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"Exploring the Relationship between Sleep Apnea and Stroke" Jacqueline Geer (09/07/2022)

September 23, 2022

"Exploring the Relationship between Sleep Apnea and Stroke" Jacqueline Geer (09/07/2022)

 .
  • 00:00So now I will turn the session over to
  • 00:02Doctor Yaggi, who is our program director
  • 00:04for Yale Center for Sleep Medicine,
  • 00:06and he is going to introduce Doctor Dear.
  • 00:10Thank you, doctor Hilbert.
  • 00:11It is my distinct pleasure to
  • 00:14introduce Doctor Jackie Gear,
  • 00:17both as a new faculty member in our section,
  • 00:20having just finished her fellowship
  • 00:22training and as our inaugural
  • 00:25speaker this academic year and
  • 00:28our Yale Sleep Medicine Seminar.
  • 00:30Dr Gear completed her undergraduate
  • 00:32training at Washington University
  • 00:34in Saint Louis Medical School, NYU.
  • 00:36And then we were fortunate to
  • 00:38recruit her to Yale, where she.
  • 00:40Really has stayed for her clinical
  • 00:42training both as an intern,
  • 00:43a resident, a chief resident,
  • 00:46and fellowship training in pulmonary
  • 00:48critical care and Sleep Medicine.
  • 00:50And she has been incredibly productive
  • 00:53during her fellowship and has managed
  • 00:56to advance in a very short time.
  • 00:58Our understanding of sleep disordered
  • 01:01breathing and intracranial hemorrhage,
  • 01:04which is a very common type of stroke,
  • 01:07results in considerable mortality as well as.
  • 01:11Functional and and cognitive
  • 01:13impairment and morbidity.
  • 01:15She has already received numerous awards
  • 01:17and grants for her work in this domain,
  • 01:20including salary support from the NIH,
  • 01:22NINDS and stroke net during her
  • 01:24fellowship training a TS funding
  • 01:27through the Aspire Fellowship,
  • 01:29which is designed to promote
  • 01:31sleep research among pulmonary and
  • 01:33critical care medicine fellows.
  • 01:35She's also received an American Academy
  • 01:38of Sleep Medicine physician Scientist
  • 01:40Training award and most recently.
  • 01:42The Yale.
  • 01:44But why CI RCTs,
  • 01:47a clinical scholars KL2 award all
  • 01:50related to her work at this interface of
  • 01:53intracranial hemorrhage and and sleep apnea.
  • 01:56And today she's going to talk to us
  • 01:58more broadly about sleep apnea and
  • 01:59stroke and share with her some of the
  • 02:02work that she has has done in this domain.
  • 02:04Welcome,
  • 02:05Jackie.
  • 02:08Wow. Thank you so much car for
  • 02:10that warm introduction and thanks
  • 02:12for everyone for being here today.
  • 02:14It's an honor to give the first
  • 02:16sleep seminar of the semester.
  • 02:18I actually hadn't realized that
  • 02:19initially when I signed up for the state.
  • 02:21So lots of lots to live up to you
  • 02:24or or maybe not so much we'll save.
  • 02:27So I am extremely excited today to talk
  • 02:30to you all about sleep apnea and stroke.
  • 02:32It's a topic of great academic
  • 02:36interest to me and.
  • 02:38Before we get started, let me just.
  • 02:44There we go, and before we get started,
  • 02:46I'll just put the CME slide up again.
  • 02:48I think you all already saw it,
  • 02:50and doctor Hilbert went through the
  • 02:53the rules and I have no personal and
  • 02:56relevant financial disclosures to share.
  • 03:00So before I delve into
  • 03:02the outline for the talk,
  • 03:04I'll just take a minute to share with you
  • 03:06how I became interested in this domain.
  • 03:09And so as a first year pulmonary
  • 03:11and critical care fellow,
  • 03:13I had an early rotation in the Neuro
  • 03:17ICU where I had many stroke patients,
  • 03:19but also many ICA or interest
  • 03:22cerebral hemorrhage patients,
  • 03:23which is not something I had seen
  • 03:25much of as a medicine resident.
  • 03:27And then there was a a great component.
  • 03:30Happenstance as I think is
  • 03:32typical for people's research on
  • 03:35trajectory and career stories.
  • 03:37So it was,
  • 03:38first of all the the time of year in
  • 03:41that mid fall where you're supposed
  • 03:45to figure out what you're going
  • 03:47to do with your copious research
  • 03:48time in the second and third years.
  • 03:51And and so I was sort of pondering that
  • 03:54and happened to be working with them.
  • 03:57Kevin, Chef in the neuro ICU,
  • 03:59was my attending.
  • 04:00Time and Kevin is not only
  • 04:02a world class researcher,
  • 04:04but also an outstanding clinician and
  • 04:06has a a strong mentorship track record.
  • 04:10And so he and Clara had actually
  • 04:12just received R1 funding for a
  • 04:14sleep and a schematic stroke trial,
  • 04:17which I'll come back to later on in the talk.
  • 04:19But Kevin wondered if I might have
  • 04:21any interest in becoming a stroke
  • 04:23researcher and he took me out for
  • 04:25Arethusa ice cream to discuss it more.
  • 04:27And how could I say no?
  • 04:29And so I.
  • 04:30It really was interested in the topic,
  • 04:33which I learned a lot about the relationship
  • 04:36between sleep apnea and ischemic stroke,
  • 04:39but wondered if maybe the
  • 04:40same was true for ICH,
  • 04:41which I think was the big question.
  • 04:43I discovered that there was a
  • 04:45huge gap in the literature and
  • 04:46there's actually hardly any work
  • 04:48that had been done in that domain.
  • 04:51So I was intrigued.
  • 04:52I had a dream team for my from
  • 04:55my mentors and so we just started
  • 04:58working and have been continuing it.
  • 05:01Ever since.
  • 05:01And so.
  • 05:02Today I'm gonna talk to you about the
  • 05:06evidence that links sleep apnea and
  • 05:08strokes are sort of what do we know,
  • 05:12where are we?
  • 05:13Explore the proposed mechanisms.
  • 05:15So why, why is it,
  • 05:18you know,
  • 05:18why is sleep apnea a risk factor for stroke?
  • 05:21And then talk to you at the end
  • 05:22about the role of treatment.
  • 05:27So first we'll review the evidence.
  • 05:30And so I know I don't have to go into too
  • 05:33much detail for this particular audience,
  • 05:35but since it is the beginning of the
  • 05:36academic year and we have learners with
  • 05:38variable experience, I'll just take
  • 05:39a moment to talk about sleep apnea.
  • 05:41And so OSA is a common form of sleep
  • 05:44disordered breathing and it results
  • 05:46from intermittent upper airway collapse
  • 05:48leading to apneas and hypopneas,
  • 05:49which causes cycle of abnormal Physiology,
  • 05:53which includes hypoxia,
  • 05:55sympathetic activation,
  • 05:57hemodynamic disturbance and
  • 05:58disruption of sleep architecture.
  • 06:01Sleep apnea effects up to 40% of the
  • 06:04general population in the literature,
  • 06:06and probably more.
  • 06:09And it's an established an independent
  • 06:11risk factor for ischemic stroke,
  • 06:12which is present in up to 75%
  • 06:16of this patient population. Um.
  • 06:20So some background on stroke.
  • 06:22So it's the third leading cause of death
  • 06:25in the United States and the 2nd globally.
  • 06:27And there are almost a million strokes a
  • 06:30year in the United States and more than
  • 06:33150,000 stroke related deaths every year.
  • 06:36And so scheming stroke is the
  • 06:38most common stroke subtype,
  • 06:40followed by interest,
  • 06:41cerebral hemorrhage ICH.
  • 06:44Stroke is the leading cause
  • 06:46of long term disability,
  • 06:47and it costs an estimated $35
  • 06:50billion a year related to healthcare,
  • 06:54medication and missed days of productivity.
  • 06:59So if you were specifically
  • 07:01on spontaneous ICH.
  • 07:04Which accounts for a substantial
  • 07:05portion of all strokes,
  • 07:06but I think we are less familiar
  • 07:09with so a common research
  • 07:11definition of ICH is non traumatic,
  • 07:14abrupt onset of severe headache,
  • 07:16altered level of consciousness,
  • 07:18and or focal neurologic deficit,
  • 07:20with an associated focal collection
  • 07:22of blood within the brain frankoma
  • 07:24seen on neuroimaging or autopsy.
  • 07:26It accounts for up to 20% of all strokes
  • 07:30and has a 50% thirty day mortality,
  • 07:32and the the half who do survive tend to
  • 07:37have significant functional limitations.
  • 07:40And risk factors include hypertension,
  • 07:42age, diabetes, smoking,
  • 07:44anticoagulation,
  • 07:45particularly warfarin.
  • 07:46And so you'll you'll kind of note
  • 07:48that these are are fairly similar
  • 07:50risk factors to ischemic stroke.
  • 07:56So there have been a number of studies
  • 07:58providing epidemiologic evidence
  • 08:00and solidifying the connection
  • 08:01between sleep apnea and stroke,
  • 08:03and I I just have a sampling of
  • 08:05them listed here on this slide,
  • 08:07and I'll draw your attention
  • 08:09to the rightmost column,
  • 08:10which shows a consistently strong
  • 08:14association of high prevalence of OSA
  • 08:18in the respective stroke populations
  • 08:21relative to the general population.
  • 08:24And actually our own doctor Moseman
  • 08:26was one of the first to make
  • 08:28this observation and you can see
  • 08:30his case control study in 1995
  • 08:32at the top of the list there.
  • 08:34And there have been tons
  • 08:36of studies to follow.
  • 08:38And as you can sort of see from
  • 08:40the study population column,
  • 08:42most of them are looking at
  • 08:44ischemic stroke and Tia and a
  • 08:46few of them are indiscriminate.
  • 08:48And at the bottom,
  • 08:49you can see a reference for a study
  • 08:52that I conducted during fellowship where
  • 08:54we look specifically at interest rate,
  • 08:55real hemorrhage patients and and
  • 08:58matched controls and found that
  • 09:01there was also a very strong
  • 09:03prevalence of OSA in the cases,
  • 09:05which was significantly more
  • 09:07than in the controls.
  • 09:08And I'll tell you more about that later.
  • 09:11So the real question arising from many
  • 09:14of these early studies was whether sleep
  • 09:16apnea was a risk factor for stroke,
  • 09:19or if stroke caused sleep apnea.
  • 09:25So the directionality of association
  • 09:27was unclear based on the studies
  • 09:29I just mentioned, and ultimately
  • 09:32it appears to be bidirectional,
  • 09:34but strongly favoring sleep
  • 09:36apnea as a cause for stroke.
  • 09:39So some evidence to support the the
  • 09:42notion that stroke can cause sleep apnea
  • 09:46can be found in some earlier studies
  • 09:49looking at neuromuscular weakness
  • 09:51of the upper airway dilator muscles
  • 09:54which can lead to airway collapse.
  • 09:57And individuals who are
  • 10:00presumably predisposed.
  • 10:02Far more compelling is the notion that
  • 10:05sleep apnea is a risk factor for stroke.
  • 10:09And support for this comes from many studies,
  • 10:11and the reasoning is is broad,
  • 10:16including the fact that sleep apnea
  • 10:19is strongly associated with Tia,
  • 10:21in which no residual deficits remain.
  • 10:23And studies have shown that sleep apnea
  • 10:27patients with vulvar neuromuscular
  • 10:29weakness and continue to have sleep apnea
  • 10:32even after recovery from their deficits.
  • 10:35Additionally,
  • 10:35we see that the presence of OSA is generally
  • 10:40indiscriminate of location or stroke subtype.
  • 10:45Which suggests that stroke
  • 10:47is less likely the cause.
  • 10:48And then finally sleep apnea is
  • 10:51strongly associated with wake up stroke.
  • 10:54So we'll delve more into these
  • 10:56mechanisms shortly.
  • 10:57And there's also the issue of
  • 11:00confounding by hypertension,
  • 11:02diabetes, hyperlipidemia and obesity,
  • 11:05and which I will also try to
  • 11:08address in a bit.
  • 11:12So as many of you are aware,
  • 11:15our own Clara Yagis Fellowship project was
  • 11:18actually a groundbreaking contribution
  • 11:20to the domain of sleep apnea and stroke.
  • 11:24And was one of the first to
  • 11:27prospectively tackle this chicken and
  • 11:29egg on sort of causation question?
  • 11:32So in his observational cohort study,
  • 11:35consecutive patients
  • 11:36underwent polysomnography.
  • 11:38And subsequent strokes and deaths
  • 11:41were verified and recorded.
  • 11:44And the diagnosis of OSA,
  • 11:46I should mention,
  • 11:47was based on HIV 5 or greater,
  • 11:50and those without OSA served
  • 11:52as the comparators.
  • 11:53So what they found was that 68% of
  • 11:57enrolled patients had sleep apnea,
  • 11:59and that the presence of sleep apnea
  • 12:01was associated with significantly
  • 12:03higher likelihood of stroke or death,
  • 12:06even after they adjusted for confounders.
  • 12:10So this is depicted in these
  • 12:13two items from their paper here.
  • 12:15So on the left you can see
  • 12:17the Kaplan Meier curve.
  • 12:18And and they also found that the
  • 12:20severity of sleep apnea correlated
  • 12:22with the likelihood of stroke or death,
  • 12:25which you can see on the in
  • 12:27the table on the right.
  • 12:29You can see that the severity of
  • 12:32sleep apnea is stratified with an
  • 12:36increasing likelihood of association.
  • 12:41And so this table from the same study
  • 12:44shows the unadjusted and adjusted
  • 12:47hazard ratios for the risk of
  • 12:50stroke or death for all covariates.
  • 12:52And in the unadjusted analysis,
  • 12:54traditional cardiovascular
  • 12:55risk factors that we think of,
  • 12:58like age, diabetes,
  • 12:59and hypertension were all associated with
  • 13:01an increased risk of stroke or death.
  • 13:04But what I'd like to draw your attention
  • 13:06to is actually the bottom of the
  • 13:08table where sleep apnea is listed,
  • 13:09and the findings here show.
  • 13:11Basically a doubling of risk.
  • 13:16Of of stroke or death from any cause.
  • 13:20And so this remains significant
  • 13:21even after adjustment for all
  • 13:23of the relevant covariates,
  • 13:25which supports the hypothesis that sleep
  • 13:28apnea independently increases the risk
  • 13:31for stroke and all cause mortality.
  • 13:33So this study was the really
  • 13:36the first of its kind,
  • 13:38but many subsequent studies have
  • 13:40reproduced these results and and then
  • 13:43gone on to also explore Physiology
  • 13:45mechanisms and things like that,
  • 13:47which we'll discuss shortly.
  • 13:52Um, so under the mentorship of Clara,
  • 13:55Yagi, and Kevin Chef.
  • 13:56As I mentioned earlier,
  • 13:58I studied the relationship
  • 13:59between sleep apnea and NIH,
  • 14:01specifically during fellowship.
  • 14:04And I was really shocked to learn
  • 14:06that so little research has
  • 14:08been done in this sub domain.
  • 14:10I still am sort of surprised but
  • 14:12but it's it's a lucky break for me.
  • 14:15And so utilizing a large case
  • 14:18control data set that included
  • 14:203000 acute IH patients and 3000
  • 14:23matched controls called the
  • 14:25called Eric or the the Eric trial,
  • 14:28all of all of the patients in both arms
  • 14:32like 9098% of them had completed a Berlin.
  • 14:35Questionnaire at the time of
  • 14:37study enrollment,
  • 14:38so we performed a cross-sectional analysis.
  • 14:42And given that patients were enrolled within.
  • 14:46Hours of their acute IH event we
  • 14:49we made the leap that their ruling
  • 14:52questionnaire should be reflective
  • 14:54of their pre stroke status since not
  • 14:56much time had passed and what we
  • 14:59found is highlighted on this slide.
  • 15:01So basically you can see that obstructive
  • 15:04sleep apnea was significantly
  • 15:06more common in those with ICH as
  • 15:09compared to matched controls,
  • 15:11and that this finding held even
  • 15:12after we adjusted for significant
  • 15:14covariates and universal.
  • 15:16Founders.
  • 15:18We also did some special analysis because
  • 15:21as many of you are probably thinking,
  • 15:24we too were thinking that,
  • 15:26you know, hypertension is a really
  • 15:29important risk factor for IH,
  • 15:31potentially more so even than than
  • 15:34schimick stroke and it's also,
  • 15:37you know, associated with sleep apnea.
  • 15:39So we,
  • 15:40we perform some additional analysis
  • 15:43to kind of investigate this further.
  • 15:45So first of all.
  • 15:48There I should mention that there are
  • 15:51sort of two bucket locations for IH.
  • 15:53There's non low bar,
  • 15:55which is usually due to hypertension
  • 15:57and then there's low bar which is more
  • 15:59commonly due to cerebral amyloid angiopathy.
  • 16:02And so we stratified our results
  • 16:04by location and found that this
  • 16:07that that our initial finding
  • 16:10held regardless of location,
  • 16:11IE even for low bar strokes
  • 16:14which were presumably not due to
  • 16:17hypertension as the primary driver.
  • 16:19And we also did a hypertension focused
  • 16:21analysis which supported our findings.
  • 16:27So now that we've gone through
  • 16:29a review of sort of evidence
  • 16:31linking sleep apnea and stroke,
  • 16:33I'd like to spend the the next several
  • 16:36minutes talking about proposed mechanisms
  • 16:39for how sleep apnea causes stroke.
  • 16:44And I realize this is a very busy
  • 16:47slide with a lot of words and I'm
  • 16:50not going to go through them all.
  • 16:52So that's a sort of more
  • 16:55to to show you all this,
  • 16:57this web of interconnection
  • 17:00among risk factors and outcomes.
  • 17:04And I will distill it down in the
  • 17:08end to to six mechanisms that I'd
  • 17:11like to discuss today, but I.
  • 17:14I just want to sort of highlight
  • 17:16that the physiologic sick quality
  • 17:18of of obstructive sleep apnea can
  • 17:21lead to these chronic downstream
  • 17:24mechanisms of atherosclerosis,
  • 17:26including inflammation,
  • 17:28hypertension,
  • 17:29impaired glucose metabolism
  • 17:32and snoring related vibration.
  • 17:35And then there are additional
  • 17:37physiologic stresses related to sleep
  • 17:40apnea which can also predispose
  • 17:42to stroke and sort of potentiate.
  • 17:44A lot of these other mechanisms,
  • 17:46and these include.
  • 17:49Acute decreases in cerebral blood flow,
  • 17:52a heightened risk of Afib,
  • 17:55induced cardio embolic stroke,
  • 17:58paradoxical embolism through PFOA,
  • 18:00which happens to be much more
  • 18:03common in in people with sleep apnea
  • 18:05than than the general population.
  • 18:07And so we'll spend the next
  • 18:09several minutes kind of delving
  • 18:10into these mechanisms.
  • 18:15So the six mechanisms I'd
  • 18:18like to highlight for today's
  • 18:20talk are intermittent hypoxia,
  • 18:22sympathetic activation,
  • 18:24metabolic dysfunction, snoring and
  • 18:27vibration induced carotid disease,
  • 18:30arrhythmia and cardioembolic stroke,
  • 18:32and PFOA and paradoxical embolism.
  • 18:34And all of these mechanisms have
  • 18:37been extensively studied and and
  • 18:40have been shown to have a direct
  • 18:42causal effect on the pathway
  • 18:43between sleep apnea and stroke.
  • 18:49So the first mechanism
  • 18:51is intermittent hypoxia.
  • 18:53So sleep apnea results in
  • 18:56repetitive episodes of hypoxia
  • 18:58and the varying severity and
  • 19:00duration all throughout the night.
  • 19:03This intermittent hypoxia and has
  • 19:06been shown to lead to generation
  • 19:10of reactive oxygen species,
  • 19:12activation of transcription
  • 19:14factor and release of cytokine
  • 19:17and adhesion molecules.
  • 19:19And this ultimately results in
  • 19:21endothelial dysfunction and the
  • 19:23development of atherosclerosis.
  • 19:27So as our barzman and colleagues
  • 19:29conducted an interesting and relevant
  • 19:32study a few years ago looking at
  • 19:35outcome implications of the hypoxic
  • 19:37burden and they were able to
  • 19:39actually quantify the hypoxic burden.
  • 19:41And so, given that that HIV poorly
  • 19:45predicts outcomes in sleep apnea,
  • 19:48the authors thought that maybe
  • 19:50quantification of the actual burden of
  • 19:53hypoxia and including sort of depth and
  • 19:56duration metrics would more accurately
  • 19:59correlate with adverse cardiovascular
  • 20:01and cerebrovascular outcomes.
  • 20:04So they use two very large cohorts
  • 20:07of older adults.
  • 20:08They use the outcomes of sleep
  • 20:10disorders in older men cohort and
  • 20:13the sleep heart health cohort.
  • 20:15And they measured hypoxic burden as the
  • 20:18respiratory event associated associated
  • 20:21area under the desaturation curve.
  • 20:25And they compared this curve
  • 20:27with the pre event baseline.
  • 20:29So in the figure from this paper on
  • 20:31the left you can see an example of
  • 20:34this calculation with Apneas recorded
  • 20:36on the top and oxygen saturation on
  • 20:39the bottom with time on the X axis.
  • 20:42And the figure on the right is
  • 20:45from the same study and it shows
  • 20:49adjusted survival for cardiovascular
  • 20:51more mortality across.
  • 20:53Each severity category of hypoxic burden.
  • 20:59And they did a nice accurate rainbow
  • 21:04for for different severities.
  • 21:06So you can you can see here with the X
  • 21:09axis showing time and years and the Y
  • 21:12axis I'm showing survival probability
  • 21:14that the worse the hypoxic burden,
  • 21:17the shorter the survival.
  • 21:24The next mechanism by which
  • 21:26sleep apnea increases stroke
  • 21:27risk is sympathetic activation,
  • 21:29and this figure on seeing here on
  • 21:32this slide is a nice depiction of a
  • 21:36representative cut from nocturnal monitoring.
  • 21:39But you can see that there's a spike in
  • 21:43sympathetic nerve activity with each apnea,
  • 21:46and a corresponding surge in blood
  • 21:48pressure at the termination of each apnea.
  • 21:51And so this finding is reproducible
  • 21:54basically with each apnea.
  • 21:56And so it's happening presumably
  • 21:59hundreds of times per night and more
  • 22:03with increasing severity of sleep apnea.
  • 22:06And so this is thought at least in
  • 22:08part to be due to a resetting of
  • 22:11baroreceptor sensitivity during sleep
  • 22:13in patients who have sleep apnea.
  • 22:16And this finding is most pronounced
  • 22:19in end to sleep. Random sleep.
  • 22:24Interestingly, this phenomenon of
  • 22:27of increased sympathetic activation
  • 22:30can also be seen during wakefulness.
  • 22:34And so in an older but excellent
  • 22:36Physiology study by summer and colleagues,
  • 22:39the authors demonstrated that this
  • 22:42sympathetic nerve activity actually
  • 22:44persists during wakefulness in
  • 22:46people with obstructive sleep apnea.
  • 22:49And so here you can see on nerve
  • 22:52tone tracings in awake subjects.
  • 22:55Normal, meaning no sleep apnea
  • 22:58and OSA in patients with sleep
  • 23:01apnea and so on the left,
  • 23:03you can see that there's lower
  • 23:05lower tone than on the right,
  • 23:07and this is again an awake patient.
  • 23:10And so very clearly,
  • 23:12this propensity towards heightened
  • 23:15sympathetic activity is actually
  • 23:17not just limited to when when these
  • 23:21sleep apnea patients are sleeping,
  • 23:23but also throughout the day,
  • 23:25which increases risk further.
  • 23:32So moving on to mechanism 3,
  • 23:35I will talk about metabolic
  • 23:37dysfunction and I'd specifically
  • 23:39like to focus on type 2 diabetes
  • 23:42in patients with sleep apnea.
  • 23:45So this is relevant because
  • 23:47diabetes on its own is actually
  • 23:51a potent risk factor for stroke,
  • 23:54but OSA is also an independent
  • 23:57risk factor for diabetes,
  • 23:59even after adjustment for confounders
  • 24:02like BMI and weight gain.
  • 24:07So this table here on the right is
  • 24:09from an observational cohort study
  • 24:12where over 1200 veterans in the
  • 24:15VA system were evaluated for sleep
  • 24:17disordered breathing and surprisingly
  • 24:20about half did not have diabetes at
  • 24:23the time of the of study enrollment.
  • 24:26And so these folks went on to
  • 24:28complete a full PSG and the study
  • 24:31population was divided into quartiles
  • 24:34based on sleep apnea severity and.
  • 24:37The main outcome of interest
  • 24:40was incident diabetes.
  • 24:41So their initial analysis looking at
  • 24:44linear Trend showed a significantly
  • 24:47increased risk of incident diabetes as
  • 24:50a function of severity of sleep apnea.
  • 24:53And as you can see here in the table,
  • 24:55sleep apnea was associated with diabetes,
  • 24:58even after adjustment for age, race,
  • 25:02gender, and baseline fasting glucose, BMI,
  • 25:06as well as weight gain or change in BMI.
  • 25:13And mechanisms through which sleep
  • 25:14apnea is implicated in the development
  • 25:17of type 2 diabetes include activation
  • 25:19of the sympathetic nervous system,
  • 25:22which we just discussed because sympathetic
  • 25:25nervous system activity plays a key role
  • 25:28in regulation of glucose metabolism.
  • 25:30Another mechanism is oxidative stress,
  • 25:33where sleep apnea may accelerate
  • 25:36progression to type 2 diabetes.
  • 25:391/3 mechanism is subclinical
  • 25:42inflammation and adipocyte derived
  • 25:45inflammatory factors like I6,
  • 25:48which have been well established
  • 25:50mediators in the pathogenesis of diabetes.
  • 25:54And systemic inflammation
  • 25:55and cytokine production,
  • 25:57which are augmented by sleep
  • 26:00loss or sleep deficit,
  • 26:01can also hasten the progression to diabetes.
  • 26:04And then finally,
  • 26:05it it seems in in more recent
  • 26:08literature that OSA in pregnancy has
  • 26:10actually been associated with insulin
  • 26:13resistance and gestational diabetes,
  • 26:15and this is an area of active research.
  • 26:22So the 4th mechanism is one that I I think
  • 26:27is kind of fun because it's so intuitive.
  • 26:30So snoring and vibration
  • 26:33induced carotid disease.
  • 26:35So basically the direct effect
  • 26:39of of snores on the local carotid
  • 26:43artery causing disease.
  • 26:45So the effect is not limited
  • 26:47just to people with sleep apnea,
  • 26:50because anyone who snores is at risk,
  • 26:53but since almost everyone
  • 26:55with sleep apnea snores,
  • 26:56it is irrelevant risk factor.
  • 26:59So snores originate in the upper airway.
  • 27:02They cause vibration of the
  • 27:04pharyngeal wall and local structures
  • 27:06which are all near the carotid.
  • 27:09And then over time when the
  • 27:12carotid endothelium continuously
  • 27:13is exposed to this vibration,
  • 27:15it can become damaged and atherosclerotic.
  • 27:19The evidence to support this
  • 27:20comes from a lot of studies,
  • 27:22but one particular study of
  • 27:25interest by Lee and colleagues is
  • 27:28noteworthy because they compared
  • 27:30carotid and femoral arteries and
  • 27:32snores and found that the carotids,
  • 27:35which are directly affected by snoring
  • 27:38vibration had higher atherosclerosis
  • 27:40burden than the femoral arteries.
  • 27:43And as you can see here on the slide,
  • 27:45the Audrey ratio was was 10 even
  • 27:47after adjustment for relevant.
  • 27:49Variables.
  • 27:51It's also worth mentioning
  • 27:53that in the SAVE trial,
  • 27:56they did evaluate self reported
  • 27:58snoring patterns and stroke events in
  • 28:01high risk patients with sleep apnea,
  • 28:03and the authors observed that
  • 28:05among the sleep apnea patients,
  • 28:07increased frequency,
  • 28:09self reported frequency,
  • 28:10and loudness of snoring was
  • 28:13associated with greater risk
  • 28:14of cerebrovascular events.
  • 28:22So. Mechanism 5,
  • 28:26arrhythmia and cardioembolic stroke on.
  • 28:30So we often jump to Afib as the
  • 28:32the the main arrhythmia that we
  • 28:35associate with sleep apnea and stroke.
  • 28:38But sleep apnea is in fact linked
  • 28:41with higher risk of many arrhythmias.
  • 28:44So Mara and colleagues compared
  • 28:46the prevalence of arrhythmias in
  • 28:48two samples of participants from
  • 28:50the sleep Heart health study,
  • 28:52matched for age, sex, BMI,
  • 28:57and race and ethnicity.
  • 28:59And they found that among
  • 29:01those with sleep apnea,
  • 29:04which for the purposes of the
  • 29:06study was defined as an RDI of
  • 29:09greater than or equal to 30,
  • 29:11and that there was a significantly
  • 29:14higher rate of arrhythmia.
  • 29:17And and not just A-fib.
  • 29:20So in the figure on the left,
  • 29:21you can see various arrhythmias
  • 29:23listed on the X axis,
  • 29:26with the Gray bars representing the
  • 29:28those with sleep apnea and the white
  • 29:32bars on patients without sleep apnea.
  • 29:35And you can nicely see that all
  • 29:38arrhythmias noted have vastly higher
  • 29:41prevalence in the sleep apnea cohort.
  • 29:44And on the right,
  • 29:46you can see a table from the same
  • 29:49study and looking at adjusted and
  • 29:52unadjusted odds ratios really
  • 29:54relating arrhythmia with sleep apnea.
  • 29:57Um,
  • 29:58so?
  • 29:58All arrhythmias are obviously harbingers
  • 30:01of poor cardiovascular implications,
  • 30:03and so this is relevant outside of Afib,
  • 30:06but Afib in particular has a another hit on.
  • 30:11And because it can give rise
  • 30:13to cardio embolic stroke.
  • 30:14And so we've also noted in in
  • 30:18various studies when it comes to
  • 30:20Afib that there does seem to be
  • 30:24a dose response relationship and
  • 30:26where by increasing sleep apnea
  • 30:29severity is associated with higher
  • 30:32prevalence of Ethan and and also
  • 30:34we've seen that in people with
  • 30:38paroxysmal atrial fibrillation.
  • 30:41Um,
  • 30:41these paroxysms tend to emerge
  • 30:43shortly after an apnea or hypopnea.
  • 30:51So I'm moving on to mechanism 6,
  • 30:55PFOA, and paradoxical embolism.
  • 30:57And PFOA is a risk factor,
  • 31:01a well known risk factor
  • 31:02for cryptogenic stroke.
  • 31:03It's more prevalent among patients with
  • 31:07sleep apnea compared to those without.
  • 31:10And sort of mechanistically speaking,
  • 31:13frequent transient right side pressure
  • 31:16increases during the apneas themselves
  • 31:19can cause right to left shunting through
  • 31:21the PTFO which can lead to stroke.
  • 31:24And then also may contribute to nocturnal
  • 31:27desaturation in the setting of shunting.
  • 31:35So now that we've established that
  • 31:37OSA is a risk factor for stroke and
  • 31:40explored many of the key mechanisms,
  • 31:43I'd like to focus the remainder of the
  • 31:45talk and hopefully some discussion about
  • 31:49the the on the treatment implications
  • 31:52and future directions in this domain.
  • 31:59So why is this important?
  • 32:00Well, currently acute
  • 32:04ischemic stroke treatments,
  • 32:06which have gotten quite excellent,
  • 32:09are not widely applicable because of narrow,
  • 32:12narrow therapeutic windows
  • 32:14or accessibility issues.
  • 32:16And there are basically no
  • 32:19targeted therapies for for
  • 32:20hemorrhagic stroke or Tia.
  • 32:26So a logical hypothesis then is that PAP
  • 32:29therapy will improve stroke outcomes
  • 32:32and may reduce recurrent events.
  • 32:34And it makes sense because, you know,
  • 32:37we just talked about all of these
  • 32:40mechanisms which are exacerbated by.
  • 32:42Apnea burden.
  • 32:43So if we reduce the apnea burden,
  • 32:46then perhaps we can improve outcomes.
  • 32:49And if this is true,
  • 32:50then pat therapy and stroke patients
  • 32:53may actually represent a new frontier
  • 32:56in treatment which we really need.
  • 33:02So first of all,
  • 33:03what do we know about PAP and outcomes?
  • 33:07And unfortunately, really not too much.
  • 33:11You know, I even even went back to the
  • 33:13literature as recently as yesterday
  • 33:15and there's really not much there,
  • 33:17and that's not for lack of effort.
  • 33:19And we basically know that PAP
  • 33:22use among post stroke patients
  • 33:24appears to be associated with
  • 33:26a decrease in stroke mortality.
  • 33:29But this is largely based on observational
  • 33:32studies and examining treatment efficacy,
  • 33:35which are really subject to
  • 33:37healthy user effect and thus
  • 33:40tend to overestimate the effect.
  • 33:43And for those unfamiliar with
  • 33:44the healthy user effect,
  • 33:46this is a phenomenon where patients
  • 33:48who are adherent to one therapy,
  • 33:51so in this case PAP,
  • 33:53may also be adherent to other therapies
  • 33:56or may value a healthier life.
  • 33:58Style in other ways and other
  • 34:01domains which may lead to an
  • 34:04overestimate of the therapy of choice,
  • 34:07of the effect that the therapy of choice.
  • 34:11So we also know that RCT is
  • 34:14to date have been small,
  • 34:16so typically under 80 patients and
  • 34:18have shown mixed results and the mixed
  • 34:21results are thought to be multifactorial.
  • 34:24But some issues or ideas as to why
  • 34:27they're so mixed include variability
  • 34:30and path initiation timing.
  • 34:33Small sample sizes as well as varied
  • 34:37endpoints such as you know, intermediate
  • 34:41outcomes of cardiovascular disease,
  • 34:43functional recovery, mortality.
  • 34:49So what are the guidelines say?
  • 34:51Well, before 2021,
  • 34:53they didn't say much of anything.
  • 34:56And now, as of the 2021
  • 35:00update from the American Heart
  • 35:03Association and Stroke guidelines,
  • 35:05there's actually an entire section
  • 35:07dedicated to obstructive sleep apnea,
  • 35:09which is exciting and I think important.
  • 35:12And so the recommendations are distilled
  • 35:14down to the figure I'm showing here,
  • 35:17but basically.
  • 35:18They're saying that in patients with an
  • 35:22escape chemic stroke or Tia and sleep apnea,
  • 35:25treatment with positive airway pressure can
  • 35:28be beneficial for improved sleep apnea,
  • 35:30blood pressure,
  • 35:31sleepiness and other apnea related outcomes,
  • 35:34which is sort of a bucket of
  • 35:38things that I think a lot of
  • 35:40investigators are trying to teeth out.
  • 35:42And and this is based on moderate
  • 35:45evidence per their classification
  • 35:48system and they also recommend that
  • 35:51in patients with an ischemic stroke
  • 35:54or Tia and evaluation for OSA may be
  • 35:57considered to diagnose sleep apnea.
  • 35:59And this is based on weak evidence
  • 36:02by their classification system.
  • 36:05And so I think, you know,
  • 36:07the takeaways from here are that
  • 36:10first of all.
  • 36:12You know I think a lot of us believe
  • 36:14that we probably should be testing all
  • 36:17stroke and Tia patients for sleep apnea.
  • 36:20But we can't really provide the
  • 36:22evidence to back it up because of all
  • 36:24of the reasons that we just discussed
  • 36:26and all the issues with them with how
  • 36:29do you study this population and and
  • 36:31and keep it consistent so that you can
  • 36:34actually make a a statement that is
  • 36:37of better than weak recommendation.
  • 36:42You'll also note that there is
  • 36:44no mention of hemorrhagic stroke,
  • 36:47and that's because of the large gap in
  • 36:49literature which I mentioned earlier.
  • 36:55So I'd like to take a few minutes to
  • 36:57highlight some of the ongoing trials
  • 36:59here at Yale and and around the country.
  • 37:02And the first is rise up,
  • 37:05which is basically looking at the
  • 37:08question of whether PAP improves
  • 37:11post stroke outcomes and what the
  • 37:14ideal timing of PAP initiation is.
  • 37:17And I'll also mention that my
  • 37:19Co mentors Kevin, Jeff and Char
  • 37:21Yaggi are Co Pi on this project.
  • 37:24And so the study is actively enrolling
  • 37:27patients with acute ischemic stroke in
  • 37:30the hospital and performing ambulatory
  • 37:32polysomnography in the acute setting.
  • 37:35And just to mention,
  • 37:37this technology is actually groundbreaking
  • 37:40in and of itself to be able to do
  • 37:43basically a full PSG in the hospital,
  • 37:46you know,
  • 37:47the day or two after an acute stroke
  • 37:50definitely has the potential to build
  • 37:54new diagnostic pathways for stroke
  • 37:57patients if the outcomes warranted.
  • 38:00So the study aims to determine if CPAP
  • 38:02helps after stroke and if there's a
  • 38:05difference in the degree of improvement
  • 38:07between timing of acute intervention,
  • 38:10which would be one week following stroke
  • 38:14or sub acute intervention at one month.
  • 38:17And the main outcome is functional
  • 38:20recovery at six months following stroke.
  • 38:24So the study was initially designed to
  • 38:26enroll patients only with ischemic stroke,
  • 38:29but we have since expanded it and to
  • 38:33enroll an observational arm of patients
  • 38:36with interest cerebral hemorrhage and
  • 38:39given the strong association that we
  • 38:42saw in my previously discussed work and
  • 38:45the infrastructure through rise up and
  • 38:47the mentorship team to be able to do it.
  • 38:54Another study that I would like
  • 38:56to mention is sleep smart.
  • 38:58So this is a national sleep
  • 39:00apnea and stroke treatment trial
  • 39:02and Yale is a clinical site,
  • 39:04and the aim here is to test whether
  • 39:07a treatment of sleep apnea with pack
  • 39:11therapy after a recent stroke or a
  • 39:14high risk Tia prevents a recurrence of
  • 39:17stroke or ACS or all cause mortality.
  • 39:22As you can see from the the flow
  • 39:25sheet protocol here and patients are
  • 39:28screened and then again ambulatory full
  • 39:32PSG is performed on the first night.
  • 39:35Some patients don't qualify because
  • 39:37they don't have sleep apnea,
  • 39:38they don't have obstructive sleep apnea
  • 39:40or they're limited to central sleep apnea.
  • 39:43But if patients have an HIV of
  • 39:4710 or greater then they are they
  • 39:49they move on to a run in night.
  • 39:52Time basically a trial of CPAP
  • 39:54for the second night,
  • 39:56and then some are not able to tolerate it,
  • 39:59in which case they are not randomized.
  • 40:01But those who are able to tolerate
  • 40:04CPAP for four or more hours are
  • 40:07then randomized into either the
  • 40:09intervention group or the control group.
  • 40:17And then finally,
  • 40:18I'll just mention my own pilot study,
  • 40:20which I alluded to briefly when
  • 40:22I was telling you about rise up.
  • 40:24So the evaluating neurological
  • 40:26recovery in NIH and sleep apnea
  • 40:29study or the enriched SA study,
  • 40:32because everything needs a
  • 40:34snazzy name to get funded,
  • 40:36is a pilot project of mine that's
  • 40:39currently funded by the ASM
  • 40:42Foundation for one year this year.
  • 40:45And I plan to enroll 20 patients
  • 40:48with intracerebral hemorrhage in
  • 40:50the hospital setting and perform
  • 40:52that same wonderful ambulatory
  • 40:54polysomnography that I've been telling
  • 40:57you about in the acute setting.
  • 41:00And my aims are to determine the
  • 41:02prevalence of sleep apnea and it's
  • 41:05individual physiologic traits and ICH.
  • 41:08And to compare functional outcomes,
  • 41:12which is the primary outcome,
  • 41:14as well as cognitive status,
  • 41:16which is the secondary outcome at three
  • 41:19months post stroke among patients with
  • 41:22among IH patients with and without OSA.
  • 41:26And my hypothesis is that those
  • 41:28with ICH who have sleep apnea will
  • 41:32have worse outcomes at three months
  • 41:34compared to those without OSA.
  • 41:37And that measures of more severe sleep
  • 41:40apnea will correlate with worse outcomes.
  • 41:44And so I'm just,
  • 41:46you know the sort of the,
  • 41:48I think the most exciting aspect of this
  • 41:51to me is actually doing the objective
  • 41:54gold standard testing because while
  • 41:57my previous work was very helpful
  • 41:59to sort of highlight an association
  • 42:02and one of our limitations was that
  • 42:05the Berlin questionnaire was our
  • 42:07our sort of diagnostic tool because
  • 42:10there were no polysomnograms and so,
  • 42:12so it's very exciting to be able to.
  • 42:15Actually perform this.
  • 42:17And so here you can see on the the plan.
  • 42:23So so the patients will have a
  • 42:28bunch of baseline assessments
  • 42:31including certain metrics for IH,
  • 42:35predicted outcomes and mortality as
  • 42:40well as cognitive testing and then other
  • 42:44and then other testing and then they will.
  • 42:47Follow up at one month and then at three
  • 42:51months and in this particular study
  • 42:54there testing will end at three months.
  • 42:56But as Clara mentioned at the beginning,
  • 42:59I was just recently funded for KL2
  • 43:05award in which we plan to look a lot
  • 43:08more at the the phenotypes and and
  • 43:12Physiology questions and actually study
  • 43:14these patients out to six months time.
  • 43:17To see their outcomes.
  • 43:24Time. So on this slide,
  • 43:26I've highlighted some of the knowledge gaps,
  • 43:29many of which we kind of
  • 43:31discussed through the talk,
  • 43:33but just to lay them out there.
  • 43:36They include who will benefit from CPAP?
  • 43:39Because we don't want to force anyone
  • 43:41to use CPAP if there's no reason to,
  • 43:43because patients typically don't like it.
  • 43:46And what is the ideal timing of
  • 43:48testing and treatment initiation
  • 43:50in relation to stroke onset?
  • 43:52What dose and what type of PAP is most
  • 43:55likely to work and to promote adherence?
  • 43:58And what is the role of phenotyping?
  • 44:00And is all that holds true for
  • 44:03ischemic stroke and Tia true for ICH?
  • 44:06And on a personal level,
  • 44:08I am trying to tackle a few of these.
  • 44:11And you know in in particular,
  • 44:14I think that that final question
  • 44:16and while it seems like it will
  • 44:18be true and it makes physiologic
  • 44:20sense that it would be true,
  • 44:22it'll be really nice to actually show it.
  • 44:24And so, so time,
  • 44:26time will tell.
  • 44:31So in summary, sleep apnea is independently
  • 44:36associated with Tia and stroke,
  • 44:40both ischemic and ICH,
  • 44:43and the association appears somewhat
  • 44:46bidirectional but vastly favors the
  • 44:50direction of sleep apnea causing strokes.
  • 44:53And mechanisms include intermittent hypoxia,
  • 44:57sympathetic activation,
  • 44:58metabolic dysfunction,
  • 45:00shortened sleep duration,
  • 45:02snoring and vibration
  • 45:04induced carotid disease,
  • 45:05arrhythmia, and PFOA.
  • 45:09Diabetes, hypertension and Afib
  • 45:10appear to be on the causal pathway
  • 45:13between sleep apnea and stroke.
  • 45:17Challenges exist and conducting long term
  • 45:20randomized controlled trials with CPAP and
  • 45:23the benefit is not yet clearly defined.
  • 45:26And then finally, I hope I've impressed
  • 45:28upon you that there are a lot of new
  • 45:30and exciting stroke trials underway.
  • 45:31So I think that hopefully if
  • 45:34I'm invited back to speak,
  • 45:36you know in in several months to
  • 45:40years that we will have more to say
  • 45:42on these topics and maybe more some
  • 45:45more concrete or definitive answers.
  • 45:48So with that, I want to just thank
  • 45:50everyone for your attention today.
  • 45:51It really is a huge honor to talk about
  • 45:54this topic with this particular group.
  • 45:56And I definitely look forward to hearing
  • 45:58questions as well as any thoughts and
  • 46:01suggestions that anyone has as I start
  • 46:03my own research career here at Yale.
  • 46:06And before I take questions,
  • 46:08I just want to thank my research mentors,
  • 46:10specifically Clara and Kevin.
  • 46:12I know it sounds corny,
  • 46:14but they really did believe in me
  • 46:16and my potential and when I had
  • 46:19very little research background.
  • 46:21So I'm forever grateful for that.
  • 46:24And of course,
  • 46:25here's an obligatory picture of
  • 46:26my 3 little people who keep me
  • 46:29very active and sleep deprived.
  • 46:31And thank you again,
  • 46:33and I'm happy to take questions.
  • 46:37OK. That was wonderful, Jackie.
  • 46:40Thank you for that overview and I think
  • 46:44please folks, feel free to put in.
  • 46:48Uh, some comments or questions
  • 46:50in into the chat and and while
  • 46:52we wait for folks to do that,
  • 46:55I you know, I think.
  • 46:57It is having been in,
  • 46:59in this domain at least on the ischemic
  • 47:00stroke side for a number of years.
  • 47:02It really is quite amazing to me
  • 47:05the developments that the field of
  • 47:08neurology has had just a really
  • 47:10in the last five to 10 years
  • 47:13with endovascular treatments and
  • 47:15medications and thrombolytic therapies.
  • 47:18It is, it is just incredible
  • 47:21expanding the hours of of therapy
  • 47:24that many of these patients can get.
  • 47:28Um treatments,
  • 47:29but they're still is I think a large
  • 47:34group of patients who have I would
  • 47:36say probably particularly Jackie on
  • 47:39on on the ICH side that have really
  • 47:42profound functional and and cognitive
  • 47:45impairment after their stroke.
  • 47:47And so I think we're where this work
  • 47:50is particularly promising and the
  • 47:52work that you're doing in ICH is,
  • 47:55is the idea that something that can be
  • 47:58applied really to the majority of people who.
  • 48:00Who have had these strokes given the
  • 48:03prevalence estimates you're finding
  • 48:04that can be continued, you know,
  • 48:06started in the acute setting,
  • 48:07potentially continued to over
  • 48:09rehab and has the potential to to
  • 48:13perhaps improve functional recovery
  • 48:15is is really I think a sort of
  • 48:19a novel line of investigation.
  • 48:22The.
  • 48:22You know, a couple of specific questions.
  • 48:25One is I think another another
  • 48:29sort of rationale for embarking
  • 48:31on this investigation given what
  • 48:34we've observed on the ischemic
  • 48:36stroke side is that there's a lot
  • 48:39of overlap mechanistically between
  • 48:41aschematic stroke and ICH in terms
  • 48:44of atherosclerosis mechanisms.
  • 48:46And I think that played a role
  • 48:48into the analytic strategy that
  • 48:50you engaged in on that original
  • 48:52cross section looking at.
  • 48:54Sort of a layered analysis with hypertension.
  • 48:56I wonder if you might make might
  • 48:58speak a little bit more about,
  • 48:59about that and the challenges of
  • 49:01looking at that,
  • 49:01some of those founding factors.
  • 49:03Yeah. And yeah, no, it's definitely.
  • 49:06I I agree with all that you said and I
  • 49:08think that you're right that it really
  • 49:11all comes back to sort of small vessel
  • 49:13ischemic disease which is not intuitive
  • 49:15and and and certainly not something
  • 49:19that I would have thought was at all.
  • 49:22You know I think when when internist think
  • 49:25about hemorrhagic stroke or particularly
  • 49:27you know interest cerebral hemorrhage
  • 49:29as a stroke subtype we think about
  • 49:31aneurysm rupture you know brain tumor you
  • 49:34know I think it it takes a little bit.
  • 49:37On. More education, I think,
  • 49:41than we get in our basic internal medicine
  • 49:44training to really understand the nuances,
  • 49:47but it's it's really fascinating
  • 49:49to see all you know it all of the.
  • 49:53The similarities in pathophysiology between
  • 49:56a schematic stroke and hemorrhagic stroke,
  • 50:00or particularly IC H and so I think.
  • 50:04To your point,
  • 50:05it really does sort of lend itself.
  • 50:07It's sort of shocking when you think
  • 50:10about it that that this hasn't been
  • 50:13done and that actually so if you,
  • 50:15you know for a lot of studies that have,
  • 50:16you know,
  • 50:17brain hemorrhage was excluded
  • 50:19and then I think that.
  • 50:22As far as the sort of process of teasing
  • 50:25it out since hypertension is such.
  • 50:31Sort of a main risk factor for IC H and we
  • 50:35spend a lot of time trying to figure out.
  • 50:39You know how,
  • 50:40how it's impact might not be
  • 50:43over represented,
  • 50:44but also not wanting to completely
  • 50:46eliminate it because we know that it has
  • 50:48a complex relationship with sleep apnea.
  • 50:50And so as you as you mentioned
  • 50:53we did several analysis.
  • 50:55It's also worth noting that the
  • 50:58Berlin questionnaire includes
  • 50:59hypertension as one of the main
  • 51:01components of the questionnaire itself,
  • 51:03and so on.
  • 51:06What we ended,
  • 51:06we did one analysis actually
  • 51:08where we just removed hypertension
  • 51:09from the Berlin questionnaires.
  • 51:11We rescored them and then ran the
  • 51:14analysis because we we wanted to sort of,
  • 51:16you know,
  • 51:17play a worst case scenario for hypertension,
  • 51:19best case scenario for the connection and
  • 51:22it's still remained a significant finding.
  • 51:25And so I think that the the challenge
  • 51:27for me and I think for a lot of us is
  • 51:29that there is no standard approach
  • 51:30to this and you want to make sure
  • 51:33that what you're finding makes
  • 51:34physiologic sense and is plausible.
  • 51:36Um,
  • 51:37but but there's no manual for how to do it.
  • 51:40Or or you know,
  • 51:41which which analysis is going
  • 51:42to is going to say, OK, see,
  • 51:44this is definitely accurate,
  • 51:45but I think we can safely say that
  • 51:47we're really on to something here,
  • 51:48even when we exclude hypertension.
  • 51:51OK, so there's a several
  • 51:54questions in the chat.
  • 51:56The first is from Doctor Hoffman,
  • 51:59which is an interesting question.
  • 52:01So any concerns about increased
  • 52:02intercranial pressure with CPAP
  • 52:04in an acute stroke setting?
  • 52:07So I I've had the same,
  • 52:09I've had the same thought.
  • 52:10I I think the answer is that it's
  • 52:14probably not high enough pressure
  • 52:16and we're and we're not dealing.
  • 52:19I I don't actually know
  • 52:20exactly how to answer that.
  • 52:21I think it's an excellent question
  • 52:22and I think that the general,
  • 52:24the consensus is that no.
  • 52:28That the pressures are
  • 52:29probably not high enough,
  • 52:30but I can't say that this has
  • 52:33actually been studied and to to my
  • 52:35knowledge I'm not sure if if, Kevin,
  • 52:38I see you're you're on the call or if
  • 52:40anyone else has an answer to this.
  • 52:43And I mean, it's a,
  • 52:44it's a good question,
  • 52:45but it turns out actually ICP is
  • 52:48virtually never important Q stroke.
  • 52:51And it just it just in terms of
  • 52:53prevalence it's only in the hyper
  • 52:55acute setting and the most sort
  • 52:57of you know in the most severe or
  • 52:59largest infarcts or hemorrhages that
  • 53:00ICP ends up being an issue and and
  • 53:02those patients either just going to
  • 53:04be very small population or going to
  • 53:06be excluded from all these studies.
  • 53:09It would be an exception
  • 53:10in all the other patients that just,
  • 53:11it turns out not to matter
  • 53:13at all. OK, thanks. That makes sense.
  • 53:15So basically if it if it is a concern,
  • 53:17the patients probably intubated anyway
  • 53:19and by the time if they are able to be
  • 53:23extubated and potentially use CPAP,
  • 53:25it's it's probably not an issue anymore?
  • 53:30There's another question, Jackie.
  • 53:31And so based on your observations,
  • 53:34when would you consider an ideal
  • 53:36time to start PAP therapy in,
  • 53:38in post stroke patients?
  • 53:40So I think that's sort of
  • 53:41the $1,000,000 question.
  • 53:42And I think probably 1 component,
  • 53:45which I didn't speak much about today
  • 53:47but is vitally important, is adherence.
  • 53:50I think you want to find the best
  • 53:53balance on like when is it most tolerant,
  • 53:55like when will the patient tolerate it?
  • 53:58Because you, you know,
  • 53:59even if there were some
  • 54:00marginal benefit to starting it,
  • 54:01like the day they come in for their stroke,
  • 54:04say, you know, if they're totally
  • 54:07overwhelmed by everything that's
  • 54:08going on or they have some new.
  • 54:10Um, functional limitation that they're
  • 54:12aware of and they're, you know,
  • 54:14there's a lot of sort of like.
  • 54:16You know emotional, physical,
  • 54:18cognitive components here.
  • 54:20And so I think that like my overall
  • 54:22answer is that the best time is when
  • 54:25they'll use it if we think it's helpful,
  • 54:28which I think the majority of us do.
  • 54:30And that being said,
  • 54:31I think that's a huge area of ongoing study.
  • 54:35I mean particularly as far as its impact
  • 54:37on outcomes what you know what timing
  • 54:40is ideal for for outcomes and and I
  • 54:42will put a plug in that we're we're
  • 54:45also for rise up one of the things that I.
  • 54:47I'm excited to be a part of is
  • 54:49working on the qualitative component,
  • 54:51kind of talking to people about
  • 54:54their experiences in the study,
  • 54:56with the path,
  • 54:57with their stroke and kind of
  • 55:00hearing a little bit more about.
  • 55:03What?
  • 55:04Like,
  • 55:04what plays into that because
  • 55:05they think adherence is key?
  • 55:09I think those are all great points.
  • 55:10I would just add you know we're
  • 55:12a little bit further ahead on the
  • 55:15ischemic stroke side than the ICH side
  • 55:16at looking at the this timing issue.
  • 55:18And I think some of the preliminary
  • 55:22studies that have been done have
  • 55:25suggested that the earlier the initiation
  • 55:28of PAP therapy may be of theoretical
  • 55:31benefit and the acute stroke setting
  • 55:34to a brain and and and an ischemic
  • 55:36penumbra of the brain that may be
  • 55:39particularly susceptible to some of the.
  • 55:41Physiologic sequelae of sleep apnea
  • 55:44and that was that's sort of the.
  • 55:46But at the same time to Jackie's point you,
  • 55:48you have you have patients who
  • 55:50are acutely stroked and might have
  • 55:52difficulty adhering to or tolerating so.
  • 55:55So I think that that time point is
  • 55:57needs to needs to be worked out
  • 55:59but the thing about you know having
  • 56:01this as a complementary acute stroke
  • 56:04therapy is I think very appealing.
  • 56:07Umm.
  • 56:10Let's see here.
  • 56:12So Kevin, do you want to
  • 56:14weigh in with your question?
  • 56:15I'm just curious, Jackie,
  • 56:16there's great, great talk.
  • 56:18I may have asked you this before
  • 56:20in the past, but good to just,
  • 56:22let's just forecast the future of touch,
  • 56:24let's say rise up and sleep,
  • 56:25smarter neutral studies.
  • 56:26How are we going to think about
  • 56:29interpreting those findings
  • 56:30and what's next for,
  • 56:31what does that mean for sleep
  • 56:33and also PAP and and stroke?
  • 56:36Yeah, I know. I mean, I think that's
  • 56:38like we have to kind of prepare that.
  • 56:40That's probably going to happen, right?
  • 56:41And then what do we do?
  • 56:43What does it mean?
  • 56:44It's sort of like all the sepsis
  • 56:47and steroid trials.
  • 56:48I think I'm going to say that it
  • 56:50will probably then come down to the whole,
  • 56:52I didn't talk too much about
  • 56:54the phenotyping today.
  • 56:55I think maybe for another talk I would
  • 56:57love to to do that when I have some data.
  • 56:59But I think that it may come down to an
  • 57:04issue of sort of like of means versus sub
  • 57:08you know subgroups and that there there
  • 57:12may be certain sleep apnea phenotypes.
  • 57:17Or or maybe sort of cardiometabolic
  • 57:19phenotypes that do respond and and others
  • 57:23who don't who kind of dilute the pool.
  • 57:26And so, you know,
  • 57:26it's always, it's tricky.
  • 57:29It's it's tricky when it happens,
  • 57:31but I I don't think the game
  • 57:32is over and I do.
  • 57:33I think we all kind of
  • 57:34firmly believe that it.
  • 57:35You know if sleep apnea
  • 57:37causes is a cause for stroke,
  • 57:39how can treating the sleep apnea with the
  • 57:42world's most effective treatment not?
  • 57:44You know,
  • 57:45actually help them in some way or at least
  • 57:47prevent recurrent strokes or cognitive,
  • 57:49you know,
  • 57:51cause, you know,
  • 57:52improve cognition and things like that.
  • 57:56Very good. Thank you very much
  • 57:57for excellent presentation and
  • 57:59and the great questions everyone.
  • 58:00I think we're going to wrap up now.
  • 58:02There's another conference
  • 58:04immediately following this.
  • 58:05Have a great rest of your week,
  • 58:06everyone. Thanks everyone.