"Exploring the Relationship between Sleep Apnea and Stroke" Jacqueline Geer (09/07/2022)
September 23, 2022"Exploring the Relationship between Sleep Apnea and Stroke" Jacqueline Geer (09/07/2022)
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- 00:00So now I will turn the session over to
- 00:02Doctor Yaggi, who is our program director
- 00:04for Yale Center for Sleep Medicine,
- 00:06and he is going to introduce Doctor Dear.
- 00:10Thank you, doctor Hilbert.
- 00:11It is my distinct pleasure to
- 00:14introduce Doctor Jackie Gear,
- 00:17both as a new faculty member in our section,
- 00:20having just finished her fellowship
- 00:22training and as our inaugural
- 00:25speaker this academic year and
- 00:28our Yale Sleep Medicine Seminar.
- 00:30Dr Gear completed her undergraduate
- 00:32training at Washington University
- 00:34in Saint Louis Medical School, NYU.
- 00:36And then we were fortunate to
- 00:38recruit her to Yale, where she.
- 00:40Really has stayed for her clinical
- 00:42training both as an intern,
- 00:43a resident, a chief resident,
- 00:46and fellowship training in pulmonary
- 00:48critical care and Sleep Medicine.
- 00:50And she has been incredibly productive
- 00:53during her fellowship and has managed
- 00:56to advance in a very short time.
- 00:58Our understanding of sleep disordered
- 01:01breathing and intracranial hemorrhage,
- 01:04which is a very common type of stroke,
- 01:07results in considerable mortality as well as.
- 01:11Functional and and cognitive
- 01:13impairment and morbidity.
- 01:15She has already received numerous awards
- 01:17and grants for her work in this domain,
- 01:20including salary support from the NIH,
- 01:22NINDS and stroke net during her
- 01:24fellowship training a TS funding
- 01:27through the Aspire Fellowship,
- 01:29which is designed to promote
- 01:31sleep research among pulmonary and
- 01:33critical care medicine fellows.
- 01:35She's also received an American Academy
- 01:38of Sleep Medicine physician Scientist
- 01:40Training award and most recently.
- 01:42The Yale.
- 01:44But why CI RCTs,
- 01:47a clinical scholars KL2 award all
- 01:50related to her work at this interface of
- 01:53intracranial hemorrhage and and sleep apnea.
- 01:56And today she's going to talk to us
- 01:58more broadly about sleep apnea and
- 01:59stroke and share with her some of the
- 02:02work that she has has done in this domain.
- 02:04Welcome,
- 02:05Jackie.
- 02:08Wow. Thank you so much car for
- 02:10that warm introduction and thanks
- 02:12for everyone for being here today.
- 02:14It's an honor to give the first
- 02:16sleep seminar of the semester.
- 02:18I actually hadn't realized that
- 02:19initially when I signed up for the state.
- 02:21So lots of lots to live up to you
- 02:24or or maybe not so much we'll save.
- 02:27So I am extremely excited today to talk
- 02:30to you all about sleep apnea and stroke.
- 02:32It's a topic of great academic
- 02:36interest to me and.
- 02:38Before we get started, let me just.
- 02:44There we go, and before we get started,
- 02:46I'll just put the CME slide up again.
- 02:48I think you all already saw it,
- 02:50and doctor Hilbert went through the
- 02:53the rules and I have no personal and
- 02:56relevant financial disclosures to share.
- 03:00So before I delve into
- 03:02the outline for the talk,
- 03:04I'll just take a minute to share with you
- 03:06how I became interested in this domain.
- 03:09And so as a first year pulmonary
- 03:11and critical care fellow,
- 03:13I had an early rotation in the Neuro
- 03:17ICU where I had many stroke patients,
- 03:19but also many ICA or interest
- 03:22cerebral hemorrhage patients,
- 03:23which is not something I had seen
- 03:25much of as a medicine resident.
- 03:27And then there was a a great component.
- 03:30Happenstance as I think is
- 03:32typical for people's research on
- 03:35trajectory and career stories.
- 03:37So it was,
- 03:38first of all the the time of year in
- 03:41that mid fall where you're supposed
- 03:45to figure out what you're going
- 03:47to do with your copious research
- 03:48time in the second and third years.
- 03:51And and so I was sort of pondering that
- 03:54and happened to be working with them.
- 03:57Kevin, Chef in the neuro ICU,
- 03:59was my attending.
- 04:00Time and Kevin is not only
- 04:02a world class researcher,
- 04:04but also an outstanding clinician and
- 04:06has a a strong mentorship track record.
- 04:10And so he and Clara had actually
- 04:12just received R1 funding for a
- 04:14sleep and a schematic stroke trial,
- 04:17which I'll come back to later on in the talk.
- 04:19But Kevin wondered if I might have
- 04:21any interest in becoming a stroke
- 04:23researcher and he took me out for
- 04:25Arethusa ice cream to discuss it more.
- 04:27And how could I say no?
- 04:29And so I.
- 04:30It really was interested in the topic,
- 04:33which I learned a lot about the relationship
- 04:36between sleep apnea and ischemic stroke,
- 04:39but wondered if maybe the
- 04:40same was true for ICH,
- 04:41which I think was the big question.
- 04:43I discovered that there was a
- 04:45huge gap in the literature and
- 04:46there's actually hardly any work
- 04:48that had been done in that domain.
- 04:51So I was intrigued.
- 04:52I had a dream team for my from
- 04:55my mentors and so we just started
- 04:58working and have been continuing it.
- 05:01Ever since.
- 05:01And so.
- 05:02Today I'm gonna talk to you about the
- 05:06evidence that links sleep apnea and
- 05:08strokes are sort of what do we know,
- 05:12where are we?
- 05:13Explore the proposed mechanisms.
- 05:15So why, why is it,
- 05:18you know,
- 05:18why is sleep apnea a risk factor for stroke?
- 05:21And then talk to you at the end
- 05:22about the role of treatment.
- 05:27So first we'll review the evidence.
- 05:30And so I know I don't have to go into too
- 05:33much detail for this particular audience,
- 05:35but since it is the beginning of the
- 05:36academic year and we have learners with
- 05:38variable experience, I'll just take
- 05:39a moment to talk about sleep apnea.
- 05:41And so OSA is a common form of sleep
- 05:44disordered breathing and it results
- 05:46from intermittent upper airway collapse
- 05:48leading to apneas and hypopneas,
- 05:49which causes cycle of abnormal Physiology,
- 05:53which includes hypoxia,
- 05:55sympathetic activation,
- 05:57hemodynamic disturbance and
- 05:58disruption of sleep architecture.
- 06:01Sleep apnea effects up to 40% of the
- 06:04general population in the literature,
- 06:06and probably more.
- 06:09And it's an established an independent
- 06:11risk factor for ischemic stroke,
- 06:12which is present in up to 75%
- 06:16of this patient population. Um.
- 06:20So some background on stroke.
- 06:22So it's the third leading cause of death
- 06:25in the United States and the 2nd globally.
- 06:27And there are almost a million strokes a
- 06:30year in the United States and more than
- 06:33150,000 stroke related deaths every year.
- 06:36And so scheming stroke is the
- 06:38most common stroke subtype,
- 06:40followed by interest,
- 06:41cerebral hemorrhage ICH.
- 06:44Stroke is the leading cause
- 06:46of long term disability,
- 06:47and it costs an estimated $35
- 06:50billion a year related to healthcare,
- 06:54medication and missed days of productivity.
- 06:59So if you were specifically
- 07:01on spontaneous ICH.
- 07:04Which accounts for a substantial
- 07:05portion of all strokes,
- 07:06but I think we are less familiar
- 07:09with so a common research
- 07:11definition of ICH is non traumatic,
- 07:14abrupt onset of severe headache,
- 07:16altered level of consciousness,
- 07:18and or focal neurologic deficit,
- 07:20with an associated focal collection
- 07:22of blood within the brain frankoma
- 07:24seen on neuroimaging or autopsy.
- 07:26It accounts for up to 20% of all strokes
- 07:30and has a 50% thirty day mortality,
- 07:32and the the half who do survive tend to
- 07:37have significant functional limitations.
- 07:40And risk factors include hypertension,
- 07:42age, diabetes, smoking,
- 07:44anticoagulation,
- 07:45particularly warfarin.
- 07:46And so you'll you'll kind of note
- 07:48that these are are fairly similar
- 07:50risk factors to ischemic stroke.
- 07:56So there have been a number of studies
- 07:58providing epidemiologic evidence
- 08:00and solidifying the connection
- 08:01between sleep apnea and stroke,
- 08:03and I I just have a sampling of
- 08:05them listed here on this slide,
- 08:07and I'll draw your attention
- 08:09to the rightmost column,
- 08:10which shows a consistently strong
- 08:14association of high prevalence of OSA
- 08:18in the respective stroke populations
- 08:21relative to the general population.
- 08:24And actually our own doctor Moseman
- 08:26was one of the first to make
- 08:28this observation and you can see
- 08:30his case control study in 1995
- 08:32at the top of the list there.
- 08:34And there have been tons
- 08:36of studies to follow.
- 08:38And as you can sort of see from
- 08:40the study population column,
- 08:42most of them are looking at
- 08:44ischemic stroke and Tia and a
- 08:46few of them are indiscriminate.
- 08:48And at the bottom,
- 08:49you can see a reference for a study
- 08:52that I conducted during fellowship where
- 08:54we look specifically at interest rate,
- 08:55real hemorrhage patients and and
- 08:58matched controls and found that
- 09:01there was also a very strong
- 09:03prevalence of OSA in the cases,
- 09:05which was significantly more
- 09:07than in the controls.
- 09:08And I'll tell you more about that later.
- 09:11So the real question arising from many
- 09:14of these early studies was whether sleep
- 09:16apnea was a risk factor for stroke,
- 09:19or if stroke caused sleep apnea.
- 09:25So the directionality of association
- 09:27was unclear based on the studies
- 09:29I just mentioned, and ultimately
- 09:32it appears to be bidirectional,
- 09:34but strongly favoring sleep
- 09:36apnea as a cause for stroke.
- 09:39So some evidence to support the the
- 09:42notion that stroke can cause sleep apnea
- 09:46can be found in some earlier studies
- 09:49looking at neuromuscular weakness
- 09:51of the upper airway dilator muscles
- 09:54which can lead to airway collapse.
- 09:57And individuals who are
- 10:00presumably predisposed.
- 10:02Far more compelling is the notion that
- 10:05sleep apnea is a risk factor for stroke.
- 10:09And support for this comes from many studies,
- 10:11and the reasoning is is broad,
- 10:16including the fact that sleep apnea
- 10:19is strongly associated with Tia,
- 10:21in which no residual deficits remain.
- 10:23And studies have shown that sleep apnea
- 10:27patients with vulvar neuromuscular
- 10:29weakness and continue to have sleep apnea
- 10:32even after recovery from their deficits.
- 10:35Additionally,
- 10:35we see that the presence of OSA is generally
- 10:40indiscriminate of location or stroke subtype.
- 10:45Which suggests that stroke
- 10:47is less likely the cause.
- 10:48And then finally sleep apnea is
- 10:51strongly associated with wake up stroke.
- 10:54So we'll delve more into these
- 10:56mechanisms shortly.
- 10:57And there's also the issue of
- 11:00confounding by hypertension,
- 11:02diabetes, hyperlipidemia and obesity,
- 11:05and which I will also try to
- 11:08address in a bit.
- 11:12So as many of you are aware,
- 11:15our own Clara Yagis Fellowship project was
- 11:18actually a groundbreaking contribution
- 11:20to the domain of sleep apnea and stroke.
- 11:24And was one of the first to
- 11:27prospectively tackle this chicken and
- 11:29egg on sort of causation question?
- 11:32So in his observational cohort study,
- 11:35consecutive patients
- 11:36underwent polysomnography.
- 11:38And subsequent strokes and deaths
- 11:41were verified and recorded.
- 11:44And the diagnosis of OSA,
- 11:46I should mention,
- 11:47was based on HIV 5 or greater,
- 11:50and those without OSA served
- 11:52as the comparators.
- 11:53So what they found was that 68% of
- 11:57enrolled patients had sleep apnea,
- 11:59and that the presence of sleep apnea
- 12:01was associated with significantly
- 12:03higher likelihood of stroke or death,
- 12:06even after they adjusted for confounders.
- 12:10So this is depicted in these
- 12:13two items from their paper here.
- 12:15So on the left you can see
- 12:17the Kaplan Meier curve.
- 12:18And and they also found that the
- 12:20severity of sleep apnea correlated
- 12:22with the likelihood of stroke or death,
- 12:25which you can see on the in
- 12:27the table on the right.
- 12:29You can see that the severity of
- 12:32sleep apnea is stratified with an
- 12:36increasing likelihood of association.
- 12:41And so this table from the same study
- 12:44shows the unadjusted and adjusted
- 12:47hazard ratios for the risk of
- 12:50stroke or death for all covariates.
- 12:52And in the unadjusted analysis,
- 12:54traditional cardiovascular
- 12:55risk factors that we think of,
- 12:58like age, diabetes,
- 12:59and hypertension were all associated with
- 13:01an increased risk of stroke or death.
- 13:04But what I'd like to draw your attention
- 13:06to is actually the bottom of the
- 13:08table where sleep apnea is listed,
- 13:09and the findings here show.
- 13:11Basically a doubling of risk.
- 13:16Of of stroke or death from any cause.
- 13:20And so this remains significant
- 13:21even after adjustment for all
- 13:23of the relevant covariates,
- 13:25which supports the hypothesis that sleep
- 13:28apnea independently increases the risk
- 13:31for stroke and all cause mortality.
- 13:33So this study was the really
- 13:36the first of its kind,
- 13:38but many subsequent studies have
- 13:40reproduced these results and and then
- 13:43gone on to also explore Physiology
- 13:45mechanisms and things like that,
- 13:47which we'll discuss shortly.
- 13:52Um, so under the mentorship of Clara,
- 13:55Yagi, and Kevin Chef.
- 13:56As I mentioned earlier,
- 13:58I studied the relationship
- 13:59between sleep apnea and NIH,
- 14:01specifically during fellowship.
- 14:04And I was really shocked to learn
- 14:06that so little research has
- 14:08been done in this sub domain.
- 14:10I still am sort of surprised but
- 14:12but it's it's a lucky break for me.
- 14:15And so utilizing a large case
- 14:18control data set that included
- 14:203000 acute IH patients and 3000
- 14:23matched controls called the
- 14:25called Eric or the the Eric trial,
- 14:28all of all of the patients in both arms
- 14:32like 9098% of them had completed a Berlin.
- 14:35Questionnaire at the time of
- 14:37study enrollment,
- 14:38so we performed a cross-sectional analysis.
- 14:42And given that patients were enrolled within.
- 14:46Hours of their acute IH event we
- 14:49we made the leap that their ruling
- 14:52questionnaire should be reflective
- 14:54of their pre stroke status since not
- 14:56much time had passed and what we
- 14:59found is highlighted on this slide.
- 15:01So basically you can see that obstructive
- 15:04sleep apnea was significantly
- 15:06more common in those with ICH as
- 15:09compared to matched controls,
- 15:11and that this finding held even
- 15:12after we adjusted for significant
- 15:14covariates and universal.
- 15:16Founders.
- 15:18We also did some special analysis because
- 15:21as many of you are probably thinking,
- 15:24we too were thinking that,
- 15:26you know, hypertension is a really
- 15:29important risk factor for IH,
- 15:31potentially more so even than than
- 15:34schimick stroke and it's also,
- 15:37you know, associated with sleep apnea.
- 15:39So we,
- 15:40we perform some additional analysis
- 15:43to kind of investigate this further.
- 15:45So first of all.
- 15:48There I should mention that there are
- 15:51sort of two bucket locations for IH.
- 15:53There's non low bar,
- 15:55which is usually due to hypertension
- 15:57and then there's low bar which is more
- 15:59commonly due to cerebral amyloid angiopathy.
- 16:02And so we stratified our results
- 16:04by location and found that this
- 16:07that that our initial finding
- 16:10held regardless of location,
- 16:11IE even for low bar strokes
- 16:14which were presumably not due to
- 16:17hypertension as the primary driver.
- 16:19And we also did a hypertension focused
- 16:21analysis which supported our findings.
- 16:27So now that we've gone through
- 16:29a review of sort of evidence
- 16:31linking sleep apnea and stroke,
- 16:33I'd like to spend the the next several
- 16:36minutes talking about proposed mechanisms
- 16:39for how sleep apnea causes stroke.
- 16:44And I realize this is a very busy
- 16:47slide with a lot of words and I'm
- 16:50not going to go through them all.
- 16:52So that's a sort of more
- 16:55to to show you all this,
- 16:57this web of interconnection
- 17:00among risk factors and outcomes.
- 17:04And I will distill it down in the
- 17:08end to to six mechanisms that I'd
- 17:11like to discuss today, but I.
- 17:14I just want to sort of highlight
- 17:16that the physiologic sick quality
- 17:18of of obstructive sleep apnea can
- 17:21lead to these chronic downstream
- 17:24mechanisms of atherosclerosis,
- 17:26including inflammation,
- 17:28hypertension,
- 17:29impaired glucose metabolism
- 17:32and snoring related vibration.
- 17:35And then there are additional
- 17:37physiologic stresses related to sleep
- 17:40apnea which can also predispose
- 17:42to stroke and sort of potentiate.
- 17:44A lot of these other mechanisms,
- 17:46and these include.
- 17:49Acute decreases in cerebral blood flow,
- 17:52a heightened risk of Afib,
- 17:55induced cardio embolic stroke,
- 17:58paradoxical embolism through PFOA,
- 18:00which happens to be much more
- 18:03common in in people with sleep apnea
- 18:05than than the general population.
- 18:07And so we'll spend the next
- 18:09several minutes kind of delving
- 18:10into these mechanisms.
- 18:15So the six mechanisms I'd
- 18:18like to highlight for today's
- 18:20talk are intermittent hypoxia,
- 18:22sympathetic activation,
- 18:24metabolic dysfunction, snoring and
- 18:27vibration induced carotid disease,
- 18:30arrhythmia and cardioembolic stroke,
- 18:32and PFOA and paradoxical embolism.
- 18:34And all of these mechanisms have
- 18:37been extensively studied and and
- 18:40have been shown to have a direct
- 18:42causal effect on the pathway
- 18:43between sleep apnea and stroke.
- 18:49So the first mechanism
- 18:51is intermittent hypoxia.
- 18:53So sleep apnea results in
- 18:56repetitive episodes of hypoxia
- 18:58and the varying severity and
- 19:00duration all throughout the night.
- 19:03This intermittent hypoxia and has
- 19:06been shown to lead to generation
- 19:10of reactive oxygen species,
- 19:12activation of transcription
- 19:14factor and release of cytokine
- 19:17and adhesion molecules.
- 19:19And this ultimately results in
- 19:21endothelial dysfunction and the
- 19:23development of atherosclerosis.
- 19:27So as our barzman and colleagues
- 19:29conducted an interesting and relevant
- 19:32study a few years ago looking at
- 19:35outcome implications of the hypoxic
- 19:37burden and they were able to
- 19:39actually quantify the hypoxic burden.
- 19:41And so, given that that HIV poorly
- 19:45predicts outcomes in sleep apnea,
- 19:48the authors thought that maybe
- 19:50quantification of the actual burden of
- 19:53hypoxia and including sort of depth and
- 19:56duration metrics would more accurately
- 19:59correlate with adverse cardiovascular
- 20:01and cerebrovascular outcomes.
- 20:04So they use two very large cohorts
- 20:07of older adults.
- 20:08They use the outcomes of sleep
- 20:10disorders in older men cohort and
- 20:13the sleep heart health cohort.
- 20:15And they measured hypoxic burden as the
- 20:18respiratory event associated associated
- 20:21area under the desaturation curve.
- 20:25And they compared this curve
- 20:27with the pre event baseline.
- 20:29So in the figure from this paper on
- 20:31the left you can see an example of
- 20:34this calculation with Apneas recorded
- 20:36on the top and oxygen saturation on
- 20:39the bottom with time on the X axis.
- 20:42And the figure on the right is
- 20:45from the same study and it shows
- 20:49adjusted survival for cardiovascular
- 20:51more mortality across.
- 20:53Each severity category of hypoxic burden.
- 20:59And they did a nice accurate rainbow
- 21:04for for different severities.
- 21:06So you can you can see here with the X
- 21:09axis showing time and years and the Y
- 21:12axis I'm showing survival probability
- 21:14that the worse the hypoxic burden,
- 21:17the shorter the survival.
- 21:24The next mechanism by which
- 21:26sleep apnea increases stroke
- 21:27risk is sympathetic activation,
- 21:29and this figure on seeing here on
- 21:32this slide is a nice depiction of a
- 21:36representative cut from nocturnal monitoring.
- 21:39But you can see that there's a spike in
- 21:43sympathetic nerve activity with each apnea,
- 21:46and a corresponding surge in blood
- 21:48pressure at the termination of each apnea.
- 21:51And so this finding is reproducible
- 21:54basically with each apnea.
- 21:56And so it's happening presumably
- 21:59hundreds of times per night and more
- 22:03with increasing severity of sleep apnea.
- 22:06And so this is thought at least in
- 22:08part to be due to a resetting of
- 22:11baroreceptor sensitivity during sleep
- 22:13in patients who have sleep apnea.
- 22:16And this finding is most pronounced
- 22:19in end to sleep. Random sleep.
- 22:24Interestingly, this phenomenon of
- 22:27of increased sympathetic activation
- 22:30can also be seen during wakefulness.
- 22:34And so in an older but excellent
- 22:36Physiology study by summer and colleagues,
- 22:39the authors demonstrated that this
- 22:42sympathetic nerve activity actually
- 22:44persists during wakefulness in
- 22:46people with obstructive sleep apnea.
- 22:49And so here you can see on nerve
- 22:52tone tracings in awake subjects.
- 22:55Normal, meaning no sleep apnea
- 22:58and OSA in patients with sleep
- 23:01apnea and so on the left,
- 23:03you can see that there's lower
- 23:05lower tone than on the right,
- 23:07and this is again an awake patient.
- 23:10And so very clearly,
- 23:12this propensity towards heightened
- 23:15sympathetic activity is actually
- 23:17not just limited to when when these
- 23:21sleep apnea patients are sleeping,
- 23:23but also throughout the day,
- 23:25which increases risk further.
- 23:32So moving on to mechanism 3,
- 23:35I will talk about metabolic
- 23:37dysfunction and I'd specifically
- 23:39like to focus on type 2 diabetes
- 23:42in patients with sleep apnea.
- 23:45So this is relevant because
- 23:47diabetes on its own is actually
- 23:51a potent risk factor for stroke,
- 23:54but OSA is also an independent
- 23:57risk factor for diabetes,
- 23:59even after adjustment for confounders
- 24:02like BMI and weight gain.
- 24:07So this table here on the right is
- 24:09from an observational cohort study
- 24:12where over 1200 veterans in the
- 24:15VA system were evaluated for sleep
- 24:17disordered breathing and surprisingly
- 24:20about half did not have diabetes at
- 24:23the time of the of study enrollment.
- 24:26And so these folks went on to
- 24:28complete a full PSG and the study
- 24:31population was divided into quartiles
- 24:34based on sleep apnea severity and.
- 24:37The main outcome of interest
- 24:40was incident diabetes.
- 24:41So their initial analysis looking at
- 24:44linear Trend showed a significantly
- 24:47increased risk of incident diabetes as
- 24:50a function of severity of sleep apnea.
- 24:53And as you can see here in the table,
- 24:55sleep apnea was associated with diabetes,
- 24:58even after adjustment for age, race,
- 25:02gender, and baseline fasting glucose, BMI,
- 25:06as well as weight gain or change in BMI.
- 25:13And mechanisms through which sleep
- 25:14apnea is implicated in the development
- 25:17of type 2 diabetes include activation
- 25:19of the sympathetic nervous system,
- 25:22which we just discussed because sympathetic
- 25:25nervous system activity plays a key role
- 25:28in regulation of glucose metabolism.
- 25:30Another mechanism is oxidative stress,
- 25:33where sleep apnea may accelerate
- 25:36progression to type 2 diabetes.
- 25:391/3 mechanism is subclinical
- 25:42inflammation and adipocyte derived
- 25:45inflammatory factors like I6,
- 25:48which have been well established
- 25:50mediators in the pathogenesis of diabetes.
- 25:54And systemic inflammation
- 25:55and cytokine production,
- 25:57which are augmented by sleep
- 26:00loss or sleep deficit,
- 26:01can also hasten the progression to diabetes.
- 26:04And then finally,
- 26:05it it seems in in more recent
- 26:08literature that OSA in pregnancy has
- 26:10actually been associated with insulin
- 26:13resistance and gestational diabetes,
- 26:15and this is an area of active research.
- 26:22So the 4th mechanism is one that I I think
- 26:27is kind of fun because it's so intuitive.
- 26:30So snoring and vibration
- 26:33induced carotid disease.
- 26:35So basically the direct effect
- 26:39of of snores on the local carotid
- 26:43artery causing disease.
- 26:45So the effect is not limited
- 26:47just to people with sleep apnea,
- 26:50because anyone who snores is at risk,
- 26:53but since almost everyone
- 26:55with sleep apnea snores,
- 26:56it is irrelevant risk factor.
- 26:59So snores originate in the upper airway.
- 27:02They cause vibration of the
- 27:04pharyngeal wall and local structures
- 27:06which are all near the carotid.
- 27:09And then over time when the
- 27:12carotid endothelium continuously
- 27:13is exposed to this vibration,
- 27:15it can become damaged and atherosclerotic.
- 27:19The evidence to support this
- 27:20comes from a lot of studies,
- 27:22but one particular study of
- 27:25interest by Lee and colleagues is
- 27:28noteworthy because they compared
- 27:30carotid and femoral arteries and
- 27:32snores and found that the carotids,
- 27:35which are directly affected by snoring
- 27:38vibration had higher atherosclerosis
- 27:40burden than the femoral arteries.
- 27:43And as you can see here on the slide,
- 27:45the Audrey ratio was was 10 even
- 27:47after adjustment for relevant.
- 27:49Variables.
- 27:51It's also worth mentioning
- 27:53that in the SAVE trial,
- 27:56they did evaluate self reported
- 27:58snoring patterns and stroke events in
- 28:01high risk patients with sleep apnea,
- 28:03and the authors observed that
- 28:05among the sleep apnea patients,
- 28:07increased frequency,
- 28:09self reported frequency,
- 28:10and loudness of snoring was
- 28:13associated with greater risk
- 28:14of cerebrovascular events.
- 28:22So. Mechanism 5,
- 28:26arrhythmia and cardioembolic stroke on.
- 28:30So we often jump to Afib as the
- 28:32the the main arrhythmia that we
- 28:35associate with sleep apnea and stroke.
- 28:38But sleep apnea is in fact linked
- 28:41with higher risk of many arrhythmias.
- 28:44So Mara and colleagues compared
- 28:46the prevalence of arrhythmias in
- 28:48two samples of participants from
- 28:50the sleep Heart health study,
- 28:52matched for age, sex, BMI,
- 28:57and race and ethnicity.
- 28:59And they found that among
- 29:01those with sleep apnea,
- 29:04which for the purposes of the
- 29:06study was defined as an RDI of
- 29:09greater than or equal to 30,
- 29:11and that there was a significantly
- 29:14higher rate of arrhythmia.
- 29:17And and not just A-fib.
- 29:20So in the figure on the left,
- 29:21you can see various arrhythmias
- 29:23listed on the X axis,
- 29:26with the Gray bars representing the
- 29:28those with sleep apnea and the white
- 29:32bars on patients without sleep apnea.
- 29:35And you can nicely see that all
- 29:38arrhythmias noted have vastly higher
- 29:41prevalence in the sleep apnea cohort.
- 29:44And on the right,
- 29:46you can see a table from the same
- 29:49study and looking at adjusted and
- 29:52unadjusted odds ratios really
- 29:54relating arrhythmia with sleep apnea.
- 29:57Um,
- 29:58so?
- 29:58All arrhythmias are obviously harbingers
- 30:01of poor cardiovascular implications,
- 30:03and so this is relevant outside of Afib,
- 30:06but Afib in particular has a another hit on.
- 30:11And because it can give rise
- 30:13to cardio embolic stroke.
- 30:14And so we've also noted in in
- 30:18various studies when it comes to
- 30:20Afib that there does seem to be
- 30:24a dose response relationship and
- 30:26where by increasing sleep apnea
- 30:29severity is associated with higher
- 30:32prevalence of Ethan and and also
- 30:34we've seen that in people with
- 30:38paroxysmal atrial fibrillation.
- 30:41Um,
- 30:41these paroxysms tend to emerge
- 30:43shortly after an apnea or hypopnea.
- 30:51So I'm moving on to mechanism 6,
- 30:55PFOA, and paradoxical embolism.
- 30:57And PFOA is a risk factor,
- 31:01a well known risk factor
- 31:02for cryptogenic stroke.
- 31:03It's more prevalent among patients with
- 31:07sleep apnea compared to those without.
- 31:10And sort of mechanistically speaking,
- 31:13frequent transient right side pressure
- 31:16increases during the apneas themselves
- 31:19can cause right to left shunting through
- 31:21the PTFO which can lead to stroke.
- 31:24And then also may contribute to nocturnal
- 31:27desaturation in the setting of shunting.
- 31:35So now that we've established that
- 31:37OSA is a risk factor for stroke and
- 31:40explored many of the key mechanisms,
- 31:43I'd like to focus the remainder of the
- 31:45talk and hopefully some discussion about
- 31:49the the on the treatment implications
- 31:52and future directions in this domain.
- 31:59So why is this important?
- 32:00Well, currently acute
- 32:04ischemic stroke treatments,
- 32:06which have gotten quite excellent,
- 32:09are not widely applicable because of narrow,
- 32:12narrow therapeutic windows
- 32:14or accessibility issues.
- 32:16And there are basically no
- 32:19targeted therapies for for
- 32:20hemorrhagic stroke or Tia.
- 32:26So a logical hypothesis then is that PAP
- 32:29therapy will improve stroke outcomes
- 32:32and may reduce recurrent events.
- 32:34And it makes sense because, you know,
- 32:37we just talked about all of these
- 32:40mechanisms which are exacerbated by.
- 32:42Apnea burden.
- 32:43So if we reduce the apnea burden,
- 32:46then perhaps we can improve outcomes.
- 32:49And if this is true,
- 32:50then pat therapy and stroke patients
- 32:53may actually represent a new frontier
- 32:56in treatment which we really need.
- 33:02So first of all,
- 33:03what do we know about PAP and outcomes?
- 33:07And unfortunately, really not too much.
- 33:11You know, I even even went back to the
- 33:13literature as recently as yesterday
- 33:15and there's really not much there,
- 33:17and that's not for lack of effort.
- 33:19And we basically know that PAP
- 33:22use among post stroke patients
- 33:24appears to be associated with
- 33:26a decrease in stroke mortality.
- 33:29But this is largely based on observational
- 33:32studies and examining treatment efficacy,
- 33:35which are really subject to
- 33:37healthy user effect and thus
- 33:40tend to overestimate the effect.
- 33:43And for those unfamiliar with
- 33:44the healthy user effect,
- 33:46this is a phenomenon where patients
- 33:48who are adherent to one therapy,
- 33:51so in this case PAP,
- 33:53may also be adherent to other therapies
- 33:56or may value a healthier life.
- 33:58Style in other ways and other
- 34:01domains which may lead to an
- 34:04overestimate of the therapy of choice,
- 34:07of the effect that the therapy of choice.
- 34:11So we also know that RCT is
- 34:14to date have been small,
- 34:16so typically under 80 patients and
- 34:18have shown mixed results and the mixed
- 34:21results are thought to be multifactorial.
- 34:24But some issues or ideas as to why
- 34:27they're so mixed include variability
- 34:30and path initiation timing.
- 34:33Small sample sizes as well as varied
- 34:37endpoints such as you know, intermediate
- 34:41outcomes of cardiovascular disease,
- 34:43functional recovery, mortality.
- 34:49So what are the guidelines say?
- 34:51Well, before 2021,
- 34:53they didn't say much of anything.
- 34:56And now, as of the 2021
- 35:00update from the American Heart
- 35:03Association and Stroke guidelines,
- 35:05there's actually an entire section
- 35:07dedicated to obstructive sleep apnea,
- 35:09which is exciting and I think important.
- 35:12And so the recommendations are distilled
- 35:14down to the figure I'm showing here,
- 35:17but basically.
- 35:18They're saying that in patients with an
- 35:22escape chemic stroke or Tia and sleep apnea,
- 35:25treatment with positive airway pressure can
- 35:28be beneficial for improved sleep apnea,
- 35:30blood pressure,
- 35:31sleepiness and other apnea related outcomes,
- 35:34which is sort of a bucket of
- 35:38things that I think a lot of
- 35:40investigators are trying to teeth out.
- 35:42And and this is based on moderate
- 35:45evidence per their classification
- 35:48system and they also recommend that
- 35:51in patients with an ischemic stroke
- 35:54or Tia and evaluation for OSA may be
- 35:57considered to diagnose sleep apnea.
- 35:59And this is based on weak evidence
- 36:02by their classification system.
- 36:05And so I think, you know,
- 36:07the takeaways from here are that
- 36:10first of all.
- 36:12You know I think a lot of us believe
- 36:14that we probably should be testing all
- 36:17stroke and Tia patients for sleep apnea.
- 36:20But we can't really provide the
- 36:22evidence to back it up because of all
- 36:24of the reasons that we just discussed
- 36:26and all the issues with them with how
- 36:29do you study this population and and
- 36:31and keep it consistent so that you can
- 36:34actually make a a statement that is
- 36:37of better than weak recommendation.
- 36:42You'll also note that there is
- 36:44no mention of hemorrhagic stroke,
- 36:47and that's because of the large gap in
- 36:49literature which I mentioned earlier.
- 36:55So I'd like to take a few minutes to
- 36:57highlight some of the ongoing trials
- 36:59here at Yale and and around the country.
- 37:02And the first is rise up,
- 37:05which is basically looking at the
- 37:08question of whether PAP improves
- 37:11post stroke outcomes and what the
- 37:14ideal timing of PAP initiation is.
- 37:17And I'll also mention that my
- 37:19Co mentors Kevin, Jeff and Char
- 37:21Yaggi are Co Pi on this project.
- 37:24And so the study is actively enrolling
- 37:27patients with acute ischemic stroke in
- 37:30the hospital and performing ambulatory
- 37:32polysomnography in the acute setting.
- 37:35And just to mention,
- 37:37this technology is actually groundbreaking
- 37:40in and of itself to be able to do
- 37:43basically a full PSG in the hospital,
- 37:46you know,
- 37:47the day or two after an acute stroke
- 37:50definitely has the potential to build
- 37:54new diagnostic pathways for stroke
- 37:57patients if the outcomes warranted.
- 38:00So the study aims to determine if CPAP
- 38:02helps after stroke and if there's a
- 38:05difference in the degree of improvement
- 38:07between timing of acute intervention,
- 38:10which would be one week following stroke
- 38:14or sub acute intervention at one month.
- 38:17And the main outcome is functional
- 38:20recovery at six months following stroke.
- 38:24So the study was initially designed to
- 38:26enroll patients only with ischemic stroke,
- 38:29but we have since expanded it and to
- 38:33enroll an observational arm of patients
- 38:36with interest cerebral hemorrhage and
- 38:39given the strong association that we
- 38:42saw in my previously discussed work and
- 38:45the infrastructure through rise up and
- 38:47the mentorship team to be able to do it.
- 38:54Another study that I would like
- 38:56to mention is sleep smart.
- 38:58So this is a national sleep
- 39:00apnea and stroke treatment trial
- 39:02and Yale is a clinical site,
- 39:04and the aim here is to test whether
- 39:07a treatment of sleep apnea with pack
- 39:11therapy after a recent stroke or a
- 39:14high risk Tia prevents a recurrence of
- 39:17stroke or ACS or all cause mortality.
- 39:22As you can see from the the flow
- 39:25sheet protocol here and patients are
- 39:28screened and then again ambulatory full
- 39:32PSG is performed on the first night.
- 39:35Some patients don't qualify because
- 39:37they don't have sleep apnea,
- 39:38they don't have obstructive sleep apnea
- 39:40or they're limited to central sleep apnea.
- 39:43But if patients have an HIV of
- 39:4710 or greater then they are they
- 39:49they move on to a run in night.
- 39:52Time basically a trial of CPAP
- 39:54for the second night,
- 39:56and then some are not able to tolerate it,
- 39:59in which case they are not randomized.
- 40:01But those who are able to tolerate
- 40:04CPAP for four or more hours are
- 40:07then randomized into either the
- 40:09intervention group or the control group.
- 40:17And then finally,
- 40:18I'll just mention my own pilot study,
- 40:20which I alluded to briefly when
- 40:22I was telling you about rise up.
- 40:24So the evaluating neurological
- 40:26recovery in NIH and sleep apnea
- 40:29study or the enriched SA study,
- 40:32because everything needs a
- 40:34snazzy name to get funded,
- 40:36is a pilot project of mine that's
- 40:39currently funded by the ASM
- 40:42Foundation for one year this year.
- 40:45And I plan to enroll 20 patients
- 40:48with intracerebral hemorrhage in
- 40:50the hospital setting and perform
- 40:52that same wonderful ambulatory
- 40:54polysomnography that I've been telling
- 40:57you about in the acute setting.
- 41:00And my aims are to determine the
- 41:02prevalence of sleep apnea and it's
- 41:05individual physiologic traits and ICH.
- 41:08And to compare functional outcomes,
- 41:12which is the primary outcome,
- 41:14as well as cognitive status,
- 41:16which is the secondary outcome at three
- 41:19months post stroke among patients with
- 41:22among IH patients with and without OSA.
- 41:26And my hypothesis is that those
- 41:28with ICH who have sleep apnea will
- 41:32have worse outcomes at three months
- 41:34compared to those without OSA.
- 41:37And that measures of more severe sleep
- 41:40apnea will correlate with worse outcomes.
- 41:44And so I'm just,
- 41:46you know the sort of the,
- 41:48I think the most exciting aspect of this
- 41:51to me is actually doing the objective
- 41:54gold standard testing because while
- 41:57my previous work was very helpful
- 41:59to sort of highlight an association
- 42:02and one of our limitations was that
- 42:05the Berlin questionnaire was our
- 42:07our sort of diagnostic tool because
- 42:10there were no polysomnograms and so,
- 42:12so it's very exciting to be able to.
- 42:15Actually perform this.
- 42:17And so here you can see on the the plan.
- 42:23So so the patients will have a
- 42:28bunch of baseline assessments
- 42:31including certain metrics for IH,
- 42:35predicted outcomes and mortality as
- 42:40well as cognitive testing and then other
- 42:44and then other testing and then they will.
- 42:47Follow up at one month and then at three
- 42:51months and in this particular study
- 42:54there testing will end at three months.
- 42:56But as Clara mentioned at the beginning,
- 42:59I was just recently funded for KL2
- 43:05award in which we plan to look a lot
- 43:08more at the the phenotypes and and
- 43:12Physiology questions and actually study
- 43:14these patients out to six months time.
- 43:17To see their outcomes.
- 43:24Time. So on this slide,
- 43:26I've highlighted some of the knowledge gaps,
- 43:29many of which we kind of
- 43:31discussed through the talk,
- 43:33but just to lay them out there.
- 43:36They include who will benefit from CPAP?
- 43:39Because we don't want to force anyone
- 43:41to use CPAP if there's no reason to,
- 43:43because patients typically don't like it.
- 43:46And what is the ideal timing of
- 43:48testing and treatment initiation
- 43:50in relation to stroke onset?
- 43:52What dose and what type of PAP is most
- 43:55likely to work and to promote adherence?
- 43:58And what is the role of phenotyping?
- 44:00And is all that holds true for
- 44:03ischemic stroke and Tia true for ICH?
- 44:06And on a personal level,
- 44:08I am trying to tackle a few of these.
- 44:11And you know in in particular,
- 44:14I think that that final question
- 44:16and while it seems like it will
- 44:18be true and it makes physiologic
- 44:20sense that it would be true,
- 44:22it'll be really nice to actually show it.
- 44:24And so, so time,
- 44:26time will tell.
- 44:31So in summary, sleep apnea is independently
- 44:36associated with Tia and stroke,
- 44:40both ischemic and ICH,
- 44:43and the association appears somewhat
- 44:46bidirectional but vastly favors the
- 44:50direction of sleep apnea causing strokes.
- 44:53And mechanisms include intermittent hypoxia,
- 44:57sympathetic activation,
- 44:58metabolic dysfunction,
- 45:00shortened sleep duration,
- 45:02snoring and vibration
- 45:04induced carotid disease,
- 45:05arrhythmia, and PFOA.
- 45:09Diabetes, hypertension and Afib
- 45:10appear to be on the causal pathway
- 45:13between sleep apnea and stroke.
- 45:17Challenges exist and conducting long term
- 45:20randomized controlled trials with CPAP and
- 45:23the benefit is not yet clearly defined.
- 45:26And then finally, I hope I've impressed
- 45:28upon you that there are a lot of new
- 45:30and exciting stroke trials underway.
- 45:31So I think that hopefully if
- 45:34I'm invited back to speak,
- 45:36you know in in several months to
- 45:40years that we will have more to say
- 45:42on these topics and maybe more some
- 45:45more concrete or definitive answers.
- 45:48So with that, I want to just thank
- 45:50everyone for your attention today.
- 45:51It really is a huge honor to talk about
- 45:54this topic with this particular group.
- 45:56And I definitely look forward to hearing
- 45:58questions as well as any thoughts and
- 46:01suggestions that anyone has as I start
- 46:03my own research career here at Yale.
- 46:06And before I take questions,
- 46:08I just want to thank my research mentors,
- 46:10specifically Clara and Kevin.
- 46:12I know it sounds corny,
- 46:14but they really did believe in me
- 46:16and my potential and when I had
- 46:19very little research background.
- 46:21So I'm forever grateful for that.
- 46:24And of course,
- 46:25here's an obligatory picture of
- 46:26my 3 little people who keep me
- 46:29very active and sleep deprived.
- 46:31And thank you again,
- 46:33and I'm happy to take questions.
- 46:37OK. That was wonderful, Jackie.
- 46:40Thank you for that overview and I think
- 46:44please folks, feel free to put in.
- 46:48Uh, some comments or questions
- 46:50in into the chat and and while
- 46:52we wait for folks to do that,
- 46:55I you know, I think.
- 46:57It is having been in,
- 46:59in this domain at least on the ischemic
- 47:00stroke side for a number of years.
- 47:02It really is quite amazing to me
- 47:05the developments that the field of
- 47:08neurology has had just a really
- 47:10in the last five to 10 years
- 47:13with endovascular treatments and
- 47:15medications and thrombolytic therapies.
- 47:18It is, it is just incredible
- 47:21expanding the hours of of therapy
- 47:24that many of these patients can get.
- 47:28Um treatments,
- 47:29but they're still is I think a large
- 47:34group of patients who have I would
- 47:36say probably particularly Jackie on
- 47:39on on the ICH side that have really
- 47:42profound functional and and cognitive
- 47:45impairment after their stroke.
- 47:47And so I think we're where this work
- 47:50is particularly promising and the
- 47:52work that you're doing in ICH is,
- 47:55is the idea that something that can be
- 47:58applied really to the majority of people who.
- 48:00Who have had these strokes given the
- 48:03prevalence estimates you're finding
- 48:04that can be continued, you know,
- 48:06started in the acute setting,
- 48:07potentially continued to over
- 48:09rehab and has the potential to to
- 48:13perhaps improve functional recovery
- 48:15is is really I think a sort of
- 48:19a novel line of investigation.
- 48:22The.
- 48:22You know, a couple of specific questions.
- 48:25One is I think another another
- 48:29sort of rationale for embarking
- 48:31on this investigation given what
- 48:34we've observed on the ischemic
- 48:36stroke side is that there's a lot
- 48:39of overlap mechanistically between
- 48:41aschematic stroke and ICH in terms
- 48:44of atherosclerosis mechanisms.
- 48:46And I think that played a role
- 48:48into the analytic strategy that
- 48:50you engaged in on that original
- 48:52cross section looking at.
- 48:54Sort of a layered analysis with hypertension.
- 48:56I wonder if you might make might
- 48:58speak a little bit more about,
- 48:59about that and the challenges of
- 49:01looking at that,
- 49:01some of those founding factors.
- 49:03Yeah. And yeah, no, it's definitely.
- 49:06I I agree with all that you said and I
- 49:08think that you're right that it really
- 49:11all comes back to sort of small vessel
- 49:13ischemic disease which is not intuitive
- 49:15and and and certainly not something
- 49:19that I would have thought was at all.
- 49:22You know I think when when internist think
- 49:25about hemorrhagic stroke or particularly
- 49:27you know interest cerebral hemorrhage
- 49:29as a stroke subtype we think about
- 49:31aneurysm rupture you know brain tumor you
- 49:34know I think it it takes a little bit.
- 49:37On. More education, I think,
- 49:41than we get in our basic internal medicine
- 49:44training to really understand the nuances,
- 49:47but it's it's really fascinating
- 49:49to see all you know it all of the.
- 49:53The similarities in pathophysiology between
- 49:56a schematic stroke and hemorrhagic stroke,
- 50:00or particularly IC H and so I think.
- 50:04To your point,
- 50:05it really does sort of lend itself.
- 50:07It's sort of shocking when you think
- 50:10about it that that this hasn't been
- 50:13done and that actually so if you,
- 50:15you know for a lot of studies that have,
- 50:16you know,
- 50:17brain hemorrhage was excluded
- 50:19and then I think that.
- 50:22As far as the sort of process of teasing
- 50:25it out since hypertension is such.
- 50:31Sort of a main risk factor for IC H and we
- 50:35spend a lot of time trying to figure out.
- 50:39You know how,
- 50:40how it's impact might not be
- 50:43over represented,
- 50:44but also not wanting to completely
- 50:46eliminate it because we know that it has
- 50:48a complex relationship with sleep apnea.
- 50:50And so as you as you mentioned
- 50:53we did several analysis.
- 50:55It's also worth noting that the
- 50:58Berlin questionnaire includes
- 50:59hypertension as one of the main
- 51:01components of the questionnaire itself,
- 51:03and so on.
- 51:06What we ended,
- 51:06we did one analysis actually
- 51:08where we just removed hypertension
- 51:09from the Berlin questionnaires.
- 51:11We rescored them and then ran the
- 51:14analysis because we we wanted to sort of,
- 51:16you know,
- 51:17play a worst case scenario for hypertension,
- 51:19best case scenario for the connection and
- 51:22it's still remained a significant finding.
- 51:25And so I think that the the challenge
- 51:27for me and I think for a lot of us is
- 51:29that there is no standard approach
- 51:30to this and you want to make sure
- 51:33that what you're finding makes
- 51:34physiologic sense and is plausible.
- 51:36Um,
- 51:37but but there's no manual for how to do it.
- 51:40Or or you know,
- 51:41which which analysis is going
- 51:42to is going to say, OK, see,
- 51:44this is definitely accurate,
- 51:45but I think we can safely say that
- 51:47we're really on to something here,
- 51:48even when we exclude hypertension.
- 51:51OK, so there's a several
- 51:54questions in the chat.
- 51:56The first is from Doctor Hoffman,
- 51:59which is an interesting question.
- 52:01So any concerns about increased
- 52:02intercranial pressure with CPAP
- 52:04in an acute stroke setting?
- 52:07So I I've had the same,
- 52:09I've had the same thought.
- 52:10I I think the answer is that it's
- 52:14probably not high enough pressure
- 52:16and we're and we're not dealing.
- 52:19I I don't actually know
- 52:20exactly how to answer that.
- 52:21I think it's an excellent question
- 52:22and I think that the general,
- 52:24the consensus is that no.
- 52:28That the pressures are
- 52:29probably not high enough,
- 52:30but I can't say that this has
- 52:33actually been studied and to to my
- 52:35knowledge I'm not sure if if, Kevin,
- 52:38I see you're you're on the call or if
- 52:40anyone else has an answer to this.
- 52:43And I mean, it's a,
- 52:44it's a good question,
- 52:45but it turns out actually ICP is
- 52:48virtually never important Q stroke.
- 52:51And it just it just in terms of
- 52:53prevalence it's only in the hyper
- 52:55acute setting and the most sort
- 52:57of you know in the most severe or
- 52:59largest infarcts or hemorrhages that
- 53:00ICP ends up being an issue and and
- 53:02those patients either just going to
- 53:04be very small population or going to
- 53:06be excluded from all these studies.
- 53:09It would be an exception
- 53:10in all the other patients that just,
- 53:11it turns out not to matter
- 53:13at all. OK, thanks. That makes sense.
- 53:15So basically if it if it is a concern,
- 53:17the patients probably intubated anyway
- 53:19and by the time if they are able to be
- 53:23extubated and potentially use CPAP,
- 53:25it's it's probably not an issue anymore?
- 53:30There's another question, Jackie.
- 53:31And so based on your observations,
- 53:34when would you consider an ideal
- 53:36time to start PAP therapy in,
- 53:38in post stroke patients?
- 53:40So I think that's sort of
- 53:41the $1,000,000 question.
- 53:42And I think probably 1 component,
- 53:45which I didn't speak much about today
- 53:47but is vitally important, is adherence.
- 53:50I think you want to find the best
- 53:53balance on like when is it most tolerant,
- 53:55like when will the patient tolerate it?
- 53:58Because you, you know,
- 53:59even if there were some
- 54:00marginal benefit to starting it,
- 54:01like the day they come in for their stroke,
- 54:04say, you know, if they're totally
- 54:07overwhelmed by everything that's
- 54:08going on or they have some new.
- 54:10Um, functional limitation that they're
- 54:12aware of and they're, you know,
- 54:14there's a lot of sort of like.
- 54:16You know emotional, physical,
- 54:18cognitive components here.
- 54:20And so I think that like my overall
- 54:22answer is that the best time is when
- 54:25they'll use it if we think it's helpful,
- 54:28which I think the majority of us do.
- 54:30And that being said,
- 54:31I think that's a huge area of ongoing study.
- 54:35I mean particularly as far as its impact
- 54:37on outcomes what you know what timing
- 54:40is ideal for for outcomes and and I
- 54:42will put a plug in that we're we're
- 54:45also for rise up one of the things that I.
- 54:47I'm excited to be a part of is
- 54:49working on the qualitative component,
- 54:51kind of talking to people about
- 54:54their experiences in the study,
- 54:56with the path,
- 54:57with their stroke and kind of
- 55:00hearing a little bit more about.
- 55:03What?
- 55:04Like,
- 55:04what plays into that because
- 55:05they think adherence is key?
- 55:09I think those are all great points.
- 55:10I would just add you know we're
- 55:12a little bit further ahead on the
- 55:15ischemic stroke side than the ICH side
- 55:16at looking at the this timing issue.
- 55:18And I think some of the preliminary
- 55:22studies that have been done have
- 55:25suggested that the earlier the initiation
- 55:28of PAP therapy may be of theoretical
- 55:31benefit and the acute stroke setting
- 55:34to a brain and and and an ischemic
- 55:36penumbra of the brain that may be
- 55:39particularly susceptible to some of the.
- 55:41Physiologic sequelae of sleep apnea
- 55:44and that was that's sort of the.
- 55:46But at the same time to Jackie's point you,
- 55:48you have you have patients who
- 55:50are acutely stroked and might have
- 55:52difficulty adhering to or tolerating so.
- 55:55So I think that that time point is
- 55:57needs to needs to be worked out
- 55:59but the thing about you know having
- 56:01this as a complementary acute stroke
- 56:04therapy is I think very appealing.
- 56:07Umm.
- 56:10Let's see here.
- 56:12So Kevin, do you want to
- 56:14weigh in with your question?
- 56:15I'm just curious, Jackie,
- 56:16there's great, great talk.
- 56:18I may have asked you this before
- 56:20in the past, but good to just,
- 56:22let's just forecast the future of touch,
- 56:24let's say rise up and sleep,
- 56:25smarter neutral studies.
- 56:26How are we going to think about
- 56:29interpreting those findings
- 56:30and what's next for,
- 56:31what does that mean for sleep
- 56:33and also PAP and and stroke?
- 56:36Yeah, I know. I mean, I think that's
- 56:38like we have to kind of prepare that.
- 56:40That's probably going to happen, right?
- 56:41And then what do we do?
- 56:43What does it mean?
- 56:44It's sort of like all the sepsis
- 56:47and steroid trials.
- 56:48I think I'm going to say that it
- 56:50will probably then come down to the whole,
- 56:52I didn't talk too much about
- 56:54the phenotyping today.
- 56:55I think maybe for another talk I would
- 56:57love to to do that when I have some data.
- 56:59But I think that it may come down to an
- 57:04issue of sort of like of means versus sub
- 57:08you know subgroups and that there there
- 57:12may be certain sleep apnea phenotypes.
- 57:17Or or maybe sort of cardiometabolic
- 57:19phenotypes that do respond and and others
- 57:23who don't who kind of dilute the pool.
- 57:26And so, you know,
- 57:26it's always, it's tricky.
- 57:29It's it's tricky when it happens,
- 57:31but I I don't think the game
- 57:32is over and I do.
- 57:33I think we all kind of
- 57:34firmly believe that it.
- 57:35You know if sleep apnea
- 57:37causes is a cause for stroke,
- 57:39how can treating the sleep apnea with the
- 57:42world's most effective treatment not?
- 57:44You know,
- 57:45actually help them in some way or at least
- 57:47prevent recurrent strokes or cognitive,
- 57:49you know,
- 57:51cause, you know,
- 57:52improve cognition and things like that.
- 57:56Very good. Thank you very much
- 57:57for excellent presentation and
- 57:59and the great questions everyone.
- 58:00I think we're going to wrap up now.
- 58:02There's another conference
- 58:04immediately following this.
- 58:05Have a great rest of your week,
- 58:06everyone. Thanks everyone.