the
39:39unthinkable by Clint Smith has been
39:42widely acknowledged in many media.
39:44Thanks to this piece,
39:46Stolpersteine are now on the
39:48radar of countless people who
39:50previously had not heard of them.
39:52The Stolpersteine Foundation website
39:55received an unprecedented 1,000,000
39:57views in the weeks immediately
40:00after the issue was released.
40:02The thrust of Smith's argument
40:04is that the US could learn useful
40:07lessons from Germany in terms of
40:10memorializing its own genocidal
40:11past with respect to acknowledging
40:14chattel slavery and the current
40:16treatment of black Americans.
40:19He but he did not bring much new to
40:21the discussion that Susan Nyman so
40:23eloquently and comprehensively argued
40:25in her book learning from the Germans,
40:28race and the memory of Evil.
40:32When imagining a 1930s Jewish Sabbath
40:35gathering of family and friends in Berlin.
40:40Smith's description is rife with stereotypes
40:43that actually violate the historical
40:45veracity of the period and place.
40:48In this era of rising
40:50anti-Semitic and racist violence,
40:52books such as David Baddiel's Jews
40:55don't count and Dara horns people
40:58Love Dead Jews have brought important
41:00contradictions and complexity to the fore.
41:04By contrast, Smith's art depiction doesn't
41:07really help to move this discourse forward.
41:12Now the pictures here are of a
41:15witness stone and stopping stone,
41:18two projects in New England,
41:20and they're being made to
41:23commemorate enslaved people.
41:24Both projects have demmings endorsement.
41:29They're similarity to Stolpersteine
41:31a amplifies their visibility and
41:34legitimacy as memorial markers.
41:36Smith mentions the witness Stones Project,
41:39among others,
41:40as an example of American grassroots
41:44memorialization to enslave people.
41:46Now this slide is very local.
41:49It shows two sites in New Haven
41:51and two witness stones are placed
41:53in front of each location,
41:55the party Morris House and the
41:57Trinity Church on the green.
42:04So to wrap up.
42:07This talk has looked at the variety
42:10of installations, attitudes,
42:11and responses to this exceptional project.
42:15I've tried to address what the
42:18Stolpersteine project tells us about
42:20marking particular days and places
42:22of terror while at the same time
42:26remembering the singular individuals
42:28amidst the murdered multitudes.
42:30And just as we have seen,
42:32Gunter Jenning's Stolpersteine
42:33project is just one of many art
42:37initiatives that attempt to address
42:40mass atrocities of the Holocaust.
42:42One way to understand the Stroper Stein,
42:45as well as some of the other projects,
42:47is as counter memorials.
42:49A counter memorial can be thought
42:52of as a political form of art that
42:55is by definition participatory.
42:57People encounter them and must
43:00choose how to respond or not.
43:03They're non prescriptive.
43:04People bring and take away a plethora
43:07of emotions, ideas and memories.
43:10The scholar James Young reminds us that
43:14counter memorials remain a process,
43:16not an answer,
43:17a place that provides time for memorial,
43:20reflection, contemplation and learning.
43:26Perhaps This is why they're so well received,
43:29why increasing numbers of individuals,
43:31towns and countries seek to join the project.
43:36So what started as a single event
43:39in 1996 in Germany has grown
43:42exponentially to become the
43:43world's largest counter memorial.
43:46As countries reexamine their
43:49problematic histories,
43:50some have chosen to join the
43:53Stolpersteine project.
43:54Becoming part of this international
43:57memorial facilitates a shift in public
44:00national narratives about the past,
44:03about responsibility and about complicity.
44:08For example, we were told about
44:11a small town in northern Norway
44:13that was eager to join in.
44:16They were inspired by the attention
44:19in the media throughout Norway about
44:22installations that range from the
44:24Arctic Circle down to the South.
44:27So they contacted the Jewish Museum
44:30in Oslo and asked for their own stone.
44:33The Jewish Museum did some research,
44:36looked into it,
44:37and informed them that no one had been
44:40deported from their town and murdered.
44:43When they heard this, this little
44:46town expressed their disappointment.
44:48No Jews had been deported from
44:49the town since.
44:50No Jew had ever lived there.
44:53By contrast, Poland,
44:54where millions of Jews had
44:56lived and were murdered,
44:58has largely blocked efforts for
45:01Stolpersteine installations for
45:04very problematic political reasons.
45:07Other localities,
45:08groups and individuals object
45:10to Stolpersteine A,
45:11and for a variety of reasons.
45:14Some fear their placement will
45:16reduce their property values,
45:17and they've even sued local
45:19municipalities to have them removed.
45:22Others do not like to see the
45:24reminder of their national shame.
45:27Within the Jewish community,
45:29there's some objections as well.
45:31Leaders in some places have banned them.
45:35Claiming that it would be a desecration
45:38to step on the names of the murdered.
45:41Some of the objections stem
45:43from a comparison between the
45:46stumbling stones and gravestones.
45:48However,
45:49the artist demining reminds us that
45:51the stones deliberately are placed in
45:54front of homes where people lived,
45:56not where they died.
45:58None of them are gravestones.
46:00Still, this is not necessarily the
46:02most salient aspect for descendants,
46:05many of whom do see them as places of memory,
46:08like a gravestone.
46:09Some see it serving as a symbolic gravestone,
46:13a place to come and remember their lost ones.
46:18And just very briefly,
46:19I'd like to point out some of
46:21the ethical issues raised,
46:23you know,
46:24that we've identified during the research.
46:27For example,
46:28the implications of the project
46:31being treated as art versus
46:34a memory memorial project.
46:36And sometimes this comes into conflict.
46:39Also how local and national
46:42governments use them for their
46:45own purposes to morally cleanse
46:48themselves at very little cost.
46:51Of their difficult and and shameful history.
46:56There's the issue of historical
46:58revisionism about music,
46:59rituals at the installations and
47:02ceremonies not aligning with the people
47:06who are actually being memorialized.
47:08And, and as I just mentioned,
47:10the issue of desecration whose
47:13preference and morality.
47:15Used for modes of memory memorialization
47:18and there are many other issues as well.
47:23So for demining, the Stolpersteine
47:25and the aggregate and the singular
47:28comprise a work of art that will never,
47:30can never be complete.
47:33Still, many relatives express a deep
47:36sense of closure, even catharsis.
47:39Once the stone has been laid.
47:43A descendant expressed it like this.
47:46I feel a burden has been lifted.
47:48Now there is a place with
47:50their name to remember them.
47:53And I will end here and thank
47:54you for your attention and I
47:55look forward to the discussion.
48:07I'll take this and you can.
48:15Thank you so much.
48:17Esserman though that was.
48:19Extraordinary was it was
48:21moving and educational and.
48:25I I think that. To be at these places
48:28and see these memorials, it's so moving.
48:30But the way this was presented,
48:32I think also I was very
48:34impressed upon many of us.
48:36I'll tell you just personally.
48:37So for me when I come to these things,
48:38I like to learn about a lots of things
48:41and what I always try and learn is,
48:44is a try and get an idea about
48:45how to teach and and to use this
48:47as a vehicle to teach us of so
48:49much history as well as so much a
48:51contemporary approach to the history.
48:53It was really exceptional.
48:54I thank you very much for that.
48:56We have microphones.
48:57Available for those in the
48:58audience who have questions,
49:00we have time
49:00for a couple of questions.
49:04One question that I had.
49:07Unfortunately, you answered a
49:08couple of questions that I had
49:10as we went along as I saw this
49:11the darker side of me thought I
49:13wonder how many of these have been
49:15vandalized and and you answered that
49:17with that that many of them have,
49:18but there's an insistence on
49:19replacing. Yeah very few have been in
49:23relation to the nearly 100,000 but.
49:28They, but occasionally they are, yeah.
49:31You mentioned also that,
49:33I mean this is expanded to many
49:35countries and in the US Now the same
49:38method has been used for victims of
49:40racial violence and other things.
49:42For a question I would ask is,
49:44has this particular work of art
49:46and it's made across the ocean,
49:48are there Americans who found
49:50themselves caught up in Europe and
49:52were murdered during the Nazi era?
49:54That's a very good question and it's
49:56something that we're looking into
49:57now and I don't yet have the answers.
49:59So stay tuned in next year.
50:01In the book, hopefully will be finished.
50:03We'll have the answer.
50:04So but there probably are.
50:07Thank you very much for that.
50:09I have a question here on the line.
50:13Let me just see if I can make this go for us.
50:20Thanks for this. This is a long
50:22question so relax here for a second, OK?
50:24Thanks for this wonderful and moving talk,
50:27Ruth, and anthropological question.
50:28In many ritual systems around the world,
50:31mirrors and reflective
50:33surfaces are understood as.
50:36Divinatory portals or windows
50:38between the living and the dead.
50:40Is something similar at play,
50:42perhaps in the stumbling stones,
50:43which are shiny if not quite reflective,
50:46as quasi ritual spaces of symbolic
50:49exchange between domains of life and death?
50:52Are they efficacious windows
50:54into other times and domains?
50:56Might the accessory it's written here too,
50:58you remember.
50:58Might the acts of polishing
51:00the stones and this guy was
51:02paying attention to the talk?
51:03Might the acts of polishing the stones
51:06and the musical performances perhaps be
51:08understood as ritual offerings intensifying?
51:11The uncanny sense of the living
51:13caring for or nurturing the lost.
51:16Even pressing the silent,
51:17the pressing of the silent doorbells could
51:20be seen as attempted communication with,
51:22or portal opening with the dead.
51:26In a durkheimian sense,
51:28then,
51:29do the stones actively mediate
51:31between individual and collective
51:33encounters with dead souls?
51:36Wow. We could thank you Mark Elslander.
51:41We could be here all day
51:44trying to answer that.
51:46The reflective surface is a
51:48wonderful observation and I
51:50will need to think about that.
51:53I don't have an answer in terms of
51:58mediating between the living and the dead.
52:01I would say absolutely,
52:03it definitely does that symbolic work.
52:08So in a durkheimian sense, yes.
52:11And the pressing of the doorbells.
52:15I love that idea as a portal
52:17opening with the dead.
52:18And I think for many people who encounter it,
52:21especially encountering it randomly,
52:23it could very well do that.
52:25And I've been told that sometimes
52:28delivery drivers who you know,
52:31are trying to ring doorbells and
52:33get very confused by the two.
52:35So it it does force people to confront,
52:40you know, their own local history in
52:42very unexpected ways. And this is.
52:45I think one of the functions,
52:47purposes and most powerful aspects
52:49of what we call counter memorials.
52:52So it's not a man on a horse with a
52:54plaque that tells you what to think.
52:57So it's quite different from that.
52:58And it's also very different
53:00from kind of massive memorials,
53:02umm, you know,
53:04that memorialize the aggregate
53:066 million or or other groups.
53:08So I think I should stop there with it.
53:10Thank you very much. We have
53:12questions from the audience.
53:15Hi, Ruth. I wanted to ask first first to
53:19thank you for a wonderful presentation.
53:20And then I wanted to ask you to maybe
53:24reflect on the equal Justice Initiative
53:27Memorial to lynching in Montgomery, AL.
53:29I don't know if you're aware
53:32of that project and umm.
53:34The difference that I'm seeing there
53:36is that there's a memorial site
53:39there that has a county by county
53:42representations of locations where.
53:44Black Americans were lynched and
53:46then there they have created two,
53:48a copy of each one that is then
53:51made available for those places
53:54to to take to their space.
53:56And I just wondered if you had any
53:58like sort of reflections on like that
54:01what makes that similar and different.
54:03Maybe it feels like it's it's it's
54:06this offering and an invitation on
54:09the part of the memorial makers as
54:11opposed to the sort of sponsoring
54:13component of the Stolper.
54:15Don't know if that makes any sense.
54:18Yeah. Thank you.
54:19I didn't have time to to talk about
54:22that and but I'm a huge fan of Bryan
54:25Stevenson and his work and I haven't
54:27yet had a chance to to visit the museum.
54:31I'm looking forward to being able
54:33to visit it and I do think it's it
54:37is very analogous to this kind of
54:39counter memorial and I think it's a
54:42brilliant way to memorialize horror and.
54:45And in a highly localized sense
54:48with the with the, you know,
54:50specific lynchings and naming them.
54:52So yes, thank you for raising that.
54:56We'll take one more question
54:58from the audience. OK.
55:00Well, two questions from one guy.
55:01Fair enough.
55:04A very two guys and that's it.
55:06You want to hear a
55:09short question,
55:09a little bit more political and legal.
55:131st Thank you for your wonderful talk.
55:16Can you tell us more?
55:17And specifically with regard to Poland
55:20and the law prohibited prohibiting
55:23people from implicating Poland or
55:26blaming Poland in the Nazi crimes,
55:30are you aware of any actual
55:33prosecutions of people attempting
55:35to install the stones?
55:37Or can you tell us any more
55:40about what's going on?
55:41Yeah. Thank you.
55:45Almost everywhere. I could say.
55:46Everywhere that they're installed,
55:50they have to get.
55:53Permission from the local authorities,
55:55from the municipal government,
55:56the village, the town,
55:58the hamlet, whatever.
56:01And it's very rare in Poland to get that
56:05permission for for a variety of reasons.
56:07As you pointed out, the official
56:10political ideology is that, you know,
56:12the Holocaust had nothing to do with us.
56:14It was the Germans who imposed it.
56:16And, yeah, and,
56:18but there have been some exceptions,
56:22and I've been told that.
56:23This summer in Bialystock,
56:25the very first Stolpersteine
56:27will be installed there.
56:29And if it is,
56:30I look forward to attending the ceremony.
56:35There are actually a couple in
56:37the town of Auschwitz but Gunter,
56:40damning, thought it was very important
56:42that there be some in Warsaw but,
56:44and there's not a single
56:46one in Warsaw or in Krakow.
56:48And he approached the Warsaw
56:51City government and offered.
56:54To bring 50 stones to put in the one
56:58of the entries to the Warsaw Ghetto.
57:00And he said I will pay for them,
57:02I will handle all of it.
57:04It won't cost you anything.
57:05And they kept putting him off and saying,
57:08oh, they're a health hazard,
57:11people might trip over them and
57:13architecturally it will work.
57:14Said they just for years kept,
57:17you know, we're very obstructionist
57:19and we didn't allow them.
57:23So. With this government,
57:24it's unlikely that there will be many more.
57:27But, and some people have said,
57:29well, what's the point in in Poland,
57:31the whole country would be paved with them,
57:33to which one might say yes.
57:36That's yeah so.
57:39Thank you, Torsten.
57:43Is it done? Yeah. Yeah. Good.
57:44See from. It looks threatening,
57:47as if I have so much to say,
57:48but see, it's probably easy.
57:49Thank you so much for the
57:51wonderful presentation.
57:54What I think is one of the many
57:56extremely valuable aspects of what
57:58you're doing is of course that really
58:00puts focus on the performative aspects
58:01of memorials and memory studies for a
58:03long time has been neglecting that.
58:05So I think the way that you analyze
58:07how people interact with it and go
58:09there and kind of with I think it's
58:11so important that really like that.
58:13What I was wondering about is you
58:16emphasized how there is this danger
58:18of other countries using it to
58:20whitewash themselves and get out.
58:22And I'm surprised by that because
58:25the way that I'm tempted to interpret
58:28the fact that now we are at 100,000
58:30and I have experienced how when I've
58:32been telling people about this back
58:35in the 90s said oh, now we have 2000,
58:36now we have 89,
58:37that we have this high number and
58:39so many European countries involved
58:40that this could also be seen as
58:42a part of the process.
58:44Of acknowledgement of complicity
58:45by other European societies.
58:47There seems to be both aspects
58:49in the but my question is.
58:51That I wonder where you position your
58:54scholarship and your analysis in that
58:56discussion that I see boiling up,
58:58particularly in the German context.
59:00And that's of course.
59:02The shift that we see over the
59:04last 1020 thirty years when the
59:07Stolpersteine are initiated.
59:09They go come into a 90s context
59:11where demonic of course,
59:12in many ways wants to push back against
59:14the Central Holocaust Memorial, right?
59:16I mean with all respect, but says.
59:18This is only has only certain values,
59:21but I want to do something different.
59:23I want to look at the victims individually,
59:24etcetera.
59:25I want to be local, etcetera.
59:28Um, but that moment,
59:30of course,
59:30also indicated through other things.
59:32That was the very much one of the
59:35most important processes for a
59:37state control of memory politics.
59:39And in Germany, right?
59:40The fact that the Bundestag takes
59:41over the Holocaust Memorial.
59:43It started as a grassroots thing,
59:44and it was a crucial and deeply
59:47problematic decision to say it's
59:49mainly about the Jewish victims.
59:53Mainly about the Jewish victims,
59:54the rivalry and the competition and
59:56the question of who which victim
59:58group should be memorialized.
59:59So it was a very important.
01:00:02Choosing of certain directions
01:00:03in the 90s now.
01:00:05What we've seen now is of course a messy.
01:00:09Ugly, difficult,
01:00:10potentially necessary discussion
01:00:12that started with Achille Ambis
01:00:16Disinviting from the word Trenal
01:00:18and Dirk Moses article about the
01:00:21Catechism of the Germans being all
01:00:23about the singularity of the Holocaust.
01:00:25And there are a lot of discussions
01:00:27in Germany going on right now,
01:00:29also with a very belated reception
01:00:31of Michael Rothberg's plea
01:00:32for multidirectional memory,
01:00:34which is exactly that whole point about
01:00:36also having come stumbling blocks to.
01:00:39In other historical context,
01:00:41so wonder what where you see.
01:00:43Your research and the discussion
01:00:45around the STORSTEIN in 2023 and
01:00:48that radical revision of German
01:00:50and European politics of memory.
01:00:56Again, I think we should talk about
01:00:58this over lunch and dinner and
01:00:59for the next month or two. But.
01:01:04Yeah, where to start?
01:01:08OK. One of the things you
01:01:10mentioned about whether.
01:01:11You know the control of it
01:01:13as a Jewish memorial versus
01:01:15a a more a broader one and.
01:01:21In some cases, the the project has come into
01:01:24conflict with local Jewish communities,
01:01:27one case in particular.
01:01:31That he and that Demmings group insisted
01:01:35that he place it on Shabbat and so that
01:01:39meant that the local Jewish community,
01:01:42which was quite religious, could not,
01:01:44would not attend and it really was
01:01:46a a difficult alienating process.
01:01:49Whereas he doesn't feel like he wants
01:01:51to be Co opted by any community.
01:01:53And for him it's his art project
01:01:55and you know, his schedule does
01:01:58not need to align with.
01:02:01With Jews or gypsies or or any any group so.
01:02:06So I think that's an important
01:02:09differentiation from the
01:02:11state sponsored you know,
01:02:13memorial to the European murdered Jews.
01:02:18So should I?
01:02:19I don't know what timing.
01:02:22If you want,
01:02:23I was worried you would.
01:02:27And I could take over your leg.
01:02:31I'm going to need a few minutes
01:02:33to to think about your, you know,
01:02:35incredibly observant, prescient questions.
01:02:41But, you know, I think
01:02:43we'll have to carry that on.
01:02:44You know that discussion on later.
01:02:46But you know, I would love to have
01:02:48all of the answers for that yet,
01:02:50but I don't yet.
01:02:52But I will be working on it.
01:02:53So stay tuned.
01:02:54Thank you very much.
01:02:57Thank you so much, Professor Mandel.