Yale Symposium on Holocaust and Genocide: Panel

March 14, 2023

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February 2, 2023

Supported by the Lindenthal Family

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00:07So for the final portion of the program,
00:09we're going to have a discussion,
00:11a panel discussion of the rise
00:14of anti-Semitism nationally and
00:16internationally and and locally as well.
00:19And the panel, you know,
00:20the three folks on the right,
00:21I want to introduce the gentleman
00:23to my immediate right who's
00:25joining the panel at my request.
00:27This is Yuri Cohen,
00:28who's the executive director of
00:30the Joseph Smith Joseph Slifka
00:32Center for Jewish Life at Yale.
00:34A bit about your he was appointed the
00:36Executive director of the SLIFKA.
00:37Center in 2018,
00:38and his appointment to that post
00:40follows A7 year tenure in the same
00:42role at Queens College Hill and
00:44the City University of New York.
00:46Prior to coming to Hillel,
00:47you let Yuri health position at the
00:49Solomon Schechter School of Manhattan,
00:51Hillel International and Perry
00:52Davis Associates with almost two
00:54decades experience in fundraising,
00:55community relations and leadership.
00:57Even in his new post,
00:59he continues to be involved with
01:01Jewish life at Queens College and
01:02Works to raise awareness of the need
01:04for thriving Jewish life to serve the
01:07Jewish students enrolled at City University.
01:09He holds a Masters in public
01:11administration from New York
01:12University and has been studying,
01:14practicing and teaching
01:15leadership for the past 25 years.
01:18He spent the last 17 years working
01:19with the Jewish community,
01:20and he comes to slifka with
01:23strong experience.
01:23Indeed, management and Community relations,
01:25financial management.
01:26Um, Yuri.
01:27I met a few years ago and I thought he
01:30would be a wonderful person to address.
01:33Not just anti-Semitism here at Yale,
01:36if that's if that's so moves you,
01:38but but that anti-Semitism writ large
01:40in the United States and beyond.
01:41I'm looking at contemporary Times Now.
01:43We've certainly seen enough of
01:46the mid 20th century for a bit.
01:49So I've invited each speaker to to say some,
01:52give us a few minutes of their
01:54thoughts on the subject,
01:55just from right here you guys can just
01:56so we can pass the microphone around.
01:58And then I want to invite you
02:00folks to submit questions via
02:01zoom or to raise your hand.
02:03We have a microphone that will
02:04be floating around the audience,
02:05but we're going to start please,
02:07with Yuri Cohen.
02:09Hi everyone, thank you so much for having me.
02:12Thank you to Doctor Mercurio for
02:14the for the the invitation can is
02:17this microphone working? No yes
02:20it working. No, I didn't think so.
02:26Yes. Is that better?
02:28Excellent. OK. Perfect. So.
02:32Not talking with you.
02:35Thanks to thanks to Mark for
02:38the invitation and and and to
02:40doctor Lindenthal for for making
02:43this making this possible,
02:44and to everyone for for being
02:46here and my fellow panelists.
02:51College campuses are the very
02:54best places in the world.
02:56I mean, I'm a little bit biased and I
02:58know many of us are the very best place
03:02in the world because students are here
03:05at just the very best time in their lives.
03:08It's about identity formation,
03:10it's about acquiring memory.
03:11That's essentially what students
03:13are doing in their classes and also,
03:16you know, in the, in the,
03:17in the social connections that
03:18they make in the community and.
03:19Um, connections that and experiences
03:21that they that they make.
03:23They're also activating their own agency.
03:26It's not about spitting back all the
03:27time what I was taught or what I was
03:29told by my parents or my teachers,
03:31but I'm actually starting to
03:33find my own voice.
03:34And the combination of those three things,
03:37in my opinion,
03:38makes the college campuses just
03:40the very the very best place to be.
03:42It's a challenging place also
03:45because there's kind of a of a of
03:48a magnifying lens that people all
03:50over use on the college campuses.
03:53What's happening there?
03:54What are the students doing?
03:55What are they thinking?
03:56What should we be trying to get them to say?
03:58What should we be trying to
04:00get them to think?
04:01How should we be indoctrinating them?
04:03How should we be training them?
04:06I hear very little about what
04:08can we be learning from them.
04:11And that,
04:12that really bothers me,
04:14that makes me worried as not only
04:16a Jewish community professional,
04:17but also somebody who's really
04:19invested in the future of the world,
04:21especially being at a place like here,
04:23like like Yale.
04:24There's a lot going on here that's gonna
04:27have a direct connection on the future.
04:29And the students who are on campus
04:32right now hold the key to all of
04:34the things that we hold dear,
04:36being relevant 20 years from now,
04:3730 years from now, 40 years from now.
04:39So it can't really, in my opinion.
04:42We really shouldn't be what can
04:43only what can we teach them?
04:45We also need to be learning from them.
04:47We have to be listening to them.
04:50We have to be.
04:52Validating that place that they are
04:54in so that they will feel like their
04:57voice matters. We don't do that.
04:59I I think we're failing miserably.
05:02Umm.
05:05Anti-Semitism is very complicated on
05:08college campuses and and I think that's
05:11for a couple of different reasons.
05:14I'll just say the following anecdote.
05:17I was really surprised.
05:18I came here in in 2018 and the and the
05:22the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh
05:24was in October of 2018 and I was
05:27shocked that the students were shocked.
05:32They they could not understand
05:34what had just happened.
05:36They felt vulnerable.
05:37Perhaps for the first time,
05:39they felt like their whole world
05:41had kind of been turned upside down.
05:44Now I've been around a little bit
05:46longer and I'm not surprised.
05:48That Jews would be shot for going into
05:51a synagogue or for identifying as Jews.
05:53That that's unfortunately fairly commonplace.
05:56Not that we should, you know,
05:58let it go or or not fight against
05:59it or stand up against it.
06:01But it's not shocking.
06:02But the students felt shocked.
06:05And that tells a lot.
06:06That says a lot to me about
06:09where students are coming from,
06:11what is their experience,
06:12what are the associations with
06:14being Jewish that are relevant in
06:16their lives and in the lives of
06:19the institutions with which they.
06:20They are involved.
06:21There's a major change from a lot
06:24of the times that we've been talking
06:26about so far today in what it means to
06:28be Jewish to if you Fast forward to today,
06:31associations with Jews used to be about
06:35different, about an oppressed minority,
06:39about dirty, about small, about a threat.
06:45Today, it's much more about privilege.
06:49It's about power.
06:52It's about influence.
06:54It's about affluence.
06:56Those are very different associations.
06:58And so when a Jewish
07:00student walks into a room.
07:02They're,
07:02they're perceived very differently
07:04than they than they have been
07:07at at various other times,
07:09probably perhaps every other
07:11time in Jewish history.
07:13And so that experience is really important.
07:16We have to understand those associations
07:18and those experiences and really
07:20to in order to really understand
07:22what's happening on the campuses.
07:25As you know, as,
07:26as as everyone probably knows,
07:29anti-Semitism is a really challenging
07:31thing to navigate because you can
07:33get it from the political right,
07:35you can get it from the political left.
07:37I've heard it said that it's that
07:39anti-Semitism is the only form of
07:41hate and bias that comes pretty
07:43much equally from both sides.
07:45You have the you have the marchers
07:48in Charlottesville chanting.
07:49Jews will not replace us.
07:52And then you have the people who
07:54are who are saying that Jews do not
07:56have the right to be involved in
07:58progressive causes because of what's
08:00happening in Israel between the Israeli,
08:04Palestinian conflict.
08:06I'm not sure how you win that.
08:08Kind of getting it from both sides,
08:11but here we are.
08:13Jews have been have been dealing
08:15with anti-Semitism for a very,
08:17very long time.
08:18And and and we're still here and
08:22so we keep at it.
08:23Now there's one theme that came
08:26up both in in in David and and
08:29and Thorson's presentation that
08:30I thought was really important,
08:31it struck me right at the end
08:33before the panel which is.
08:35It's really easy to vilify,
08:37to basically say that someone is an anomaly,
08:39that Mangala was a, you know, was a was,
08:42you know, demonic or somehow crazy.
08:45So you don't have to deal with him,
08:48you can just say, oh, he's an exception.
08:51Um. I think that a lot of people are
08:54doing that about college students today.
08:57I think that there's a sense of we don't
09:00have to deal with what they are dealing with.
09:03We can just say that we're
09:05right and they're wrong,
09:06or we can try to teach them something else to
09:08replace the experience that they have had,
09:11but I want to caution us
09:13against that very strongly.
09:14It's really important to understand
09:16where the students are coming from,
09:18why it's complicated for them,
09:19why it's difficult for them,
09:21and really dig into what
09:23makes it complicated.
09:24I'll say two more things.
09:25And then and then, you know,
09:27move the microphone along.
09:31The first thing is Israel
09:35complicates things enormously.
09:37Anti Zionism and anti-Semitism are linked.
09:41They are not the same thing in my opinion.
09:43They are.
09:44They are linked.
09:46And I know that they're not,
09:47that they're not the same thing,
09:49because they are very highly identified,
09:52very strongly feeling Jews who are
09:54active in the Jewish community.
09:57At Yale right now,
09:58not not to mention elsewhere in the country
10:01who would consider themselves anti Zionists.
10:04And they're not doing it
10:05because they hate Jews,
10:06they're doing it because
10:08they're Jewish values,
10:09as they have learned them as they have.
10:13Uh,
10:13started to live them out in their own way.
10:16Raises important questions
10:18about what's going on.
10:20I think those are important questions.
10:23It does not take away from the fact that Jews
10:28have been persecuted for thousands of years.
10:31And that the State of Israel in,
10:34you know,
10:35it can,
10:35can be thought of as a major blessing
10:39because of what is it has accomplished
10:41not only for the Jewish community
10:43but for the world more broadly.
10:45The United States has
10:46its share of challenges.
10:47the United States government
10:49has its share of challenges,
10:51and the criticism of it is warranted.
10:56And appropriate and encouraged
11:01and and yet at the same time there
11:04are constant calls for the for the
11:06destruction of the State of Israel.
11:08And I hear very few if any calls for
11:11the destruction of of the United
11:13States of America because of even the
11:16murder of of Tyree Nichols in in Memphis.
11:19So this is really complicated because
11:22our values dictate different things.
11:25We've got to figure out how we
11:28figure out how we distinguish.
11:30The people who are trying to live
11:32out Jewish values and the way
11:34we've taught them to do it in a
11:35way that resonates with them,
11:37with them and the people who are
11:41who are using Israel as a cudgel.
11:44For the destruction and dismantling
11:46of the Jew,
11:47of the of the vibrant Jewish people.
11:49That's point number one.
11:50It's really important to
11:52distinguish those two things.
11:53The second is, is about universities.
11:57There's a lot of of energy in in, in,
12:01in the world that I that I live in
12:03around being careful about free speech,
12:05trying to get universities you
12:07know to to strike the right balance
12:10between you know decrying hate
12:12speech and lifting up free speech,
12:14academic freedom.
12:15All of these things,
12:17those are really important discussions
12:18to to be had and balances to be struck.
12:21There's no, there's no question about that.
12:23I'm a really practical person.
12:26I know that if I'm trying to protect
12:28the the interests of Jewish students
12:30and the Jewish community at Yale,
12:32Free Speech, hate speech,
12:33I'm never going to win those battles
12:36because the universities have all kinds
12:38of pressures and all kinds of things.
12:40And that it's a it's it's not.
12:42It's not worth my time to to
12:45push in that in that direction.
12:46I'm much more focused on on working
12:50with students to be discerning.
12:52Let them raise up their voices in
12:55ways that reflect their values and
12:58that push universities to be smarter.
13:00I I find here at Yale,
13:02the vast majority of the administrators
13:04that I work with don't know
13:06anything about anti-Semitism.
13:07They don't really know anything about Jews.
13:09They think of Jews as as a,
13:10as, as another religion,
13:11as alongside the Christians and the
13:13Muslims and and and everybody else,
13:15which is partially true,
13:16but only describes this much
13:18of what it means to be Jewish.
13:20There's a massive lack of understanding.
13:23About about what you would who Jews are,
13:25how how we show up,
13:27and the education of the university
13:30to make Jews,
13:31to make sure that the university treats
13:34Jews the way they treat everyone else.
13:36Umm.
13:37Is is one of the most important
13:39things that we can do.
13:40So it's about educating the university.
13:42It's about lifting up students,
13:44helping them to make careful decisions.
13:46You know, one of the things that
13:48Jews are best known for.
13:49And with this all clothes is
13:50making distinctions.
13:51Have deal been Kodesh? Lacole.
13:53We're supposed to distinguish
13:55between the mundane and the holy?
13:57The clean and the unclean,
13:59the right and the wrong.
14:00It's really hard.
14:02It's incredibly complicated.
14:04And I think we we,
14:05if we're doing our jobs well,
14:07we can and should jump into
14:09that with the students,
14:10help them become better,
14:11discern ours, engage with them,
14:13learn from them,
14:14share with them,
14:15and be their partners in
14:16building the best world we can.
14:19Thank you. Thank you very much.
14:22And what I'd like to do first is give
14:24each of these folks a chance to speak.
14:25And I want at some point,
14:26I want someone from AB to come up
14:27here and do something with me here.
14:29We've already got 28 questions and we
14:30already have one comment from the audience.
14:32And so I will,
14:34we'll hear from the next three.
14:36With that in mind,
14:37we've got a little bit more time.
14:38We've got three more
14:39panelists with brief remarks.
14:40And then I want to give a chance
14:42certainly to start out with your
14:43question and then and then try
14:44and get to some of these online.
14:46And Calvin is here, someone else.
14:47Just one thing I need to do with that.
14:49Ruth, please.
14:50Thank you for this opportunity.
14:53I'm not a scholar of anti-Semitism,
14:55but it does have an impact
14:58in basically everything I do.
15:01And I would want to start
15:02by raising a question,
15:03perhaps a bit as devil's Advocate, but.
15:06How novel is this supposed
15:09rising new anti-Semitism?
15:11Or has it actually been there all along,
15:14but only recently,
15:15in the last few years,
15:18perhaps since 2016?
15:22Given like been given a lot more
15:25license to be more open there,
15:28there's been a lot written about
15:30how when Trump became president.
15:33You know there were lots of dog
15:35whistles and and things that about
15:38how racism became legitimate
15:40and legitimatized in a sense.
15:42And I I wonder if you know
15:46similar processes have informed
15:47what we see as Oh my goodness,
15:50a rise of anti-Semitism.
15:51So that's just a question, a thought piece.
15:55And as you already just mentioned,
15:57a lot of my notes that I took really
16:00echo with some things that you said
16:03about the conflation of anti-Semitism
16:05and anti Israel or is is Israel.
16:09Thinking anti Zionism?
16:12And one of the things this does is to
16:14justify anti-Semitism by looking at Israeli,
16:17Israeli governments
16:19treatment of Palestinians.
16:22And especially in places with few or no Jews,
16:27the very word,
16:28the term can be a curse word.
16:31I've heard this many times.
16:34It also, in some places with fewer no Jews,
16:38refers to some kind of historical exotic
16:42figure replete with stereotypes and,
16:46and it seems natural then to equate
16:50Jewishness with Israel Ness and,
16:52you know, with all the attendant problems.
16:57And also this kind of conflation treats Jews.
17:02As a monolith, when an actual fact,
17:04there's a wide range of opinions about Israel
17:07within the Jewish population in the US.
17:10On one side, of course, is APAC,
17:13the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
17:16Many people in APEC,
17:18I think claim believe that they
17:20represent the majority of American Jews.
17:23But many American Jews will
17:25have nothing to do with APEC and
17:28organizations such as Shallow Mahshad,
17:30Peace now, and J Street.
17:32Jewish voices for peace and many,
17:35many other organizations see themselves
17:37as strongly identitarian Jews and
17:40Jewishness and diasporic Jews,
17:44but equally strongly value based criticism
17:48critically critical of Israeli policies.
17:52But not advocating the destruction
17:54of the State of Israel by any means.
17:58But instead wanting a more just
18:02and peaceful Israel.
18:03And furthermore,
18:05there's other DS sporic identifying
18:08strains that have always been.
18:10You know in in in the US and
18:12before that in Eastern Europe,
18:14the bundas Yiddish W strains.
18:17So it's anything but homogeneous and
18:20that's something that's occluded by
18:23kind of crude anti-Semitic discourse.
18:25And as we just described,
18:27some of this battle is being fought on
18:30university campuses and the pressure
18:33on universities to adopt A particular
18:37definition of anti-Semitism and
18:39this has caused huge controversy.
18:42Where I teach most of the time in England,
18:45I've seen it there,
18:46but I'm also in close touch with
18:48colleagues here in this country
18:49about the same issue.
18:50And there's a lot of problems with this
18:53academics concerned about self censorship,
18:56about deep platforming issues,
18:57about academic freedom,
18:59freedom of speech,
19:00and also some academics wonder
19:03about the exceptionalist discourse,
19:06the exceptionalist implication of of.
19:11Imposing such a definition of
19:14anti-Semitism thinking well why
19:16should a definition of anti-Semitism
19:19be treated any differently from
19:22anti racist or anti LGBTQ or other
19:25kind of hate speech policies?
19:27So if our job as academics is
19:31to facilitate young peoples
19:34critical thinking abilities,
19:36we need to be quite concerned
19:38about some of these debates.
19:40It's also perhaps useful to think
19:44about rising anti-Semitism in
19:46relation to rising Islamophobia.
19:49In my work I've seen some places
19:53where official philosemitism
19:55is expressed via Islamophobia.
19:58So Co opting Jewish groups to privilege
20:00them or to protect them against
20:02unwanted Muslims and I think these
20:05things are are less known about,
20:07less discussed,
20:07but equally need to be brought to the fore.
20:12Umm.
20:16And in an another thing to consider
20:18when you're talking about why this rise
20:20and so forth in the post Cold War era,
20:22when we no longer live in an antinomian
20:27universe, does rising anti-Semitism
20:29and Islamophobia kind of do these
20:33things fill a conceptual gap of in
20:36other to blame for what's wrong?
20:39Another thing is temporality.
20:41The issue of you know,
20:44time, another factor,
20:46the distance in time from the Holocaust
20:50means an attenuation of social and
20:54cultural proximity to an understanding of
20:58Jewishness by many non Jews in particular.
21:01So for many,
21:03especially what I've seen in Europe,
21:05the very notion of Jew is a historical,
21:08mythological, mythologized figure
21:11along with associated stereotypes.
21:15And even in places where people
21:17do have some contact with Jews,
21:20we can see an unself conscious
21:23practice of microaggressions based on
21:26old tropes to be quite commonplace.
21:30I've seen this all the time in England.
21:33Where Jews are always marked as
21:35an other as different,
21:37not able to fit in or fully integrate,
21:39regardless of how many generations
21:42they might have been there.
21:44And like some other European nations,
21:46England, as opposed to Britain,
21:49has a sense of itself as an
21:52ethnically homogeneous nation.
21:54And again unlike the United States whose
21:56which with an ideology of an immigration,
22:00you know we're an immigration country,
22:01everybody you know can trace themselves
22:03to you know being an immigrant,
22:05even indigenous people who
22:07crossed the land mass.
22:08But.
22:11So it's quite different in European
22:14nation states.
22:15And Jewishness, of course,
22:16is marked as an other in Germany in
22:19linguistic conventions, and in other ways,
22:22all the way to the perverse practice of.
22:25Anti vaxxers in the last couple
22:27of years wearing the yellow star.
22:30I showing their identification
22:31with a sense of persecution,
22:34with the predicament of
22:35Jews in the Third Reich.
22:36And there's many,
22:37many other kinds of examples
22:39of things that we can see as.
22:42Macro and micro aggressions and and
22:44and label them as anti-Semitism.
22:47But I think we need to contextualize
22:50very carefully and unpack you know the
22:53the cultural and social and political
22:56and economic contexts that these all
22:58occur in and I will pass the MIC now
23:00thank you so much Ruth just a comment
23:04to to everyone here I want to
23:06apologize in advance to that person or
23:08those people who have an absolutely
23:10essential question or point to make.
23:12Because I do end conferences on time,
23:14so I apologize if, if if I don't
23:16get to all the questions or comments
23:18they are racking up here on the line.
23:20And I'm sure there's folks in
23:21the room that have questions too.
23:22So I'm going to ask you guys to keep
23:24your comments a little bit brief
23:26because we've got about 1/2 an hour
23:28left for your comments and for the
23:30comments and questions from the audience.
23:31By all means I want to hear David and
23:33Torsten, what you guys have to say.
23:34And I do want to leave some time,
23:35but I promise you is going to be
23:37somebody in this room and on zoom
23:38was going to have something terribly
23:39important to say.
23:40And I'm afraid I'm not going to get to it,
23:41but I'll do my best.
23:43I'm. I'll make it easy, Mark.
23:45I didn't actually prepare an opening remark.
23:48And I will make a confession
23:49that is that I I don't.
23:52Think much about anti-Semitism
23:54in my daily life.
23:56That's an admission that I'm
23:58not proud to make.
24:00I know enough about it to know
24:03that it is extremely complicated,
24:05and I haven't made the effort to make
24:08myself smart about the subject these days.
24:11I will tell you that after having been the
24:14CEO of a Jewish cultural institution in
24:16New York for 15 years beginning in 2000,
24:20that the impact of.
24:22Anti-Semitism and the threat that it,
24:25that it loomed,
24:26that loomed for us because of it,
24:28was one of the major issues
24:31that kept me up at night.
24:32The notion of of being responsible for
24:35the safety and security of our building,
24:38of my colleagues,
24:39and of the public that came in
24:41was enough to turn my once dark
24:43brown hair to the color it is now.
24:46I was never more.
24:48Never happier to relinquish one set
24:51of responsibilities than to leave New
24:54York City with an intact institution
24:56that was the object of of so much
25:01intense scrutiny by certain folks.
25:04I remember how seriously your
25:06organization took security and
25:07how professionally they were.
25:08How professionally they went about it.
25:10You could tell some thought went into it.
25:12Keeping folks safe, Torsten.
25:17Is it on? Yeah, great. Thanks.
25:23So my background is obviously
25:25German and as a historian,
25:27so I will not pretend to be.
25:31Competent and qualified to talk
25:32about American contemporary
25:33situations more than living here.
25:35And of course following the debates as well,
25:38where we'll start as saying I think
25:41it's really important to remind
25:42ourselves that as much as we can
25:44talk about an eternal hatred,
25:46as one book title goes,
25:47that we do need to understand
25:49that anti-Semitism has meant very
25:51different things over the ages.
25:52And it might be nothing where
25:53we want to go right now.
25:54But I think just as a reminder of that.
25:57And for a more contemporary setting,
25:58I'll just mention that that
26:00of course for European,
26:01and I think for broader context of
26:03course means that what we've seen
26:04post Holocaust is what scholars have
26:07called secondary anti-Semitism.
26:08What they mean by that term is an
26:11antisemitism, not in spite of the Shoah,
26:13but because of the Shoah.
26:14So that you have Germans who say,
26:15well, I'm,
26:16I'm so upset and annoyed by
26:19this feeling of guilt,
26:20I'll find a way to attack
26:22those who remind me of it.
26:23So that's a very specific,
26:24of course, German setting,
26:25but of course also one that
26:26we find broader in.
26:27Context of complicity,
26:28so secondary anti-Semitism.
26:30And to open that up,
26:31that can of worms that I'm sure
26:33we'll get more to uh, of course,
26:34we also see what's sociology,
26:36sociologists of anti-Semitism
26:37will call detour communication.
26:39And what they mean by that is you actually.
26:44Have antisemitic concepts and
26:46notions and feelings you choose
26:48because of certain kind of
26:50limitations in public discourse to
26:52talk about Israel in that context.
26:54But what you mean is different forms of it,
26:57and that's of course one.
26:59Whether that's exactly a
27:00description of the contemporary
27:01situation is probably debatable,
27:03but that I think is just
27:04one way of describing it.
27:05So not going further into the history thing.
27:07But I will mention that coming
27:09from that kind of German angle,
27:10it is thought provoking that in October 2019.
27:13A right wing extremist tries
27:16to get into a synagogue in
27:18Heller and kill the community.
27:19And a few months later another right
27:22wing extremist goes to Hannah and
27:24kills nine people with an immigrant
27:26background for racist reasons as well.
27:28So racism,
27:28anti-Semitism is a reality in Germany.
27:31Obviously.
27:31Also we have had cases in America recently.
27:35And very often they are,
27:36in their resurgence also coming hand in hand.
27:39So the question is,
27:40and that's a very big debate of course,
27:41in the German and European
27:42setting and probably broader,
27:44what is the relationship between
27:46anti-Semitism and racism?
27:47And part of that debate obviously has a
27:49lot to do with how we think about history,
27:51how we think of history education,
27:54how do we deal with the history
27:55of Nazism and the Holocaust
27:57in a society and in societies,
27:58and I'm sure UK is the same case here,
28:01that increasingly has become multicultural,
28:02right? So what do we do
28:04with a German society?
28:05One out of four families come
28:08from migrant backgrounds.
28:09You cannot talk the same way about Nazism,
28:11antisemitism as you could
28:12generation or two ago.
28:13This situation live in a
28:15different place and you suddenly
28:16have young people who say,
28:17So what is the relationship between
28:19my experiences of being persecuted
28:21for racist reasons because of my
28:24the color of my skin and that whole
28:26anti-Semitism saying that my teachers
28:27talks obsessively about, right.
28:29How can I connect that basically.
28:30So that's the big issue in many ways,
28:32and that's what we're defining
28:34also the discussions in that.
28:35Situation.
28:36And that's of course connected with
28:38all questions about how do we deal
28:40with the history of imperialism
28:41and colonialism in the German case,
28:43how do we deal with the murder
28:45of NAMA and Herero in Africa?
28:46How did that genocide,
28:48how was that connected with the Holocaust?
28:50Is there a blindness in the
28:52German debate to all these cases,
28:53whether it was racism and
28:55colonialism in German history?
28:56We don't see that because we
28:57only focus on the Holocaust.
28:59Those are the debates that
29:00we see going on right now.
29:01And that of course are intertwined with that,
29:03and it goes with the whole.
29:05Exhibition at the Humboldt Forum.
29:06It goes with art discussions over art.
29:08Some of you have followed European
29:10discussions would be familiar
29:12with the enormous below up and and
29:14disaster surrounding the documenta
29:15exhibition last year, right?
29:17So there.
29:18This has been omnipresent in
29:19many complex ways.
29:21I will say though with the eye on the time.
29:24That I would strongly argue to see the
29:27difference between antisemitism and racism.
29:30There are all kinds of connections,
29:32but of course I would argue in
29:35favor of not seeing anti-Semitism
29:37as a subcategory of racism.
29:39Among other things,
29:41also because,
29:42and that's where I might kind of open
29:44up a little bit of a different angle.
29:45I think,
29:46as a lot of scholars that
29:48I read would emphasize,
29:50racism has a gaze downwards and
29:52looks at people who have to be
29:55civilized and and who are inferior.
29:57anti-Semitism, historically and contemporary,
29:59has a tendency of having a gaze upwards.
30:02It has nothing to do with reality,
30:03right?
30:04Antisemitism is not a question of reality
30:05and sometimes not a question of Jews.
30:07Antisemitism is the question
30:08of the society that Jews.
30:09Might live in or at least are imagined to
30:12be in right just to state that obvious.
30:14But there's a gaze upwards
30:16to towards the power.
30:17And I would say it has always been
30:18like that even in these cases.
30:20So I think those are important aspects.
30:22And when we look at anti-Semitism
30:23in a setting that we had today
30:24in terms of the Holocaust,
30:25of course there is that different
30:27notion of redemptive anti-Semitism,
30:28right.
30:29So we have all kinds of racist
30:32notions even in a Nazi context,
30:34but the only group that actually
30:36can bring redemption when
30:37we as Germans murdered them are the Jews.
30:40That's, that's the different setting,
30:41basically in this setting.
30:42I think that's an important
30:43distinction of course to be made in
30:45that kind of historical context.
30:46What makes things so difficult is
30:47of course that it all depends on
30:49what glasses you put on, right.
30:51Do you put on the glasses that will give
30:54you a perspective of a long history of the,
30:59the, the, the othering and.
31:02The distancing and the suppression
31:04of people of color in the European
31:06setting with with centuries of history
31:08of colonialism and imperialism and
31:09slavery in that context and Israel in
31:11that perspective is one of the last
31:14kind of fits of a colonial enterprise.
31:18Or do you turn it around and say,
31:19well, first and foremost Europe is a
31:21place of history, of centuries of,
31:23of suppression of Jews,
31:25and in that context Jews will be
31:27seen as the victims in that context.
31:29And that's of course the clash
31:31that is unfolding.
31:32To some degree on American campuses,
31:34I believe definitely also in that
31:36kind of German debate that we see
31:39at the same time to close where
31:41really things come to heed heat.
31:43Sorry.
31:44No, heat is the whole discussion about BDS,
31:48right?
31:48And that's to some degree,
31:49I'm sure also the discussions
31:51and the campus settings.
31:54And though I'm trying to be more analytical,
31:56I will venture for an opinion here also.
31:58I think that it's in a German setting.
32:00We clearly can see that there is a
32:04gap between a political cultural
32:06elite in Germany that is almost
32:09exaggerating in its protection of
32:12of these kind of values that Germany
32:15comes from and thinks that the right
32:17thing is to to criminalize the BDS.
32:20And there are quite a few Israeli
32:23Jews and American Jews who try to
32:25communicate into the German discourse.
32:28That's not meaningful.
32:29But when you then have non Jewish
32:31Germans to say I agree with that,
32:33they get into trouble and lose
32:35their jobs and I think that's very
32:38unhealthy dynamics that is very
32:39much transnational and shows how
32:43detrimental these kind of discourses
32:44in many ways can be in that setting.
32:47And by the way,
32:48it's also a generational issue because we
32:50have a generational shift going on right now.
32:52It's the 60 eighters,
32:53we're on the way out and the German setting.
32:55That means that you have all these
32:57people who are so proud of their own
32:59achievements and they're annoyed that.
33:00These youngins come in and talk
33:02about post colonialism all the time.
33:03They don't shut up and just acknowledge
33:05that I have the right voice here,
33:06right?
33:06There's also that kind of generational
33:08conflict that is going on at the same
33:10time people like Meghan Mendel at the
33:12Anne Frank Center in Frankfurt and
33:13other people have just a few months
33:15ago try to bring out a book that they
33:17haven't gave the beautiful title frenemies,
33:19where they describe how people who
33:21fight against racism and people
33:22who fight against anti-Semitism
33:24have so much that they could share,
33:26but in the end they end up at each
33:28other's throats. How sad that is.
33:29But that's also the reality, of course.
33:31And in the end the project that
33:33book project that just. Came out.
33:36Almost collapsed because of that BS
33:39conflict as you can see how what a
33:42mine field that is. Two last points.
33:45The one thing is.
33:48I find it problematic when we have
33:52a tendency to emphasize.
33:55Anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic traditions
33:57on the left and in Muslim contexts.
34:00I've researched it,
34:01I've written about it,
34:02I think it's important.
34:03But I find it a problem when it
34:05becomes this gesture of ex territorial
34:07rising antisemitism that it doesn't
34:09really have something to do with.
34:11They have to remind ourselves that
34:13in America and in Germany,
34:15to a significant degree,
34:16antisemitism comes out of the
34:18midst of middle class society.
34:20It's not some fringes, it's not the others,
34:23it's not these people that are not
34:24like anyway and you talked about.
34:26Umm.
34:26Yes, number phobic potential
34:28that is in there as well,
34:30right?
34:30That we acknowledge and don't try
34:31to delegate it into groups that
34:33we anyway have a problem with.
34:34And the last point I'm going to say
34:36is in these debates what I find
34:39extremely important is let's try
34:40to be self critical and not only
34:43see the antisemitism that fits in
34:45coincidentally into my political view.
34:47So when I'm leaning left, I really see
34:49all the anti-Semitism on the right.
34:51When I'm leaving right,
34:52I really see the antisemitism on the left.
34:54That should make us wonder whether
34:55something wrong with our respective.
34:57Thank you. Thank you all very much.
34:59So we have as Karen here,
35:01so Karen if you would,
35:03we have a question first and then
35:04pass the microphone to Karen
35:05and she'll bring it to the next
35:07question if you could. Come on.
35:11Thank you for the excellent
35:13conference of the day,
35:16which really focuses on the Holocaust,
35:19but the reality of life on the
35:23American campus today is anti-Semitism,
35:27anti Israelism, anti Zionism,
35:30fear of the American Jewish student.
35:35I am severely concerned about
35:37my grandchildren when they go
35:39to college I'm concerned about.
35:41Anti-Semitism on the Yale campus.
35:44I encourage all of the readers and
35:46listeners on the zoom to read the
35:50International Holocaust Remembrance
35:51Alliance definition of anti-Semitism.
35:54I encourage you to read anti Zionism on
35:57the campus and have faculty is silenced
36:01when they have anything Pro Israel to
36:04say as a Conservative supporter of Israel,
36:07as a Jewish American Zionist if
36:09I were to walk down the campus.
36:12With a yamaka on my head or have a placard
36:15of anything that is supportive of Israel,
36:18I am sure I will not make it across
36:20the campus without being accosted.
36:23I challenge Yale University.
36:25To have a conference for the day.
36:29On anti-Semitism from the left
36:32and anti Zionism,
36:34yes Yuri one can be critical of
36:36a policy of the State of Israel.
36:39But if you disagree with the right
36:42of the Jewish people to have their
36:44self-determination and the land of
36:46Israel and the state of Israel's legitimacy,
36:49you are a bona fide anti Semite.
36:53It is as simple as that.
36:54This is not complicated and the groups
36:57that you described Jewish voices for peace.
36:59J street.
37:00These are extreme progressive left
37:03groups that do not accept Israel,
37:06that receive funding from Arab
37:08groups that do not represent the
37:11bulk of the Israeli electorate.
37:13I'm really surprised that your comments,
37:16and really I enjoyed your your
37:18talk about the stepping stones
37:20until you start pointing out people
37:22who are not supportive of Israel.
37:24I mean we have only one Israel and if
37:27you are against the existence of the
37:30State of Israel you are an anti Semite.
37:34So I'd like to give anyone on
37:36the panel for each of these the
37:37chance you're if you want to speak,
37:39or if anyone wants to speak in response
37:40or make a comment after the comments.
37:44Dorston.
37:48This. Is it on? OK, I would just, you know,
37:53agree to have to agree to disagree
37:55with some of your characterizations.
38:00Of course. Did you want to say something?
38:01I'll just briefly say is this
38:03on the MIC a little bit closer?
38:04This is better, yes.
38:05So the gentleman for the last comment
38:07comment trying to see that in the light here.
38:10Thank you. Thank you.
38:12I just wanted to add as a footnote
38:16that actually is a very vigorous and
38:18very important debate over these
38:20definitions and the IRA definition.
38:23Many very wise people say has
38:27substantial problems on all levels,
38:30linguistically, conceptually, and so on.
38:31I'll be happy to share some things with you.
38:33And there's a reason why the Jerusalem
38:36Declaration of Semitism came out
38:39as an alternative approach that
38:41has a good alternative to offer.
38:43And there.
38:43So in other words,
38:44the whole definition issue is an
38:46open one that deserves attention.
38:50Yeah, I would second that.
38:51I've been on my universities committee,
38:54we've been meeting for two years now
38:57to discuss precisely that because the
38:59British Government has been urging all
39:02universities to accept the IRA definition.
39:04But many universities say, you know,
39:07have have found problematic elements
39:08in it and are looking at the
39:11Jerusalem Declaration and others.
39:13So it's it's not a hard and fast
39:15you know done deal as the only
39:18definition of anti-Semitism.
39:19It's definitely.
39:20Under debate and as it
39:21should be at universities,
39:23that's what we're supposed to do.
39:24We're supposed to debate and
39:26think things through and,
39:27you know, not accept something as.
39:31As the truth,
39:33and it also was not,
39:34it was also not designed to be
39:38what it's being used for it.
39:40That's the last thing I think.
39:42Hang on, hang on, hang on one second, please.
39:45Said one one quick thing which is
39:49that that Jewish tradition in its
39:53wholeness has lots of questions and
39:57and uncomfortableness with with Jewish
40:01sovereignty with Jewish tradition that
40:03all of that there are lots of you know
40:07different Zionist ideas and theories
40:08you know throughout the whole period.
40:11So I I think it's it's it's a
40:13much more complicated landscape.
40:16That not been simple. Thank you.
40:22We have a certain gentleman
40:23here. The question. Umm.
40:27I I'd like to
40:29bring us back to. What I hope will is
40:35sort of the rationale for this panel,
40:37which is to connect rising anti-Semitism
40:41on campuses to the lectures that we heard
40:47about aspects of the Holocaust and what
40:51I'd like to know from the panelists.
40:54I think it's primarily a question
40:56for Doctor Wagner, but I'd like
40:59everybody's comments if they have is.
41:02What particular parallels do you see?
41:06In 1930s Germany that accelerated
41:12the rise of Nazism and ultimately
41:16concluded in the Holocaust with.
41:20Hints and behaviors,
41:22hints of behaviors and developments
41:25in present day America. And
41:29just to get you started, I'll give
41:31you mine very, very briefly.
41:35There is and thank you for mentioning BDS,
41:39a concerted effort by many enemies
41:42of the Jews to exclude entirely
41:47Israeli and oftentimes Jewish.
41:50Academics from academia with, I believe,
41:55the ultimate goal of excluding
41:58all Jews from
42:00the professions. I see that as a very
42:04obvious parallel to developments
42:07in Germany in the 1930s. Do
42:11you see other parallels
42:14that we should be concerned with?
42:19When Ruth? Just very briefly, parallels.
42:26I would say Parallels would be,
42:28I mean the the massive propaganda
42:31campaign of National Socialism.
42:34I would maybe compare that to what
42:38we now call alternative facts.
42:42And people believing them because
42:44thanks to the Internet and and so forth
42:47and you know there are people only
42:49get their news and their information
42:52from like minded other people in
42:54their own little echo chambers.
42:56So they the a broad base of discourse
43:02of debate barely exists anymore.
43:05So and thanks to Fox News as well though.
43:09Cortana.
43:11Torsten, you have something to say.
43:14I mean, that's a little closer if you.
43:17That's obviously an enormous question with
43:20with an enormous level of complexity.
43:22I'll just allude to some aspects
43:24that I think are worth thinking
43:26about and and reflecting on.
43:28I think one is of course the.
43:31Structural and other logic similarities
43:34between the ethnocentric movement of
43:38folkish ideology and white supremacy
43:40as we can see it in other settings
43:43in the US and in other places.
43:45I think that the phenomenon of
43:47Christian nationalism as self defined
43:49and as as a category is worth noting
43:52that I think that the context,
43:54which by the way is an interesting
43:56difference between Germany and America.
43:58If you look at the role of anti-Semitism,
44:00the phenomenon of having a love
44:01of Israel that has entered Jewish
44:03dimensions to it is one that we find in
44:06a magical context and not necessarily
44:09in Christian German context, right.
44:10So there are similarities and
44:12differences so to speak there.
44:14I think that an important.
44:16Factory,
44:16the factor that we always need to ask
44:20is to what degree is there a consensus
44:23of people who identify with democracy,
44:26whether they're slightly left or
44:28slightly left or slightly right of the
44:30center that you cannot end up giving
44:32in and having compromises with the
44:34radical strains of politics that are
44:37willing to undermine civil society
44:39and having an inclusive society.
44:41So when you have in in the,
44:42in the current US situation when
44:45you end up having.
44:46Uh,
44:47a moderate right that is willing to
44:49open up to a radical right and say,
44:52you know,
44:52whether there is a focus on civil
44:54society or life or the other way on the left,
44:56to whatever degree we see that.
44:58And that's not my main point here,
44:59but I will probably see more of
45:01an issue on the right personally,
45:02then I think that is a phenomenon
45:04that brings me to think about
45:061933 and those compromises.
45:07But I also think there's a problem
45:10with two fast analogies with 1933.
45:12And I think there's a danger of
45:14staring on that and then also having.
45:16That's the fear uh paralyzes in that context.
45:21So
45:21I'd like next going to go to the to someone
45:24from the in Zoom land and invite all
45:26others who are on on the webinar to submit
45:29questions or comments through the Q&amp;A.
45:31But now in some of the medical educators in
45:33the in the audience might wish to comment
45:35on this as well as well as the folks up here.
45:38And this is an article that I've not seen
45:39and perhaps someone here has seen it,
45:41but I think we one could still
45:43comment on the on the observation.
45:44Please comment on Doctor Eileen
45:46Cooper's recent article in the Canadian
45:48medical Education literature detailing.
45:51Pervasive anti-Semitism on campuses there,
45:53including the medical school and
45:55what your thoughts are on how
45:58to combat comprehensively now,
46:00especially as the topic of rampant
46:02anti-Semitism is generally
46:03not included in diversity,
46:05equity and inclusion educational initiatives.
46:10Anyone have thoughts on this?
46:12You right please.
46:12So I I can't comment on the article piece
46:15of it but the but the latter piece of it.
46:19We've been doing a lot of work with the
46:22administration around making sure that
46:24anti-Semitism is is included and diversity,
46:26equity and equity and inclusion efforts.
46:29Those conversations have been really quite,
46:32quite productive and there's a lot of
46:35interest at least in the folks that that
46:37that I'm speaking to about making sure
46:40that people know what anti-Semitism is.
46:42Yale has this whole belonging at
46:45Yale initiative, which has been,
46:47you know, just being.
46:48Rolled out in different ways from what I
46:50understand across across the university.
46:53And there's a huge amount of interest
46:56actually in making sure that Jews
46:58feel like they belong and increasing
47:00levels of feelings of of,
47:02of Jewish belonging in education.
47:04And in fact just this last week we were
47:07in conversations with with the people
47:09who are running that program because
47:11our bagel brunches that we run every
47:14other Sunday get hundreds of people,
47:16Jews and non Jews alike,
47:18and they're going to be featured.
47:20Is one of the, you know,
47:21one of the one of the belonging at Yale
47:24initiatives because it it creates an
47:27environment where lots of people can belong.
47:29It's within a Jewish context so that so
47:31that Jews can feel like they belong,
47:33other people can learn about what
47:34it means to be Jewish.
47:36We wouldn't be having these conversations.
47:37We wouldn't be getting places.
47:39We wouldn't be doing a training next
47:42week for some of for for for some
47:44folks on the on the on the on the
47:47in the DI space if there weren't,
47:49if there,
47:50if there weren't this type of interest.
47:51So there are things,
47:52there are a lot of things that
47:54Yale is doing is doing right.
47:56We have had you know various anti-Semitic
47:58issues from time to time and we've been
48:01really on top of them and and build
48:03strong partnerships with the university.
48:06But you know,
48:07I I think,
48:07I think there's a lot going right here.
48:12I want to anybody in the audience
48:13involved in medical education,
48:14if it has a comment on whether we feel
48:16because the question or commented also
48:18about on the presence of anti-Semitism
48:20in the medical schools and the
48:22inclusion of anti-Semitism education
48:23and DE I work at the medical schools.
48:27I don't know if anybody here feels commented
48:29or interested in speaking to that.
48:38City is fine. This is fine. The problem
48:42is the word equity,
48:44which means equity and outcome.
48:46So I speak to people around the country
48:49whose brilliant Jewish kids are not
48:51accepted into good universities,
48:53are not accepted into jobs
48:56and programs because Jews are
48:58considered an overrepresented group.
49:01This is the problem with DEI.
49:04It's not in Martin Luther King's view.
49:07It is not the American view.
49:09It's not what our grandparents,
49:12our Jewish grandparents face when
49:14they came to this country where
49:16there was equality of opportunity.
49:18So I encourage you to read the definition
49:21of the equity component in DEI.
49:24Is this A and some folks up here?
49:26I want to comment, but it would seem
49:29from recent best publicized lawsuit
49:31that this is not a concern unique to
49:34anti-Semitism in terms of students
49:37being students being excluded.
49:38Comments. Alright Yuri
49:40I'll just, I'll just say quickly that
49:42that there there are seven members
49:44of the university administration who
49:46are right now in a 15 month training
49:48course on anti-Semitism with me.
49:50I'm really really proud of that and
49:52and they're doing great work and I
49:54want to highlight Darren Lattimore
49:56who's who's you know one of the the DI
49:58Dean here at the medical school who's
50:00just been a paragon of excellence in
50:03this in this area paying attention.
50:05There are problems I, I, I,
50:07I know and we've got a great team of people.
50:09You know working to do the best we can here.
50:12Well that's very good to hear because
50:13Darren Lattimore for those in the audience
50:14who don't know it is the person who
50:16leads one of the individuals who leads
50:17the the DI work at the medical school.
50:20So that's that's encouraging to
50:21hear other comments or questions.
50:23I think I have a another one
50:25here if I can scroll to it. Umm.
50:31OK, there's people who disagree,
50:34but nothing in terms of substantive
50:36questions here or comments.
50:41OK. And you can certainly submit these
50:43questions anonymously if you wish
50:45to say something about that,
50:46of course, actually.
50:48So I know, I know that that you know,
50:52some of the things that I shared
50:54may not be the most popular.
50:56They sort of go out of, out of.
51:01Uh uh out of resonance with with
51:03where where some folks are coming
51:04from the only reason I I I'm,
51:06I I sit here and say things that I
51:08know are going to be somewhat unpopular
51:09because I think they're really true.
51:11I've I've been a hall director for
51:13I'm in my 12th year as a health
51:16director and worked with hundreds
51:17and hundreds of students and and
51:19and lots of staff have worked with
51:21thousands and thousands of students.
51:23And what I'm trying to reflect is is my
51:26combined you know perspective as well
51:28as that of my of the people on my staff.
51:31Um, to try and let everyone know
51:33about what's really happening in the
51:36undergraduate experience especially
51:38and put ideas out there for,
51:41for, for conversation.
51:42Thank you very much and we appreciate.
51:44I think that's. In a nutshell,
51:46the purpose of a university is to
51:47be able to speak out in that way.
51:49Thank you. Others. We have some.
51:52I'm sorry, I got the bright lights here.
51:58Where are we going?
52:05See if that one works, that would be great.
52:09I comes.
52:12This is no time for a coffee break.
52:16Hi, umm. I'm a medical student here, and,
52:20you know, it's just a little surprised
52:22to hear this comment of Jews having
52:25a hard time getting into schools.
52:27And that used to be easier
52:29for Jews to get into schools.
52:30I think maybe some of the
52:33historians here might know that
52:35institutions historically did
52:38not allow Jews into universities.
52:42And there was a lot
52:43of. A big a big history and
52:47legacy of anti-Semitism.
52:49In the US and so I was just
52:52interested if anyone could
52:53comment more on that and also.
52:57On just the. You know,
53:00kind of, you know, in in
53:02Germany after the Holocaust,
53:04there are a lot of things done to
53:06kind of repair the anti-Semitism.
53:10Umm, my understanding
53:12is the US in World War Two also had a
53:15lot of very, like eugenic beliefs and
53:19anti-Semitism and kind of. Umm. How that
53:25relates to where we are now not
53:28really having. Formal ways to repair.
53:34Those beliefs.
53:40I'll just say something on the first
53:42part of the on the on the question.
53:45So we were actually just Roosters
53:47made a comment about this this too.
53:48So you know there used to be quotas
53:51you know whether they were official
53:53quotas or their whatever there used
53:55to be you know a a very specific
53:57limit on on on Jewish admissions and
53:59then from everything that I hear I I
54:02don't know if it's true but everything
54:04I hear from everybody is that is
54:05that that somewhere in the let's say
54:07the the the 90s and the and the.
54:102000s Yale was like 2530% Jewish in
54:14the undergraduate population that's
54:15you you almost uniformly people say
54:17that except the admissions department
54:19says that can't be true.
54:21I don't know if it's true but that
54:23was the that was the sense and now the
54:26numbers are are much are much lower
54:28again and and and my my colleague
54:31Robert Jason Rubenstein is you know
54:33puts it like this he says essentially
54:36you know this this diminution of of.
54:40Of Jews, which is not specific to Yale.
54:42It's kind of a cry.
54:43It's across the Ivy League,
54:44it's across the competitive schools,
54:46and it's not just Jews also,
54:47but let's just focus on the Jews is
54:49we've actually been too successful.
54:51Because before we were we were
54:54kept out because we were different.
54:56Then we were let in because we
54:59were different.
55:00And now we're actually not in in the
55:02in the sort of the public you know,
55:04in the public demographic,
55:06we're actually not so different
55:08not so interesting there.
55:10There are groups that are much more
55:12interesting now there are Jews who
55:14fall into the more interesting
55:16categories but they're not coming
55:17to places like Yale in such great
55:19numbers that at this moment in in time.
55:21So.
55:22So there's this,
55:23there's this you know to to say
55:25there's quotas now the the the
55:27limitations now is not the same
55:29as the limitations were.
55:31You know years ago and I think
55:33it's worth it's worth thinking
55:34about what those changes mean and
55:37how can we interpret them in ways
55:39that that both you know help the
55:41university see that a robust and
55:43vibrant Jewish community is in its
55:45best its own best interest which I
55:47think is is is is objectively true
55:49and also being being ally an ally
55:52with the university and and and
55:54helping us to to gain to gain the
55:57kind of respect that that we deserve.
56:00Just on that very point I would recommend.
56:04If you're interested in in this,
56:06I don't know, yeah.
56:08Listen, podcast, I think under the
56:13rubric of tablet called Gate Crushers.
56:15I don't know if anyone's heard it.
56:17And it's about six or seven parts.
56:18It's by Mark Oppenheimer,
56:21who is a local journalist,
56:24former teacher here at Yale.
56:26And each episode focuses on the
56:28history of Jews at 1 Ivy League School.
56:31And from the beginning from and it's
56:33ups and downs and exactly what we said.
56:36And it gives a it's a very it's a very well.
56:39Run deep dive into why there were
56:43quotas and how the quotas were
56:45lifted and what happened in between.
56:46So gate crushers.
56:49Thank you. And I think, Torsten,
56:50I think that you'll have this
56:53unless I see, unless someone
56:54else has something on the panel,
56:55say this may be the final word, but.
56:58Carefully here. This is seriously,
56:59David again, you got the point. No.
57:01If I ever get it on here again,
57:03we'll let Mike up close and then.
57:09Better. Now I just have to be close enough.
57:11OK, no pressure, huh?
57:12So just briefly about the Germany thing.
57:15Um, what I seen, what I seemed
57:18to hear was that things had been
57:21better post 1945 in Germany and I
57:23would be very hesitant about that.
57:25I think that antisemitism lived
57:28on alive and kicking for decades.
57:30A good friend of mine who actually,
57:32by the way, I can recommend that,
57:34just brought a very powerful
57:36exhibit about fake images.
57:37That is about racist.
57:39Anti-Semitic stereotypes exhibition that
57:41is on at the United Nations in New York.
57:44So if you want to follow up on some
57:46of these conversations and the
57:47interconnectedness between racism and
57:49anti-Semitism that's replaced, OK,
57:50same guy friends and just brought
57:52out a book that actually focuses on
57:54a antisemitic murder in Germany,
57:56in in West Germany,
57:571981 that many of us have forgotten about,
58:00right.
58:00So I think that of course that is
58:03around and I was actually about
58:05to say something more kind of
58:06wrapping up from my side.
58:07Anyways, I'm going to do that now.
58:09As Mark pushed me into the situation,
58:11I believe that.
58:14I see two very sad developments
58:16at the same time,
58:18both in the European German setting
58:20and an American 11 is a accelerating.
58:26Um,
58:27competition of victim experiences
58:29that create rivalries and tensions.
58:32And they each of themselves have
58:35a lot of valid validity to them.
58:37And I also think it would be naive to
58:40think that there would be any harmony soon,
58:42right?
58:42We probably just have to live and
58:44find ways to live with the lack of
58:46harmony because of that competition.
58:48And the second point connected
58:50to some degree.
58:52That is the sad unease with
58:57annoying divergent opinions.
58:58And there are some scholars
58:59like Jonathan Height,
59:01who would say that Eden also comes to
59:02some degree the way that we've used
59:03social media for the last 5-10 years,
59:05right?
59:05So that's also has something
59:06to do with how we communicate,
59:07of course.
59:08So I would hope that there is a little
59:10bit more of a self critical analysis
59:12of how hard it is for us to actually be
59:14in the room with people who annoy us,
59:16were,
59:16irritate us and were able to.
59:18That does not mean that I'm
59:19saying we should not think about.
59:21How to restrain incitement to
59:23hate and violence, right,
59:25that's this difficult balance.
59:26But we need to recalibrate that
59:28relationship and find out how
59:30to deal with that and sit with
59:31that unease at the same time.
59:34Thank you very much.
59:35So stepping back a bit from this
59:38panel and this conversation which
59:39I'm grateful for this was and and
59:42thinking at the the entire conference
59:44and and kind of our purpose here.
59:47As as we've done it and it's, it's really.
59:50The the discussion of of Holocaust,
59:53the Holocaust of the Shoah as well
59:55as genocide large the involvement
59:58of physicians in these crimes as
01:00:00well as but not just the involvement
01:00:02of physicians and others.
01:00:03And so we try to balance that
01:00:05over the course of the program
01:00:07on this conversation needs to be
01:00:09very much about anti-Semitism.
01:00:10It needs to be very much
01:00:12about other things as well.
01:00:13And this is something that that Jacob
01:00:15and I had talked about when we when we
01:00:18first formulated the idea of this I.
01:00:20I'll tell you.
01:00:23Two remarkable things to finish it up.
01:00:25The generally one is.
01:00:28That it's remarkable that so
01:00:30many people can take a day to,
01:00:32to spend some time in this.
01:00:34There's a lot more people on the zoom
01:00:36call than there are here in the building.
01:00:38And you know there's we start out
01:00:40with over 200 in the afternoon
01:00:41we still have over 100.
01:00:42I mean this is,
01:00:44this is wonderful and I really
01:00:45appreciate you folks taking the time.
01:00:47Of course the opportunity that we
01:00:49all had was because of the generosity
01:00:51of my friend Jacob Lindenthal.
01:00:52But not just that,
01:00:53the generosity of their time
01:00:54of the people you see,
01:00:55I'm in front of the room.
01:00:56So many folks worked to make this better.
01:00:59Darren called the manager of our
01:01:01program who put this together,
01:01:03the folks from the IT team who came
01:01:05here and kept us moving forward.
01:01:07I my heartfelt thanks to everybody
01:01:09for doing this.
01:01:11The last I guess I would tell
01:01:13you and I'll tell you which is a
01:01:15true story and it's very brief,
01:01:18I promise.
01:01:18Not brief like the way you guys have brief.
01:01:20I mean really brief.
01:01:23Ah. So some time ago I was with a
01:01:25close friend from high school that
01:01:27wasn't that far out of high school.
01:01:29But of course all my high school friends
01:01:30are making a hell of a lot more than I was.
01:01:32And when it came up as to, you know,
01:01:35why are you doing it this way,
01:01:37which is to say, academic medicine.
01:01:41We talked about the advantages and
01:01:43disadvantages of various life choices
01:01:44we had made, but finally I said,
01:01:47and that's what ended the conversation.
01:01:49As I said, you know what I said?
01:01:51I get to work every day with people I admire.
01:01:54And that was something that the now
01:01:56don't get me wrong, I wish I had
01:01:58this much money as these guys have,
01:01:59but that was something they don't have.
01:02:02That's something that's so
01:02:03many of us here have.
01:02:05And today we certainly have to get
01:02:08to spend the day with people like the
01:02:10four of you and certainly the others
01:02:12and others who are here as well.
01:02:13And Andrew, it's a, it's a, it's a,
01:02:16it's a gift and one for which I'm,
01:02:19I'm truly grateful when whether we're
01:02:21working in the hospital and when we're
01:02:23in the newborn ICU or in the clinic.
01:02:25Or teaching.
01:02:26Wherever we are, we often have the
01:02:28chance to be with people we admire,
01:02:30and that's part of the fuel
01:02:31that keeps us going.
01:02:32It's a shot in the arm.
01:02:33And today I think it's fuel that's going
01:02:34to keep me going for a long time to come.
01:02:36And I hope you as well.
01:02:37Thank you all so much for coming.
01:02:39We'll be doing this again next year.
01:02:40Thank you.