Anti-Blackness, Abolition, and Criminal Justice: A Conversation with Dr. Emily Wang and Dr. Tracey Meares

Name: Anti-Blackness, Abolition, and Criminal Justice: A Conversation with Dr. Emily Wang and Dr. Tracey Meares
Uploaded: 2020-07-27T21:26:18.15Z
Duration: 1 h 29 min 49 s
Description: July 22, 2020

July 27, 2020

July 22, 2020

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ID: 5420
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00:00So Hello Everybody, thank you so much
00:04for joining us. Welcome to. A session
00:07entitled Antiblackness abolition
00:08and criminal justice conversation
00:10with doctor Emily Wong,
00:12an professor, Tracy Mirrors.
00:15This talk will be followed by commentary
00:17from Discussant Sidney cream.
00:18My name is Anna Reesman.
00:20I'm a professor of Medicine here
00:22at Yale School of Medicine,
00:23where I direct the program
00:25for Humanities in Madison,
00:26and I am absolutely thrilled to be Co
00:29hosting again with my colleague and friend,
00:31Doctor Helena Hanson,
00:32who is associate professor of Psychiatry
00:34an anthropology at New York University,
00:36and for several years she has
00:38been running the wonderful social
00:40medicine in action series here
00:41at Yale School of Medicine.
00:45Tracy mirrors is the Walton
00:46Hail Hamilton Professor and a
00:48founding director of the justice
00:50collaboratory at Yale Law School.
00:51Before she came to yell,
00:53she was a professor at the University
00:55of Chicago Law School and she was
00:58the first African American woman
01:00granted tenure at both law schools.
01:02She's a nationally recognized expert
01:03on policing in urban communities,
01:05and she has worked extensively with the
01:08government, the federal government,
01:09including being a member of
01:11President Barack Obama's task
01:12force on 21st century policing.
01:14In 2019,
01:15Professor Mears was elected a member of
01:17the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
01:20And some of you may have retro piece
01:22in the Atlantic this past June.
01:24That was called.
01:25The first step is figuring
01:26out what police are for.
01:30Doctor Emily Wong is an associate
01:32professor in the Yale School of Medicine,
01:35where she directs the health
01:37justice lab and the brand new Sage
01:39Center for Health and justice.
01:41The Health Justice Lab is a collaborative,
01:43interdisciplinary team focused on
01:45improving the health of individuals and
01:47communities affected by mass incarceration.
01:49The Sage Center will focus on identifying
01:51and applying strategies to improve the
01:54health of individuals and communities
01:55impacted by incarceration in Connecticut,
01:58nationally and globally.
01:59Doctor Wong's cared for many individuals
02:01with a history of incarceration,
02:04and she's also the cofounder of
02:06the Transitions Clinic Network,
02:08Agro in consortium of 30 community
02:10health centers nationwide dedicated
02:12to caring for individuals recently
02:14released from correctional facilities by
02:16employing individuals with a history of
02:18incarceration as community health workers.
02:22After Professor Mirrors and doctor
02:23Wang each offer brief remarks,
02:25we'll hear from our discussant,
02:27Sidney rose green,
02:28who was a fifth year MD PhD student at
02:31guess full of Medicine and the program
02:33in history of Science and medicine.
02:36Sydney's research uses intimate
02:37partner violence as a lens to
02:39interrogate histories of racialized
02:40engendered surveillance in medicine.
02:42Following Sydney's remarks,
02:43will have plenty of time for your
02:46questions and we ask you to use
02:48the question tab at the bottom of
02:51your screen and we will take those
02:53questions at the end of the remarks.
02:56And with that we will get started.
02:58Thanks again for tuning in.
03:03Should I go? OK,
03:06um good evening everyone I speak to you
03:09from my Home Office, um in New Haven,
03:12which in this very room actually
03:15was rated yesterday. Rate my room.
03:17It's an interesting Twitter account.
03:19I got a 7 out of 10 so I'm wondering
03:23what you all think. I like it.
03:26I spend a lot of time here.
03:29I hope all of you are doing really
03:32well this evening under some
03:35very challenging circumstances.
03:36We uhm, I have come together to talk about
03:40the criminal justice system tonight.
03:44I would like to point out before
03:47I start my remarks that almost
03:50everything that we have to say
03:53about issues concerning abolition,
03:57antiblackness, racism, reform,
03:58justice are actually apart intimately
04:02connected with the experiences that
04:04everyone is having with the Covid pandemic.
04:08And that's in a really critical
04:09thing to think about.
04:11I think when Doctor Wang,
04:12I'm going to call her Emily from now on
04:15because we are close friends and colleagues.
04:18And when she speaks it,
04:19she'll she'll bring that home.
04:21But for right now,
04:22what I want to do is offer some some
04:25framing remarks and I really look forward
04:28to our dialogue later this evening.
04:30My remarks are going to point
04:32primarily right now to this concept
04:35of abolition in this moment,
04:37and to think about that.
04:39For those of you who are on your computers,
04:42probably all of you,
04:44I would point you to something that I
04:47wrote in the Boston review in 2017.
04:50It was a piece about policing
04:52as a public good.
04:54An in that piece,
04:55I said that policing as we know
04:58it must be about published.
05:00Before it can be transformed,
05:03and that might be an odd thing
05:06for someone who's a lawyer to say
05:09someone who has worked so closely
05:12with government as I have to say,
05:16but I think it is absolutely critical
05:19and understanding the connection
05:22between that term abolish and what
05:25I meant in that in the context
05:28of that piece is important.
05:31And this is what I meant when you
05:34think about the term abolition.
05:37Historically it is inescapable.
05:40To the context of slavery is inescapable,
05:44and that's an important starting point.
05:48Because one should understand when
05:51one is using the term abolition.
05:54That and historically when slavery was
05:57finally abolished in this country,
06:00no one seriously understood that
06:03to be eradication.
06:04Simply the eradication of the
06:07legal category of slavery.
06:10If that were the case, right?
06:12If all abolition ever meant was
06:14eradication of the legal category of slavery,
06:17then it would be OK to pay black people
06:21less than it would be to pay white people,
06:24or to have a system of convict leasing,
06:27or to have a system that denied
06:30black people the right to vote,
06:32or to have a system of segregation
06:35in which Blacks and whites had
06:37to sit separately.
06:39Or maybe Blacks were excluded.
06:41From public accommodations.
06:42Wait, wait,
06:43that's what happened,
06:44and that happened because the 13th amendment,
06:47which abolished the legal category slavery,
06:50didn't do the rest of the work.
06:54To establish full citizenship.
06:56For formally enslaved people,
06:58what did the rest of the work
06:59or what was intended to do?
07:01The rest of the work wore?
07:03The other, um,
07:04Civil War Amendments and those of
07:06you who are students of history
07:08know that even that wasn't enough.
07:10We needed reconstruction at that time
07:13and we had reconstruction for a very
07:16brief period of time for about 11
07:19years before white supremacist terrorism.
07:22Cut it short,
07:23but during that short period of time,
07:26those of you who are film it
07:28familiar with the work of WEB
07:30dubois knows that black people
07:32formerly enslaved African Americans,
07:34were able to begin to workout
07:36the terms of their citizenship.
07:38And what did they do?
07:40They establish schools,
07:41they established churches,
07:42they worked to establish.
07:45Recent forms of of health care and
07:47there was a very brief period of
07:50time and maybe Emily will speak
07:52about this and in which the federal
07:56government actually supported a very
07:58nice and form of public health care.
08:02Uh, for formerly enslaved people.
08:04The point of understanding this is
08:07that that the promise of reconstruction
08:10didn't really ever take place.
08:12And here we are. Um?
08:17Over you know, 100 years later,
08:20still trying to fulfill the
08:23promise of Reconstruction.
08:25I say this to say that it is
08:28impossible to understand what people
08:31mean when they say abolition of
08:34policing without understanding the
08:36history of abolition itself and
08:39the critical connection between
08:41abolition and reconstruction.
08:43So when I hear the terms defunding,
08:46or when I hear the terms abolition,
08:50I don't simply think no policing
08:53or reducing the budget for.
08:55Policing and you know,
08:57no investment elsewhere in any
08:59other aspect of government.
09:01what I hear is simply a call for
09:04people to fulfill the promise
09:07of reconstruction that we have
09:09never actually fulfilled.
09:11This is about the set of public goods
09:15to which every citizen in this country
09:18is entitled one of those public goods,
09:22of course, is safety.
09:24But in this country,
09:25safety has.
09:26Been conceptualised as a certain
09:29narrow form of policing comprised
09:32of sending armed first responders
09:35to people calling for emergencies.
09:38When you ask people what their
09:41conception of safety is,
09:43and in particular when you
09:46ask people who are living in
09:49places of concentrated poverty,
09:52the same places that experience high
09:55rates of. An infant mortality high.
09:59Rate of comorbidity for for
10:02Corona Virus the same places that
10:06are experiencing high rates of
10:09coronavirus exposure and so on.
10:13Poor housing, food insecurity etc.
10:16Also these are the same places that
10:20experience unbelievably high rates
10:23of criminal legal system exposure.
10:26They will describe what they
10:29want in terms of safety,
10:31not in terms of how quickly can an armed
10:34first responder arrived to their home,
10:37but they will define it in terms
10:40of what kinds of supportive
10:42services can they get before these
10:45issues that they experience.
10:47Turn into high rates of violence.
10:50They will ask for better education.
10:52They were asked for better housing.
10:55They will ask for.
10:57Um, much better access to public health care.
11:00Those are all critical aspects of
11:03public safety that people don't get,
11:06and what they do get.
11:08As I've mentioned before,
11:10is an armed first responder,
11:12so it's critical for us to understand that
11:15when we're talking about the set of public
11:19goods that each citizen is entitled to of,
11:23that is at the center of this
11:26conversation of the funding.
11:28Even though the catch phrase has
11:30been de funding because it's simple.
11:32Uhm, and that's what's going to
11:34get people out in the streets.
11:37But importantly,
11:37it is not what's going to get
11:40us from here to there, right?
11:43Another way of understanding it.
11:45And then I'm going to turn this
11:48over to Emily to make things
11:50a little bit more concrete.
11:52Is the phrases defunding
11:54and abolition are compass?
11:56Is they point us in the direction
11:59that we might want to go?
12:01But there not a road map for
12:04how to get from here to there.
12:07And that is the work that we need to do,
12:11and that I'm hoping that those of you
12:13who are listening in on this web and R,
12:16especially those of you who are
12:18working in the healthcare industry
12:20and medical students in the like,
12:22um,
12:23can be dedicated to an devoted to thank you.
12:31Great thank you
12:33Tracy. Uhm you know it is a Realty Bonner.
12:36Actually to be sharing our six o'clock
12:39hour together with my good friend
12:41and also had this conversation.
12:43It's a conversation that I welcome,
12:46entertain and realize that
12:47there's a desperate kind of
12:49views in our medical community.
12:51But in particular,
12:52I think that perhaps one thing
12:54that can undergird and kind of
12:56anchor us in a conversation about
12:59antiblackness and abolition and
13:01the criminal justice system.
13:03Is the the structures that
13:05need to be put in place,
13:07and in particular the structures
13:09that need to be put in place from
13:12the health system and so it's
13:14with that that I wanted to center.
13:17Kind of my reflections on abolition.
13:19In particular thinking about what it is,
13:22where it is that we're complicit in
13:24having perpetuated at structural racism,
13:26where it is that we're complicit in
13:29anti blackness and where it is that
13:32collectively we can move forward.
13:34And So what I'm going to do is at center.
13:38My reflections with photos I'm
13:39going to share my screen and then
13:41do something that I learned from my
13:43colleague Marcel in Eunice Smith,
13:44which is to turn off my video so
13:47that I can move through my screen.
13:50Sharp
14:11I like.
14:14OK, so can you see a?
14:19Can you see these photos?
14:22Super and then I actually don't know
14:24how to share most close my my video
14:27so I'll just keep moving forward.
14:29So what I wanted to do is first just to
14:33really kind of ground us in what it is,
14:36at least the criminal justice system is.
14:38And some of you have seen me
14:41share these photos before,
14:42but others of you may not up,
14:45and so you know, as Tracy has shared with us,
14:48COVID-19 has really unmasked yet again
14:50longstanding health disparities that are
14:52fueled by our nation's correctional system.
14:54The recent deaths of Brianna Taylor,
14:56George Floyd, in others have really
14:58highlighted persistent societal
14:59racism and especially anti blackness.
15:01And this is nowhere better illustrated
15:04in our criminal justice system.
15:06So just to bring us some statistics.
15:09Again, the BJS estimates that
15:11over 6 million Americans,
15:12mostly the poor and people of color,
15:15are currently under some form
15:17of correctional control.
15:1810s of millions more are
15:20formally incarcerated.
15:21And So what I wanted to do
15:24is to share photos.
15:25Here are all photos from within San Quentin,
15:29which is one of the largest prisons.
15:32In the United States,
15:33and it's at the source of a
15:37huge outbreak of COVID-19.
15:39These of course are photos
15:41from prior to COVID-19,
15:43where right now about 1600 individuals,
15:45but those were incarcerated as well
15:48as staff have COVID-19 as illustrating
15:51features of a second tier healthcare
15:54system that exists behind bars and
15:56really trying to drive home the point
15:59that while we aim to Decar Schreibt.
16:02And abolish the prison system that
16:05would it requires from us as healthcare
16:07providers in health care leaders.
16:10Is that much more to really abolish that?
16:13Which would.
16:15Prisons and jails as we see them
16:18as they currently exist.
16:19It requires us to make some serious
16:22investments in the health systems
16:23behind bars and so this year is
16:26a photo of a gentleman who's
16:28incarcerated who's going to see his
16:30health care provider and you can
16:32see that they're making the line
16:34to see a health care provider.
16:36and I just start by saying is that
16:39of the 2.2 million people that are
16:42incarcerated about 80% have a chronic
16:44health condition that warrants.
16:46Wanted to know primary care and you
16:47can see that this is how they're
16:50accessing the health system.
16:51There's another patient.
16:52If you look at the picture,
16:54he's in a cage waiting for the doctor,
16:56and so the system in and of itself
16:59and their experience the health
17:00system is violent and it's making
17:03that to wait to see a doctor.
17:05There's a person that's being held in a cage.
17:14However, it's important to
17:15remember that behind bars,
17:17that's when the only places
17:18where we have a constitutional
17:20guarantee for health care,
17:22and so for the large number of
17:24individuals that move through the
17:26criminal justice system and they
17:28estimated about 10 million each year,
17:30especially for adults,
17:31black men in particular,
17:33it's often the place where they
17:35first access healthcare as an adult,
17:37and so 40% of individuals are newly
17:39diagnosed with a chronic health condition.
17:42While they're incarcerated and this
17:44is given a court case in the 1970s
17:47which provided a constitutional
17:49guarantee again for health care
17:51and then increasingly as the
17:53length of sentences of increased,
17:55the focus has shifted from acute Care now
17:58to the provision of chronic healthcare.
18:06This is the patient that actually
18:09had been newly diagnosed with
18:11hypertension while incarcerated and
18:13I share this photo here as again,
18:16you can see that he had been newly
18:19diagnosed with hypertension,
18:21had been sent out to a local hospital.
18:26It went hypertensive emergency is
18:28blood pressures were Sky High and
18:31then brought back in and this was
18:33kind of post hospitalization rounding
18:36on the patient and so sometimes the
18:39very structures of the criminal
18:41justice system don't permit kind
18:44of the usual standards care.
18:46You can see that we've thrown the blood
18:49pressure cuff through the window here.
18:52There's not a lot of space for
18:55confidentiality for discussion.
18:56Of care.
18:58Moreover, this gentleman every single
19:00day has to make a line to see a nurse,
19:04and it's called up at the crack of dawn,
19:07goes to see a line to get his medications,
19:11to see a nurse.
19:12The nurse gives him his medications
19:14for his high blood pressure,
19:16and he takes it.
19:17She checks to see if he's cheeked it
19:20and then moves back into his cell.
19:23And so if you think about kind
19:25of how it is that we teach our
19:28patients to take care of.
19:30Of their chronic health conditions,
19:33you know adherence is almost 100%,
19:35and corrections,
19:36and Interestingly,
19:37the management of chronic health
19:40conditions is actually better behind
19:42bars than it is in the community.
19:45However, it's incredibly passive.
19:46The other thing is that for
19:49patients with diabetes,
19:51if you don't comply with your
19:53diabetic regimen in studies that
19:55we've done in Connecticut in another
19:58state in certain circumstance.
20:00Says if you say don't want to get your
20:03insulin for the day you're actually
20:05sent to administrative segregation
20:07or solitary for not complying.
20:09And so again,
20:10the experience of Healthcare
20:12is mandated in certain ways.
20:14It's incredible,
20:15you know,
20:15there's the capacity for patient adherence,
20:18but it can be incredibly punitive.
20:26This is a photo of patients waiting to see a.
20:29In fact an HIV doctor while
20:32incarcerated and I point to it.
20:34Just a point to this pink slip.
20:36In many places around the country.
20:38Still this is happening.
20:40This pink slit is a chat that
20:42you fill out and patients when
20:44they want to see a doctor.
20:46They have an acute need,
20:48have to fill this out.
20:50The chat is looked over at rather than.
20:53Uh is looked over by it's a kite.
20:56Sort of looked over by a
20:58correctional officer first,
21:00then the correctional officer.
21:01If they think that there is a medical
21:05need it's then looked over by a nurse
21:08and then finally by a physician.
21:10And so again there's well.
21:12Health care is constitutionally guaranteed.
21:14There's real barriers to
21:16actually accessing healthcare,
21:17and so you can imagine that in the time
21:20of Covid If you're having symptoms.
21:23And this is the symptom of access
21:26that system of accessing care.
21:28It's nearly impossible to
21:29get good timely care,
21:31or at least you have to go through a
21:34correctional officer to get access to care.
21:40And then Lastly I share this
21:42photo of a patient at that was
21:45incarcerated in San Quentin.
21:47A gentleman just like the first photo
21:50that I shared at the beginning,
21:53almost 70 years old.
21:54Oxygen dependent with CEO PD
21:57and what you can see here is,
21:59is that he is being held in
22:02administrative segregation,
22:03set solitaire confinement.
22:05He spends 23 hours a day
22:07right now in this cell.
22:09And you can see that his oxygen
22:12is actually held outside of
22:14his cell every hour or so.
22:16You would hear him as you
22:18walked by health care providers.
22:20Correction officers were
22:21here and bam ING on the door.
22:24And it's because the tubing
22:26for his oxygen got kinked and
22:28he could no longer breathe.
22:30And again,
22:31you know this picture for me
22:33illustrates the ways that our health
22:35system are brutally violent in its
22:37construction and in particular.
22:39Within corrections that
22:41Healthcare isn't seen as primary,
22:43in fact,
22:43they think about the safety 1st
22:46and punishment 1st,
22:47and so the oxygen take is being held
22:50outside and again for the millions
22:52of folks that are incarcerated and
22:54then in particular those that have covid.
22:57Now, how is the health care
23:00being delivered inside?
23:01How?
23:01Where is the oxygen as people are
23:04being held with covid symptoms and
23:07thinking about this you can see how.
23:10Folks have been diagnosed with chronic
23:12conditions who first experienced the
23:14health care in system behind bars,
23:16maybe mistrustful, distrustful,
23:17or find the health system,
23:19you know abhorrent.
23:20Given these experiences,
23:21the other thing that I would want
23:24to point out here is that we do
23:27have this whole constitutionally
23:29guaranteed system of care behind bars.
23:32And also end taxpayer dollars
23:34each and are everyone of our
23:36taxpayer dollars go into paying
23:38for the delivery of care,
23:40but there isn't,
23:41say a jayco,
23:42a system that monitors the quality of
23:45care behind bars and so essentially
23:47there are these two .2 million
23:49people that are incarcerated an
23:52even larger population that move
23:54through a health system for which
23:56there is limited federal oversight
23:58and certainly no transparent ways
24:00of measuring quality of care.
24:02Delivered inside and so this picture
24:06comes from Cook County and you know,
24:09was in the media recently during a
24:12COVID-19 and a person that's incarcerated,
24:15wrote, you know,
24:16on a window help we matter too.
24:19And you know, it's inescapable.
24:21In the news that about 39,
24:24I think of the 50 largest outbreaks
24:27in our country for COVID-19 are
24:29in correctional systems right now.
24:32Again,
24:32this is Cook County and then
24:35right now in the news.
24:37Is asking questions.
24:41And so the response has been,
24:43I think, really importantly,
24:45advocating for the early release,
24:47and so importantly,
24:49in could show the figures that Connecticut
24:52is an all time low in our state right now.
24:55Who's incarcerated?
24:56California's governor newsom?
24:57Also just announced the
24:59release of 8000 individuals,
25:01and for those of us that believe that
25:04prisons and jails are health harming
25:06that Dick Curation is really important.
25:09It should be news that we celebrate
25:11writes that if you're thinking
25:13about kind of how it is that we
25:15deconstruct an improve the health
25:17and well being of our communities,
25:19decent car situation is critical and
25:21I do want to then point out though,
25:24that the early release of incarcerated
25:26people actually can endanger lives.
25:27and I think that this is important to
25:30say out live out loud and really it
25:32implicates kind of what it is that we
25:35do within community health systems.
25:37So each week in clinic, as Anna
25:40referred to before we here in New Haven.
25:43And this is a picture of our team
25:45at Lisa Puglisi.
25:46She's an Internist.
25:47Jerry Smart,
25:48one of our community health workers
25:50in a patient of ours take care of
25:53people that have come home from
25:55prisons and jails in Connecticut
25:56and this is a program again among
25:59many across the country that are
26:01really focused on targeted care
26:03and what we can see over and I've
26:05been doing this for decades now.
26:07Is that the return home from prisons
26:10and jails is nearly impossible.
26:12That, in fact,
26:13in spite of how bad health care is
26:16inside the construction of it peoples,
26:19chronic health conditions
26:20actually worsen following release.
26:22The rates of dying from overdose
26:25from heart disease, cancer,
26:26gun violence,
26:27suicide actually or incrementally
26:29higher following release,
26:30and so will we see in clinic or
26:33barrier's appan barriers where patients
26:35at actually don't have safe places to stay.
26:39Can't get food.
26:40Can't get jobs here in New Haven
26:43and this has been augmented that
26:45much more in during COVID-19.
26:48We've worked hard to kind of slowly,
26:50iteratively,
26:51and incrementally building the systems.
26:53How do we get folks phones,
26:55for instance,
26:55right to actually be able to
26:57do a telemedicine visit?
26:59What if they've never had medications?
27:01And if they live in a city in
27:03Connecticut where there isn't
27:05a transitions clinic program,
27:06how do we get appropriate access
27:09to the medications they need to
27:11the discharge that they need?
27:12And so I guess the point that I
27:15really wanted to kind of make
27:17with my reflections here is that.
27:20Hum so much of the energy and
27:23enthusiasm around kind of decarceration
27:26abolition is really focused on
27:29defunding these kind of impact.
27:32Hanging our hats on just this
27:34one moment in time and to me what
27:36undergirds kind of the work that
27:38we need to do to really quote
27:41abolish prisons and jails,
27:42is the work that we need to be
27:44doing in the health systems.
27:46How do we provide the vital
27:48supports that are needed?
27:50Do we really welcome our patients
27:52that come from these correctional
27:53systems that are kind of?
27:55Again, this second class system of
27:57healthcare into our community health system.
27:59The medical students raised
28:01important points and I think.
28:02You know just thinking about in this isn't
28:04a photo from the primary care center,
28:06but all over Yo New Haven Hospital.
28:09Is this welcoming to have a person
28:11that armed in our health system?
28:14How does that make our patients feel right?
28:17Why is it that we have Medicaid terminate
28:19when people come home from Corrections?
28:22How can we create systems that are more
28:24embracing of patients that are coming
28:27home from these correctional systems
28:29that are so structurally violent?
28:31And how do we make our systems
28:34are less violent and so the last
28:36thing I'd say is this is that.
28:39I had the opportunity to listen to
28:4116 to the beautiful kind of 1619
28:44podcasts and there was one episode
28:47focused I think was episode 5 on
28:49the health care
28:50system and tracing
28:52alluded to this that in 1865 the
28:54Friedmans Bureau became the nations first
28:56federally supported healthcare system.
28:58It was interesting Lee,
29:00when you turn into the tune into the podcast,
29:03it was created in response to outbreaks
29:06again and Infectious Diseases.
29:07So you can think about the
29:10historical parallel so.
29:11Dysentery and smallpox at the time
29:13that emerged after Mansa patient.
29:14So his concerns about
29:16the community that then.
29:18This healthcare system was bored, however,
29:21he was structured such that there was
29:23100 physicians taking care of the four
29:26million previously enslaved workers
29:27who are now largely without housing,
29:30food, employment, and you know,
29:32then they also had incrementally
29:33high risks of dying compared
29:35with the general population.
29:37And so to me,
29:39thinking about this moment in history,
29:41and I really do think we're in
29:43a moment like it does excite me.
29:46I've been doing this for a decade more.
29:49But there is mass at larger
29:52scale decarceration going on,
29:53but for this to be really successful
29:55we have to interrogate ourselves.
29:57What it is that we ourselves as provider?
30:00But even more importantly,
30:02as systems and as communities are doing
30:04to scale at the health systems that are
30:06needed to provide these vital supports.
30:13Thank you so much. Think we now have.
30:17Sidney green with discuss a.
30:24Also, thank you so much to doctor
30:27Wang and professor mirrors.
30:29Um, Doctor Wang. I really appreciate
30:31you sharing those photos on.
30:33I think that especially in this moment,
30:36with abolition being all over social
30:39media and it can feel like a very
30:42abstract thing and we have to remember
30:44that we're talking about real people,
30:47real families and lives.
30:49And so I really appreciate you.
30:52Bringing that to us today
30:55and professor mirrors.
30:56Um again, I'm I.
30:58I really appreciate you bringing a both
31:01of you brought in historical perspective,
31:04but I really do appreciate and you really
31:07connecting this moment as we use abolition.
31:10It's a historical term and we have
31:13to remember that we're not done once
31:16this system is so called abolished,
31:19but that even as we think about.
31:23Reconstructing or re allocating funds.
31:25We have to remember that the
31:27threat of anti black,
31:29white supremacist violence is
31:31is there and that there we
31:33can't be passive in this moment.
31:36We have to remember that.
31:38There's going to be something
31:40that comes next,
31:41and so I really appreciate both of you.
31:44For that,
31:45I wanted to 1st as contextualize why
31:47kind of how I came into consciousness,
31:50and I want to invite both of
31:53you to reflect on that moment
31:55for yourselves as well.
31:57So when I graduated from college.
31:59I'm originally from Florida and I
32:01moved back to Florida to Tallahassee,
32:03FL and this was in 2013 on around the
32:06same time as the free Marissa now movement.
32:10And so Marissa Alexander,
32:12for those of you who don't know,
32:15um,
32:15is a black woman who at the time
32:18was facing 20 years in prison for
32:22firing a warning shot up in her
32:25own house in her own garage to
32:28protect herself from her husband
32:30who admitted on tape in a court
32:33deposition that he not only abused her,
32:36but that he would have killed
32:39her if given the opportunity.
32:42And this was also, um,
32:44just after Trayvon Martin was murdered,
32:46and his murderer,
32:47whose name I'm I'm just not going to use a,
32:51was able to get off on the
32:54stand your ground law.
32:56And that law was not applied to Marissa
32:59Alexander, a black woman situation.
33:01And so she successfully appealed.
33:03And then the state attorney at the time,
33:07Angela Corey.
33:09Essentially said that not only would
33:11she retry this woman, but with,
33:14uh, she she sought retribution.
33:16And so instead of giving her if she
33:19were to sentence her 20 years Marissa,
33:22now phase three consecutive 20 year
33:24sentences so she would have been
33:27imprisoned for 60 years and she had
33:30potentially 60 years and she had children.
33:33and I was just very
33:35frustrated that pediatricians.
33:36For example, we're not talking about how.
33:39Awful.
33:40This would be for her children,
33:42or OB GY NS talking about how putting
33:45someone who is immediately postpartum
33:47into prison was not something
33:49that would be promoted promoting.
33:52And so I really uhm latch
33:54onto this movement of,
33:56you know, there really is no case where
33:59police are OK that putting people in
34:02prisons and jails are not OK. Not in,
34:05not in the system that we have now and so.
34:10I kind of shifted my my research to
34:13really be thinking about how the
34:16health system is really implicated in
34:19a lot of what is going on and that.
34:22Criminal criminalization an?
34:23Uhm, this term personality is not
34:26just limited to jails and prisons,
34:29but it's how we treat people before
34:33they get to that point as well.
34:36and I want to kind of just connect
34:39that to an article that came out in
34:432017 in Pediatrics Journal that was
34:47promoting the use of a new algorithm,
34:50and this algorithm would allow
34:53pediatricians too.
34:54Predict whether their teenage
34:55patients would be future perpetrators
34:57of intimate partner violence in
34:59order to funnel them into these
35:01intensive prevention programs.
35:03And not only was this article published
35:06in Pediatrics the leading Journal,
35:08but the editor of the Journal wrote a
35:11perspective piece lauding this paper.
35:13And so I really want us to,
35:16kind of as we go through this conversation.
35:19Those of us who are are in health
35:22care who are training or otherwise.
35:25I'm already providers to really think about
35:29how we are complicit in this and that as.
35:33You know the the abolition movement.
35:35Defund movement looks to send funding
35:37to our way of finding our way to,
35:40uhm,
35:41you know whether it's mental health
35:43or some other reason we have to make
35:46sure that we're doing the work to
35:48ensure that we are not recreating
35:50the same systems that we claim
35:53to be abolishing into funding.
35:54So I'm going to stop there,
35:57but I just want to again think
35:59doctor Wang and professor mirrors
36:00for being here and really starting
36:03this conversation for us.
36:08Thank you all for such eloquent
36:11and profound reflections, and.
36:15Only opens up more questions for us.
36:17Um, I see we have one question so far
36:20and then I have some questions as well.
36:23But let's start with the
36:24one that was submitted.
36:26My remarkable colleague,
36:27Doctor Ayana Jordan made a
36:28call that we should avoid the
36:30term criminal justice system.
36:31Since the system is hardly just and
36:33instead call it the criminal legal system,
36:36I'm interested to hear what the
36:38panelists think of this and how we
36:40might best be ambassadors of changing
36:42this language in a widespread way.
36:45So we'll start with that.
36:47Um,
36:47I'll jump in. I think I actually
36:49referred to it as the criminal
36:51legal system in in my remarks, uhm?
36:54I think that that's Fair.
36:56It's a fair description, but if we're
37:00really going to break the term down,
37:03I don't think we even call it a criminal
37:07legal system because it's not a system,
37:10right? So really it is, you know,
37:13a set of criminal legal processes,
37:15and I think you know the questioner says,
37:19well, how can we make this change?
37:22I think increasingly, if you look at.
37:25Um, what folks are writing an in my
37:28field and even in public writing,
37:31and a couple of op eds I just wrote,
37:34you know, I've been using that term instead.
37:37I think it's it's an important thing to say,
37:41but. Say lose the conjunction.
37:45Period, it is also the case that, uhm.
37:49It is critical for people to understand all
37:54the ways that how we talk about this set.
37:58Of issues an institutions that lead to the
38:02consequences that we were talking about,
38:05in that only wonk.
38:07Um gave us such incredible photographic
38:11evidence about is not what we think it is,
38:15and to the extent that it's systematic,
38:19it is not systematic about
38:21delivering justice.
38:22It's systematic about reinforcing the system,
38:25which that is a system of
38:29racism and inequality.
38:36You know, I'll echo this,
38:38which I think that you know
38:41language is really important and
38:43you know how we define the system.
38:46You know, appreciate Ayana and
38:48really thinking about kind of
38:51not using the term justice.
38:53I also much of what I think we can work on.
38:59In our own worlds is also and
39:01stuff that we work on at within.
39:04You know the work that we do in our lab,
39:07but also even the NIH recently at
39:09night has used person centered
39:11language to stop using kind of terms,
39:14like prisoners inmates instead using
39:16people with history symbol culturation.
39:17These are kind of important ways that
39:19you do start shifting narratives of
39:22people that have been incarcerated,
39:24and I just tell a story,
39:26which is to say within epic.
39:29Oftentimes,
39:29you'll note like how people
39:31right and describe individuals,
39:32of course,
39:33really does influence the care
39:35that they are receiving.
39:37The care that we deliver that I've often
39:39seen notations where you know people have.
39:42There's actually a critical warning
39:44list of a section sex offender.
39:46Write a sex offender and you
39:48know bring up kind of an extreme
39:51case to illustrate my point,
39:53which is that not being a legal expert,
39:56I will just say this though that there are.
39:59Many ways.
40:00By which you are convicted of a sex
40:03offense and those include you know it
40:06from the extreme version that are presented.
40:09You know that we can all imagine
40:12to ones of 14 years old having sex
40:15with a another teen years old,
40:18right?
40:18And so the importance though,
40:20that if our own healthcare system
40:22labeling people in the health record and
40:25how that perpetuates other narratives,
40:28I think is critical for again.
40:31Abolishing an at the impacts,
40:33you know like ending prisons and jails,
40:36and then also creating the systems
40:39that then support the people
40:41that have been incarcerated.
40:43That language is critically important.
40:49The question about um,
40:51how not only to avoid the term
40:54justice where it's not merited,
40:56but to work towards something else.
40:59Calls into question What is this?
41:01Something else?
41:02So um, you've all talked about abolition
41:05and really compelling ways in the fact that
41:09our current approaches are not just at all.
41:11Can you say something about
41:13what we're working towards?
41:14What would justice look like in in a
41:17better universe that we're working toward?
41:19And also, how would crime be handled?
41:21How would we think about pride?
41:23I'm sure that's a question that people have.
41:31Want me to go? Yeah, the prime when
41:33I'm looking at you, Tracy.
41:36Well, but I think it it's part
41:38of the same question, right?
41:40That they're talking about
41:42crime is answering the question
41:44about what replaces it up, and
41:46again, you know. I
41:48think what replaces it is the
41:52set of public goods to which
41:55every citizen is entitled and.
41:58Um? You know, averting crime is
42:01part of that set of public goods,
42:05and there is a set of public goods that
42:08is necessary to avert those things.
42:11And it turns out that people who
42:13are experiencing high incidences
42:15of violence in their neighborhood,
42:18plus the states,
42:19typical response to that violence,
42:21which is often excess from the state.
42:25Can articulate very clearly what
42:27it is that they want, um,
42:30so I have a project.
42:32If you go to the Justice Collaboratory
42:35website, you'll see a project
42:38called the portals project.
42:40We also have our own website
42:42portalspolicingprojectoneword.com, in which.
42:44Hi, along with political scientist,
42:47special Weaver and our grad
42:49student when prouse Here at Yale,
42:51have curated a set of conversations among
42:54residents of the cities of Baltimore,
42:57Newark, Chicago, Milwaukee,
42:59Los Angeles, Mexico City,
43:00where they're talking about their
43:02experiences with both violence in
43:05their neighborhood and police.
43:07And you know,
43:08they talk about what they want in
43:11their vision of of safety right now.
43:14Maybe what they don't know exactly.
43:18How to do is how to get there like
43:21what it is that the state is going to
43:23do to ensure that they get those sets
43:26of public goods that they need and
43:29the governance project is difficult.
43:31It's made more difficult by the fact
43:33that we've invested in a certain
43:35set of responses that don't look
43:37anything like the set of public
43:39goods to which people are entitled.
43:41But to say that we don't know
43:43what it looks like.
43:45We know
43:45what it looks like.
43:48We do. This is not heart.
43:52What's hard is that it requires
43:54many people to give up things that
43:57they're not used to giving up.
43:59Including privilege.
44:02And I'm going to answer that question in
44:05a different way, but which is to say,
44:07you know, you know what?
44:09What does it look like? and I can?
44:11Having worked in health system,
44:13it's not what it looks like in
44:15our health system right now.
44:17It just isn't right.
44:18It's not what it looks like in almost
44:20any health system in this country,
44:22and so that just .1 that.
44:24I don't want people to leave this.
44:26Saying that.
44:27Oh yeah, just the health
44:28system is the solution listed.
44:30Sure, on up we know what we're doing,
44:32'cause we don't.
44:34That's when two.
44:35I do want to just emphasize Tracy's point,
44:38which is that when and in our work we
44:41really do try to center the perspectives,
44:44needs and values of those
44:46who've been incarcerated in our
44:48work and time and time again,
44:50there are solutions that already
44:52exists that are grounded within
44:54those communities that are
44:55important and their ones that do
44:57require shifting of power and the
44:59kind of most concrete solution.
45:01And it's entering black folks in particular.
45:04In this is the hiring of people that
45:07have assets and skills to work in our
45:10health systems as community health workers,
45:12right?
45:12So you know,
45:13just most fundamental level you're like.
45:15OK,
45:16it's getting a job,
45:17and it's an important job,
45:19likely often in our network,
45:21it's to a person of color to
45:23work in our health system,
45:25but then it also shifts how the health
45:27system forces kind of employment policies,
45:29practices that are really
45:31racist in their construction.
45:32It also changes kind of the physical look of.
45:35Who works in our health system that
45:38these are experts that we value
45:40and it's in that that inclusion
45:42of those individuals that changes
45:44the policies that we see a less
45:46racist at healthcare system,
45:48and so to me.
45:49Part of this work is really centering
45:51the work that we do in the health system.
45:55The work we do in our research,
45:57the work that we're doing historically around
46:00kind of narratives that were never told.
46:02There never involved.
46:03Included in the health system space
46:05and finding solutions that exist there.
46:07That to me is.
46:09Is part of our way forward.
46:11What that looks like.
46:12Look,
46:12I've not been incarcerated
46:13but I am surrounded by people
46:15that had been incarcerated and
46:17there are solutions to be had.
46:21Thank you the next I think you've
46:23begun to answer the next question,
46:26which is how can legal and health
46:28care experts or service provider
46:30support needed economic reforms?
46:31Abolishing existing economic arrangements?
46:33But I wonder if you would both
46:37like to expand on that and perhaps
46:39even add something from your own
46:42work as legal and medical scholars.
46:45Had he approached these tasks
46:46in your own work?
46:51So I'll start just 'cause I'm unmuted,
46:53so I'll say that you know,
46:55and I I might be misquoting, so yeah,
46:58but when I last looked up, you know,
47:01went out of six new jobs in this
47:03country are in the healthcare sector.
47:061 out of $3 for GDP,
47:08or from the again the healthcare sector.
47:10And so to me, some of what we can be
47:13doing mostly is hiring up, you know,
47:16and that creates economic opportunities
47:18that might feel really incremental it,
47:20but I think it's.
47:21Really critical to just say that
47:23out loud that in in New Haven where
47:26the unemployment rates are high,
47:28especially in certain communities
47:29and where the top three employers,
47:31the University,
47:32the health system and the medical school,
47:34what do we do in the higher?
47:37How do we support?
47:38And so this is real concrete?
47:40II is the community investments that
47:42the hospitals have to make really
47:44have to be focused and targeted?
47:46It's not to any old community service agency,
47:49but targeted kind of with a
47:51HealthEquity anti blackness frame.
47:53In mind,
47:53and those are ways that you get
47:56dollars into communities it.
48:00The engine that runs our community, right?
48:05You know, I'll just add a couple of other
48:09things so the justices collaboratory,
48:11of which Emily is a member,
48:14is an interdisciplinary
48:15Research Center that we focus.
48:17Our motto is serious science,
48:19serious impact,
48:20so we do a lot of basic science to
48:23interrogate an advanced theories
48:25around how members of the public
48:27understand the fairness and legitimacy
48:30of different legal authorities,
48:32including police.
48:33That's where we've done most of our work.
48:36But not exclusively,
48:38and those theories are apply
48:40outside of the institutions that
48:42process people through what we call
48:45the criminal legal system that
48:48it's applicable to corporations.
48:50It's applicable to public schools.
48:52My colleague Tom Tyler has written a
48:55book called why children follow rules.
48:58It's relevant to those of you who
49:01have children and who parent, right.
49:04It is a theory of general applicability.
49:08And we have taken that science
49:11and develop policy that could
49:14be used in different agencies.
49:17We've developed trainings
49:18for police agencies.
49:20We have translated it to model
49:24statutes we just started.
49:26A clinic where we hired someone very
49:29able person from New York City who
49:32is actually going to be developing
49:35a bunch of model legislation that
49:37we hope will be adopted by states
49:41all over the country so that
49:44these policies will be adopted.
49:47Municipalities and so on.
49:48There's lots of different things
49:51you can do an we have to do.
49:53All of them actually you know when
49:56you're talking about the kind of
49:58advocacy that the question or ask.
50:00It requires actually wholesale reengineering.
50:04Of the legislative structure
50:07that underlies these systems
50:09will just give you 1 example.
50:12Most policing agencies in this country don't
50:15have any serious enabling legislation,
50:17so think about something like
50:19the Department of Labor.
50:21You can look in a state statute.
50:26Connecticut State statues.
50:27You can see the enabling legislation
50:29of that Department that says
50:31what it's supposed to do,
50:33says what its constraints are,
50:35says what the rules are
50:36that actually regulate it.
50:38You're not gonna find anything
50:40like that for policing.
50:41As a general matter.
50:42Another thing you'll hear in the
50:44news that there are something like
50:46depends on where you read at 17,018
50:49thousand different policing agencies,
50:51I'm focusing on policing
50:52'cause That's what I know best,
50:55but we can have a similar conversation
50:57around different institutions.
50:58It is not the case that we actually
51:01know that there are exactly 18,000
51:04police agencies. That's a guess.
51:06It's an approximation.
51:07We actually don't know,
51:09and that is because in this country
51:11the federal government doesn't require
51:14policing agencies to be accredited.
51:16It doesn't actually require agencies
51:18to report to the federal government.
51:21You know their activities.
51:23There's no auditing mechanism.
51:24The Department of civil rights only
51:27gets involved when there is a pattern
51:30and practice of constitutional violation.
51:32Go to any other country in the world.
51:36In Europe you would not see that right,
51:39and so you know when you talk
51:42about are there things that we
51:44can do that there are so many
51:47things and so much that can be
51:49done and that is necessary to do.
51:53If there's if we're going to make a change.
51:59Thanks so much. So we have two questions
52:02that seem to go together and I I'll just
52:05take a moment to read them both. Uh,
52:07when we look at the history of this country,
52:10the current system in place is rooted
52:12in the D humanization of black,
52:14Brown and indigenous bodies.
52:15The system is not only the result of
52:18over funding, but it is supported.
52:20I assume of carceral system,
52:22but it supported in perpetuated
52:23by individuals and groups.
52:24How how can we work to prevent
52:26these groups from continuing
52:28to perpetuate these systems?
52:29Even after we defend abolish
52:31these detrimental systems?
52:32Then the second question related to that,
52:35can you address the antiblackness
52:36ideologies that come along with the white
52:39supremacist crushing of reconstruction?
52:40The idea that black people are criminals
52:43are lazy are inherently unworthy of
52:45citizenship and basic human rights is
52:47deeply entrenched up to the present.
52:49Seems to me this is a big obstacle
52:52for carrying the abolition of
52:54defending conversation forward,
52:55so it's not just coming up with
52:58policies rooted and Justice,
52:59but convincing a good number of white people,
53:02ordinary citizens and politicians.
53:04That Bipap deserve justice.
53:05How do we get there?
53:14Very small question.
53:19Can you repeat the the sentence
53:22about it's not just justice but the?
53:25OK, it's not just coming up
53:28with policies rooted and justice,
53:30but convincing a good number of white people.
53:34Ordinary people and politicians
53:36that by puck deserve justice.
53:39How do we get there? That is a
53:42conversation that's rooted in justice,
53:45like the writing of that. Actually.
53:50To me doesn't I don't understand.
53:54That phrase to say that it's not just
53:57a conversation rooted in justice
53:59because justice actually requires
54:01ordinary people to understand.
54:05That the the air that we breathe.
54:09The the the structure of the system,
54:12and I'm not talking about,
54:14you know how the criminal
54:16legal system operates,
54:17the structure of what we live in
54:20is unjust and has been unjust.
54:23And continues to be unjust.
54:26That's the work I I actually
54:29think the answer is embedded in
54:33the questioners question, but.
54:36By not by rearranging the words
54:39and saying it's not just that
54:41actually it is just that.
54:45In my view. And I don't mean to put
54:49the question are on. Um? You know?
54:55I'm not trying to cast aspersions or or
54:58shade or anything, but that's that's it.
55:01A social psychologist so
55:02you know my dear friend.
55:04Also adjust his collaboratory member.
55:06Yes, this is gonna be the advertisement
55:08for the justice collaboratory.
55:10Jenn Richeson would say.
55:12That that is the work and the
55:16work that people like me do.
55:19Is really to push against.
55:23The air that we breathe.
55:25You know it's the psychologists
55:28of race and racial. Injustice.
55:31Who can pinpoint?
55:36The dynamic that the
55:38questioner is is discussing.
55:41Right and and and we can do all kinds
55:45of work to point out the most egregious.
55:49Instances of this dynamic. But until.
55:56But you know that the aspects
55:59of the world that we live in,
56:03that people, many people,
56:04many white people don't
56:06notice or don't acknowledge,
56:07aren't willing to work to change changes.
56:10Then yeah, it's going to be really hard.
56:16So I'd love to open this question
56:19up to doctor Wang as well,
56:22but I'm thinking that the
56:24questioners are interested in
56:25any examples of strategies or
56:28languages or techniques that you,
56:30you and your colleagues have come across.
56:33The help to broaden
56:34support for this movement.
56:41Um, let you mean in particular for.
56:47You know, we've tried it all.
56:49I mean I, I uh, you know any
56:51way possible and it ranges from
56:53kind of at the individual level.
56:55You know, I can just give
56:57you really concrete stories,
56:58which is to say that most people in
57:01our white or health care communities
57:02wouldn't necessarily even know you know
57:04person that's been incarcerated until
57:06a person like Jerry Smart comes along
57:08and he's well dressed and looks good.
57:10And you know, I hate to name him,
57:13but he is the first in New Haven and
57:15then their stun Steadies Bennett.
57:17Caressa rated.
57:18And then they're, like you know,
57:19whispering on the side always been
57:21incarcerated, and they look him up.
57:23And then they realize,
57:24like have more interactions with him.
57:26He has a son and it still the mixing
57:28an literally having to interact.
57:31That these conversations start to change.
57:32That's on the individual level.
57:34Then on, you know,
57:35kind of the next level is trying
57:37to make arguments that are
57:39principled and costs human rights.
57:40You know, like what is it?
57:42The health disparities?
57:43How it is that kind of improving all
57:46our Hells also has to improve, right?
57:48The very fundamental nature is that
57:50having kind of a more equitable
57:53health system helps us all.
57:55Period Punto, you know, ends part.
57:58I mean,
57:58I think we've tried all sorts
58:00of different strategies,
58:02but I do think at the root of it is.
58:08To me, you know we have study after study.
58:15After study after study and Lord
58:17knows we've thought about study
58:19after study after study after study,
58:21taking a cost lands at human rate.
58:23Slaying a, you know, again,
58:25trying to think about interventions
58:27that are asset space.
58:28Getting a night running,
58:29whatever it is and to me when
58:32you know the hearts and minds of
58:34ordinary people out there start
58:36to shift is once they've.
58:38You know, at least in my experience,
58:40start meeting and talking to an
58:42really kind of humanizing and
58:44changing the narrative.
58:45Black folks, you know?
58:48And that is not an easy task.
58:51When we live segregated lives
58:53period and in the health system
58:56you know it's just the obvious,
58:58it's abundant.
59:00You know, I'd like to say it just
59:03one other thing since I invoked
59:05Jennifer Richeson. Uhm, who uhm?
59:09Has a new piece coming out in the.
59:12In the Atlantic monthly, the print.
59:16Version of it, so it's going to be out.
59:18Pretty soon, if it's not already out,
59:22but one of the things she writes about
59:25is the myth of racial progress, right?
59:29And the idea that. You know?
59:33Things are better for we've been
59:35focusing primarily on black people,
59:38so I just wanna take a moment and say,
59:42you know that a lot of the issues
59:44that we are discussing today are not
59:47exclusive to black people or specifically
59:50descendants of enslaved people.
59:53as I am it.
59:54Also, it is experienced by Brown people.
59:59Asian focus.
01:00:02In in this country, in particular,
01:00:04natives and indigenous people.
01:00:06So I just wanted to point that out.
01:00:09But anyway, the social psychology that
01:00:12research focuses primarily on black people,
01:00:15and an when we're talking about the
01:00:18myth of racial project progress,
01:00:20that's what she's talking about then.
01:00:23And one of the things we find is
01:00:27that when whites in particular
01:00:30are given evidence about.
01:00:33Racial progress instead of
01:00:35understanding the extent to which
01:00:38how bad things were in historically,
01:00:41they actually revise their understanding
01:00:44of history such that they come to
01:00:48conclusions that the situation
01:00:50historically wasn't as bad as they thought,
01:00:54which provides less of an impetus
01:00:57to do the kinds of things that
01:01:01are necessary today to create.
01:01:04True equality,
01:01:05and the reason why that's important
01:01:07is that you know when folks are
01:01:10asking about things they can do,
01:01:12and I think this connects up with
01:01:14what Emily was saying about studies.
01:01:17It suggests that there are, well,
01:01:19if we could just do this one thing,
01:01:22or if we could, in our NIH applications,
01:01:25the thing that you and I were
01:01:28talking about a week or so ago,
01:01:31Emily do the thing where we have, uh?
01:01:34Another person of color or an
01:01:37underrepresented minority added
01:01:39onto our grant,
01:01:40or if we could just have slightly
01:01:43more you know, diverse uhm.
01:01:46Professoriate and the medical school.
01:01:48There are,
01:01:49like you know these little things
01:01:52than that's all we need to do.
01:01:55I don't want to.
01:01:56Make light or say that those things are
01:01:59not important to do 'cause they are,
01:02:02but those are little things that you
01:02:05do to respond to the systematic.
01:02:09Situation of profound racial injustice
01:02:11that we have in this country today,
01:02:14and we've had for a very long time that
01:02:17is really not going to be undermined.
01:02:21Until people stop being first of all,
01:02:25recognize that reality and then stop engaging
01:02:29in actions that continue to support it.
01:02:33Because everything else is like remediation.
01:02:36I think I just wanted to add that I
01:02:40think it. It also takes.
01:02:41I mean people are asking about on
01:02:44the individual level as well and
01:02:46it takes re framing the way you
01:02:49talk about these things right?
01:02:50And so you know I mentioned earlier
01:02:53about not being passive but being like
01:02:55active about things and not picking
01:02:58on the person who gave the question.
01:03:00But I'm just using it as an example
01:03:03because it's a concrete example.
01:03:05You know, think about.
01:03:06The difference between saying that
01:03:08black people or by a black indigenous
01:03:11people have colored deserve justice,
01:03:13and saying that they've been denied justice,
01:03:16right? That this is an on.
01:03:19This is an ongoing action,
01:03:21and that the positions that people are in,
01:03:24particularly black people,
01:03:25indigenous people in the US.
01:03:28They're not there because they're
01:03:30innately find themselves there that
01:03:32these situations are not inevitable,
01:03:34but they're based on a series
01:03:36of decisions and.
01:03:38Ongoing decision-making,
01:03:38both historically and presently
01:03:40that create the spaces that were in,
01:03:42and so if you think of it as that
01:03:44kind of like ongoing living,
01:03:46breathing history, right?
01:03:47It's not just something that happened
01:03:50and ended that you yourself you can
01:03:52put yourself into that and that you
01:03:54are a part of that and every decision
01:03:56that you make can also shift in
01:03:59whichever direction you wanted to go
01:04:01in a direction you may not want to go in,
01:04:04and so just being cognizant on that,
01:04:06it's not something you can like.
01:04:08Alright,
01:04:08I shut that book and that that
01:04:10door is closed until someone
01:04:11asked me about it again,
01:04:13but it's a part of every every small
01:04:15and large decision that you make.
01:04:20I think that Sidney,
01:04:21which is I do think, like Lord knows,
01:04:24I think about kind of actions that
01:04:26made big and small that you know,
01:04:28have repercussions over lifetime
01:04:29and it just did it right. But it is.
01:04:32This is what we've got right is just
01:04:34making decisions over and over again.
01:04:36Some that are bigger, some that push
01:04:38forward but always having kind of.
01:04:43An anti racist. An increasingly more so how
01:04:45it is that you move through this world.
01:04:47So it's the frustration about the diversity
01:04:50supplements and we don't have to go there
01:04:52that Tracy and I were talking about,
01:04:54which is like what a joke.
01:04:55And yes, of course you'll do it so.
01:04:59Anyhow. Thanks for that city.
01:05:04Thank you, um, actually there
01:05:06are two questions that I seem,
01:05:08I think go together because they
01:05:10refer to the intergenerational impact
01:05:12of incarceration and violence.
01:05:13So the first one is based on Sydney's
01:05:16comments about women and postpartum.
01:05:18Can you both speak?
01:05:19And I'd also like to invite Sydney
01:05:22to speak about one pre post Natal
01:05:24care for incarcerated women and ways
01:05:26to support healthcare and family
01:05:28rights for children born in prison.
01:05:31How can we address work or work toward?
01:05:34Quality care during early childhood
01:05:36for children of the incarcerated
01:05:38and then the second one.
01:05:40I would like to hear more about the
01:05:43connections between domestic violence
01:05:44as a means to frustrate people,
01:05:47often victims themselves and
01:05:49the intergenerational trauma's
01:05:51created that perpetuate and uphold
01:05:53a cycle of incarceration.
01:05:55So all three of you I invite you to reflect.
01:05:57Thank you.
01:06:00That sounds like Emily and
01:06:02Sydney's Bailiwick to me.
01:06:09Sidney go for it.
01:06:12Um? So I I want to start by saying that, um.
01:06:18Initially when I I saw I think there were
01:06:21like documentaries about these kind of
01:06:23like child care daycare Centers for women
01:06:26and children who are born in prison.
01:06:29I thought wow, what a great idea that we
01:06:31can keep mothers and babies together.
01:06:34But then you step back and you think about
01:06:37what's happening that were saying that
01:06:40it's OK for women to give birth while
01:06:43they're incarcerated that as long as we
01:06:46keep them together in prison that it's.
01:06:48Or in jail that it's OK, um,
01:06:51for a child to grow up in,
01:06:53at least for a small part of time
01:06:56in a prison.
01:06:57and I think that that 100% is not OK, right?
01:07:00It's kind of this, like a band aid issue.
01:07:04Again of saying that, like, OK,
01:07:06we're going to keep people together, but why?
01:07:08Why are we not pushing to keep people
01:07:11together outside of the prison, right?
01:07:13So I just wanted to say that 'cause I think,
01:07:17especially in healthcare, that like we.
01:07:19You know, we think of this idea,
01:07:21and doctor Wang brought this up as well,
01:07:24but the idea that you know people
01:07:26who are incarcerated,
01:07:27the only ones with the constitutional right
01:07:30to healthcare instead of saying You know,
01:07:32think about.
01:07:33Let's think beyond just saying like
01:07:35it's great that people were in person.
01:07:37You can get healthcare right?
01:07:39Let's think,
01:07:40think,
01:07:40think about what we were saying when
01:07:43we make those those comments.
01:07:44So I wanted to add that in terms of.
01:07:49The kind of intergenerational trauma
01:07:52or people who become involved with the
01:07:55criminal legal system through domestic
01:07:58violence and sexual soul in any kind
01:08:01of other intimate partner violence is.
01:08:04I think that there is a long history
01:08:08of women, particularly women,
01:08:09of color, who, uhm?
01:08:11Who are work network then advocated for
01:08:15this for women as women in particular?
01:08:19But I'm. I'm thinking I brought him.
01:08:22That's a cyst trans and Nonbinary
01:08:24people as well to not become justice
01:08:28involved because they have are
01:08:30victims of a particular violence on.
01:08:33And so I'm thinking of groups
01:08:36like survived and punish.
01:08:38You've seen women like since we're proud who?
01:08:42And, uh,
01:08:43end up being incarcerated because
01:08:45they retaliate against, uh,
01:08:46a perpetrator.
01:08:47And again, we want to think like we want.
01:08:50How can we be making it so that people
01:08:53are not even getting to the point
01:08:56where they have to retaliate, right?
01:08:58Anne?
01:08:59I'm yes like in there is trauma
01:09:02intergenerationally but uhm I just I.
01:09:04I think that we just sometimes
01:09:06take for granted that,
01:09:08like as we're kind of like putting band aids,
01:09:11and I mean Doctor Wang,
01:09:13you work with people who
01:09:15have recently been released.
01:09:16And yes,
01:09:17those people need care.
01:09:19But I think that those of us who
01:09:21are not working in that situation,
01:09:24we can really want to push
01:09:26ourselves to be thinking like the
01:09:28stuff that happened before that.
01:09:30And so like what?
01:09:32Uh, a lot of these groups and they
01:09:34talk about you know that violence
01:09:37happens because there's something
01:09:38wanting in the community, right?
01:09:40and I think we should be thinking about that,
01:09:44whether it's education, whether it's jobs,
01:09:46whether it's health care, etc.
01:09:47So I'm sorry.
01:09:48I'm like kind of like rambling,
01:09:51but I think I want to just
01:09:53point out survived and punish.
01:09:55I want to point out insight which is women
01:09:58against violence against women color.
01:10:00Ann Lee.
01:10:01Goodmark,
01:10:01who's written a book called
01:10:03criminalizing from a domestic violence,
01:10:05which really goes in depth and
01:10:07from a legal perspective on
01:10:09what the alternatives can be.
01:10:15Great Sidney, you know,
01:10:17I wanted to think about 2 two issues
01:10:20that those comments have me reflect
01:10:22on and you know I get that the
01:10:25person that wrote the comments was
01:10:27really focused on domestic violence.
01:10:29But I think violence period is something
01:10:31important to attend to and even how you know.
01:10:34Going back to Jeanette's comment
01:10:36about how we do market language and
01:10:39many of us I'd say especially in
01:10:41the medical community are really
01:10:43OK with the car's rating,
01:10:45quote, Unquote, Nonviolent.
01:10:46Folks like people that haven't
01:10:48committed violent offenses,
01:10:49and then within the categories of those that
01:10:52have been convicted of a violent offense,
01:10:55domestic violence.
01:10:56OK, that has the narrative
01:10:58of were OK with this right?
01:11:01That's OK, maybe,
01:11:02maybe not right as as Denise
01:11:05pointing out and to me I think again,
01:11:08these wholesale distinctions are
01:11:09difficult and really are anchoring
01:11:11ourselves in untenable kind of solutions.
01:11:14Which is to say,
01:11:15you know to.
01:11:17To say that you're one for abolition or
01:11:19thinking about you all recognize that
01:11:22prisons and jails are health harming,
01:11:24and so will only discuss rate
01:11:26certain individuals.
01:11:27Those that are non violent.
01:11:29It seems kind of it is to me entirely
01:11:32antithetical that we have to kind
01:11:34of come to a reckoning which,
01:11:36just to say that the whole system
01:11:38has been violent in its generation,
01:11:41that many of the of individuals,
01:11:43the majority individuals that have
01:11:45been convicted of violent crimes actually.
01:11:47Were victims of violence themselves right?
01:11:49And so to kind of create these
01:11:53distinctions I think are.
01:11:56That are important to recognize an
01:11:58important to recognize in our own
01:12:00narratives of how we think about
01:12:01ourselves as quote Unquote abolitionists,
01:12:04right, is that to me when I look at that.
01:12:08That connection is critical not just
01:12:10for those that have been victims
01:12:12of domestic violence,
01:12:13but victims of any sort of violence.
01:12:16And these are the very reasons for why,
01:12:19you know, just not sensible is a doctor,
01:12:21you know.
01:12:22You put a person that has been a victim
01:12:25of violence into a violent situation,
01:12:27which is prisons and jails.
01:12:29And of course that begets more violence,
01:12:31which then begets more violence
01:12:33and more violence.
01:12:34So the first I would say is that I
01:12:37certainly agree that you know incarceration.
01:12:39Um it creates intergenerational
01:12:41violence in all sorts of ways,
01:12:43not just for women,
01:12:45not just for pregnant women,
01:12:46but for all.
01:12:47For men that have committed
01:12:49the most heinous of crimes that
01:12:51were convicted and sentence and
01:12:53have served their sentence is.
01:12:56And we have to push our national
01:12:58dialogue to that that not just
01:13:01thinking about the pregnant women
01:13:03who are there and their children.
01:13:05That all folks that are incarcerated
01:13:08right now and how brutally violence?
01:13:11The system is and the health
01:13:13care system is one,
01:13:14and then the second is that you know.
01:13:17Of course these are intergenerational
01:13:19issues and so you know I kind of
01:13:22think these are kind of going to
01:13:23be intergenerational fixes to it
01:13:25is not going to be a quick and
01:13:28hurry you know we it took us.
01:13:30We had 40 years. We've ramped up.
01:13:32We've never done it well for
01:13:34communities of color ever,
01:13:35and in particular for black
01:13:37folks in this country ever.
01:13:38So who's to say that a quick
01:13:41defund the police?
01:13:42Listen to shifting the budgets.
01:13:43Gonna do this.
01:13:44This is about the hard and nasty
01:13:47work that we all have to do of
01:13:49interrogating what it is that we do.
01:13:51Is health care providers students is,
01:13:53you know, legal scholars, etc.
01:13:55And then getting done work
01:13:56and some things are going to
01:13:58work in some things aren't,
01:14:00but it is not going to be quick.
01:14:02It is intergenerational.
01:14:03I'm hoping you know for my kids
01:14:05generation it's their grandkids.
01:14:06100 years from now.
01:14:08This looks different.
01:14:10I mean,
01:14:10I'm hoping it looks different tomorrow,
01:14:12but realistically I feel like those
01:14:14are the two things that kind of
01:14:16stuck out with Nando's comments,
01:14:18which is that it's not just
01:14:20the violence of certain folks,
01:14:22but it's the system that's
01:14:24violent and you know,
01:14:25kind of partitioning off for
01:14:27these people that have committed
01:14:29violent crimes is.
01:14:31Also,
01:14:31harming kind of overall that's
01:14:34such a critical point, right?
01:14:36Such a critical point,
01:14:38because even if we change.
01:14:41It in could snap our fingers and have
01:14:44the kind of policing we wanted tomorrow,
01:14:47you know, or if prisons changed tomorrow,
01:14:50or if you know prosecution change
01:14:52tomorrow in the legal authority by
01:14:54which police are able to enforce arrest
01:14:57that leads people to incarcerate if
01:15:00settings and so on change tomorrow,
01:15:02an example of which Eric Garner
01:15:04lost his life because he was subject
01:15:07to forcible arrest for selling
01:15:09loose cigarettes on a corner.
01:15:12Even if you think that that
01:15:13should be some kind of violation,
01:15:15why on Earth should that be
01:15:17subject to forcible arrest,
01:15:18which leads to all of these things?
01:15:20OK, so even if all of those
01:15:23things change tomorrow?
01:15:24We're still left with the fragile,
01:15:28brittle communities today.
01:15:31Where there is poor health care where
01:15:33there is low educational attainment
01:15:35where there is inadequate housing where
01:15:38there are essential workers making you
01:15:40know much less than anyone's minimum
01:15:42wage that doesn't change tomorrow.
01:15:44Those places are still going to be
01:15:47places of concentrated violets are still
01:15:49going to be places that experience
01:15:51high rates of coronavirus infection.
01:15:54They are still going to be
01:15:56places of we can go on and on,
01:15:59which means that changing, you know.
01:16:01Getting the kind of policing
01:16:03we want tomorrow,
01:16:04we still have to deal with
01:16:06what we've got right now.
01:16:08And that's not going to be cheap,
01:16:11which gets back to these questions
01:16:13about who sacrificing what.
01:16:15It's going to cost,
01:16:16and what we're all willing to do.
01:16:22Disturb attack onto the topic of
01:16:25intergenerational interventions and
01:16:26also multi sector interventions.
01:16:28I hear you saying we need a comprehensive
01:16:32approach that goes beyond policing
01:16:35beyond criminal legal system.
01:16:37There's a question here.
01:16:38Can you speak more about the intersection
01:16:41with education and incarceration?
01:16:44What can parents and communities do when
01:16:47thinking about school systems pushing
01:16:50for change to prevent school to prison?
01:16:53Concerns and to get police out of schools.
01:16:57Also pediatricians role in school
01:16:59system in making sure children
01:17:01get appropriate supports that
01:17:03don't perpetuate disparities.
01:17:05Just while we're on the subject,
01:17:08any thoughts
01:17:09about that? Um, yeah, actually, uhm.
01:17:12Another member of the Justice
01:17:14Collaboratory is professor at the Graduate
01:17:16School of education at ruckers up,
01:17:19and we actually produce to a couple of year.
01:17:23I think it's actually on our website.
01:17:25Justice forward where we talk about the
01:17:29connection between education and all of these
01:17:32concepts that give you a little factoid.
01:17:34People spend a lot of time
01:17:37talking about teacher quality,
01:17:38and it's the link between that and
01:17:41children's attainment in schools.
01:17:43Critical, important.
01:17:44It turns out that some research shows
01:17:46that if we if we look at if we broaden
01:17:49the factors to look at all the things
01:17:52that are important to make sure that
01:17:54children get higher test scores and so on.
01:17:57There's some research showing
01:17:58that going to the dentist.
01:18:00Twice a year is produces more impact on
01:18:03children's grades than, quote unquote.
01:18:05A good teacher a doesn't mean,
01:18:07of course,
01:18:08that schools shouldn't care about
01:18:10making sure that teachers aren't as
01:18:12good as they can be within schools,
01:18:15but it don't show in the context
01:18:17of what you were talking about,
01:18:19multi institutions,
01:18:20the kinds of things that we need
01:18:23to do to make sure that children
01:18:25have the best outcomes aren't just
01:18:27about what happens in schools,
01:18:29even though those are the things
01:18:32that schools. Have control of.
01:18:33It's also the case that kids and the
01:18:36public generally receive education
01:18:38outside of the walls of schools,
01:18:41so you know this justice collaborate.
01:18:43Remember,
01:18:43I was just talking about Ben Justice and
01:18:46I wrote a piece called how the criminal
01:18:50justice system educate citizens, right?
01:18:52This is the kind of thing that
01:18:54we need to be thinking about,
01:18:57you know,
01:18:58to ensure making sure that people
01:19:00understand sort of the basics.
01:19:02Of you know the importance
01:19:05of what citizens deserve.
01:19:07You know, you know, collective thinking,
01:19:10the fact that you know that there's
01:19:12not only one kind of capitalism.
01:19:15For example,
01:19:16you know basics of history,
01:19:18you know the fact that I started this
01:19:21discussion about the relationship
01:19:24between abolition and reconstruction.
01:19:26Something that people generally don't know.
01:19:29A lot of people learned about
01:19:32the race massacre in Tulsa.
01:19:34Through Watchmen A TV show.
01:19:39Right?
01:19:39I lost the thread because I
01:19:42was getting worked up about.
01:19:44You know the important stuff
01:19:46you know educationally many sectors
01:19:50meeting. Yeah, produces it.
01:19:52But you know, we do know that having you
01:19:57know violence in schools, whether it's.
01:20:00Having police um, doing that or uhm,
01:20:03the in a violence among the kids
01:20:06because they live the schools are
01:20:09located in violent context is.
01:20:12It impedes educational attainment,
01:20:14which leads to a lot of the other factors
01:20:18that we were just talking about it.
01:20:21It's interesting that an I feel heart,
01:20:24and actually that in a conversation
01:20:27in the medical school we have spent
01:20:29so little time talking about how to
01:20:32fix particular aspects of our systems
01:20:35to assign criminal responsibility,
01:20:38and we've had a really deep and
01:20:41wide ranging discussion.
01:20:42About inequality and structural inequality,
01:20:44and you know the importance of
01:20:47eradicating that to achieve citizenship.
01:20:49So I actually am feeling more hopeful that I
01:20:52ever have been in conversations like this,
01:20:55because, you know,
01:20:57maybe y'all and the health care system
01:21:00you know are looking at the right
01:21:02things compared to the audiences
01:21:04that I'm usually speaking to.
01:21:09Thank you. Any reflections from
01:21:11doctor Wang or Sydney Mean No.
01:21:16I. If not I I'm gonna put together
01:21:192 questions that really seemed to
01:21:22bring this home. Uh, you know,
01:21:24'cause I really appreciated the speakers.
01:21:27Challenge to us to bring this right home.
01:21:30You know what are we doing personally
01:21:33in our work and our community life.
01:21:35So, um, the first is what is Yale?
01:21:39New Haven hospital going to commit
01:21:41from this perspective is the only even
01:21:43hospital billing open to collaborating
01:21:46with transitions for employment
01:21:47leading a fair pay and benefits,
01:21:49especially for health care jobs
01:21:51label does low skill, so that's one.
01:21:54And then the 2nd as abolitionists
01:21:56merriam Kava tells us we cannot.
01:21:59Advocate for or participate in any
01:22:01activity that strengthens legitimacy
01:22:03of the prison industrial complex.
01:22:05So as abolitionists,
01:22:06healthcare providers.
01:22:07How can we provide health care to
01:22:11incarcerated people within the prison
01:22:13system without further legitimizing it?
01:22:16Any thoughts?
01:22:19That cuts to the core that last question,
01:22:22the core of the core for me and I just
01:22:24so appreciate that question because I
01:22:27think it's a daily struggle in my life.
01:22:30We've made decisions again at,
01:22:31you know, and there's the personal
01:22:34decisions and kind of professional
01:22:35ones we've made made as a team.
01:22:38And so I'll go to the
01:22:40professional that's easier.
01:22:41Which is to say that, you know,
01:22:43as a network and is a lab and as a centre,
01:22:47we again have centered at the values needs.
01:22:50And preferences of people that are
01:22:52incarcerated so have made concrete decisions
01:22:55with that in partnership and collaboration,
01:22:58which includes we don't take direct funding
01:23:01within transitions from correctional systems.
01:23:04We really work up against reinforcing
01:23:07kind of again systems of control,
01:23:09surveillance etc.
01:23:10An and you know real
01:23:12concrete way of describing.
01:23:14That is like asking our advisory
01:23:17boards over and over again.
01:23:20Urine toxicology is how
01:23:21do they feel about that?
01:23:23Even if the clinic system and you know,
01:23:25Interestingly, some,
01:23:26the discussion is actually
01:23:27different than we might experience.
01:23:29So again, my point is just centering
01:23:31again our policies and practices around.
01:23:34Their values,
01:23:35I think, is critical.
01:23:36For myself, this is kind of,
01:23:38I'd say what I think about all the time is.
01:23:45You know, yeah?
01:23:46and I and I think like I think you know,
01:23:49you only have 24 hours in the day.
01:23:52How is it that you kind of bring your best
01:23:55self to this work and push it forward?
01:23:58and I think that really hard struggle
01:24:00that we have is health care providers.
01:24:03Is this real fact is that there
01:24:05are patients that are incarcerated
01:24:06right now that without healthcare
01:24:08providers being inside?
01:24:12Their stock, the script there's there's
01:24:14no way moving forward, you know,
01:24:16and so I have kind of the deep best.
01:24:19I'd say most radical.
01:24:22Their colleagues that are practicing
01:24:24inside that see this as an important
01:24:27part of abolition, you know and.
01:24:31As the provision of healthcare
01:24:33inside if provided well,
01:24:35is a path for decarceration,
01:24:36the provision of Healthcare is a
01:24:39way of reforming someone's humanity
01:24:40inside as a path for abolition,
01:24:43and that said, I think that this
01:24:45is really very very complicated.
01:24:47I mean, I saw that they came out
01:24:49saying that now there's kind of
01:24:52statements yesterday where they
01:24:53are no longer in partnership,
01:24:55know grants, no funds,
01:24:57nothing with the police,
01:24:58and they distinguished the police
01:25:00from prisons.
01:25:01This American public Health Association.
01:25:03And to me, that's complicated.
01:25:05It's deeply complicated in
01:25:06Speaking of someone that works
01:25:07mostly with prisons and jails.
01:25:09How do you create a transitional program?
01:25:11How do you create unified
01:25:12electronic health records?
01:25:13How do you improve the care of those that
01:25:16come home at we're doing worse than you know.
01:25:19The data showed that.
01:25:20And so to me,
01:25:21I think that that question.
01:25:22I just keep pointing up to the top
01:25:25my screen 'cause I see it right.
01:25:27There is at the core kind of the values that
01:25:30undergird do I don't have an answer to that,
01:25:33but I really appreciate it 'cause it's that.
01:25:35I think that motivates.
01:25:36You know why any of us do this work.
01:25:45So Sidney, you're going to have
01:25:46the last word on this one. No,
01:25:48I'll let you have
01:25:50it. Well, I think we have two minutes.
01:25:52I'll go quickly to make sure
01:25:54that you had the last word.
01:25:56I, I notice that question in the Q&A. And.
01:26:03I think my my reaction was that I understand
01:26:07why someone would ask that question.
01:26:10I understand the motivation for
01:26:12quoting someone like Mario macabre,
01:26:15but I actually think her own work.
01:26:19Cobb's on the work actually shows how someone
01:26:22could be convicted with respect to that.
01:26:26Approach, but do things that other
01:26:30people would view as legitimizing.
01:26:34Current structures because if you
01:26:36look at things that she's done,
01:26:39it's not as if she would never ever
01:26:41speak to police as they exist now.
01:26:44That's not what she has actually
01:26:46done in her own work.
01:26:47If if you look at it,
01:26:49that's not to say that in working with
01:26:52them in some way that she understands
01:26:54herself to be legitimizing it them.
01:26:56I'm saying that somebody looking at
01:26:58her from the outside could say that,
01:27:01and I point that out to say that.
01:27:05I don't think I
01:27:06have ever been an idealist.
01:27:08I'm from Chicago and Chicagoans are
01:27:11sort of famously pragmatists, a man.
01:27:14I think that if you are
01:27:17going to get things done,
01:27:20you're necessarily going to make some
01:27:22choices that others who have a different
01:27:26form of understanding their own ideals,
01:27:29you know, would criticize.
01:27:31And making that claim.
01:27:33I'm not saying, You know.
01:27:37Get your hands or and you know I'm
01:27:40not trying to be sort of, you know.
01:27:42There are these things that you
01:27:45should do that are bad or illegal
01:27:48that that that's not the point.
01:27:50You know.
01:27:51You know, I, I think about there
01:27:53are many examples abolitionists.
01:27:55Frederick Douglass.
01:27:56As an example,
01:27:58who would do things that many
01:28:00idealists would say were clearly
01:28:02consistent with their ideals,
01:28:04and then he would also do things that people
01:28:08might look at and be a little bit like,
01:28:11Oh wait,
01:28:12that's not a pure abolitionist approach,
01:28:15I just don't think that
01:28:17there's any purity to this.
01:28:19If you're actually on the
01:28:21ground doing the work,
01:28:23you know the people who can be the most pure.
01:28:27Are the people who write about it.
01:28:30And that's fine.
01:28:32That's great.
01:28:32An important,
01:28:33but I think if you're actually
01:28:36there on the ground doing
01:28:38something that it is impossible
01:28:40to make a move that someone.
01:28:43Cannot ultimately criticize
01:28:45an understandably so.
01:28:50Thank you and now the last
01:28:52word from Sydney cream.
01:28:54Super short, uhm.
01:28:56I just want to speak specifically
01:28:58to Chinese and medical students.
01:29:00Don't wait, you're not going to
01:29:03get more power than you have
01:29:06right now as a medical student.
01:29:08They need our labor.
01:29:12And and so as a collective are our
01:29:14voices can be just as powerful an
01:29:17I'm just excited for, you know,
01:29:19so many people joining this
01:29:20call and thank you to doctor
01:29:22long and professor mirrors for
01:29:24really educating us today and and
01:29:26sharing your time with us.
01:29:27I really appreciate it.
01:29:31Amen, and thank you Sidney green as
01:29:33well as Tracy mirrors and Emily Wong.
01:29:36Thank you so much. Spend a wonderful night.
01:29:40Thanks everybody.