Hormones, Heroes & Hucksters: Chelsea Clinton in Conversation with Dr. Randi Hutter Epstein

July 06, 2020

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September 27, 2018

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00:00Afternoon everybody.
00:04Welcome to a conversation with Randy
00:05Hunter Epstein and Chelsea Clinton.
00:07My name is Anna Reesman.
00:08I run the program for Humanities
00:10in medicine here at Yale Medical
00:12School and I'm thrilled to be able
00:14to put on the special event today,
00:16which is the first of our lecture series.
00:20I will. Tell you a little bit about Randy
00:25and Chelsea and then turn it over to
00:27them to converse and we will listen it
00:30so Randi Hutter Epstein is a medical writer.
00:33A lecture at Yale English Department,
00:34an adjunct professor at
00:36Columbia School of journalism,
00:37and most importantly,
00:38writer in residence here
00:40at IU Medical School.
00:41She has worked as a medical writer for
00:43the London Bureau of the AP was the
00:46London Bureau chief of Physicians Weekly.
00:48Her articles have appeared in many,
00:50many publications,
00:51including the New York Times,
00:52the Washington Post, the Daily Telegraph,
00:54the Guardian, among many,
00:56many other newspapers and magazines.
00:58Randy's first book was entitled,
00:59Get Me Out a history of childbirth from
01:03the garden of Eden to the sperm bank.
01:05In this book she takes the
01:07reader through history,
01:08fads,
01:09and fables and to the fringe of
01:11science were audacious researchers
01:12have gone to extreme measures to
01:14get healthy babies out of mothers.
01:17Her most recent book,
01:18published this summer,
01:19is entitled aroused the history of hormones
01:21and how they control just about everything.
01:24The book tackles the strange
01:25science of hormones and the age old
01:28quest control them for subjects,
01:29and you'll hear a lot more about
01:31this range from leading scientists
01:33who make life changing discoveries
01:35about hormone imbalances.
01:36To Charlatans used those discoveries
01:39to peddle false remedies.
01:41Randy are intra bachelors degree
01:43from the University of Pennsylvania.
01:45In Ms from the Columbia School of
01:47journalism and MD from the Yale
01:49School of Medicine and an MPH from
01:52the Columbia School of Public Health.
01:54Welcome Randy.
02:04Chelsea Clinton is vice chair
02:06of the Clinton Foundation,
02:07where she helps create
02:09opportunities for people,
02:10families and communities to
02:11build better futures.
02:12She is an advocate for expanding
02:14access to early childhood education
02:16and providing the next generation of
02:19young leaders with resources they
02:21need to turn their ideas into action.
02:24She is especially interested
02:25in empowering girls and women,
02:27which seems especially appropriate
02:30to mention today.
02:32Chelsea currently teaches at
02:33Columbia's Mailman School of public
02:35health and previously worked at
02:37McKinsey and Company an Ave Capitol.
02:39She holds a BA from Stanford and MPH
02:41from Columbia School of public health
02:43and both in Master of philosophy
02:45and a doctorate and international
02:47relations from Oxford University.
02:49Chelsea is the author of four
02:51books with Debbie Street.
02:53Are she coauthored governing global health?
02:55Who runs the world and why?
02:57Which examines the role of public
02:59private partnerships in combating the
03:01spread of infectious diseases like aids.
03:03And reducing pervasive chronic
03:05health problems like malnutrition.
03:06She authored a book for readers age
03:0910 to 14 called it's your world.
03:12Get informed, get inspired and get going.
03:15And she's also written two picture
03:18books called she persisted 13 American
03:20women who changed the world and the
03:23companion she persisted around the world.
03:25These introduce tiny feminists,
03:27many activists and little kids who
03:29are ready to take on the world to
03:3113 inspirational women who never
03:33took no for an answer and who
03:35always inevitably and without fail,
03:36persisted.
03:40Thank you.
03:44Thank you.
03:48And for that introduction, thank
03:50you to yell into the medical school,
03:53in particular for hosting us today.
03:55I always love the chance to
03:57talk with my good friend Randy.
04:00Always learn a lot from her
04:02and I think as the conversation
04:04progresses this afternoon,
04:06you'll understand why.
04:09Although I was lucky enough to
04:11get an advance copy of aroused,
04:13I reread it over last couple of days
04:16in anticipation of our time together
04:19here and just was again reminded both
04:21by how much kind of we've learned
04:24about our hormones over last century
04:26and how much we still don't know.
04:29So I hope that we can both pro kind of
04:32what we know and what we don't here today.
04:36I will shamelessly exploit my position
04:38in this chair to ask questions.
04:40After about 25 minutes and then we'll
04:42open it up to all of you to ask whatever
04:45questions you may have a Randy,
04:47or if you want to ask me a question,
04:49I'm happy to at least entertain.
04:51It will probably.
04:54But to arouse you know one of the things
04:57ready that we've talked a lot about in
05:00the context of aroused and your other
05:02work is that medicine and Health Sciences
05:04broadly don't exist in isolation,
05:06kind of, from their broader cultural,
05:08social and political contexts.
05:09And one of the things I think you do really
05:13excellent job of an aroused is teasing out,
05:15particularly how culture has influenced
05:17and of what questions were asked,
05:19what research was done,
05:20and also what wasn't done.
05:22Kind of in the city of hormones.
05:24Could you talk a little bit?
05:26About that,
05:27sure, and I think that's the
05:28way I framed the book too.
05:30I don't cover every hormone.
05:31There's alot or everything that's going on,
05:33but I like to look at each
05:35decade or each time period.
05:37Think what does this say about the culture?
05:39Not so much.
05:40What does this say about in advance?
05:42But what does this say about what's
05:44going on so the 1920s, for instance,
05:461920s into the early 1930s?
05:47We were very curious.
05:49What are the ovaries secrete ING?
05:50What are the testes secrete ING
05:52it was around the time that
05:54we then isolated testosterone.
05:55The 1930s and R.
05:56Focus both from a scientific perspective
05:59but also pushed by consumers was what
06:01can we do with these male hormones?
06:03What could testicles do?
06:04Do we need extra ones from animals
06:07so at the same time when there were
06:09doctors and scientists navigating,
06:11I think a lot of their research
06:14then was shaped was how can we
06:16distinguish what makes a man a man
06:19and what makes a woman a woman?
06:21So these sex hormones then became
06:23estrogen equals woman test testosterone
06:25equals male and in some ways.
06:27Made a divide that doesn't that that we
06:30learned quickly after doesn't exist,
06:32but that Binary has stuck with
06:34us and then again in the 1950s.
06:37I talk about the explosion of the
06:39youth of human growth hormone from
06:41pituitary glands before we had synthetic.
06:43What drove it?
06:44It wasn't just doctors saying I'm going
06:47to dump all this growth hormone on kids,
06:50but it was people reading magazines.
06:52That said,
06:52You're short boys are doomed never to marry,
06:55never to get hired.
06:56They're going to have something we coined
06:59the term inferiority complex came out.
07:01Of this growth hormone and the potential
07:04that it could help young boys,
07:06so I think at each generation we see
07:08this mix of what scientists are doing,
07:11what doctors believe in,
07:13but also how were all swayed by the
07:16culture and what patients are demanding
07:18and what their fears are of the time.
07:21and
07:21I think we. All probably
07:25intuitively understand just.
07:28I would submit from the.
07:30Historical moment we're living
07:32through today something that you
07:34also show to be true kind of in.
07:37In in medicine.
07:38Which is that kind of in
07:41moments of uncertainty,
07:42particularly when we think about our health,
07:45or arguably, even more potently,
07:47our Children's Health were vulnerable
07:50to textures and fraudsters.
07:52An I think you do a tremendous job above.
07:55Kind of illuminating how that
07:57isn't something that only
07:59happened like in yesteryear.
08:01It's something that's happening today.
08:03Could you talk a little bit about why,
08:06particularly in the field of
08:09hormones you think?
08:11Kind of the cons have been so successful
08:14because we love certainty.
08:15I mean everybody.
08:16That's a doctor out there and anyone
08:18that's going to be a doctor soon knows
08:21that you're taught in medical school.
08:23Nothing is 100% sure everything's
08:24side affects life has a side effect.
08:27Everything is a side effect.
08:28You can never say to a patient.
08:31This is I'm going to make you happier.
08:33I'm going to make you better,
08:35but and this is what I
08:37learned from my research,
08:39I know how to be a really Good Charlotte him.
08:42And I have advice for anyone out there
08:44and you know this is not how I thought.
08:48I didn't think it was only
08:50have to work nine to five.
08:52Snake oil you only afterwards debating.
08:54Yeah only work nine to
08:56five you never take call.
08:58Don't take insurance and
08:59you can charge a lot. But
09:02here's the trick
09:03you see your
09:04soul, you right you have to be sure you
09:08have to take some by the hand and say.
09:11Your doctors are too worried.
09:13And with all these numbers and
09:15facts and data I care about,
09:18you don't listen to those reports
09:20that say 70% likelier this statistic.
09:23I'm going to tell you what to eat,
09:26what supplement to take, and don't worry.
09:29It's not a pharmaceutical scary drug.
09:31It's a really health supplement.
09:33Healthy supplement.
09:34An why you know.
09:36It's so healthy because,
09:37unlike the stuff that goes,
09:39gets approved from the FDA.
09:41That has to have a warning label in it.
09:45Supplements don't have to have the
09:47warning label an have all those things so
09:49actually from your patient's point of view,
09:52if there's not a warning label
09:54that says side effects may include.
09:57The notion could be Oh well,
09:59then it's 100% hell.
10:00So I think we we can't help,
10:03but it's like a human thing.
10:05We want control an if you notice,
10:07the title is how they control us, not people.
10:10They say you're going to tell us
10:12how we can control our hormones.
10:14Not yet,
10:15but maybe I'm just come back 50 years.
10:17We will.
10:18But people want surety and they want
10:20someone to hold their hand and say,
10:22here's exactly what you have to do so
10:25we can laugh about stuff that went
10:27on in the 1920s when men were told,
10:30you know.
10:30Have a vast ectomy it's going
10:32to boost your libido haha.
10:34Can't believe they fell for that,
10:35but you can click on Amazon
10:37and don't do it now.
10:39'cause I'll feel bad if you
10:40start going on the Internet now,
10:42but you can buy an oxytocin nasal spray
10:44for only for under $50.00 for $48.00.
10:47It could just be water,
10:48it could be air but it is promoted to
10:51spray around yourself and the person
10:53next to you will want to bond with you.
10:56So.
10:57You know, but it sounds funny,
10:59but if you go,
11:01if you if you go on line,
11:03these things are being sold and when
11:06we were talking earlier today though,
11:08you kind of had a an update
11:10to the story of one of the.
11:13Doctors, who has been promoting oxytocin
11:15as this kind of magical elixir to solve
11:18any and all challenges in ones life.
11:21and I will say reading it not only is
11:23someone who cares deeply about public health,
11:26but also as a mother.
11:30This woman, you Randy kind of orients the
11:33oxytocin chapter around who is Obi Wan has
11:36been experimenting on her own children,
11:39so not only did this clearly horrify me
11:42for all of the kind of evident reasons,
11:45from a kind of a public health in a
11:49research integrity perspective like.
11:52She clearly had sold the Contax herself.
11:56Which that is it? Pretty extraordinary.
12:01Dynamic and yet she may not be
12:03getting away with it, so Randy
12:05could you kind of give the other or yeah,
12:08the update is so in the book I write about
12:11a health clinic that I visited a woman
12:13who left her job is an OBGYN at UCLA and
12:17opened up a health clinic on Wilshire Blvd.
12:19And you walk through her
12:21shop to get it's beautiful.
12:22It looks like a spot and you walk
12:24through her shop where she sells her
12:27own brand of adrenal booster,
12:28prostate booster.
12:29All these supplements In addition
12:31to oxy Towson.
12:32Yeah, I think her oxytocin,
12:34which she gave me one.
12:35I think it was a piece of candy.
12:37It just tasted like sugar.
12:39I don't think anything gotten me but she did.
12:41She took one,
12:42she gave me when she gave her
12:43sister went to get her publicist
12:45one and then they all said I feel
12:47like we're bonding and she said I
12:50do too and we all huddled closer.
12:53And I didn't feel anything.
12:57But so I I felt a little a little guilty
13:00making her look sort of silly in my chapter,
13:03though I did do a lot of research and it
13:07did bother me that she is charging people a
13:10fortune for some of this cockamamie stuff.
13:13And calling herself an Ender
13:15Chronologist just because she sells
13:17hormone supplements, but I felt.
13:21I felt justified a few days ago.
13:23Actually was September 13th.
13:25She made it into People magazine for missing
13:27a uterine cancer for having patient an.
13:30If she missed another cancer as well.
13:32She is right now I'm not allowed
13:34to call herself an OBGYN.
13:36She certainly not allowed to
13:38call herself an endocrinologist,
13:39'cause you can't if you've never been
13:41board certified or done endocrinology.
13:43Who knew?
13:46An and she's basically being.
13:48She's on parole.
13:49She might have her license taken away.
13:51Now. Her response.
13:52I thought that was bad enough,
13:55like if I were her,
13:56which I wouldn't be her.
13:58But if I were her I would have gone on
14:02vacation or just let this fade away.
14:04But she actually had a rebuttal,
14:06which I didn't tell you about.
14:09We're talking.
14:09Her rebuttal was basically I am offering
14:12patients things that the medical
14:14community doesn't appreciate yet.
14:15I represent the future of Medicine.
14:18And so many of my patients have done well,
14:21so she's just digging in and standing
14:23her ground for an I think she has
14:26a lot of believers out there like
14:28don't believe established medicine
14:30there too slow there just so stuck
14:33on this evidence based stuff.
14:35But I've got a big business and
14:37a lot of my patients love me.
14:40Suzanne Somers.
14:40Sarah Ferguson.
14:41She's got a lot of testimonies.
14:43An as we know now and then and his
14:46doctors practicing testimonials
14:47really sway public perception.
14:50You're one of the I think,
14:53heartening elements of that story is
14:56that there is some accountability,
14:59maybe too late, arguably,
15:01but there is some accountability.
15:03And yet you're.
15:04Your book is full of kind of
15:07stories of accountability that came
15:09kind of decades after the fact.
15:12And when you first started working
15:14on this, I was.
15:16So struck a few years ago we were
15:18having a conversation by how much
15:21kind of you were teaching me around
15:24the story of human growth hormone and
15:27also how much you were teaching me around.
15:30Kind of the science of fertility,
15:32which was a kind of outgrowth of your.
15:36Book Get Me Out.
15:37One of the great titles ever of a book.
15:41An so I wonder if you could just
15:43share a little bit about what
15:45surprised you the most,
15:47and writing this book and kind
15:48of what you learned the most
15:50from in writing aroused.
15:53Well, a few things.
15:56One of the things I don't think I
15:58don't know if I wanna say surprise no,
16:01I will say surprised the power of the
16:03individual person to do something.
16:04So not just doctors.
16:06I mean there's some amazing scientists.
16:07I don't just write about cockamamie stuff,
16:09I write and I someone asked me if I
16:12intentionally sought after female
16:13scientist that did wonderful things.
16:15I didn't intentionally do it.
16:16We're probably on some subconscious thing.
16:18I read about them like you need a
16:20voice like you need to be known.
16:23So I do highlight some amazing
16:24female scientists,
16:25especially in the 1930s and 40s that had to.
16:28Really work hard to get their name be heard,
16:31but that wasn't surprising.
16:32One of the stories that surprised me
16:35was a mom in Long Island who was told
16:37that her son needed growth hormone.
16:39I won't get into all the details 'cause
16:41I could go on forever about this story,
16:44but it was the 1960s where
16:46people were worried about.
16:47Can we use this new growth hormone?
16:49'cause my son might be way too short.
16:51It was just isolated.
16:53This one brought her son
16:54to the doctor and she said,
16:56you know we've tried thyroid which was.
16:58Tried for short kids and this doctor said
17:00other people will give him testosterone.
17:02I'm not going to try that 'cause
17:05it doesn't work. But we could try.
17:07Growth hormone was from Pituitaries,
17:08then we didn't have synthetic.
17:10We could try growth hormone and the
17:12mom was like sure you know will
17:14try this and so,
17:15but you're going to have to collect your own.
17:17You're going to have if you can bring me
17:20pituitary zan I now know Barbara Balaban.
17:22This mom,
17:23who she thinks now in retrospect the
17:25Doctor was instead of just saying
17:26forget about it. We can help you.
17:28The doctor was more like you get your
17:31own pituitaries we can isolate the
17:33growth hormone and treat your son.
17:35Barbara Balaban was just not just.
17:37She was a mom in Long Island who,
17:40within three months became one of
17:43the nation's leading collectors
17:44of pituitary glands,
17:46third only to the VA in the NIH.
17:50And I spoke to doctor Bob Blizzard
17:52who is with who is on the medical
17:55side collecting them.
17:56And he did say we were going around
17:58asking people to donate pituitary
18:00glands pathologists and they would say,
18:02sorry, we've already promised Balaban.
18:04Sorry, we've already promised Balaban,
18:05and he was like, what's a Balaban?
18:07And he ends up at her door in Great
18:10Neck Long Island, saying, like, who are you?
18:13And she had?
18:14She kept him in nail Polish remover,
18:16acetone in jars,
18:17in her laundry room,
18:18and eventually she joined forces.
18:21Because Bob Blizzard,
18:21who died recently and was a leading
18:23figure in pediatric endocrinology,
18:25sore right away that he did not want growth
18:28hormone only to be available to those,
18:30either with the moxy or the money to get it.
18:33So he asked her to join forces and
18:36said We'll always have enough for
18:38your son as long as we share it
18:40so that it could be shared evenly.
18:43So she did. So then she became
18:45part of this government task force,
18:47but it's amazing to me what
18:49one woman can just do.
18:51She felt she needed to treat her son.
18:53I think a lot of moms probably
18:55would have felt the same way.
18:57Hertrich If anyone wants to know and
18:59my mom in the audience will love this.
19:02She said the reason why she became
19:03one of the leading national
19:05pituitary gland collectors is she
19:07wrote a handwritten thank you note
19:09to every single person that
19:10gave her a pituitary.
19:13Send so that will be one takeaway lesson.
19:16Handwritten thank you notes.
19:17I love handwritten, thank you know. So I'm
19:19going to take away that Randy can
19:21teach you how to be a charlatan and
19:23that I am teach my children how to
19:26write handwritten thank you notes.
19:27Our key takeaways from today.
19:31So Randy, one of the things that
19:33kind of you alluded to earlier,
19:35but I know you feel kind of passionately
19:38about bringing more kind of into the light,
19:40is how gender was constructed
19:42at a particular moment in time.
19:44And arguably we've been kind of
19:46dealing with the consequences
19:48of that kind of since then,
19:50and are still trying to kind of
19:52move away from kind of this one
19:54decision that was made, you know,
19:56a handful of decades ago.
19:58Could you talk a bit about?
20:01Kind of why there was that decision
20:02to kind of quantify gender is this
20:05idea and what the consequences
20:06have been. Yeah, I mean I go back to.
20:09I mean, we think now transgender
20:11people have a trans gender
20:12identity and I do right about that.
20:15But really, the concept of gender.
20:16It really was only used in
20:18grammar up until the 1950s.
20:20And then it Hoppin Johns Hopkins.
20:21There was someone named John
20:23money very controversial figure,
20:24but he was the one that said it's not just
20:27whether you have an over your testes.
20:29It's not just XX or XY.
20:31It's your identity which
20:33is made up of a whole.
20:34How you, how you consider yourself
20:36what your chromosomes are,
20:38what you're going ads are,
20:39and he actually coined this term.
20:41Gender to be used so it was something
20:43that we think of as always been around,
20:46but before then we said what's
20:48your sex not what's your gender.
20:50And again,
20:51there's been I've reached out to a lot
20:53of people in the Intersex community.
20:55People in the transgender community?
20:57Some of them, I think,
20:58felt that I wasn't angry enough in my
21:01chapter of intersects that I write.
21:03Because I don't blame,
21:04I don't know 100% blame the doctors
21:07for what they did I don't think the
21:09doctors in the 1950s were out to say
21:12how can we manipulate people and how
21:14can we make this decision that we
21:17don't care what's going to happen.
21:19I think there was this strong
21:21feeling in the 1950s and 60s of
21:23these children will be better off
21:25looking clearly masculine or looking
21:27clearly what we think is feminine.
21:29I write about a woman in my book
21:32who was unfortunately born in 1956,
21:34right at that peak.
21:36Of learning what we thought
21:37about gender and the theory then,
21:40was that up until 18 months,
21:42gender was malleable,
21:43so you were born a blank slate.
21:46We weren't thinking prenatal influences
21:48and that you had up until that 18
21:51month cutoff to make a decision.
21:53All you had to do was like switch
21:55trucks to dolls and change
21:57pants to dresses and this woman.
22:00What did happen with her was that she
22:02was born with ambiguous genitalia,
22:05but they said to her.
22:07They said to the mom.
22:09You have a son though he has abnormal
22:11genitalia. You have a son.
22:13Then there were some other issues.
22:14They brought him back to the
22:16doctor at 17 months.
22:17So before that cutoff and then the
22:20doctor said actually made a mistake.
22:21You have a daughter so just sign
22:23here and she showed me all her
22:25medical records in the form and
22:27there's just one form.
22:29That said, I agree to change Brian to Bonnie.
22:31Mom signed your name,
22:32throw out all the pictures,
22:34get rid of his man clothes,
22:36put in girl closed dolls and don't worry,
22:38it's before the 18 month cutoff.
22:40So as you can imagine,
22:42she had a very troubled upbringing
22:44and now she's very involved
22:45in the Intersex community,
22:47and she's very angry because in those
22:49days also she had surgery done right away.
22:52The doctor said I'm going
22:54to do exploratory surgery.
22:55He came out and said, We realized
22:57that she had an enlarged clitoris.
23:00We amputated all of it.
23:01We also realized that she's a hermaphrodite.
23:04She has some testes and ovaries
23:06and they wrote that in her
23:08chart the languages changed.
23:09Since then an I think.
23:11We, but again,
23:12I don't think these doctors were
23:14doing this because they were evil
23:16and trying to figure out we're
23:18going to just freak these kids out.
23:20They were doing what they
23:21thought of the time that.
23:23Let's try to make these kids feel normal.
23:25It was the 50s and 60s.
23:27You wanted to feel like a full
23:29woman or a full man and you wanted
23:31to raise your kids that way.
23:33We are now realizing that this should
23:35not be emergency emergency surgery.
23:37The surgery that was done is
23:39really considered cosmetic.
23:39It shouldn't be done anymore.
23:42Apparently it still is,
23:43but there is this voice going out to say.
23:46You can tell you can explain to
23:48parents slowly if your child is
23:50born with ambiguous genitalia.
23:52There's many syndromes.
23:53It's a big balloon umbrella term
23:55for many different elements in
23:56the Doctor can explain to exactly
23:58what it is an nothing.
24:00No cosmetic surgery needs to
24:01be done right at birth,
24:03so and there is an activist community.
24:05Again,
24:05it's coming from the patients themselves
24:08that are figuring out the language
24:10we talked a lot about language and
24:12words and the importance of words.
24:14There,
24:14they've driven this.
24:15They've driven the issue of We don't
24:18want to be called him Aphrodite.
24:20We want to be called intersects
24:23or differences in developmental
24:25in sexual development.
24:27And again,
24:27this then sort of goes in people
24:30with who identifies transgender
24:32that is very different.
24:34They weren't born with ambiguous genitalia,
24:36but they do feel and they they
24:38know down to the core that how
24:41they identify doesn't match
24:43their external genitalia.
24:44And again,
24:45these are issues now that doctors
24:47and experts are grappling with
24:49and trying to understand.
24:51I was very moved the reading that chapter
24:55in particular the solidarity between.
24:58The woman whose story is so painful
25:00to read as a parent because I have no
25:03doubt that her parents thought they
25:05were doing the right thing for her
25:08in 1956 and when she had subsequent
25:10surgery also still as a child.
25:12But how she and others are really
25:14supporting parents today who
25:16also have Intersex children.
25:17And that was a moment of.
25:21Of hope kind of in that otherwise quite
25:24depressing chapter.
25:25Yeah, and I think Bo she calls herself.
25:29She's been Brian then Bonnie
25:31and now calls herself bow.
25:33She really was one of the
25:36founders of this movement.
25:38Accidentally she read in.
25:41In the Sciences magazine
25:42a doctor Fausto Sterling,
25:44who's an anthropologist or sociologist,
25:46but a very brilliant woman
25:47at Brown University,
25:49wrote an article from that point of view,
25:52saying we shouldn't really have two genders.
25:54There should be 5 genders.
25:56It's in a short piece, and this was in,
25:59Oh, the 1993 and so she and she wrote,
26:03highlighting not really going into an
26:05biggest genitalia, but just talking.
26:07But there's.
26:07There's a whole spectrum.
26:10Bo wrote a letter to the
26:13editor saying I was born.
26:15Intersects I think she used that term.
26:17I was born Intersex and actually I have a
26:20foundation or a organization for anybody.
26:22That's like me.
26:23She didn't at the time.
26:25She just said I have this
26:27organization for anyone.
26:28That's like me that wants to reach out.
26:30She just felt that there's no
26:33way I could be the only one.
26:36And I think she gave her mailing
26:39address or home address and she was.
26:41She thought that maybe she'd here
26:44from 5 people and they could get
26:47together and have a meeting.
26:49It basically became a full time job.
26:51She was flooded with letters
26:52saying I thought I was the only
26:54one I thought I was the only one
26:56and that's how the intersects.
26:58I mean that's there're other
26:59people too and she doesn't like
27:01when I give her full credit,
27:03but a lot of people do give her full credit,
27:06but she's one of the patients that
27:08really got this whole groundswell
27:09grow and going. And Randy,
27:10it's not only the Doctor is kind of in
27:13that chapter, but often you recognize,
27:15I think with real kind of humanity,
27:17not abrogating kind of
27:18responsibility away from them,
27:19but real humanity. How often?
27:21A lot of doctors and other researchers or
27:23are doing the best they can with what they
27:25know and what they believe to be true.
27:28Absolutely, even if sometimes kind of,
27:29they go sideways or backwards
27:31from a scientific perspective.
27:32So you want me to tell the Steinach story.
27:34I do know that was my effort.
27:36Segue into that 'cause I know you
27:38want to talk about it, right?
27:40Yeah? So I
27:41mean one of the points in the
27:42book is that we can't just say,
27:44OK, these are the bad guys
27:46and these are the good guys.
27:48There's a Gray area in between
27:49and one of the things that.
27:51I think we all know is that
27:53some of our leading scientists,
27:55or the ones that see the
27:56data and then make a leap.
27:58So pushing for instance saw the data and
28:00he could barely see in the pituitary.
28:02Then we didn't have the
28:04sophisticated imagery,
28:04but he had this idea that the pituitary
28:07gland probably effects the body.
28:08People thought he was.
28:09There were people that really
28:11thought he was nuts at the time,
28:13but he was right so he took this sleep
28:15and now he could say that's wonderful.
28:17But sometimes people leap
28:18in the wrong direction.
28:20So that's the story I want to talk about.
28:22And they're not always bad guys.
28:24They're brilliant,
28:25but they just happen to a lot of brilliant
28:28things and then some not so brilliant.
28:30Even pushing himself did the first
28:32pituitary transplant and I'll
28:34just tell this little story too.
28:35So we did all these wonderful things
28:38and now everyone believed his mind
28:40body theories and he's famous and he
28:42had a man with a pituitary tumor.
28:44He was 48 years old.
28:46He was complaining of vision
28:48headaches and then pushing.
28:49Thought well 'cause he was
28:51a very daring bold surgeon.
28:53What if I take out his pituitary and
28:55just give him a fresh one from a
28:57baby that was born like a stillborn
28:59baby so it was before the days of IR
29:02BS and all that he just said to his
29:05he called a friend who is an OBGYN
29:07and said if you get a stillborn can
29:10I have the pituitary and I'm going
29:12to send a medical student over to get it.
29:16He did the surgery,
29:17he didn't want to be secret about.
29:19It went right to the press.
29:21You know, baby brain cures man
29:24broken brain cured by baby.
29:26Then it crushing thought that worked,
29:28but you know, of course, the man that
29:31had this nonfunctioning pituitary.
29:32So after a month or so symptoms came back.
29:35He wasn't feeling well.
29:36Cushing did it again because he still
29:38thought he was on the right path.
29:40Same medical students, same doctor,
29:42and this time, the man eventually died.
29:44Cushing, who was a, uh?
29:47Great surgeon artists,
29:48Pulitzer Prize winning author.
29:50Didn't like to admit his mistakes,
29:53shocking.
29:54So what he said was he was nearing
29:58the end of Hickory.
30:00Did not try to do this again,
30:03but he blamed the medical student for
30:05not getting for not going fast enough
30:07to get the pattern and bring it back.
30:10And he blamed the OBGYN for not dissecting
30:13it properly but he didn't try it again.
30:15So he made a mistake.
30:17The story that I'm slowly getting
30:19to is Eugene Steinach who was
30:21a scientist in Vienna who did
30:22Nobel Prize winning research.
30:24If anyone's heard his name
30:26now it's 'cause we think
30:27he was the one that started the whole 1920s.
30:30Vasectomies boost libido.
30:32And he never did the operations,
30:34but he promoted that theory.
30:36But he wasn't a charlatan, quack,
30:38trying to get his surgeon friends,
30:41a lot of money from doing worthless
30:44vasectomies to boost libido. He did.
30:46His original research was saying that
30:48the interstitial cell produced male
30:49hormone testosterone wasn't made yet.
30:51I love the story in a in a few ways,
30:54because he was right about that.
30:56Many of his colleagues nominated
30:57him 11 times for the Nobel Prize.
30:59He didn't get the Nobel Prize.
31:01'cause as we know,
31:02all prizes are kind of subjective.
31:04Alot of people on the Nobel committee at
31:07that time in the 1920s could not believe
31:09that the interstitial cell did anything.
31:11They just thought it was connective tissue,
31:13so that I've just recently read was.
31:16The main reason he didn't
31:17get the Nobel Prize?
31:18But then he had a theory that sounds good.
31:22It's just not right that if you kill
31:25off cells in an area or block them,
31:28the other ones will proliferate.
31:30Kind of like weeds,
31:32so that got him thinking.
31:34Oh well, then if you block something
31:37near the interstitial cell,
31:38a Vacek to me would do that.
31:41That'll make more interstitial cells.
31:43Then we'll have more of
31:45whatever this male hormone is,
31:47and that'll make people smarter.
31:49And better libido.
31:50An more wonderful whatever he thought,
31:52all those male characteristics were
31:54so he tested it on rats an he said
31:57he saw they became eroticized,
31:59which my copier said isn't a word
32:01and I'm like that he used it.
32:03He actually coined the term eroticization
32:05and that's what is rats became.
32:07And then they tested it in a man he
32:10didn't have. A colleague did an.
32:12We all know the power of testimony.
32:15The doctor said I want you to now
32:17see if you have a stronger libido
32:20'cause we think this is going
32:22to make your libido better.
32:24And you should feel closer
32:25to your 20 year old self.
32:27And sure enough, he did.
32:28Freud had it done.
32:30He said he felt better.
32:31Yates had it done,
32:32and said even his poetry is
32:34better than it's ever been.
32:38Steinach because the concept of
32:39this ectomy's for libido became
32:41so popular here in America,
32:43that Steinbeck's name became a verb.
32:45So people were getting Stein Act all over.
32:48There were doctors saying
32:50this doesn't make sense.
32:51This is testimony.
32:52But as you know testimony held
32:54sway and it didn't fade because
32:57doctors finally convinced people.
32:58I think this is placebo.
33:00It's Wade because we isolated testosterone
33:03and you don't have to grab the Vacek to me.
33:06You could just.
33:07One day get testosterone gel well and
33:10Randy tells the story of a band in
33:12London who had it done and rented the
33:14Royal Albert Hall to kind of prove his
33:16reality is going to stand on sat on
33:18stage and let people asking questions
33:20forever and ever and he had a heart
33:23attack and died the night before.
33:25Oh yes, hopefully he lived a good,
33:27robust life until then. So
33:29I want to
33:30open it up to
33:32questions. I know we have roving Mike's,
33:34I think will take audience questions
33:37for about 20 or so minutes.
33:39And then I want to ask
33:41Randy concluding question.
33:42And if none of you raise your hands,
33:45although you don't strike
33:46me as a retiring audience,
33:48but if no one raises your hands,
33:51I'm happy to keep asking questions.
33:53So with that preamble, dots.
33:55Questions comments for Randy.
33:59No no yes.
34:10It's OK, we can hear you too. I can repeat
34:12the question will repeat a mole.
34:14Repeat the question case.
34:18People live.
34:22Charlie.
34:26For example.
34:29Right?
34:33That
34:38Ha. OK, so the question was for
34:42anyone that didn't hear it.
34:44Why do people gravitate to goop over them?
34:47Their family practitioner anan.
34:48Why are people distrustful of Medicine?
34:51and I do think it goes back to were
34:54trained as physicians to explain the pros
34:57and cons of everything an there's this
35:00damn uncertainty that people don't want
35:03to hear about and so things like goop.
35:06I think there's a number of reasons one.
35:09There's surety, even though it's fake,
35:12there's surety in it.
35:15And there's testimonies, and there's some.
35:17You know it's interesting
35:18because people will say, Oh,
35:20I don't believe what I read.
35:22They do believe what's in the media.
35:25and I also think that as doctors,
35:27it's important to keep up with what's
35:29going on and what your patients are
35:32hearing rather than just dismiss
35:34it outright because your patients
35:36want you to have an open mind.
35:38So rather than say which you
35:40just want to say,
35:42and I'd want to say like that's from goop.
35:45It's ridiculous.
35:46Don't go there.
35:47I think we have this history
35:48sometimes of doctors,
35:49and I'd probably be the same way
35:51that you just get so annoyed and
35:53angry that someone would do that
35:54and you just want to say honestly,
35:56don't do that.
35:57Here's what you're supposed to do.
35:58It might be better not take an hour,
36:01but a few moments just to say I get it.
36:03I know where you're coming from.
36:05I know you think that you're tired
36:06because you have adrenal fatigue syndrome,
36:08but can I just explain to you?
36:10I know this is where this is coming from,
36:13but here's what I'm worried about.
36:14If you do that.
36:15And here's what I think can help,
36:17and I think so much of it sounds so trite,
36:20but so much of it does come down to doctor
36:22patient relationships and just taking those.
36:24I mean that didn't take me that
36:26long to say that just taking that,
36:28you know,
36:28'cause everyone complaints.
36:29I don't have an hour,
36:31but it doesn't take an hour
36:32just to be a little open minded.
36:34And also I do think like flip
36:36through you don't buy it but flip
36:38through some of these magazines.
36:39Go on the website, see what's out there.
36:41I not only think it's good
36:43to know what's out there,
36:44but it will explain your patience.
36:46Fears 'cause I think what's being sold.
36:48Some of those people are really savvy
36:50about knowing what people are afraid of.
36:53Old age.
36:53Loss of libido.
36:54I don't know, Gray hair or whatever you know.
36:58But I think sometimes we don't
37:00realize what our patients,
37:01your patience.
37:02I don't have any.
37:03You don't realize what your
37:05patients are afraid of and so
37:07it's good to keep an open mind to
37:09be reading that just so that you
37:12know where these market forces
37:13are random. I think first bonded over.
37:16Our distress about the Anti Vaccine Movement,
37:20which is another kind of iteration
37:23of this same challenge and as
37:27I have said before, I'm not.
37:31I'm really not a vindictive person at all,
37:33which is probably healthy for me in my life.
37:37The only person the only person
37:39really that I have a real vendetta
37:41against his Andrew Wakefield.
37:43There's a special place in
37:45hell for him,
37:46and and I say that because
37:47he has and continues to be a
37:49destructive force and I keep telling
37:51my friends in England I can't.
37:53You just take him back and we don't want
37:56him here in the United States any longer,
37:58but I think that he is sadly
38:01the the archetype of this.
38:03Of the prediction on fear.
38:05On the appeal to.
38:07I'm kind of in the apparent
38:10best instincts in the kind of
38:14worst and most malfeasant ways.
38:17Other questions in the white coat
38:19with white could then I don't know any
38:21vendors and I realize it's also not very
38:24particular. Thank you know you
38:25can't see my paint out really point
38:28in your direction.
38:29Really wonderful presentation so far.
38:30My name is Tara Sam from one of the
38:33oncologists here and I'm sort of along
38:35the lines of the gentleman before me.
38:37You know in cancer care something like 85%
38:40of our patients take supplements and we
38:42either don't ask or they don't tell us,
38:44but they're doing it anyway.
38:46So just curious about your thoughts.
38:48Of how we might be able to
38:50take it even a step further,
38:51not just being aware of it
38:53or asking about it, but.
38:55Should we embrace,
38:56you know some of these integrative and
38:59supplemental practices to 1st do no harm,
39:02but maybe how some of these
39:04services within cancer centers
39:06so that patients have a place to.
39:09Come to talk to people about alternative
39:11and complementary treatments.
39:12I should say complementary.
39:13Not alternative,
39:14but you know,
39:14we're sort of on the verge of
39:17some of that here,
39:18and I know other cancer centers are doing it.
39:20And if we don't do it,
39:22I feel like they're just going to
39:24go out to these private boutiques
39:26where they pay a lot of money to
39:28take a lot of supplements that could
39:30do harm and and so I'm just curious
39:33about your thoughts on what our
39:35role is in the medical profession.
39:36To address some of it may be embrace.
39:39Some of
39:39it I do think it's a good idea to
39:41embrace some of some of the things of
39:43like yoga and massage and meditation.
39:45An I know that there are centers that
39:47will tell patients we don't know if
39:49this is going to make you live longer.
39:51An it doesn't mean you weren't
39:53meditating the right way.
39:54If it doesn't help,
39:55but we do know it can help make
39:57you feel better along the way.
39:59and I do think that show.
40:00Patients that you do have this open mind,
40:03but yeah, I do think that it allows
40:05them then to maybe open up and shows
40:07that you're more open minded to
40:08tell you about their supplements.
40:10When I was in the gym the other day
40:12and I heard like look like a 20 year
40:14old trainer telling someone hears
40:16the supplements I'd like you to take.
40:18He was talking to like a 60 year old man
40:21and I was like do I do I get into this kind?
40:24do I inject myself and I can hear my girls
40:27saying even though they weren't there?
40:29No stay out of it.
40:30Stay out of it.
40:32But Fortunately,
40:32as he would listed all the supplements
40:34that this guy should by the response
40:36right as I was about to interrupt,
40:38he said, you know,
40:39I've had a history of the
40:41patient or the train.
40:42The guy working out.
40:43I've had a history of kidney stones.
40:45My doctors told me that,
40:47you know if anyone ever recommends a
40:49supplement to really check it out with him.
40:51So if you can write them down and I'm
40:54going to bring it back to my doctor just
40:56so he knows 'cause it was really painful.
40:59Those kidney stones and I
41:00don't want to do anything.
41:02OK, and I didn't interrupt
41:05even join the conversation.
41:07But yeah,
41:07I do think what you're saying like
41:09rather than say we're not going to
41:11do any of that here because it's
41:13not going to make you live longer
41:15to have to show that you're open to
41:17these suggestions an that if this
41:18makes the journey easier for you,
41:20but we don't want you spending your
41:21money or doing something that can interact,
41:23I think one of the things that
41:26people don't understand is.
41:27That they feel like and I always
41:29try to say people if you think
41:31it's potent enough to do good,
41:33it's got to be potent enough
41:34to have a side effect.
41:36For some reason they get that chemo
41:38can do good things and bad things,
41:40but supplements can only do the good
41:42thing and some might be doing a good thing.
41:44But they also might be doing.
41:46I mean you know this.
41:47I'm telling this to you,
41:49but I do think, yeah,
41:50it's that we should have.
41:52Complementary medicine available.
41:56Other questions, any
41:58questions in the balcony? Yes.
42:04Hi, my name is Molly Dornburg.
42:06I'm a student, the school of
42:08Public Health. I am wondering
42:10how you think about and how you
42:13address in your book the relative. I guess I
42:16would say lack of
42:18intersectionality in this history
42:19in terms of like race, ethnicity,
42:22socioeconomic status, etc. In
42:25terms of medical history,
42:26mean in terms of how and whether
42:29at all this history applies to
42:32people who are non affluent and
42:34nonwhite, I think there's been I mean.
42:38I just look at the history,
42:39not trying to change things,
42:41but I think yeah,
42:42this comes up a lot in what I write and
42:45what I've looked at both in childbirth,
42:47an in hormone therapy we know when the
42:50birth control pill first came out.
42:51It was mainly white women that can afford it,
42:54and then there were fears than
42:56that it was being pushed on.
42:58People on on sterilization
42:59that didn't want it.
43:00So we have this mixed history and
43:02that again it's interesting like
43:03Barbara Balaban for instance,
43:05the one that.
43:07That was the big growth hormone collector.
43:10She's a white woman from Long
43:11Island and she had told me that her
43:14doctor was just kind of nasty to
43:16her an actually I gave a talk here
43:18about that chapter while ago and
43:20someone came up to me and said no.
43:22Actually, she wasn't a nasty doctor,
43:24but the doctor that Barbara Balaban
43:26went to had such a concern to make sure
43:29that hormones were divvied up evenly,
43:31that I think she was annoyed
43:33that this one patient was able
43:35to do so well on her own.
43:36So they had this contentious relationship.
43:38But I do think yes.
43:40It's been.
43:40There's been a whole history of
43:42certain types of medicine that are only
43:44available to those that can afford it.
43:46And it's not just who can afford it,
43:48but also who has the agency
43:50to say to their doctor.
43:51I mean,
43:52my last book was on history of
43:54childbirth an it was always sort
43:55of the women that felt they could
43:57speak up to doctors to say no.
43:59No, you're not doing that to me.
44:01Or yes, you can. So it's this.
44:03Yes,
44:03I I see what you're saying and it's
44:05this long history not just of money,
44:08but of race.
44:09But also,
44:09socioeconomic and a lot of
44:11that informs how much power a
44:13person feels they have to speak
44:15back to their physician and
44:16you do touch on that a little bit in
44:19your eugenics. Yeah, yeah discussion.
44:22Oh Gosh, Yes. Yeah, long hair.
44:27Write code long hair.
44:33Remind
44:44president.
44:57Yeah, hopefully we're getting away from that.
44:59Yeah, and it was. It was like OK,
45:01anti mullerian hormone even in the
45:03beginning 'cause you know we all look
45:06alike in the very beginning when you're in
45:08that little Chris on stage of fetal life.
45:10And then it's when antimalarial
45:12hormone kicks in that you either
45:14choose one fork or the other.
45:16And yes there has been.
45:17I mean some of the quotes are
45:19just amazing in terms of anything
45:21that we've put towards a man and
45:23testosterone which means more stronger,
45:25more career oriented.
45:26I mean there there was a quote
45:28that I have in my book.
45:30Even from when estrogen and
45:32testosterone refers to isolate.
45:33And we thought OK, what can we do?
45:36How? Who needs this?
45:37Who doesn't,
45:38and one of the doctors said,
45:40you know we have to be careful because
45:42soon enough women will think that their
45:45ambitious enough to have careers so and he.
45:47I don't think he was kidding.
45:50And then someone said the response
45:53was this goes back to the 20s where
45:56we called like feminist suffragettes.
45:58But could we turn those suffragettes
46:01back into maternal housekeepers again?
46:04I think that hopefully we're
46:06getting away from that,
46:07but it is something still ingrained.
46:09A colleague of mine is writing a
46:11book just on testosterone and she
46:14calls it the aspirational hormone.
46:16She's done a lot of work with
46:18gender issues and the Olympics.
46:20That's her expertise,
46:21not mine,
46:22but we still think that these women
46:24that have slightly higher testosterone.
46:27That's what's making them
46:28run faster and do better.
46:30And we know that from her studies
46:32and what she's looked into.
46:35That it doesn't always that they.
46:36I mean some of these women
46:38have lost some of these women,
46:39even with the little extra
46:41testosterone that they were born with.
46:42Not doping hasn't had the impact
46:44that we think, but it is.
46:45It's ingrained we're trying
46:47to get away from that,
46:48but it's very ingrained in our system.
46:51Yes.
46:56So my question is basically about the
46:59size about the challenger industry.
47:01And do you think that it's
47:04grown over the past decade?
47:06And could this relate to perhaps
47:08like growing distrust of the
47:10medical institution or even people
47:11unable to afford health insurance?
47:14Do you think that these factors
47:16and potentially played a role?
47:19I think it's the people that have the money
47:22that can keep the charlatan businesses going.
47:24Those that can afford insurance and
47:26those that can afford medicine cannot
47:28afford these people, and they're
47:29not giving out their stuff for free.
47:32I think it's so easy to say,
47:34Oh my God, it's worse now than ever.
47:36But if you look back in history the 1920s
47:39they would say it's worse now than ever.
47:41Every generation you think
47:43it's worse now than ever.
47:44So I kinda think we have
47:46these pushes and pulls.
47:47and I do think when people are
47:49distrustful of the medical
47:50establishment for whatever reason.
47:52It drives people to seek help elsewhere.
47:54Is the testosterone
47:55industry booming right now?
47:57I mean, I got on the sub on
47:59the Metro-North yesterday,
48:01right to a poster that said like,
48:03are you feeling fatigued ahead of you know,
48:06all men?
48:06It didn't say this,
48:08but basically it was like all men over
48:10the age of 30 could use testosterone.
48:13Call this clinic.
48:14It's right near a Metro North Station,
48:16so that's a huge industry now.
48:19But we had.
48:20I think it might have been even
48:22more in the 1920s when.
48:24There is no one really clamping down,
48:26but I think it's oh there's always
48:27going to be someone out there to
48:29get that low lying fruit and see.
48:31Oh wait,
48:32we just learned that oxy Towson
48:34is something just social skills.
48:35I'll put that in a bottle and sell it.
48:38You know,
48:38there's always someone that's clever
48:39enough to figure out.
48:41One last question could have been
48:43very patient in the Blue Ann.
48:44Yeah, sorry, so I'm sorry we can
48:46get to the other hands, but yes.
48:49Hello. I had a question you might comment
48:53so its fashions in stated that we live in
48:56this post truth world where we may not
48:58value evidence and facts and rationales.
49:00We once did I wonder in your research
49:02of the evolution of American
49:04culture in the 1920s present day.
49:06You might comment on the evolution of
49:08the value of evidence and rationale.
49:11That looks like maybe even the world
49:13of social media and so forth. Yeah,
49:16I think the world of the Internet and
49:18social media has really changed it.
49:20Just because in terms of these
49:22new fads can just go viral.
49:24That's we call it, you know, much faster,
49:27and I think it's just hard to push
49:30back against testimony an I think yeah,
49:32it's always been there.
49:34But I don't think you could create
49:36that wave as quickly as you can now
49:39in terms of treatments and drugs
49:41that are thought to save your life.
49:43And as much as people say they
49:46don't believe it, they do.
49:47And that's the hard thing.
49:49What can we do?
49:50You know we can clamp down on doctors
49:52like my oxy Towson Salesperson.
49:54It's very hard to clamp down on people
49:56posting stuff or misconstruing a
49:58lot of it isn't just from nowhere,
50:00its people.
50:00Misconstruing What's in the media
50:02and then you know it's almost
50:04like the game of telephone,
50:06and we're constantly working against that.
50:07And again, it's freedom, the press.
50:09So how do you clamp down on all this?
50:13And I do think I think yeah,
50:15it gets back to basic cause and effect.
50:18Two.
50:18I mean the whole thing with
50:20vaccines or people were saying no,
50:22no no.
50:22My kid had a vaccine and then two
50:24years later was diagnosed with autism.
50:27There's a fact there's you know.
50:28So it's it's not just like these
50:30things that have nowhere.
50:32It's the way they see the data to or the
50:35measles isn't so bad for you, right?
50:37I want to end on an optimistic note.
50:39Hopefully the Randy.
50:40The first story that she
50:42shares in her book as.
50:44About a woman named Blanche Gray who had.
50:47The like horrific.
50:53Name, I guess is being the
50:55fat bride in the early.
50:5720th century and yet she says if she was
51:01born on the wrong side of medical discovery.
51:04That had she been born later,
51:06there would have been clear interventions to
51:08help kind of save her life, improve her life.
51:11Hopefully also she would have been born
51:14at a time when kind of bullying was not
51:17an acceptable form of communication.
51:19And so I want to ask Randy like what
51:22are we on the other side of now?
51:25Oh I think what do you think that in
51:28the study of hormones or otherwise?
51:30You know, for your crystal ball,
51:32what do you see?
51:34Kind of coming down the Pike.
51:36what
51:36I think is really exciting now an
51:38I sort of I can say to this yell
51:41audience 'cause I start with Cushing.
51:43Who is it? Yell and then I just spoke
51:46to a wonderful researcher right here.
51:48Sabrina Deano. Who's doing now?
51:51Some of the cutting edge
51:53neuroscience endocrine work?
51:54I think what's really on the cutting
51:56edge now is hormones and behavior.
51:58So a few decades ago,
52:00we realized that the fat cell isn't just
52:03a glob of butter that I thought it was.
52:06It's actually an endocrine
52:07cell that secretes hormones.
52:09But when we learned that leptin as
52:11our appetite suppressing hormone,
52:13you can't take it,
52:14you're not going to lose weight from it.
52:17But even though there are
52:19leptin diet puts out there.
52:21But what the fascinating part
52:23isn't that people that have leptin
52:25defects gain weight more quickly.
52:27It doesn't affect their metabolism,
52:28it drives them to eat their compelled to eat.
52:31And people with leptin defects
52:33that eat all the time.
52:35It's not like they're enjoying their food,
52:37it's just this compulsion.
52:38So when I spoke to the scientists
52:40that are doing that research,
52:42or that isolated that gene
52:44there feeling was there,
52:45not just excited about what
52:47can we learn about obesity?
52:48But this is about behavior.
52:50This is showing us.
52:51That hormones are controlling our behavior,
52:54not just growth and metabolism.
52:55Can we control our behavior?
52:57Thurmans do we understand the criminal mind?
52:59No,
53:00but I mentioned Sabrina Diano 'cause
53:02she's doing fascinating work with leptin,
53:04an looking at in the inside the cell,
53:06not just receptors.
53:07But I think we're really honing
53:09in on the details of the cell
53:12to really understand behavior.
53:13We're not there yet.
53:15And will we control it?
53:16That's always that really weird question
53:19of how much control do we want to have?
53:22So the more we know, I
53:24guess we're on the verge.
53:26We've got great technology
53:27and even though I make fun
53:29of some wacky scientist,
53:30there's some really wonderful
53:31ones on great research going
53:33on now. So since we are in
53:35an educational institution,
53:36hopefully kind of where in the presence
53:38of more wonderful than wacky scientists,
53:40although there and hopefully a little
53:41a little bit of wacky as you also show
53:44in terms of kind of being able to
53:46imagine the previously unimaginable,
53:48is also crucial.
53:49Part of driving us forward.
53:50I'm so thankful to Randy for.
53:53Her commitment to taking kind of
53:55conversations that often only
53:56happened in institutions like this
53:58kind of out into the broader public,
54:00because I think that kind of her
54:03another's ability to do that,
54:05is it a crucial part of trying to
54:07ameliorate the distrust that so many of
54:10you ask questions about and tried to?
54:12Once again,
54:13orientis around a shared fact,
54:15based which hopefully.
54:18People who aren't as acquainted
54:19with what a leptin is or isn't,
54:21could still use to empower themselves to
54:23make the best decisions for themselves,
54:25their children, their futures,
54:26because we're all better
54:27off when that happens.
54:28So Randy, just thank you so much.
54:30Thank you and I thank you for
54:32hosting us today. Thank you.