Yale Symposium on Holocaust and Genocide: Intro

February 23, 2023

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February 2, 2023

Supported by the Lindenthal Family

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00:07My name is Mark Mercurio.
00:08I'm the director of the program
00:09for Biomedical Ethics here at
00:10the Yale School of Medicine.
00:12And today, of course,
00:13is a very special day,
00:14an event we've been planning for a long time.
00:16This is our symposium on
00:18Holocaust and Genocide.
00:19And I've got a few announcements and
00:20and people I want to make you aware of,
00:22and then we'll be getting to it with our
00:24first speaker in just a couple of minutes.
00:26But I will keep on behalf of myself,
00:28on behalf of the manager of our program,
00:30Karen Cole,
00:31who many of you have been in touch with.
00:32Karen's in the back there in
00:34charge of logistics and stuff.
00:36And of course Jack Hughes and
00:37Sarah Hall are associate directors.
00:39So we're all very pleased you're here.
00:41It's nice to have.
00:42We are in the process this year
00:44of reassembling our bioethics
00:45community here at Yale.
00:47After being on just online,
00:49we we never lost touch,
00:50but we did a lot of programs on zoom
00:53and now we do a lot of programs hybrid.
00:55So we do have.
00:56A large zoom audience.
00:57We have about 170 folks registered
00:59for the zoom and another 130
01:00who are registered to be here
01:02at some point during the day.
01:03So a very big crowd and we're
01:05so pleased you're here.
01:07In addition,
01:07you know online on the zoom we
01:09have folks from coast to coast,
01:11there are folks from Massachusetts
01:13to California as well as in
01:15Switzerland and France and we also
01:16have some special folks here.
01:18I want to welcome obviously the Yale
01:20faculty and staff and students,
01:22many folks from the Holocaust Memorial,
01:23Miami Beach there are in the audience and.
01:26Online children of Holocaust
01:28survivors a special welcome to them.
01:31There are representatives here from
01:33the fellowships at Auschwitz for
01:34the study of professional ethics,
01:36a group called FASPE that I've
01:37been involved with,
01:38Jack and Sarah and and we work
01:40closely with them in the partnership.
01:42And in fact,
01:42our first speaker is a member
01:44of that organization.
01:45I'll introduce him in just a moment.
01:47There's rabbis and staff from
01:49statewide Jewish organizations,
01:50the Jewish Federation of Greater New Haven.
01:53There are folks listening in from Harvard,
01:54Columbia, Quinnipiac, Rutgers,
01:56Fairfield and Chicago.
02:01Importantly in the audience right down
02:03here is my friend Jacob Lindenthal
02:06and also his sister Rachel Linenthal.
02:08Jacob is himself quite
02:10accomplished as an academician.
02:12Jacob has doctorates from yeshiva
02:15and from Colombia and from Yale,
02:19and has over 40 years on the
02:21faculty at Rutgers and is now a
02:23professor emeritus at Rutgers.
02:24Jacob approached me with this idea
02:26a few years back and this symposium.
02:30Which Jacob very generously
02:31supports as really his brainchild.
02:33So I want to thank Jacob for
02:34being here and thank him,
02:35of course for the generous support,
02:37and so we'll get a chance
02:38to hang out all day.
02:42Thank you to Doctor Linenthal
02:44to the Lindenthal family.
02:46Now, what else do I need to tell you?
02:47The important stuff.
02:48OK, so the men's room is,
02:50as you're facing me, on your left.
02:52You can just go through those side
02:53doors or through the back door,
02:54but it's on that hallway right along there,
02:56and the ladies room is along here.
03:00The food will be back there
03:01just for a few more minutes.
03:02Hopefully you guys had a chance to get that.
03:04We'll be getting into a break
03:06in just a little bit after the
03:08first couple of speakers. Umm.
03:11I think that's all the announcements
03:12I want to announce right now.
03:13I'll say some other things over the course,
03:15over the course of the morning.
03:17I think right now what I'd like to do
03:19is introduce you to a friend of mine,
03:22someone who I.
03:23I've worked with over the years
03:25and as we put this together,
03:28I thought, well, man,
03:29if we could get Torsten
03:30Wagner to do this with me,
03:31this would be just wonderful.
03:33He's an extraordinarily accomplished
03:35historian and and educator.
03:38So a little bit about my
03:39friend Torsten Wagner,
03:40who's a German historian.
03:41Born in Denmark,
03:42he completed undergraduate studies
03:44at the University of Tubingen in
03:46Germany and graduate studies at
03:47Hebrew University in Jerusalem,
03:49as well as the Technische Universitat
03:50in Berlin and the Free Universe dot
03:53in Berlin postgraduate studies.
03:54We're at the University of
03:56Wisconsin at Madison.
03:58He was based in Berlin for many years.
03:59He held positions as an educator
04:01at the Jewish Museum of Berlin and
04:03a research fellow at the Danish
04:04Center for Holocaust and Genocide
04:06Studies in Copenhagen and at the
04:08Department of Scandinavian Studies
04:09at Humboldt University in Berlin.
04:11From 2010 to 2019 he was an associate
04:14professor of modern European history at
04:16the Danish Institute for Study Abroad,
04:19the University of Copenhagen,
04:20and since 2019 he has been the
04:23executive Director of fast speed,
04:24the fellowships at Auschwitz
04:25for the study of professional
04:27ethics based in New York City.
04:28This is an organization that brings
04:31professional students from all across
04:33the country for a very intense 2
04:35week course in professional ethics
04:36that is based around the historical
04:39experiences of the Nazi era.
04:42And that's that's something
04:44that I won't get into now,
04:45but except to say that through
04:47working with that organization,
04:48I had the opportunity to see one
04:49of the best teachers I've had the
04:51privilege of seeing in my career.
04:53Who is Torsten Wagner?
04:55He has done a number of other things,
04:56but I think I've said enough for now,
04:59Torsten,
05:00if you'd be kind enough to come
05:01up and start our program off.
05:04You know this phenomenon,
05:05when people introduce you and
05:06you're listening to it in real,
05:07you're wondering who's he talking
05:08about with all these nice words.
05:10And then let's talk with you.
05:12Thank you Mark for this wonderful.
05:16Reduction and also the invitation
05:18again to to work together and
05:20Karen for sitting and all up.
05:22There she is. Umm.
05:27What I'm going to focus on,
05:28as you can see, is the whole question
05:31about how to define doctors and
05:33understand them as perpetrators.
05:35But where I want to start is with the,
05:38the story of that Nicole
05:40Rost has shared with us.
05:42Nicole Ross was a nurse,
05:45a prisoner nurse at Dachau,
05:48and he reports how he.
05:52Ends up having this bizarre experiences
05:54that a he's talking with a patient
05:57that or with a person who's recently
05:59coming into the hospital in the
06:01house towards the end of the war,
06:03not long time before the liberation.
06:05And it turns out that this is a.
06:09Polish person who is an architect and
06:12he's not there because he's a patient.
06:14He's just a prisoner at that house.
06:16And then cost starts to have a
06:18conversation with him and he realizes
06:20that this architect is there because
06:22the doctors at the camp hospital
06:24at the house wants to talk with the
06:27architect about how to design all their
06:29villas and nice big houses that they
06:31soon are going to build in the South
06:33of Germany and in the Alps and other places.
06:36And they're just flabbergasted
06:37because this is April 6th,
06:381945 and he's wondering where is his mind.
06:41You know,
06:41where are these hospitals?
06:42What are these doctors thinking that
06:44they believe that they will still
06:46have a post war scenario where they
06:48will be able to just enjoy the fruits
06:51of their work and have their villas?
06:54Now if we just Fast forward
06:56to a moment in the 1970s,
06:58eventually one of the doctors kind
07:01of shooks ends up being brought to
07:03trial and he actually gets sentenced.
07:06But in the end there is a.
07:11A state Doctor Who credits him and says,
07:15well,
07:15you're too old and you're too sick,
07:16you don't need to go to prison.
07:18And eventually he actually is able
07:20to go to Stan Benghazi in the Alps
07:22and spend the last 10-15 years of
07:24his life in the wonderful vilap,
07:25right?
07:26So that just as an anecdote about how
07:28we all know how many of the doctors,
07:31the vast majority of course,
07:32end up never being brought to justice,
07:34there are some,
07:35but it's of course more or less
07:38the exception in many ways.
07:40What we also know as a starting point is,
07:42of course,
07:43that that is the end of a story that
07:46begins with the fact that a lot of
07:49medical professionals were very open,
07:52very receptive to Nazi ideology,
07:55to the party,
07:56to becoming members of the party,
07:58to the policies of Nazism.
08:00And they were highly involved in the
08:03various mass crimes of Nazi Germany.
08:05And we are of course still asking
08:08ourselves why, and trying to map that.
08:09Who were these doctors?
08:12Why did they become perpetrators
08:14or accomplices?
08:15What were the motives,
08:16the driving forces, the objectives?
08:18What role did their milieu,
08:21their professional,
08:22social and personal context play?
08:24Even after decades of scholarship,
08:27that is not so clear and we are still in
08:29the process of mapping that and
08:31getting a better understanding of that.
08:33Let's see if we can get this to work.
08:36No. Do it here. Whoops, too far.
08:43So what I'd like to discuss
08:45with you is this question about
08:49who and what is a perpetrator.
08:50How can we define it?
08:53What is a medical crime?
08:55Can is there ways to define the
08:59medical edness of Nazi crimes?
09:01And what have we learned about
09:03the doctors and their motives?
09:06And I think it's worth,
09:07just for a moment asking ourselves.
09:09Why we're here?
09:10Why we thinking about these things?
09:12Why this history seems relevant to us?
09:15Obviously we want to commemorate
09:17the suffering of the victims just
09:19being a few days after January 27th,
09:21the day of liberation of
09:23Auschwitz and so many contexts,
09:24together with the Yama show of course,
09:26the moment in the year where we can.
09:29Commemorate them?
09:30That's definitely a purpose.
09:32Is it because we want to learn
09:34about the German doctors and
09:36German society beyond that?
09:38Is it because we want to learn about
09:40Nazism as ideology and as a period?
09:43Or does the exploration of the
09:45specific medical crimes of 1933,
09:47nineteen to 1945,
09:48tell us something about medicine
09:50and the medical profession in
09:52general and for that matter?
09:54Of course then also is relevant for
09:57medical ethics of future doctors.
09:59So let us get started with looking
10:02at how the understanding of
10:04perpetrators has changed in the
10:07course of the 7080 years that people
10:10have been thinking about this.
10:13Or you can call gone and other
10:15riders already shortly after 45,
10:17had a tendency to describe the
10:19perpetrators as failed existences,
10:22as hooligans or as wannabe intellectuals.
10:25Underachieving academics.
10:27And yes.
10:31Overtime. Sure. Could you just start over?
10:40You can put it on the time.
10:42How does this work now?
10:43Still OK, better, yeah.
10:50So very often more seen as marginal figures
10:52in the academic scene who often have
10:55been unemployed and kind of irrelevant,
10:58that then is added or even refuted by a
11:03second context of images that surround it.
11:07And that's of course something that we
11:09in many ways will also address when
11:11David Marvel will talk about a mingler,
11:13because in many ways the Mingala syndrome
11:15was part of a second complex of images.
11:17Of the diabolic beasts where it's
11:21very relatively obvious that we see
11:23that people split off evil right and
11:25kind of position it so to speak,
11:27and figures like Mangala the sadistic
11:30psychopath and or fanatic anti
11:32Semites frothing at their mouth.
11:35And the interesting thing is that
11:36that image that of course goes back
11:37all the way to the first one,
11:38two decades after 45,
11:40has been alive and kicking
11:42for decades after that.
11:43And one interview,
11:44whether it really stands out and then
11:46other scholars have written about regularly
11:48is an interview with Karsten Vilmar,
11:51who back then was the the director of
11:54the German Medical Association in 1987.
11:56Right.
11:57So we're talking 40 years later here.
11:59Who's still in that interview defends
12:01the majority of German doctors and says,
12:03let's not forget that
12:04this was a tiny subgroup,
12:06354 hundred doctors out of 90,000
12:09German doctors who don't blame
12:11the 90,000 for the 300.
12:13And they were marginalized,
12:14they were outside of society,
12:16they were pathological,
12:16they were deviant, demonic,
12:18delusional as fanatics, right.
12:19So you can still see how there's
12:21this attempt, of course,
12:23to create that distance.
12:25First step in the process that many
12:27of you will be familiar with is of
12:30course the tendency to look at the
12:33ordinary mediocre paper pusher,
12:34the quotidian functionary who is
12:37an overly zealous administrator,
12:38the COG in the wheel following
12:40orders were shocking and normal.
12:42And of course we can contrast the
12:44images moving from mingala or
12:46the perception of mingala.
12:48We'll talk about the real Mangala,
12:50whatever that exactly is.
12:51Of course later.
12:52But the image of Mangala versus
12:54the image of Eichmann.
12:55Obviously here.
12:57So we're talking about early 60s,
12:58when this really pushes in.
13:00And so the bureaucrat is doing his job,
13:03mainly his job in highly
13:06complex modern societies.
13:07He's not bothering about the consequences
13:09of his work and his criminal dimensions,
13:12and again of course emphasized
13:13that this means he cannot shrink,
13:15and what she meant was thinking.
13:17I believe is of course that.
13:21You're not able to reflect on the choices
13:24and the responsibility that you have.
13:26So this focus on the division of
13:29Labor both fit the experience of
13:32an audience and of people who are
13:33part of the discussion in the 60s,
13:35but of course also fit wonderfully with
13:38the exculpatory strategies of the time.
13:42By the way, if you think about
13:44how to define perpetrators,
13:45you would think that the first person
13:48and the first context you go to.
13:50Are the is the judicial system right?
13:53I mean, isn't that their job right
13:55to define who commits a crime there?
13:57They have generations of experience in that.
14:00But when we look at many
14:02different national contexts,
14:04particularly the West German context,
14:06of course that is one big failure, right?
14:08That the legal system, of course is,
14:09I'm sure many of you will be familiar with,
14:12really failed.
14:13And the number of people
14:15who are actually prosecuted,
14:16brought to trial, sentenced in the 50s,
14:19is of course even dwindling.
14:20And of course that's a decade and
14:22only picks up a little bit later,
14:24so that's of course an important
14:26factor to keep in mind.
14:301/4 strand, in terms of understanding
14:32and thinking about the perpetrators
14:33is of course the emphasis on
14:35the machinery of extermination.
14:37The realization that actually
14:38had been taken much earlier,
14:40but had had a very hard time
14:42getting into a broader discussion.
14:44And I'm of course talking
14:45about Hilbert here, right?
14:46Just imagine you write a book
14:47that is really important for
14:49German history in the 50s.
14:51And when is it published in German?
14:5482 all right.
14:55And even in English I think it
14:57took years before it came out and
14:59not talking about the reception
15:00and the discussion of course.
15:02So Hilbert very early on of course said
15:04these this murder was a murder that
15:06all of German society was involved with.
15:08The accomplices came from a broad
15:11cross section of German society and
15:13the machinery of examination was only a
15:15variation of modern organized society.
15:17I human was not banal,
15:19he controlled the machinery.
15:20And of course there was not much love
15:22lost between Argant and Hilbert.
15:24That's a different topic.
15:25And people continued to practice
15:28their profession.
15:29There was no specific
15:31training needed necessarily,
15:32for the spotlight was really on the
15:35central complicity of the elites in
15:37German society, so Hilberg emphasizes.
15:41How?
15:42The elements of the machinery,
15:44the railway employees, the managers,
15:46the lawyers, the doctors,
15:47the engineers were able to.
15:48He dared.
15:49He did ignore the individual motifs.
15:52He did ignore factors like
15:53ideology or the utopian ideas.
15:55There were some things we would
15:57probably see critical today,
15:58but that was a massive leap forward
16:00in terms of understanding it.
16:01And I think that it's safe to say that he
16:03was right about Eichmann in many ways.
16:04Of course, also that somebody, Eichmann,
16:07did think about what he was doing.
16:10Now.
16:12Around the late 70s and into the 80s,
16:15there's a new discussion developing both
16:17in broader thinking about Nazi history
16:20and also within the medical context.
16:23And one important turning point is
16:26a competing alternative conference
16:29of doctors that happens in Berlin
16:31in 19 W Berlin in 1980,
16:33where people say there is the
16:35official doctors Congress.
16:36They are so obviously not dealing
16:38with their past.
16:39We're going to do an alternative Congress.
16:41But even when these first initiatives
16:44are taken to ask the critical questions
16:46about what ordinary Germans did,
16:48what ordinary doctors did in that period,
16:51there's still this strong and relatively
16:54narrow focus on the Nazi doctor in me.
16:57Which on the one hand,
16:58in many ways seems big leap forward,
17:01right?
17:01Because it means let's drop this
17:03whole thing about distancing
17:04yourself without pretending that
17:05you have nothing to do with this.
17:06So there's this emphasis on looking
17:08at the continuities and medical
17:10thinking and medical practice,
17:12of course.
17:12But on the other hand,
17:14the problem here is what the Nazi
17:18doctors actually did.
17:20Why they did it still remains sparking,
17:22right.
17:23So it becomes this abstract category
17:24that you try to think about,
17:26but we know very little
17:27about that of course stays
17:29for a while this kind of aspect
17:31in that transition period.
17:35So we can see this growing interest
17:37but also this clear limitations.
17:39Of course there is nevertheless an
17:43enormous growth of important scholarship.
17:45I'm just going to mention people
17:47like Gisela Bock who looks at
17:49sterilization for sterilization,
17:50or Hansen, Ashmol and many.
17:52And of course Robert J Lifton
17:54whose theory of doubling today.
17:56Of course many people would
17:57seem very critical and distant
17:59themselves for as scholars,
18:01but nevertheless a lot in this
18:02massive work that listen starts
18:04in late 70s and publishes.
18:0580s.
18:05Things point forward to important
18:07developments in the research on
18:09medical crimes and the perpetrators,
18:11of course, in years later.
18:15Those of you who are knowledgeable
18:17about the scholarship about the
18:19Holocaust know that these were very
18:21unproductive years because scholars
18:22were caught in a debate between the
18:25intentional lists that strongly
18:26focused on the ideology and Hitler,
18:28and then the structuralist who had a
18:30tendency just to talk about anonymous
18:32structures developing and changing.
18:33And there were no victims and
18:34there were no perpetrators, right?
18:36So I'm not going to waste
18:37our time either on that.
18:38But that's of course where a lot of the
18:41discussion and the scholarship went.
18:43But what we can see then is that in the
18:45course of the 80s and into the 90s,
18:47there is a growing unease and
18:50unhappiness with these kind of
18:52industrial mechanic references.
18:54And people realize that's not really
18:56what we read and learn about.
18:58There was a much more direct
19:00involvement of human beings.
19:01Not everything.
19:02Everything was industrial and and you
19:05know conveyor belt kind of murder.
19:08There was a lot of killers and
19:10those who were complicit,
19:12who were much closer to the victims
19:14and the metaphor and the image
19:15and the real item of that was of
19:17course in many ways the bullet,
19:18right, the murder by bullets that
19:21really moves into the picture.
19:22And we could add,
19:24metaphorically speaking,
19:25that was a growing awareness of the syringe.
19:28Also as a way of killing right,
19:30this kind of much more direct
19:32interaction between the complicit
19:34perpetrator or the complicit
19:36professional and and and the victim.
19:39That of course leads to important
19:41scholarship that very much is
19:43connected with Christopher Browning
19:44and his ordinary men book,
19:46where he analyzed the Police
19:48Reserve Police Battalion,
19:49another one and the book came out in 1992.
19:51And he makes an important point that
19:53we're still kind of profiting from
19:56this emphasis on how biography,
19:59the biographical details of people
20:01very often do not explain much about
20:04why somebody becomes a perpetrator.
20:06It's not about class, it's not about Miller,
20:08it's not about religion, right,
20:10that people come from very different
20:11backgrounds,
20:12and that very often is surprisingly
20:14quotidian and familiar.
20:16Social psychology,
20:18psychological or situational factors
20:21can make very ordinary people.
20:23Intra perpetrators.
20:23It did not take Nazi believers.
20:26That's of course an important
20:27challenge that has stayed with us
20:29for the last what is this, 30 years?
20:31And competing.
20:32And those are overlapping with him,
20:34of course. Daniel Goldhagen at the same
20:36time looked at some of the similar sources,
20:38and his book about the ordinary Germans
20:41was of course massively criticized
20:43and has massive flaws, which I'm
20:45also not going to waste time on now.
20:47But he did one very important,
20:49interesting thing that I for me,
20:50it took years to realize because I was
20:52so much more the student of those who
20:54had were busy pushing back against him.
20:56But what we've seen 1020 years
20:58later is of course that Goldhagen
21:00made one very important.
21:02Point, he said. We might.
21:04Fundamentally be asking the wrong question.
21:09We should not ask how people succeeded to
21:12make other people do things they reject
21:15and see and see as unjust and unnecessary.
21:18But we need to acknowledge that
21:20they wanted to do what they did.
21:22Very unpleasant. But you can see how
21:24that was really a threshold, right?
21:26It's always saying, how could they do
21:27it and how did they make them do it?
21:30And who gave the order just
21:32radically changing things around
21:33what if they actually wanted it?
21:35For whatever complex reasons and
21:37that's of course really was a
21:39threshold that we needed to cross
21:40and that has remained important.
21:42And this is the starting point for
21:45the first time for a period from the
21:47mid 90s into the early 2000s and some
21:50degree to some degree even beyond that,
21:53we actually ended up with perpetrator
21:55research right where there
21:56was not with a few exceptions.
21:58We didn't have much research
22:00on perpetrators before that.
22:02And now then at that point of
22:04time we end up with empirically
22:06rich studies to actually that went
22:07in and looked at who were they,
22:10what did they do,
22:10why did they do it and so on.
22:12That's of course when you understood that
22:15the the dynamics of that development
22:17was much more a complex one of certain
22:19orders coming from the center,
22:21certain decisions being made in
22:23the periphery or in the region or
22:25in the local circumstances,
22:26it would much more became
22:28an interplay between.
22:29Becomes top down and what comes bottom up,
22:31all the kind of complexities.
22:32Of course much more came into the
22:34focus and made us rethink and I re
22:37understand what the crimes of Nazism
22:39were all about in this setting.
22:41And of course, by the way,
22:43this also very much meant that we
22:45ended up understanding that the
22:47number of perpetrators is much
22:49higher than than we thought.
22:51The current numbers that I am familiar
22:54is that we think about beyond 200,000,
22:57right above 200,000 numbers of people
22:59who actually are directly involved in crimes.
23:02And that does not mean the German
23:04soldiers of course in many ways also had,
23:06I mean the mass soldiers also
23:08had roles in it.
23:09So very different setting from
23:11just thinking about a few thousand
23:12bad guys that were part of this.
23:16And two very important scholars then
23:21created the next quantum Leap that is
23:23for sure ulich habit and Michael Vilt,
23:25because what they helped us to
23:28understand is that the category
23:30generation and specific different
23:33institutions actually matters.
23:35There's very much these guys will behave,
23:37but of course in many ways became
23:39the spiritual director of this whole
23:41generation of perpetrator research.
23:43And what he emphasized is,
23:46of course the the specific cohort
23:48that we since then mainly called
23:50the war Youth generation.
23:52I don't know how much you've come
23:53across that phenomenon already,
23:54but a lot of the central players
23:57of that period, of course,
23:59are born in the window between 1900 and 1910.
24:04And what that generation, of course,
24:06has in common is that they are.
24:10Old enough still to be all inspired
24:13by the hyper nationalist atmosphere
24:16of the German kaiserreich.
24:19But too young in many cases to
24:22actually fight in World War One to be
24:25disillusioned about this nationalism.
24:26And it's that cohort that then ends
24:29up moving into the student movement.
24:32Umm, the folkish, rather ethnocentric,
24:36hyper nationalist,
24:37anti-Semitic student movement of the
24:39early 1920s and eventually will be the
24:42leading figures in the professions,
24:44the medical profession and in other areas,
24:46also in the course of the 1930s,
24:48so these very young.
24:51Kind of middle management leaders
24:52of the Nazi crimes of 30s were the
24:55students of the 20s and the war
24:57youth generation born in 1919.
24:59So this is what with the focus on
25:02then at best as highly second hand,
25:05but also for many others of course what
25:07we haven't really help us to understand.
25:09And parallel to that,
25:10of course also Michael Wilde looks
25:11at the role of the institution
25:13because he looks at a collective
25:14biography of all the leadership
25:16of the right security main office,
25:17which basically isn't police and a few
25:20other organizations that are fused.
25:21And he can identify similar things,
25:23but he makes a strong additional point.
25:24It's just not only generation.
25:27It's also that generation might
25:29explain why a certain cohort is
25:32very susceptible to Nazi ideology,
25:35but that doesn't necessarily turn
25:37them into perpetrated and perpetrators
25:38of mass murderers.
25:39You need two additional factors.
25:41You need very extraordinary
25:43institutional structures that mold
25:45you in a process into perpetrators
25:48and that specific setting.
25:49Or for example,
25:50the city has helped and and you
25:52need a specific saturation of the
25:54war and of some war,
25:55but the specific kind of war.
25:57Germany was raging, particularly in the east,
25:59of course.
25:59That support,
26:00of course,
26:00why generation and institutions
26:02were very important factors that
26:05helped us understand these dynamics
26:07in many ways in that moment.
26:11Eventually, of course,
26:12built was also one of the persons
26:14who really helped us understand
26:16the importance of the national
26:18community and the exclusive nature
26:20character of the national community,
26:21the Fork schema and shaft, in this process.
26:23And that's the last point that I
26:25just want to touch on and that's
26:27of course the significance of.
26:29The transformation of values and norms that
26:31take place in these decades at the same time,
26:34right this notion that we
26:37actually take our decisions.
26:39Based on our interpretations of situations.
26:42Right, we look at the situation,
26:44we try to understand it,
26:45and then we take our decisions.
26:47So the question must be,
26:49where are the processes and the
26:51situations by which Germans,
26:53and for that matter,
26:55complicit Europeans,
26:55decided to become complicit,
26:57and why?
27:011933, then one more turns out to be this
27:03moment of a catalyst of a normative change.
27:06A radical normative change
27:08where the elites were.
27:09Professionals are the key players
27:13in this transformation of values,
27:16making the unimaginable normal.
27:17And that's of course the context
27:19where Venokur, Nitzan, Raphael goes,
27:22and so many others have helped
27:24us to understand that we end
27:27up with a society where is.
27:30Radical notion of difference.
27:33In terms of value,
27:34becomes standards and becomes part of
27:36practice in the course of the 30s, so both.
27:39All of society changes is its
27:42morality in many ways and becomes
27:44particularist in a very radical sense,
27:47and the professionals of course
27:49play a key role in that process.
27:53We also learned in that context, of course.
27:57That.
27:59We are neither looking at
28:02ideological warriors nor at obedient,
28:05thoughtless robots.
28:06We're looking at individuals who
28:08are trying to make sense of their
28:10new task that they've been given
28:12and imbuing it with meaning so that
28:14also killing becomes kind of a job.
28:17In that particular setting and that
28:18against that backdrop of these this morality,
28:21change of morality in many ways.
28:22So we're looking at individuals
28:25with agency initiative.
28:28Often guided by anticipatory
28:30obedience and their own interests,
28:32situated in the midst of bourgeois society,
28:34of middle class society,
28:36or this is not some fringe that's important,
28:39reflecting their decisions and their
28:41actions and claiming their share of power,
28:45of social power,
28:46of resources guided by particular interests
28:49and embracing the notions of inequality,
28:53violence, and suppression.
28:54And it is,
28:54of course,
28:55part of that moral change that I talked,
28:57which meant there was very often.
28:59Room for maneuver.
29:00There was a core consensus,
29:02and there was active support
29:03for many of these crimes.
29:04What does all of this mean for our
29:07project of trying to understand
29:08the medical perpetrators?
29:12We have since then over the last
29:14few decades seen more and more
29:16studies of trying to understand this,
29:17but there's been a certain tendency
29:20still to focus on the organizations,
29:22the structures, history of science,
29:25intellectual history.
29:26But the biographical focus
29:28on the values and motives,
29:31the driving factors of the perpetrator,
29:33still has been the acceptance,
29:35the the exception.
29:36I'm familiar with Barker fees on Cal
29:38brand to of course is a key player,
29:41but there are not so many.
29:42And it's actually only a few
29:44half a year ago that a book
29:47actually came out with a not so.
29:49I mean with a very clear title,
29:51medical perpetrators, right,
29:52where it tries to bring together
29:54that new research that has tried,
29:56that has developed over the last few years,
29:59addressing some of these points.
30:03In that context, of course.
30:05And then the next question,
30:08the next point that I want to
30:10take you to is the whole complex
30:13of what are medical crimes?
30:15And in that context, of course,
30:17we probably first need to agree
30:20on what is medical about them.
30:22And secondly,
30:23what exactly then is criminal about
30:26what the medical professionals did?
30:29And I'm very much also relying on
30:31folks who for me was the big discovery
30:33over the last few months and years,
30:35because he has contributed
30:37to that whole discussion.
30:38So I'm indebted to his his
30:41reflections on this.
30:42He makes an argument that was very
30:44helpful for me and I think that
30:46probably also something that we
30:47should take forward-looking in terms
30:49of dealing with that, he says.
30:50We need to differentiate.
30:52Between the activities of physicians
30:55in specific medical contexts,
30:57hospitals, research institutions,
30:59public health settings.
31:01Bruces the activities of physicians
31:05in non medical contexts where they
31:08are guided by aims and rationalities
31:10that are exclusively defined
31:12by non medical actors and where
31:15physicians easily are replaceable.
31:17And obviously he's arguing that
31:20if some doctor.
31:22Commits a crime in a non medical
31:24context where non medical actors
31:26define that's not a medical crime.
31:28Might still be horrible,
31:29but it's not a medical crime and
31:31I find that relatively convincing.
31:32So the question is of course.
31:35What about do you still remember?
31:36Recognize his face? Radovan Karadzic, right?
31:42Serbian. Mass murderer right ahead and
31:47and probably in charge of separate.
31:49It's A and thousands of of.
31:52Muslims that were murdered in Yugoslavia.
31:54What was Yugoslavia in the 90s was the schist
31:58right and had worked as a psychiatrist.
31:59But that does not make him
32:01a medical killer, right?
32:03Because he ends up going into politics
32:05and when he does commits his crimes,
32:07he's not doing it as a doctor.
32:09And you could have the same discussion
32:12that's probably at least somebody
32:13that that David Muir will recognize
32:15Alfred Ebel up here in the corner.
32:17Who is the first head first
32:20director of the T4 killing side,
32:22the so-called euthanasia
32:23murder side of Brandenburg?
32:25He's a doctor but and then ends up
32:29being the commandant of Treblinka.
32:31One other.
32:33Horrendous murder sites in
32:35context of action Reinhard,
32:37where I think around 900,000
32:40mainly Polish Jews were murdered.
32:42And the question also in his case is
32:44when you take the criteria of deciding
32:47not to define cartridge as a medical,
32:49committing medical crimes also
32:52ever becomes more complicated.
32:54Arguably,
32:54what he does at Brandenburg
32:57is a medical crime.
32:59What he does at Treblinka,
33:00perhaps not anymore.
33:01And just him being a doctor there,
33:04at least creates a a Gray zone.
33:06You could argue that's important,
33:07but what I would argue is it's
33:09important that we reflect on these
33:10categories and why we use them.
33:11Because eventually, of course,
33:13we also want to think about.
33:14The medical profession and the
33:16professionals are how we use
33:17these categories in that setting.
33:21By the way,
33:21what Ralph and others of course
33:23also have emphasized,
33:24what completely is useless in this
33:25context is the category of party membership,
33:28right?
33:28I mean, that has been a tendency
33:30to try to define perpetrators,
33:32but being a member of the Nazi Party
33:35is not a helpful category at all.
33:38In both directions, of course.
33:41There was this whole tendency to say,
33:42well, I was forced to become a member
33:44of the party and I didn't want to,
33:46and that's of course nonsense.
33:47So this,
33:48that whole apologetic apologetics
33:51is not particularly helpful.
33:53But it's also not incriminating per se,
33:55right?
33:55We need to look at what they did with that,
33:58of course, in that context.
33:59And what makes makes things really
34:01complicated is of course that we also have.
34:04Cases where people who are persecuted
34:08in Nazi Germany end up sharing
34:10the ideas with the perpetrators.
34:13So the example that he brings in,
34:16of course, in this context is Franz Kalman.
34:18I don't know if you are my love,
34:18you are familiar with that name,
34:20but Kalman is somebody who I believe as a
34:24so-called half Jew gets into or a I think,
34:27well,
34:27he's a converted Jew actually.
34:30In other words,
34:31in his self division,
34:31not Jewish,
34:32but of course for 90 Germany he's
34:34been seen as a Jew and that is
34:35also why he eventually emigrates.
34:37And he even in 193637 he's
34:38banned from giving his
34:40lectures that he wanted to give at a
34:42number of medical conferences in Germany.
34:45Because he's seen as Jewish.
34:46But the irony is that the
34:48lectures he wants to give,
34:49and that partially were held by others,
34:51was very much pushing eugenics.
34:54And he even wandered laws that were
34:57more radical than the laws that look,
35:00quote, UN quote, legalized,
35:01forced for sterilization, right.
35:03So you have these categories,
35:04of course, where people actually
35:06can become in some ways part of the
35:08perpetrator and part of the victim
35:10side at the same time that doesn't
35:12exclude each other for that matter.
35:16Where goes very far, but I think also
35:18is an important impulse is of course,
35:22what do we do with? This dark icon of.
35:27Perhaps even the Holocaust.
35:29And that's, of course,
35:30the doctor on the ramp.
35:31And royalty would even argue it's a Gray
35:35zone whether we see that as a medical crime.
35:39When we have mingala or others standing
35:42there and being part of the selection
35:44and his argument is that we know
35:47that the vast majority of the people
35:49that had that function were none,
35:51were not were doctors.
35:52A lot of other officers also did their job,
35:54so obviously it was not a
35:57qualification for that function.
35:58A lot of the selection that happened
36:00in other parts of the camps,
36:01particularly outside of Auschwitz,
36:03also was done by.
36:05Just that we're not doctors, right?
36:07But on the other hand,
36:08of course he does concede that we have
36:10a very specific situation in Auschwitz,
36:13particularly 194344 with Oswald Pool
36:15pushing for a lower mortality and
36:18trying to make sure that there's
36:20still certain productivity and says
36:22only doctors can do the selection.
36:24So there is a Gray zone here,
36:25but I don't want to create an awareness
36:28that even sometimes icons need to
36:30be questioned and reflected on how
36:32we understand the doctors there.
36:34And he actually.
36:35The capability critical of these
36:37sometimes a little bit too fast,
36:39too dramatic and bombastic declarations
36:41of the Holocaust as a medicalized
36:43genocide that we find in some very
36:46high profile articles by scholars
36:47also that we need to rethink these
36:50categories against that backdrop.
36:52What we can of course can do is
36:56we can see medical crimes in seven
36:58different contexts of action.
37:00Many of them are very familiar.
37:01So I don't for you,
37:02I'm sure I'm going to walk you
37:03through all the details.
37:04What for me was very helpful was
37:06to get an awareness of where we
37:09can see medical crimes,
37:11identify medical crimes.
37:13Going beyond the ones that we all know,
37:17probably I'm just projecting from me,
37:19I guess here.
37:20And that's of course forced sterilization
37:22and other so-called eugenic policies,
37:24the murder of patients and of course,
37:27inhumane experiments.
37:28And he, of course,
37:30also draws the attention to three,
37:33four other areas.
37:34One is of course,
37:34to what degree were doctors involved
37:37in excluding people in medical
37:39institutions already in 33 because
37:40they were Jewish or politically?
37:43Um, problematic.
37:44Quote UN quote, right?
37:45So that could categorize as a medical
37:48crime because you operate as a doctor
37:50in a medical institution at the time.
37:52Um,
37:53there are doctors who decide to use.
37:58Victims of Nazi persecution
38:00for training purposes,
38:02something that I also wasn't
38:03that familiar with.
38:04But there are cases where a pregnant
38:07woman who were prisoners were then
38:11used in in medical training contexts
38:13to to teach students and of course
38:16the whole question of how to use
38:19bodies of victims of Nazi persecution
38:22and for anatomical purposes.
38:24Then there's a whole question
38:25about forced labor in civilian
38:27medical institutions.
38:28And then of course you know the the
38:31activity of of doctors in camp hospitals.
38:34And what Walker argues in that context
38:37is we even need to think about.
38:40What are the legal and
38:43ethical standards at the time?
38:45So looking at not only
38:47from our perspective now,
38:48but what are the laws in the 30s about this?
38:51What is the ethical standards?
38:53And include that not as the only
38:56criterion but just as one factor.
38:58And that's what leads him to say,
39:00particularly with forced sterilization,
39:02we do need to be aware of that this
39:05is not a Nazi crime per se, right?
39:07There has been increasingly
39:09become a part of of.
39:10A discussion also now how much?
39:12I think almost half of the states of the
39:15US at that time had forced sterilization.
39:18Denmark had forced sterilization, right?
39:20So there are quite a few other countries
39:22of course, that were practicing it.
39:25And if you take a positivist
39:28perspective on law,
39:30it was not even illegal, right?
39:31Because of course it was a law that
39:33the German government had decided.
39:35Now you can choose to say what the German
39:38Government in the summer or the fall
39:40of 1933 decides when there is no function.
39:42Democratic Parliament is not legal anymore,
39:44but that's where you end up,
39:45right?
39:45That's of course the the decision
39:47that you need to take and finally
39:50to wrap up that whole question
39:51about war medical crimes.
39:55There's also a strong point to be made that.
40:01Doctors who end up referencing that
40:03they only were guided by medical
40:05criteria or scientific criteria
40:07in terms of their experimentation
40:10also are to be questioned because
40:13very often that's inaccurate and
40:15the specific historical context,
40:16the example that often comes
40:17up as you use Hawthorn,
40:19who on the one hand did want
40:20to do real research,
40:22but of course what he does is to go
40:24to the people who run Brandenburg
40:26Garden or the killing side in
40:29Brandenburg itself and already.
40:31Talk with the leaders of
40:32the chief organizations,
40:33making sure that the right
40:34patients are murdered so that
40:36they can get their brains right.
40:37So yes, he does real brain research,
40:39but how does he get to how does he
40:42get these brains and how does he get
40:43exactly those brains that he wants?
40:45So there's a reference to science,
40:46of course is not only for
40:49that setting problematic,
40:50but of course it's also setting
40:52for implications because it's
40:54a reminder of how science of
40:55course also today is not free of
40:58political and value decisions.
40:59That of course also plays into that.
41:01Kind of context.
41:03So the third part that I want to
41:05discuss with you today is the whole
41:07issue about what we then have learned
41:10in terms of understanding and getting a
41:13better idea of the medical professionals.
41:17And the six points that I'm
41:19going to share with you here.
41:21You can glance over for a moment.
41:23Um.
41:24One important aspect,
41:25for me at least going a little bit deeper
41:29into this was to understand better.
41:32How we get to a situation where 45 some
41:35people will give you higher percentages.
41:37Somewhere around half of the German doctors
41:40end up becoming members of the Nazi Party.
41:43And it's relatively safe to argue to
41:46assume that in many cases there was a very
41:51clear opportunistic career motivation here.
41:54People realized,
41:54and we can see that in the sources also.
41:57They were hoping for the new
42:00professional opportunities that were
42:02coming up in these new massively
42:05subsidized areas of eugenics.
42:07Right hereditary health courts were set up.
42:10They always had three at their helm,
42:13right and two of them.
42:14Following correctly were doctors
42:16the whole genetic survey operation
42:19of the so-called epilogue Shea.
42:22Fasson right ahead of hereditary biological
42:24inventory and of course research in eugenics.
42:27So it was clear there would be new
42:31attractive potentials for jobs,
42:32which I of course have a much better
42:35chance getting when I am a party member.
42:38Another factor where you can see
42:40that coming in is that there is a
42:43very skewed balance of how many
42:45professors end up being in the
42:46party and how many privato sentence.
42:48So people who already had the ability
42:51to be professors but who hadn't
42:53been hired yet on a tenure position.
42:55So it's very obvious that those
42:57who are in the PD status,
43:00who of course still need to go that
43:03academic or that career jumped or
43:05much more into the astic entering.
43:08But the important thing is of course
43:10not only that it's not automatic and
43:13we still have half don't something
43:16else linear often emphasizes.
43:18So it's of course still a choice.
43:20And we also have an I found
43:22that particularly important.
43:23We also had a lot of examples where
43:25people do become members of the Nazi
43:28Party but turn out to be surprisingly
43:30uncooperative in terms of working
43:33with the working with the regime.
43:35So it's not so clear cut.
43:37See where I'm going with this.
43:38So it's not that either you are a
43:40gung ho and everything or you're not.
43:41It's more complicated.
43:42And the example here is the research
43:45that we have on the wonderful
43:47small Franconian place of Shabba.
43:48Where there's been kind of a
43:50study on these years of 1934 to
43:531939 where we can see again.
43:57Somewhere around 60% of the doctors
43:59are members of the Nazi Party,
44:01but 2/3 are the doctors and we
44:03of course don't know whether they
44:05were whether they were party
44:07members or not for these numbers.
44:10Never reported anybody in the
44:12context of eugenic survey.
44:15You see where this is going?
44:16So on the one hand.
44:20Vast majority wants to be party members.
44:22On the other hand 2/3 do not
44:26play with the Nazi requirements.
44:29And again, it's a question of interpretation.
44:32So much in history,
44:32of course, why this happens,
44:34but the most plausible argumentation that
44:36we also have some indications of in the
44:38sources in terms of the letters and private.
44:40Kind of ego documents and other places
44:42is these doctors were worried that
44:45patients would lose their trust in them.
44:49If I report somebody, who?
44:54Might have an illness that
44:56was defined as hereditary,
44:57ill and should be sterilized.
44:59There will be a rumor about it
45:00and other patients will say,
45:01I don't want to go to that doctor.
45:02He ends up getting me or my daughter
45:04or somebody else sterilized, right?
45:05So there are other factors of course,
45:07that play into that context.
45:11What else have we learned?
45:12We have increasingly seen how even in the
45:15context of forced sterilization money,
45:18the motivation of having an
45:19extra revenue played a role.
45:20It's not all about ideology.
45:22Case, for example,
45:23is Robert from Buna a doctor in India,
45:26and we have many other cases where we
45:29have a Doctor Who was clear he is a.
45:31Doctor and private practice will
45:33then goes to one of these hospitals
45:35in entrepreneur and has this extra
45:37income of a couple of 1000 rice
45:39micro months doing sterilizations,
45:41but where there's no obvious
45:44indication of ideological or
45:46institutional reasons to do it.
45:48We have case studies on Robert
45:50Wilmans who is the head of one of
45:53the departments at the border,
45:54shengshi and starting in Beetle,
45:57which was a very important kind of
46:00Protestant church driven institution.
46:03Where the transition?
46:052.
46:08Or sterilization for eugenic reasons
46:09and not for medical reasons.
46:11Of course we can see the change happen.
46:14Pushed by him before the
46:17law is promulgated, right?
46:19So he already kind of preemptively
46:20goes in that direction.
46:22He self defines as a strong,
46:25with a strong Protestant Christian identity,
46:28but he is the one who makes the
46:29whole institution a catalyst.
46:30We're accelerating that trend
46:31that it is talked about and the
46:34conviction as far as we can tell.
46:35Is, on the one hand that he believes in it.
46:39He seems really to believe that eugenic
46:42for sterilization is the right thing to do.
46:45And there's also good reason to
46:47assume that it's very much about
46:49his position at the hospital.
46:50He's not happy with the number
46:52of operations he does.
46:53When he has more operations
46:56on his whatever CV,
46:57then he has a different standing
46:59in the hospital, right?
46:59So we can see how very
47:01different motives of course,
47:02also come into these different scenarios.
47:04And supported Gulen who is a
47:08good example here as well.
47:09Is one of the many people who is the
47:12head of one of these mental institutions
47:15where people also end up being sterilized?
47:19Who?
47:21Is seeing with a lot of
47:23distrust by Nazi authorities.
47:25He there's a lot of jobs he doesn't get.
47:27He's seen as a almost kind of an anti Nazi.
47:29And nevertheless,
47:30he's lucky to get this kind
47:33of job as a director.
47:34But there are many other things where
47:37it's clear that there is this uneasiness
47:39with him from the authorities side.
47:42And he also clearly is on
47:43the reform side of things.
47:45He really wants to make sure we should
47:47be a healing institution again.
47:49We shouldn't have all these mental
47:51patients that just stay here forever,
47:52right?
47:53We need to find ways to get them to
47:54help them and then to release them again.
47:56But he realizes that he can only
47:59achieve his reform goals of kind of
48:02making his institution more modern
48:05when he pushes for force sterilization.
48:07Because when you have sterilized
48:09the patient that becomes the
48:11requirement for letting that
48:12person out in into society again.
48:15So he goes for it,
48:17right?
48:17So we can see these kind of complex
48:20situations of motives as well.
48:22We also have learned more and
48:24more about doctors that are
48:26really difficult to categorize.
48:27And I'm reminded of an exhibition that
48:29David Goldman, the founder of Aspen,
48:31I went to a few years ago about
48:33Fed and don't know if you recall,
48:36who of course is a.
48:39A towering figure of of surgery
48:42and of German medicine and
48:45the really important player.
48:47The first things that I knew
48:48about him was that there's a
48:50reason why Max Lieberman paints
48:51him because they were friends.
48:53Max Liebermann, German Jewish painter,
48:56impressionistic painter.
48:57He's one of the only non Jews
48:58who actually comes to Miami's.
49:01Burial in 1935?
49:03I believe so.
49:05Xampp is a good example of where we on
49:09the one hand know about how he and
49:12private contexts condemns Nazism,
49:14helps people who are persecuted at
49:17the period, but on the other hand,
49:19from day one already in 1933.
49:24Celebrates the Nazi takeover of power,
49:26celebrates it as a national
49:27revolution that was necessary,
49:28which of course also is relatively touristic
49:31of a certain part of German intellectuals,
49:34German elites at the time,
49:36and he is in the middle of that
49:38and also supports the regime.
49:40And the most important,
49:41probably the most damning evidence is,
49:44of course, that somebody might be
49:45something that we will touch on later.
49:47People like, or particularly
49:50salable actually also is present.
49:53When?
49:55The institutions,
49:56both from the medical world
49:59and the their market,
50:01and those who were involved in
50:03experimentation on prisoners get together,
50:06for example,
50:07for sulfonamide experimentation and all these
50:12kind of aviation experiments and so on.
50:15And people like Xenopol are there in
50:174344 with no word of criticism and
50:20even instead of criticizing these.
50:23Extremely inhuman and brutal experiments.
50:26They even give some productive advice
50:28how to improve the methods, right?
50:30So he's in the middle of it and
50:32that's of course where where is he,
50:34right?
50:34How could we categorize him in terms
50:37of anti Nazi but at the same time
50:39part of the crimes of course anyways.
50:42We have other examples also for the
50:46euthanasia murders and examples,
50:50for example from Erlangen,
50:52the mental hospital there,
50:55where we more and more understand
50:56how the heads of those hospitals
50:58where patients were killed.
51:00And when I used the word youthanasia,
51:01I hope that you can imagine the
51:03quotation marks as Nazi terminology,
51:05of course.
51:06We mourn,
51:07want understand how even people
51:10who were involved in that very
51:13often did not have a linear and
51:17unequivocally Nazi careers pushed
51:19for the murder and for sending their
51:23patients in spite of the fact that
51:25they had room for maneuver, right?
51:26We had more and more understanding of how
51:28many of the heads of these institutions,
51:30when they said,
51:31no,
51:31I didn't want to send their patients,
51:33were not punished.
51:34And that's of course what happened in 2015.
51:36Um also wrote an important book about and
51:40eventually one of the last examples that
51:42I want to give here is perhaps to situate.
51:45I don't exactly know where David Marvel
51:48is going to take us with mingala,
51:50but we of course know so much
51:54more now about the camp doctors,
51:56the s s doctors in the camps.
51:58And that is mainly,
51:59as far as I know,
52:00mainly due to Philip Rowe,
52:02where she wrote a kind of collective
52:06biography he was able to identify.
52:09All, as far as we know,
52:10all the doctors who were as s s men
52:16either standard asked or laggards, right?
52:20Either the head of the whole
52:22complex or the the subordinate Dr.
52:25at the place,
52:26and he ends up with 177 and
52:28has looked at these 177,
52:30tried to dig out everything
52:31he could find out
52:31about them. And that of course
52:34helps to contextualize people
52:35like Mangala in that context.
52:38And lo and behold, um,
52:40more than 50% of these doctors were
52:42also of the war youth generation.
52:44Some of them were even younger.
52:47They very often were strong supporters
52:51of eugenics, of anti-Semitism,
52:54of folkish ideology already in the 1920s.
52:57Interesting enough.
53:00In contrast to a lot of other cases
53:02where we see a lot of continuity,
53:04that doctors end up having doctors as sons,
53:07these guys were mainly past sons of pastors.
53:12So kind of for whatever reason,
53:13I'm not sure how to explain that,
53:15but that seems to be an interesting factor.
53:19They clearly believed in the
53:21US as a racial elite, right?
53:22So there is this idea of,
53:24of arrogance of the institution
53:25that we of course can see there.
53:27There's a strong focus on the
53:29ideological training that played a role.
53:31But we also need to balance
53:33this and have a reality check.
53:35There were often not enough applicants
53:37to get into these positions,
53:39and their medical training that these
53:41doctors got was more or less mediocre,
53:44so you should not kind of exaggerate
53:47this kind of elite context too much.
53:50Their situation, the situation of
53:52the doctors at the camps S doctors,
53:54was one that, of course,
53:55was defined by the whole medical
53:58system of the US.
53:59By the system of the concentration camps
54:01and by the way that the war developed,
54:03right so many ways,
54:04that's the triads,
54:05the triangle,
54:06that of course decides on what they can
54:08do and what their possibilities are.
54:12And what we need to keep in mind is
54:14that the people that were doctors at
54:16the camp were in a constant rotation.
54:19So they would from time to time be
54:20sent out and ended up with the troops.
54:22And I think that metal is an example
54:23of that as far as I remember,
54:24even where they end up with roughness
54:26units at the front or in the rear and
54:28then come back to the camp, right.
54:30So there is a movement.
54:31Then we can also clearly see how that
54:32adds to the brutalization, so to speak,
54:34in that process to some degree.
54:35This is of course a difficult
54:38interpretation as well along those lines.
54:41The important thing,
54:42of course here is that we should not
54:45think of the concentration camps as
54:47near detention sites even before 1939.
54:49They are clearly spaces of social
54:53racist transformation, right?
54:55There are spaces, the institutions,
54:57that are about to heal the national body,
55:00the Fox Carper, from its harmful elements.
55:03And the doctors were of course predestined,
55:04predestined for a key role.
55:06In that context,
55:07it's important that these doctors
55:09at the camps were acting relatively
55:12independent of the Commandant.
55:14Because their superiors were the
55:17head of the USS medical system,
55:20but not necessarily the commandant at
55:22the specific camp that they were in.
55:24That gave them some.
55:25Space to breathe and to take
55:27their own decisions, of course,
55:29within that context.
55:31There's a clear escalation to be seen,
55:34of course, after 1939.
55:36We have evidence that when Himmler comes,
55:39I'm trying to remember what
55:40camp he goes to about this.
55:41I think it's DAU.
55:44And he sees the consequences
55:45of the overcrowding and the
55:47chaos that has developed
55:48over the last first six,
55:501218 months after the war has started.
55:52And so in some places the
55:54number of prisoners. right?
55:56Within relatively short times,
55:58even somebody like Himmler was shocked.
56:00And that's of course where the initiative
56:01to 14 F 13 ends up being taken, right?
56:04That specific program like expands the
56:08so-called euthanasia killings into the camps,
56:11which of course for a long time
56:13means that now, to create more
56:15order and more space at the camps,
56:19prisoners would be taken from the camps
56:21and murdered and the killing sites off T4,
56:24and eventually they'll do it themselves.
56:26But that's of course a window that that
56:28opens up there in the course of 1942,
56:30particularly in that context.
56:32And almost all the physicians go all the
56:35way from clear neglect of their patients.
56:38I mean we barely see S doctors
56:41treating patients of course.
56:42To the mass dying to genocide,
56:44right.
56:45That's of course this kind of
56:46process that they go through and
56:48one of the most interesting cases
56:50that we know much more about now.
56:52Is it with this right who is of
56:55course in charge at Auschwitz?
56:58**** now and at least from September 1942?
57:03And the the challenge here is that we
57:05have one of his assistant prisoners,
57:08prisoner assistants Hermann
57:09Langbein by him who?
57:14Paints a very positive picture of him,
57:16right how he fights corruption,
57:18fights mortality,
57:19improves the prisoner situation.
57:21He's the one who also makes sure that
57:23the ramp selection becomes a medical job.
57:26But on the other hand, what we should
57:27not lose sight of is of course,
57:29that vets very much believes in the
57:32necessity of his task of mass murder,
57:35but just that he wants it to be
57:38done in a rational and decent way.
57:41And this notion of decency that
57:43even vets and others come back,
57:45of course diagonally refers to to the
57:47speech that we all know of of Himmler,
57:49the infamous speech in October 1943,
57:51where Himmler also speaks about committing
57:55the these killings in a decent.
57:57Manner, of course, at the same time.
58:01We have examples of doctors finding
58:03the their first weeks at the
58:06camp being very difficult.
58:07But I think the important thing is here
58:09not to understand this difficulties.
58:11We suddenly being on the ramp and having
58:13to take these decisions as necessary,
58:16having more inhibitions.
58:18I think that's big the often the leap
58:20that we take and we have good examples.
58:21Again, I don't want to go too far
58:24into David's topic here,
58:26but we have a case where mingle
58:27is sent off to calm down.
58:29I think hands still much who's a young guy,
58:3227 and who has a hard time being on the ramp.
58:35And the way that mango of course does it
58:37is that he says this is a little bit like.
58:38Matriarch, right.
58:40This is comparable.
58:42What we know is at least that almost
58:44all of the doctors get used to it,
58:46get used to it, do the job,
58:48and very often also end up using it for
58:50their research and their dissertation.
58:53So we see a combination in terms of
58:56motivations between racist motivations,
58:58careerism and self enrichment that of
59:01course very often plays interviews.
59:03What I wasn't so aware of,
59:05but I found important as well,
59:07is of course to see what Himmler
59:09actually thought about his actors.
59:11He had did not have high.
59:14A high opinion about them and mangler
59:16is more the exception that he is
59:19somebody who's actually able to build
59:21up his own research at Auschwitz.
59:23A lot of the research that otherwise
59:26happens in camp context is from external
59:28doctors that come in and then are
59:31given certain opportunities to to do there.
59:33But the bottom line is the camp
59:37doctors were neither just following
59:39orders nor they were thought leaders
59:41of their own social engineering.
59:43They were probably much more
59:44to be described as pragmatic,
59:45utilitarian practitioners of mass murder.
59:48Firmly rooted in the racist worldview
59:50and value system of uncompromising
59:53and resolute brutality.
59:57The last count point,
59:58I'm just looking at the time here.
60:00I'll just going to touch on very briefly.
01:00:02We also have one more research
01:00:03of course about the experiments.
01:00:05In one case that also stands out for
01:00:07me in that context is close, close.
01:00:09Schilling who does a lot of malaria
01:00:12experimenting and data was actually
01:00:15longer standing research project
01:00:17that goes all the way from 42 to 45.
01:00:20And his point is of course
01:00:22particularly interesting because
01:00:23unlike for example Mangala,
01:00:25he's somebody who's already.
01:00:26At the end of his career,
01:00:27I think he's in the late 60s,
01:00:28early 70s when he even starts with this.
01:00:31So he's had a career at the Holbrook
01:00:33Institute and other places,
01:00:35and he's very much also contributing to
01:00:37the normalization of having a research
01:00:40address at a concentration camp.
01:00:41But we also have learned more
01:00:42and more about is, of course,
01:00:44how these are networks right?
01:00:45And he has context to doctors all
01:00:48over and also to other institutions
01:00:50in that context.
01:00:51Who see this as normality and also strong
01:00:54sense of his own ethical integrity,
01:00:57right?
01:00:58He's doing humanity a service.
01:01:00It will cost some lives,
01:01:02but in the end the world will
01:01:05thank him because he will have
01:01:08solved the problem of malaria.
01:01:10Now.
01:01:12I'll whitling and Marian ********
01:01:14have done important work on him.
01:01:16And what I think is so crucial about
01:01:18that research is also that they really
01:01:20have driven home how to really fully
01:01:22understand what this kind of brutal,
01:01:25murderous experimenter is doing.
01:01:26Be very often also need the
01:01:28perspective of the victims,
01:01:30because we fully understand
01:01:32what Schilling is doing,
01:01:35just thanks to one of his assistants.
01:01:37We actually,
01:01:38Eugene asked,
01:01:38we actually know the details of that,
01:01:40and that's of course an important
01:01:41aspect in that whole realm.
01:01:44So I want to wrap up,
01:01:47but just kind of think about where
01:01:49that takes us to in terms of.
01:01:52Tentative conclusions or thinking
01:01:54of medical history, but also what
01:01:56we do with with this education,
01:01:58of course, I think one thing.
01:02:02That stands out from this whole
01:02:04process is that we see this
01:02:06strong desire of distance, right?
01:02:08If we can define those who committed the
01:02:11crimes as pathological or as fanatics,
01:02:13then it has nothing to do with me, right?
01:02:15So that of course has been one important
01:02:18thing that needs to be overcome.
01:02:20But at the same time,
01:02:21I think it's also important to
01:02:23acknowledge that this Nazi doctrine me
01:02:26approach also falls short unless we even
01:02:28also go into the specificity, right.
01:02:31We need the historical.
01:02:32Sophisticated,
01:02:32we cannot just make assumptions
01:02:34and guess and estimate.
01:02:35We need to understand what these
01:02:37doctors did and you could even
01:02:39include that we need a site specific
01:02:41exploration and that's of course what
01:02:43fast be that you've heard a lot about
01:02:45is trying to do right and faspe has
01:02:48over the last decade or so taking
01:02:50about 700 mainly graduate students
01:02:52to Europe and gone to the different
01:02:55places where doctors and lawyers and others.
01:02:58Are practicing what did practice their roles,
01:03:01acted in their roles and also to go
01:03:03to Auschwitz and to reflect on that.
01:03:05And I think it's safe to say that that's
01:03:07a very different setting to reflect
01:03:09on that complicity of people that in
01:03:11some ways were you and in other ways
01:03:13were different to try to understand that.
01:03:15So the big question,
01:03:16I'm sure that there are many
01:03:18of you in similar roles.
01:03:18I think I would how can we
01:03:20integrate that into the curriculum?
01:03:21How can we convince our schools integrated?
01:03:24How can we invite young future professionals?
01:03:29In the realm of medicine or law or business
01:03:30in other areas and one way of course is it.
01:03:33That's what we are trying to
01:03:34do to have these two week.
01:03:38Fellowships where we can mix
01:03:40and exploration of these sites.
01:03:42Uh, specific learning about the history,
01:03:44but then to think about the implications
01:03:46for the contemporary setting now.
01:03:50You probably also need a broader
01:03:52context for a lot of what we're doing.
01:03:54I briefly mentioned that,
01:03:56of course, as sterilization was
01:03:57not necessarily a German thing.
01:03:59I think that already opens up the question.
01:04:00We probably need much more of an
01:04:02understanding about how the different
01:04:04Nazi crimes connected, right?
01:04:05And how they engaged in each other.
01:04:07There was a book that came out last
01:04:08year about the relationship between
01:04:09US and Asia and the Holocaust.
01:04:11You would think,
01:04:12didn't we already know everything
01:04:13about that connection?
01:04:14But the point is actually that recent
01:04:17scholarship of the last 1-2 years really has.
01:04:21Driven at home that we should
01:04:22not think of it as the sequence
01:04:24first A then B but it's 2 murder
01:04:26programs that in complex ways are
01:04:28intertwined and relate to each other.
01:04:30And I think our understanding has is is
01:04:33growing as we speak about these connections.
01:04:36I think we also really for ourself,
01:04:38everybody that we tried to teach about this,
01:04:40we really need to address that
01:04:42massive temptation to project our
01:04:45thinking on historical figures.
01:04:47I don't know how often I've in a Facebook
01:04:49context had fellows who still want to say,
01:04:51well,
01:04:52but they had a really bad feeling
01:04:53what they were doing and they had to
01:04:55overcome their moral inhibitions and
01:04:56they didn't really want to do it,
01:04:57but they ended up being forced to whatever,
01:04:59ohh, look, they committed suicide.
01:05:02So that's probably because they
01:05:03felt bad about it, right?
01:05:04We really have to radically
01:05:05turn that around and say.
01:05:07What if they actually want to do it?
01:05:09And if if they want to do it,
01:05:11what are the explanatory factors for that?
01:05:14How do we get into that basically?
01:05:17Eventually,
01:05:17and that should be my last sentence before
01:05:21Mark pulls me off the stage here is.
01:05:25There are of course there is
01:05:27a way to see these.
01:05:29Doctors.
01:05:30As we look into them, as in a mirror,
01:05:34as fanatic outsiders.
01:05:36There is a second way of looking at
01:05:39them as apolitical normal physicians
01:05:42dedicated to a medical ethos but
01:05:45abused by external political powers or
01:05:48enticed by omnipresent group dynamics.
01:05:50Or, and that's what royalty argues.
01:05:52And he convinced me he said no,
01:05:54we might also need to think about the
01:05:57latently destructive mentalities and
01:05:59value hierarchies of medicine as a field,
01:06:02medicine as a profession,
01:06:04which became manifest under the
01:06:06specific ramifications of Nazism,
01:06:08and give up this idea that there are
01:06:11autonomous fears of politics here,
01:06:14society and medicine somewhere else.
01:06:16Thank you.
01:06:18Thank you so much, Torsten.
01:06:19So I'm going to invite the folks who
01:06:22are with us on the webinar to submit
01:06:24questions if you like in the Q&amp;A portion
01:06:27and I'll take a look at those and I'll,
01:06:29I'll read some of those.
01:06:29But in the meantime,
01:06:30I want to offer folks in the audience
01:06:32a chance if you would raise your hand.
01:06:33We've got people on each
01:06:35side with microphones.
01:06:35If you have a question for Torsten,
01:06:39I'll take the the privilege
01:06:41of asking the first one.
01:06:44The first question I had is too broad,
01:06:45so I'll save that as the second one.
01:06:47But the first one was simply you talked
01:06:49about the eugenics and how eugenics
01:06:50took hold in Germany and and you,
01:06:52you mentioned briefly about forced
01:06:54sterilization in other countries,
01:06:55Denmark and of course the
01:06:56United States as well, right?
01:06:58And and there's the the well
01:07:00known German propaganda poster.
01:07:02We do not stand alone with all
01:07:04the flags of the various countries
01:07:06that were in the 1930s practicing
01:07:08forced sterilization eugenics
01:07:11and there were many people in.
01:07:14Including people in right here
01:07:15in New Haven and academics were
01:07:17really embraced eugenics, right.
01:07:18But it took a very different turn
01:07:20in Germany and and I don't know
01:07:23if that's took a different turn
01:07:25just within the medical profession
01:07:26or he certainly did politically.
01:07:28But I wonder if in the medical
01:07:29professional as well,
01:07:30can you talk a little bit of that
01:07:33you mentioned about the eugenics
01:07:34and the euthanasia where when that
01:07:37transition from forced sterilization
01:07:39to the euthanasia that took a very
01:07:42different term in Germany and
01:07:43among the German professionals.
01:07:44Compared to the United States?
01:07:46You've got your lapels here.
01:07:47Good.
01:07:49The microphone just continue,
01:07:50right again, I could just
01:07:52continue with you're good.
01:07:53Thank you, mark.
01:07:56I think it is important, of course,
01:07:57to say both things, right,
01:07:59that we have cases of eugenic
01:08:01policies in other countries and
01:08:03settings and then we have it in Germany,
01:08:06but it of course goes into a
01:08:08very different dimension and
01:08:09I think that what we need to
01:08:11understand is of course that.
01:08:15The project of a racial,
01:08:16biological, social engineering
01:08:18was so much more comprehensive,
01:08:20this idea to mold society, it was so,
01:08:22so much more of a guiding line of the
01:08:25whole regime that we end up with,
01:08:26of course, having a lot of clinics in the.
01:08:30Mid late 30s where sterilization
01:08:32almost becomes a daily occurrence
01:08:35and not the exception exceptional
01:08:37things I think there is.
01:08:39We need to look at the the
01:08:41similarities and the differences
01:08:42from Scandinavian countries or the
01:08:44US and then of course Nazi Germany.
01:08:46And the other question is of
01:08:48course one where I as a historian
01:08:50just have to say even experts in
01:08:52medical history disagree on that.
01:08:53There are historians who see very
01:08:56clear causal connections when people
01:08:59start with force sterilization.
01:09:01They will eventually also end up with
01:09:03using Asia. That's what Hanshu did.
01:09:05And then there are other scholars
01:09:07who say that's too fast,
01:09:08you can have 4 sterilization and by
01:09:10the way we see it in other places,
01:09:12but you don't need to end up with it.
01:09:14And the the the the voice.
01:09:16And I remember Madonna just Madonna
01:09:17is saying it a few days ago when
01:09:19we did our program there and he's
01:09:21doing it regularly of course to say,
01:09:23well it was just a logical step right.
01:09:25If you want to prevent people who are
01:09:29burden on society from being born,
01:09:31then you might also go to the
01:09:33people who already are born to take
01:09:34them out of society that they're.
01:09:35There was no big step.
01:09:37So there are people who emphasize
01:09:40that connection.
01:09:40But as I said,
01:09:41there is also a way of saying in the
01:09:43end there are different policies,
01:09:45different lines.
01:09:46There's a big difference between
01:09:47what is open and public and
01:09:49supported and what is secret, right?
01:09:51I mean the murder of patients to
01:09:54some degree is of course kept
01:09:56much more secret in many ways.
01:09:58And the most important Lincoln,
01:09:59that's probably the only last thing
01:10:00that I can say about it is of course
01:10:02the murder of children in that context,
01:10:04right.
01:10:04We have the so-called children's.
01:10:06With amnesiac quote UN quote,
01:10:07that in many ways creates the closest
01:10:09link between the two and that was of
01:10:11course also the most important early
01:10:12phase of the murder of patients.
01:10:14Thank you. Yeah for the for the
01:10:16other pediatricians in the room
01:10:17reminder that it largely started
01:10:19with the children because the
01:10:20children were felt to be the future.
01:10:22The euthanasia program largely started.
01:10:24So I've got a couple of these up
01:10:25here which you can see as well,
01:10:27but I want to I should actually.
01:10:30I'm interested to hear from
01:10:32Doctor Finn's question.
01:10:33Thanks for this marvelous talk regarding
01:10:36the context that formed the perpetrator
01:10:38generation you said of the war,
01:10:39especially in the east against
01:10:41the Soviet Union.
01:10:42Given the atrocities we now see
01:10:43in the East and the Ukraine,
01:10:45can you say more about how German
01:10:47attitudes toward the Soviets
01:10:49and their demonization based
01:10:50on their own atrocities,
01:10:52for example the work of Tim Snyder
01:10:55here may have informed Nazi ideology
01:10:58and self justificatory arguments.
01:11:00For their own crimes.
01:11:03Well, Tim Snyder, of course says somewhere
01:11:05something along the lines of if you
01:11:07believe in the lie, it better be true.
01:11:09And I think this is what fans
01:11:11of course references to it.
01:11:12And that's one way of trying to see
01:11:14these connections, right, to say.
01:11:17If you believe. If you find yourself
01:11:21ending up murdering civilians,
01:11:22children, women and so on,
01:11:23and do you think that they are an enemy
01:11:26of the world and of civilization,
01:11:28you can live better with yourself when
01:11:30you try to convince yourself of it, right?
01:11:32And that's of course one approach
01:11:35somewhat competing with that is of
01:11:36course also that to some degree
01:11:38you really have a process in the
01:11:40course of the 30s that more and more
01:11:42right these people out of society,
01:11:44eventually also out of existence.
01:11:46So we're also the value settings.
01:11:49Change, I think,
01:11:50the most important part that we can see,
01:11:53and that's of course also the
01:11:54reference to the Ukraine.
01:11:55You could be worried about how in
01:11:57this case Russian soldiers who
01:11:59are involved with these crimes,
01:12:00what it does to their own kind of
01:12:03idea and the perception of their
01:12:05victims in that context.
01:12:06And this of course also what we see
01:12:08when German soldiers operate in the east,
01:12:11that it becomes a numbing process.
01:12:13In many ways.
01:12:14We have good examples of that where Browning,
01:12:17for example, has described.
01:12:19How there were some people who opted
01:12:21out and didn't want to be part of the murder,
01:12:23but increasingly also due to peer pressure.
01:12:25Others more more people got involved and
01:12:27got numbed and found their way to it.
01:12:29Thank you. Thanks very much.
01:12:30We're going to move on to the next speaker.
01:12:31Thank you very much, Doris.
01:12:33So you can take that lapel
01:12:34mic from me, though. Back.
01:12:43So, well, let me just. Yeah.
01:12:47Do we have time for one more?
01:12:53Can I ask a question or no?
01:12:56Looks like we're not done. Sorry.
01:12:59That's Wagner.
01:12:59Thank you so much for your talk.
01:13:02You know, you mentioned Youthanasia and.
01:13:05You know, in the Nazi context, obviously.
01:13:09Including that with with murder,
01:13:11you know that term is used a lot
01:13:13in a contemporary context and.
01:13:16You know, particularly in the more.
01:13:20Progressive.
01:13:22The settings progressive forms
01:13:25of contemporary euthanasia
01:13:27in in Europe and in Canada.
01:13:30I'm wondering if you hear any.
01:13:33And he echoes clearly there,
01:13:35the the in these, in these situations,
01:13:37there's no, there's no coercion, I think.
01:13:41I think at least,
01:13:42you know to whatever degree that's that's
01:13:45not that that's not allowed of course,
01:13:47but it's interesting hearing,
01:13:49you know,
01:13:50in some of those contexts you
01:13:52hear about cost analysis,
01:13:53health savings when it comes to.
01:13:58When it comes to individuals who
01:14:01you know who may not that one
01:14:04might not have to care for,
01:14:07I'm wondering if you hear any echoes.
01:14:12It's obvious it's still on.
01:14:18Does it work now?
01:14:19Yeah, you got it. Sorry.
01:14:21Thank you for the question.
01:14:23In terms of where we are time wise,
01:14:25this is going to be a 32nd answer to
01:14:27what deserves a much longer discussion.
01:14:30Obviously I'll just say that that's
01:14:32something that obviously also in the
01:14:34context of fast-paced fellowships
01:14:35and discussions is central.
01:14:36We are trying to see what these
01:14:39historical experiences means for
01:14:41these contemporary discussions.
01:14:42There are people who will emphasize
01:14:44that slippery slope right,
01:14:45emphasize how these dynamics
01:14:46that we see in nature Germany are
01:14:48relevant for the current context
01:14:49and other people who will.
01:14:51Reject that strongly and personally
01:14:53say and I'm not speaking for my
01:14:55medical faculty here that I think
01:14:57it's important to think about
01:14:59the fundamental question if that
01:15:00is a role of a doctor,
01:15:01right,
01:15:01is that is that the self definition
01:15:03of the professional role of a doctor
01:15:05should be enrolled in those cases
01:15:07and whatever on whatever level of
01:15:09involvement we're talking about and
01:15:11yes coming looking at historian added.
01:15:14I am concerned when my medical faculty
01:15:16colleagues from in the fastback
01:15:18context tell me how they're more.
01:15:21Studies,
01:15:21for example,
01:15:22from Belgium and the Netherlands,
01:15:23that indicate that the people who end up.
01:15:28Being used youthanize using the same
01:15:31terminology with some hesitation here
01:15:33of course increasingly are older.
01:15:37Lonely ladies in nursing homes very
01:15:41often also have very little financial.
01:15:45Resources.
01:15:45That makes me wonder what kind
01:15:47of denying is that going on?
01:15:48But that's that's a very contentious
01:15:50area and I cannot really do justice
01:15:51to your important question now,
01:15:53sorry.
01:15:54Thank you very much.