Child Study Center Grand Rounds 10.19.2021

October 29, 2021

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Praise, Sleep Training, and Other Parenting Controversies: Understanding the Science Behind the Debates

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00:02Good afternoon everyone.
00:04Uh, greetings and welcome to grand rounds
00:09and I am very happy with today's speaker.
00:13But before I tell you all about him,
00:15let me give you a heads up.
00:17Next week we're going to have a biological
00:20talk with one of our colleagues at Yale,
00:24Dr Mustafa Khokha,
00:25who's going to be talking about some
00:27of the basic science behind what
00:29we're going to be talking about,
00:31which is development and parenting.
00:33So Kieran will tell us all about.
00:36Doctor Coca next week and today.
00:40I'm really very happy to welcome a
00:44dear friend David were two who is
00:47like the first day of kindergarten.
00:50He just started school yesterday.
00:52This is literally his second day
00:54on a new job and he joins us
00:57from Eugene OR where he is now.
01:00The medical director of Lane
01:02County Behavioral Health in Eugene.
01:04And Dave has moved there literally
01:07last week to start yesterday
01:09from Vermont from Burlington,
01:12where he was for many years as
01:14part of the Vermont machine.
01:17One of the most remarkable child psychiatric
01:20programs in the country with Jim,
01:22who check with Rob Altoff and part
01:25of the group that developed the
01:28Vermont family based care which is
01:31truly inspirational not only in what
01:33they're able to do for children.
01:35And families,
01:36but how they really have moved the
01:38needle in terms of preventive work.
01:41Preventive care.
01:42David, in addition to his work in Vermont,
01:46is a force of nature himself and one
01:50of the forces of his nature is that
01:53he is an excellent communicator and
01:56what I mean by that is that Dave
01:59has given a couple of Ted talks
02:01that are really quite mesmerizing.
02:03He has written two books for I would
02:06say a sophisticated lay audience.
02:09The first one on temperament which was.
02:13Uhm, really.
02:14The kind of a Tour de force for
02:16lay audiences on what temperament
02:18is and how important it is.
02:20In his second book, recent book came out,
02:23if I'm not mistaken,
02:24this year in 2021 or 2020 has unmistakably
02:27good title of parenting made difficult,
02:31and I'm sure that Dave is going
02:33to tell us about that.
02:34Just two more things about his
02:37power as a communicator is that
02:39David has for many years had one
02:42of the most active blogs in child
02:44mental health and child psychiatry,
02:46where he has this wonderful tone in
02:50communicating with parents with caregivers.
02:52And he reminds me in his approach
02:55to some of our greats.
02:56You know from Doctor Spock all
02:59the way back to to Winnicott just
03:03that calming presence.
03:06With parents and finally David.
03:08In addition to his scholarly output.
03:12Has been a wonderful mentor in a
03:14writing and communication mentor
03:16and has for the past several years.
03:17Had a column in Jacob Connect Connect
03:20is the companion online journal by
03:24residents and medical students for
03:27residents and medical students,
03:29and Dave has had their a column called
03:33from bedside from smartphone to bed site.
03:36I think I got it right,
03:37which is how do we apply the
03:40latest doodads in our phones?
03:42And how do we apply the latest
03:44in terms of high sophisticated
03:46science at the bedside so I could
03:50continue Singing Dave's praises,
03:53but I give you from Eugene,
03:55OR where there's a slight delay
03:57in the telephone connection
03:59polls between Eugene and here,
04:02so you might find a little bit of a delay,
04:03but the content will be just as good.
04:06So Dave will talk to us about praise.
04:08You should give a lot of that to your kids.
04:10Sleep training and other
04:12parenting controversies.
04:13Understanding the science behind the debates,
04:15Dave, take it away.
04:18Thank you Andreas and and
04:19thank you for inviting me.
04:21It is truly an honor to
04:23be able to address you.
04:25I know some of you,
04:26but most of you I don't and but
04:30I'm really excited II so wish
04:33that I could be there in person,
04:36but I was just moving 3000 miles
04:38in the other direction and it
04:40just didn't work out for the
04:42timing and and COVID so we will do
04:44the best we can from from here.
04:48So yes, uh, I've been.
04:50I worked at the University
04:52of Vermont for 20 years, uh,
04:54doing some personality and
04:56temperament research,
04:57running a training program, seeing patients.
05:01I'm doing a lot of writing on the
05:03side and just yesterday started
05:06my new job as the medical director
05:09for the Community Health Center
05:12here in in Eugene,
05:14OR so it's a bit of a whirlwind,
05:16but I I'm I'm really thrilled to be here.
05:20For those of you who use social media,
05:22I'm happy to connect on either
05:25Twitter or or Facebook.
05:26My handle is a PD site and then as Andreas.
05:31Mentioned I have been doing a blog I
05:34haven't reported as much as I usually do,
05:37but you can find it at on Psychology Today.
05:39It's called the ABC's of child
05:42psychiatry and I sort of talked about
05:44all kinds of different child mental
05:47health topics on that on that post.
05:52I do need to mention some disclosures.
05:55Obviously.
05:55You know this talk is directly related
05:59to the topic of my book that came out
06:02this year called parenting made complicated.
06:05UM,
06:05so I just need to acknowledge that.
06:08And then I also am a consultant for
06:10a company called Happy Health and
06:12helping them develop a personality scale.
06:17But this is what I'd like to do today.
06:19Kind of divide it up into
06:20three different parts.
06:21The first is I want to just talk about
06:24kind of the current state of parenting
06:26advice so you know how do parents.
06:28How do parents get guidance these
06:30days and how can we contribute to
06:33providing good science based guidance?
06:35And then I want to talk about the
06:39science behind some of the, you know,
06:42just a few selected controversies
06:44and debates that have been going on
06:47for decades with regard to parenting
06:49and sort of give you an idea.
06:51Some of you may be familiar
06:52with some of these already,
06:53but they just sort of give you an idea of
06:56what the science looks like and and how.
06:58It often doesn't really lend itself
07:00very well to sort of quick cut and dry.
07:03One size fits all answers.
07:06And then in and then Andreas was
07:08was mentioned that I I learned that
07:10from my family based approach,
07:12which is a very.
07:15It's an approach to child psychiatry that
07:17really encompasses a lot of health promotion.
07:19A lot of Wellness activities and a
07:21lot of engagement with the parents
07:23and their own mental health.
07:24And I wanna talk a little bit about
07:27how we as clinicians can bring
07:30up the topic of parenting,
07:31really engage families to talk
07:34about this incredibly important.
07:36A very challenging topic in a way
07:39that can be most productive and
07:42and then hopefully we'll have
07:43all the time for a hearing.
07:45Your perspective and any
07:47questions that that come up.
07:50So I'm going to start with this slide,
07:53which I hope isn't that
07:55controversial to to people,
07:57but you never know there was an era
08:00where you know with the twin twin
08:03studies not showing much shared
08:05environmental impact that people
08:07started to have a doubt about how
08:10powerful parenting really was
08:11in terms of child development,
08:13but I think most of us would
08:15agree that this is really a huge
08:18force in shaping a child.
08:21Behavior this and 11 finding that
08:23came out a few years ago that I
08:27found to be incredibly important
08:29and interesting is that if you look
08:32at the impact of parenting for kids
08:35who have different temperaments,
08:37it looks as though children who are
08:40have this more sort of challenging
08:42or what Thomas and chess called
08:44the difficult temperament.
08:45Kids who are you know, quick to react,
08:48maybe more impulsive,
08:50may be harder to soothe.
08:52In some ways,
08:53people may have assumed that that
08:55those are the groups that are sort of
08:57most biologically impervious to parenting,
08:59and it turns out that it's the
09:02exact opposite that these are the
09:04kids who can benefit the most from
09:06very good and positive parenting,
09:08and they can also struggle the most in
09:13the context of more negative parenting.
09:15And we know these days that that that
09:18the influence of parenting as well
09:20as any other environmental factors.
09:22It's not sort of independent
09:24direct effect on behavior,
09:27but it works through all of these
09:30other different pathways that
09:32that shape a child's behavior.
09:34So, you know,
09:35we know that now there's a lot of
09:38interplay between genetics and.
09:40And parenting and trauma and poverty, right?
09:43So all of these things fit together,
09:46and despite the fact that parenting
09:49is such a hugely important topic.
09:52It's often something that we don't
09:54address a lot in in. In our work.
09:57I mean, I, I know some people do,
09:59but it could be a challenging
10:01topic to bring up. It's sensitive.
10:02I think psychiatry had an era where
10:04we blamed everything on parenting and
10:07that probably wasn't our best era.
10:09And so we've kind of moved maybe
10:12180 degrees from that.
10:13And now you know, often,
10:15don't talk about it at all.
10:16But it turns out that if you look that
10:20there not only is there a lot of science.
10:23Uhm, regarding parenting,
10:24but there's also,
10:25you know,
10:26quite a bit of variability and I
10:29think confusion for parents out there
10:31who are sort of looking to try to
10:33find the right thing to do and and
10:36looking for sources of reliable information.
10:39And this is just a little
10:40cartoon that I made to sort of,
10:42I think.
10:43Describe how you know two children
10:45who are maybe at young age
10:47born to have you know slightly
10:50different temperamental tendencies.
10:53One child being kind of more irritable,
10:55one child being a little bit less.
10:58You know how does that?
10:59How does that temperament than actually
11:03trigger or evoke certain things in
11:06the environment that often magnify
11:09those differences overtime?
11:10So think about a child who you know as a
11:13toddler as an infant might be more irritable.
11:16You know what does?
11:17That kind of tend to evoke out of out
11:19of parents and other people you know,
11:21and conversely the child who
11:23was you know less. Irritable,
11:24rewarding, smiling, happy.
11:26You know that child.
11:28Tends to evoke more smiling, warm,
11:30happy things and over time that
11:32can then build into, you know,
11:35bigger differences in that irritability.
11:37And then on you layer.
11:38On top of that you know specific
11:41adverse experiences and you can see
11:44how temperament and environmental
11:46factors like parenting often can
11:49conspire to make what started out
11:52as small differences in behaviors
11:54to be much broader and much wider.
11:57And that's really what we're.
11:58You know, as clinicians.
11:59I mean,
11:59I think this is the pathway that we
12:02are really trying to get involved with.
12:04We want to try to maintain,
12:05you know,
12:06the the snowball effect in a positive
12:08way for kids who who are moving in
12:11that direction but also trying to
12:12sort of prevent this sort of negative.
12:15This this this positive feedback
12:16cycle moving in a in a negative
12:19way for the kids who are moving
12:21in the other direction.
12:25It's interesting to think when we
12:27talk about parenting, why people,
12:29parents, the way they do,
12:31I I often ask this of families.
12:33I think it's a great question to
12:36ask to ask them what their parenting
12:38approaches and how they got there.
12:40Uhm, if for most people it comes from
12:42a lot of different perspectives for
12:44a lot of us we are doing, you know,
12:47just like those commercials.
12:48We're kind of following in the footsteps
12:50of our of what our parents did.
12:53When we we did,
12:54we do a lot of the same things.
12:57Others you know,
12:58sort of do the diametrically opposed
13:00opposite you know they like I'm not
13:02gonna go make my kids go through what
13:04I had to do and so people take a very
13:07strong step in the other direction.
13:10Many of us also parents in a way that
13:13just feels most natural and instinctive
13:15to us and and we don't really think about it.
13:18It's it's relatively new that parenting
13:20has become sort of a science,
13:22and in some areas I would say
13:25a competitive sport.
13:27And before that, people just sort
13:29of did what they felt was right.
13:31And and there are advocates that we
13:33should move back in that direction.
13:35Uhm,
13:36we also understand that that parenting
13:38and child behavior is a two way street,
13:40and so parenting affects child behavior.
13:42But child behavior effects parenting.
13:45Right,
13:45so children will draw out like
13:47I was mentioning before.
13:48If you have a child who's more
13:50irritable that may draw out
13:51more kind of possible responses.
13:53If you have a child who is,
13:55you know,
13:56happier and more engaging than a
13:58lot of parents can look like a star,
14:01even though a lot of it is coming
14:03from the child.
14:04We certainly get advice from parents,
14:06other parents.
14:07We get advice from grandparents right?
14:09And and in these days a lot of parenting
14:12advice is is coming from the Internet.
14:15Coming from,
14:16you know blogs and posts and magazines
14:19and chat rooms and social media and
14:22you know that some of that information.
14:25A lot of that information
14:27can be a little suspect.
14:28And somewhere in there,
14:31hopefully people are are relying
14:33on some science.
14:35From what there is out there.
14:39We all I often have said this and I know like
14:41one of the a lot of people like to say hey,
14:43there's parenting is very challenging
14:46and it is and there are no manuals
14:49out there for raising kids. And in a
14:51sense I think that that might be true.
14:54But in a sense, I think we're
14:56actually overwhelmed with manuals.
14:58They're out there everywhere.
15:01And the problem is that they all
15:03tend to say very different things.
15:06Uhm, so and it's a bit ironic because
15:09I think probably the first you know big
15:12parenting book by the Late Doctor Spock.
15:16You know the general message from
15:18that book was trust your instincts,
15:20but uh, you know.
15:21Despite that being the message it kind of
15:23ushered in this avalanche of parenting.
15:28You know literature and books,
15:30and, UM, you know I've.
15:32I've read a lot of these in the
15:33course of writing my own book,
15:35and a lot of these are, you know,
15:39they make a lot of sense.
15:41But there can be problems,
15:43especially when you try to synthesize
15:45all of the parenting information that
15:48parents are getting bombarded with.
15:50I know at the risk of sounding
15:52a little bit of a snob,
15:54a lot of these books are written by people
15:56who really have no background in child
15:59development or or child mental health,
16:01and that's fine.
16:02It's a lot of good books can come from that.
16:05Uhm, but uh, you know,
16:07there may be some problems
16:10there and most books.
16:12And advice sort of,
16:13almost assumes that everybody is
16:15the same set that there are sort
16:18of these universal solutions or
16:20approaches that you should take.
16:23Uhm?
16:24And that they are,
16:25and that these approaches work
16:27equally well for everyone.
16:29And very often a lot of these
16:31books are written not in like a
16:34boring science kind of article,
16:35but more like a legal approach.
16:37In other words,
16:38you know that they're written
16:39with the idea that you want that,
16:41that that the author is trying to
16:44persuade you to kind of move to this.
16:47Approach or use these techniques.
16:49It's like a legal argument where they're
16:51trying to sort of get you to to buy in.
16:55And often it's like, well,
16:57you know, my kids turned out
16:58pretty well with this approach,
17:00so you know you're you're should as well.
17:02And and a lot of these books
17:05studies are cited,
17:06statistics are used.
17:08But you wouldn't necessarily say
17:10that it's it's balanced if if
17:13there's studies or or literature.
17:15That's kind of argue against the.
17:17The main thesis will often those
17:20those studies are are kind of ignored.
17:24So I I sometimes say there's kind of no,
17:26nobody more confident in their
17:28parenting than the person who's
17:30written read one parenting book
17:31and no one less confident than
17:33the person who just read two.
17:35And.
17:35And that's often because of the
17:36way that sort of science gets used,
17:38or sometimes.
17:40Manipulative.
17:43And it's it's easy to do.
17:45I mean, for those of you who have
17:46have looked in this, it's it's very
17:48hard to get definitive answers when
17:50it comes to parenting studies, right?
17:53I mean there. They're all all the.
17:55The studies are almost always naturalistic.
17:59You know, and and they and
18:01they have to be right?
18:02I mean like we know what would
18:03be the the what would provide
18:05the more definitive studies.
18:06But we could never do them like if
18:08you wanted to find out the effect of
18:10say you know, corporal punishment.
18:12You know the perfect study would be,
18:14well, let's you know,
18:16randomize 1000 people from all
18:18different backgrounds and and
18:19flip a coin and tell half of them
18:21that you could never spank for the
18:23next eight years until the other
18:25half that you have to under these
18:28very specific circumstances.
18:29And who would who would sign up for that,
18:32right?
18:32So we end up having to sort of make the
18:35most of these kind of naturalistic studies.
18:38And then when you have to decide what well,
18:40then what and what's your outcome,
18:42is it you know what's what?
18:44What's a positive outcome, is it?
18:46Kids being happy is a kid
18:49succeeding at school.
18:50Is it, you know, you know,
18:53all these measures that you can,
18:55that you can sort of,
18:56but there are subjective
18:57and their dimensional,
18:58and so this is the literature.
19:01This is the world that we live in.
19:02I think it's true of of sort of
19:04behavioral research in general,
19:06but I think it's a you know,
19:08very true when it comes to.
19:10Comes to parenting,
19:11and so again, it's just.
19:13It lends itself to a lot of
19:16subjectivity and judgment,
19:17and in some cases manipulation.
19:21So how can we kind of move this
19:23along in a positive way when when
19:25parents are sort of stuck in this
19:27very chaotic world where they just
19:29are kind of bombarded by information?
19:31Well we can do our best to understand
19:34that science and try to synthesize that.
19:37And in my view,
19:38I think we have to move away from kind
19:42of these rigidly applied one size
19:44fits all approaches and and understand.
19:47That kids are different.
19:49Parents are different and that the
19:52quote correct answer for a specific
19:55challenge you know really may
19:58not be not the same for everyone
20:00and and so we get to that answer
20:02of it depends which you know.
20:04People hate that right,
20:06like and and but it depends it is it?
20:10It truly is a terrible place
20:11that to sort of end an argument.
20:14You know,
20:14if you're ever talking to the
20:15press and you say it depends,
20:16you know their their eyes just.
20:17Well, I can't you say anything more,
20:19but it actually is a really good
20:21place to to start a conversation.
20:23It depends on what. Oh OK.
20:25Well what if my child is more extroverted?
20:28What if my child is more irritable?
20:30If you can actually start moving
20:32beyond that and the
20:33literature sometimes provide
20:34some guidance for that.
20:36Then we you know can move into a
20:38really productive place and and
20:40then I think where we want to go.
20:42Or in many cases,
20:44is to encourage parents actually under,
20:46you know, learn a little bit
20:49of the science and move from
20:51kind of a more knee jerk,
20:52reactive style of parenting to
20:54one that's a little bit more
20:56thoughtful and a little bit more
20:59deliberate and a little more plan.
21:04So let me get into sort of a few.
21:06I just selected, you know,
21:07three different topics out of many
21:09different controversies out there.
21:11Just to give you a flavor of kind
21:13of where the science is and how we
21:15can kind of adapt this more sort
21:18of it depends kind of thinking
21:20when it comes to specific topics,
21:22so we're going to talk first about
21:24sort of global parenting styles.
21:26Praise and then sleep training.
21:32Alright, so there are a
21:33lot of sort of general.
21:34A lot of the books that are out there
21:36on parenting summer very specific on,
21:38you know specific topics,
21:39but many of them advocate for
21:42a specific type of approach
21:44and there are a lot out there.
21:46I would say you know five of them
21:48kind of the the ones that the
21:50public at least hear about the most.
21:52One of course is helicopter parenting.
21:54That nobody likes to say that
21:55they're in a helicopter parent.
21:56That's a term that is more
21:58derogatory and used by people who
22:00take other approaches to describe.
22:02Kind of this more intensive type work
22:07where parents are very involved with
22:09kids there sometimes running interference.
22:12There kind of restricting some of their
22:16their freedom but also wanting kids
22:18to be kids and not have to not have
22:21them being burdened with adult things.
22:23It's a very you know.
22:24I think you've all you're all familiar with
22:27this and and it's it is certainly you know,
22:30maybe the dominant sort of approach.
22:32Especially,
22:33I would say among sort of middle upper class,
22:36you know white families, but you know
22:39very common you know across the country,
22:41but you know there are others,
22:43probably the opposite of this is you know
22:46what's been termed free range parenting,
22:48which is a much sort of back off.
22:50Encourage independence,
22:51let kids do what they're gonna do.
22:54Let them take some risks.
22:56Understand that the world isn't quite
22:57as dangerous as you may think it is.
22:59You know it.
23:00It's, uh, you know.
23:01Clearly a different step.
23:03And then there's, UM.
23:06There's a, you know what's been
23:07called tiger parenting or what.
23:09I sometimes called old school parenting.
23:12Tiger parenting is more, you know,
23:16heavily, more supervising,
23:17more achievement oriented scheduling.
23:19Lots of you know, music lessons,
23:22art lessons, extra academic prep.
23:26Whereas old school is more
23:27sort of the parents.
23:29Often the dad is in charge and the
23:33disciplinarian and and then the another
23:36one is is is what's called attachment
23:39parenting and that that one comes up,
23:41especially among very young kids.
23:44It's kind of quite different from the one you
23:46know you might call the old school parenting.
23:49It's it's more about attunement,
23:51sensitivity, responsiveness, less about.
23:56Punishments and uhm?
23:59Uhm, you know and and and and then.
24:01For infants it gets into things like.
24:04Uh, the you know,
24:05sharing a bed and sleep training issues,
24:08but we'll talk about it in a bit,
24:10but this is the language
24:12that the public hears.
24:14And you know these,
24:15have you know very different implications.
24:18I mean, and this is a just example.
24:19Very typical, say,
24:21scenario that might play out,
24:24right?
24:24So let's say we had that a 6 year
24:26old boy who's playing in the four
24:28year old sister comes in and starts
24:30to mess with the Lego structure
24:32that the the boy has made and
24:35this gets into an argument.
24:36And then it ends up into a fight and finally
24:39the brother hits the sister,
24:40knocks her to the ground.
24:41Now both kids are crying and the.
24:45The son is saying his Legos are ruined
24:47and the and the daughter is upset and
24:50then the say the mother comes in.
24:52You know what would you do in that situation
24:54and and how do the different approaches
24:57sort of suggest different courses of action?
25:01So if you are a free range mom,
25:04you might say I'm I'm not a,
25:06you know police officer,
25:07I'm staying out of this.
25:08You two need to work this out.
25:10Uhm, you know,
25:11figure this out for yourself.
25:14Uh, if you were more of an old school,
25:16or maybe a tiger parent,
25:17you might give the sun a time out.
25:20You might even spank the
25:22sun or striking his sister.
25:25You wouldn't worry too much about expressing
25:28you know some outward levels of anger.
25:31Come if you are more coming
25:33from the attachment school,
25:34I think rather than to give a time out,
25:37you would try to give the son of time
25:40in try to sort of get down on his level
25:43kind of Co regulate helping him calm down.
25:46Have a conversation about what
25:48happened and try to talk about
25:49how to do things differently.
25:51Try to empathize with you,
25:54know the feelings that the son and
25:56daughter had encouraged to use,
25:57the words you probably wouldn't
25:59use any kind of a punishment.
26:01And then more sort of the
26:02modern style or the helicopter.
26:03Or maybe you you know you saw
26:05something online and you said oh what
26:07I need to do is shower attention
26:09on the daughter and that will.
26:11You know that will be the the path out
26:13and that will help the sun realize you
26:16don't get attention for misbehaving.
26:18Or maybe you'd give the toy at time out.
26:20That's another new technique, right?
26:22You put the toy away.
26:24But it,
26:24whatever you would still probably
26:26stay in the room,
26:28and you might even like use
26:30yourself as a physical barrier
26:32to make sure that the kids don't.
26:34Uhm, kind of repeat the same thing.
26:38So you know these these different
26:40approaches really do end up sort of
26:43leading to different techniques and
26:45strategies, and parents often want to know,
26:47well, you know what?
26:48What would you do?
26:49Or you know what is?
26:50What is the right answer and all of
26:52these different approaches I think,
26:54have you know,
26:56are logical in some ways they
26:57can be useful in some ways.
26:59The question is,
27:00you know there's one shows superiority
27:02over the other or or is it more that
27:06some kids respond to different types?
27:08And what can be confusing when you try
27:11to mix sort of what the public here is
27:13about the different styles of parenting.
27:14Is that the academic world
27:17doesn't use any of these terms,
27:19and they you know you don't
27:20read studies about tiger,
27:21parenting or or helicopter parenting.
27:25You know what you have is
27:27this structure that's existed
27:28for decades where you have kind of this
27:31two by two table and there are four
27:34parenting types based on whether parents
27:37are high or low in a dimension of.
27:39Affection and warped and the other
27:41dimension of supervision and control.
27:43And, uh, you know there,
27:46there's the and unfortunately,
27:47the two of these words are almost
27:49identical and fouls everybody out,
27:51but that's what we have right now.
27:53So if you're high in both warmth
27:55and high in supervision and control,
27:57that's authoritative.
27:59Hi and supervision and control but
28:01low and work that's authoritarian.
28:04Uhm and then high in a warmth below and
28:07control is more of the permissive style.
28:11But this is the academic language.
28:12How do you map those two things
28:14on so you know?
28:15I think if you ask the the sort of
28:18major advocates of the of the more
28:20popular types that all say that
28:22they're they're advocating for an
28:25authority and authoritative approach.
28:27But this was my attempt to sort of map,
28:31you know how the more popular approaches
28:34sort of map on to the more academic
28:37structure with the modern parenting.
28:40You know most of them.
28:41Sure.
28:43You know clustering around the authoritative.
28:48But you know some some movement with
28:50the tiger and old school being a little
28:53more authoritarian and free range.
28:54Being a little bit more on the Commission.
28:58But how about it? It depends, right?
29:01I think most of us, you know,
29:02hearing those scenarios might say, well, uhm.
29:04It might be different depending
29:06on the child's temperament or the
29:08culture or other things, so you know,
29:11I think when you look at the.
29:14The literature you find that often
29:16there isn't a cut and dry answer that
29:19that works best, I think certainly.
29:21The bulk of the research tensive
29:24suggests that the authoritative
29:27approach tends to be related to.
29:30Better outcomes in a lot of different ways,
29:32but there are some exceptions to that,
29:34and one of them is culture.
29:36UM, a lot of the research on authoritative
29:39parenting comes from a kind of middle
29:42class white non Hispanic families
29:44and some studies show that the.
29:47Sort of.
29:48The superiority of the authoritative
29:50approach doesn't hold up quite
29:52so much in in some other groups.
29:55Come and temperament maybe a little
29:57bit different so you know there was
29:59another study that shows that the
30:00more permissive style was actually
30:02related to to more problems for kids
30:05who are higher on anxiety, you know.
30:07So there are these.
30:08It depends factors that really come
30:11into play and and people would say,
30:12like you know what I should do is what works.
30:15You know instead of sort of blindly
30:17and rigidly following one line,
30:19you try something and and observe.
30:21And if it's working great, just go with it.
30:24And if it's not. You sometimes need to shift.
30:29And one thing that I will sometimes
30:32advocate for and talk to parents about it.
30:34And I know this sounds almost.
30:37In complete contradiction to
30:38what Doctor Spock says and and I
30:41don't mean it to be because I,
30:42I think actually we have to parent
30:44instinctually and we have to do things
30:46we have to parent in a way that.
30:48Comes naturally to us, but.
30:50I often encourage families to sort of
30:53think about their own temperament,
30:55and I sometimes think that sometimes.
30:57What parents need to do is take a
31:00couple steps in the opposite direction
31:02of what comes most naturally to them.
31:05And by that I mean that if you're a
31:08parent who you know instinctually.
31:12Wants to be your child's best friend.
31:14You really don't like having to do
31:16anything in terms of supervision or
31:18setting limits, and that is hard for you.
31:21Well, maybe you know that's a place where
31:24you need to to work on it and take a step.
31:26Being a little bit more in
31:29the authoritarian direction.
31:30And conversely,
31:31if you're the kind of parent who.
31:34You know,
31:35has trouble showing affection has
31:38trouble showing warmth and you
31:39may sort of say,
31:40well I I'm I'm an old school parent
31:42that's that's what fits me well,
31:44you know,
31:45maybe you know that's the kind of
31:47parents that actually could move a
31:49step and try to be a little bit more
31:51playful and and and warm and so.
31:55You know,
31:55in some cases I think you know you have to.
31:58You have to parent in a way that
32:00that that you can do,
32:01but I think sometimes taking a
32:03step away from your temperament,
32:05you know swimming against your
32:06temperamental tide a little bit
32:08can be very useful for kids.
32:13Any new move now to praise.
32:15Uhm, another topic in here.
32:18Uh, so let me just start with this.
32:20So again, like what our options here
32:22are six year old Dr draws a picture
32:25and brings it to their parents.
32:27And says look, look what I did.
32:31What's the best way to respond to that?
32:33Should you say what a beautiful picture?
32:36You're a terrific artist.
32:39You're the best artist in your class.
32:43You really worked hard to get your
32:45drawing just right. Or I probably
32:47would have used orange in that spot.
32:50So let's think through a little bit about
32:53the the literature about praise and,
32:55and this is also an area that it has become,
32:58you know, very controversial praise.
33:01On the one hand is something that is sort of
33:04built into the authoritative parenting style.
33:08Most evidence based approaches to kids
33:11who struggle with oppositional defiant
33:13behavior talks a lot about praise,
33:15encourages a lot about praise.
33:17But as you all know,
33:18there also is this kind of.
33:20Backlash out there that's saying, well,
33:22we've gone too far for for praising kids
33:25for breathing it's getting too much.
33:28Everyone is getting a trophy.
33:30You know you know we're turning
33:32everyone into narcissists so you
33:33know what do we actually know
33:35about this and and are there some?
33:37It depends factors that we
33:39want to be thinking about.
33:41The praise you know, why do we use praise?
33:43We really use praise for two reasons.
33:45One as a as sort of a cold steely
33:48reinforce are just like those pellets
33:50that the pigeon spec for food.
33:53We use it because we want if we
33:55see something a child is doing,
33:57we use praise to try to make the
34:00probability of that happening again go up.
34:03But we also use praise as a self esteem
34:06builder to help children sort of build
34:09that inner sense of value and efficacy.
34:12Uhm?
34:13But this is where you know and and and
34:15certainly you know praise has been,
34:18you know, highly endorsed by,
34:21you know, all of you know a lot of
34:22our major professional organizations.
34:24I think I mentioned all this.
34:26But there is, you know.
34:27Again, there is this, UM.
34:30Their counter argument that,
34:33UM,
34:34that you know if you use praise
34:37too much that.
34:39That either children will become
34:40sort of impervious to it,
34:42it just loses its value just like any
34:44any currency that gets over that there's
34:47too much of it kind of loses its value,
34:50whereas some kids might sort of get
34:52addicted to the praise and and and
34:54they start doing things not because of
34:56the intrinsic motivation or you know,
34:58not because they want to do it,
35:00or because they find something
35:02intrinsically valuable.
35:03But because of the praise and you know,
35:05there is some some research to that that
35:07that you know if you put in a lot of.
35:09External motivators that sometimes
35:11kids will lose their interest,
35:13their intrinsic motivation.
35:14So you know what do we know
35:16about this? So here. Uhm, you know what?
35:19Probably is one of the biggest. It depends.
35:21Factors is not so much on the type of child,
35:25but actually the type of praise.
35:27And there is an interesting research about.
35:31The different types of praise.
35:33So in in in some of the letter chair they
35:35divide up phrase into what's called person,
35:38praise and process praise.
35:40So person. Praise is a statement
35:43that's directed as as at traits.
35:46So that would be something like you
35:47are a fast runner or you or smart,
35:49or you're so pretty.
35:51You know you're describing a trait,
35:54whereas process praise is describing a
35:57specific behavior or an effort or method.
36:00You know you train.
36:02So hard for that that race so.
36:04There is a.
36:06You know, and I'm sure some of you are
36:09familiar with some of this work, but.
36:12You know there is some evidence
36:14to suggest that that person prays
36:15contributes to something which
36:17that's called a fixed mindset.
36:19Which is the idea that.
36:22That achievements or that
36:24success is sort of built in,
36:28and that you're sort of born with it,
36:30or you're not.
36:31Versus sort of a growth mindset.
36:33Which is that success is something
36:35that you can earn that takes practice
36:37and that you have to sort of keep
36:40at it over and over again and fail
36:42a lot and keep working better.
36:45Uhm,
36:45and there is some evidence that the
36:47that the person prays contributes
36:49to this idea of a wall laugh.
36:51I'm this person saying I'm smart.
36:54You know,
36:54I don't wanna I don't want them
36:56to find out otherwise and so you
36:57get into a more sort of defensive,
36:59protective mindset where you
37:01don't want to challenge yourself.
37:04You don't want to reveal to anyone
37:06that you may not be as brilliant
37:09as everybody thinks you are.
37:11Uhm, whereas of the North growth mindset,
37:16you know you actually want to
37:18just sort of jump in there and
37:20be challenged and succeed.
37:21And there was this, I think a great study.
37:26That was done a few years ago that
37:28cut that really looked at this and
37:30they they were little deceitful.
37:31So they went into these homes
37:32and they said that we were doing
37:34a quote language study.
37:35But what they're actually doing
37:37is just sort of categorizing
37:39everything that parents and kids
37:41said to each other and we're really
37:44looking at praise and looking at
37:46this how the different types of
37:48praise might be related to.
37:50Uhm?
37:51You know motivation,
37:53structure,
37:54and academic academic achievement later on,
37:57and II.
37:58You know it's just an interesting
37:59study on some of the basic statistics,
38:01so it turns out that across the board
38:04phrase was about 3% of what parents say,
38:06but that there was actually huge differences
38:09in families on how much praise they utter.
38:12So you know the high praise families might
38:15save 16 times as much praise as as the low.
38:19The note,
38:20the low praise families.
38:22Parents tended to have a style of
38:24praise so that there were, you know,
38:26parents tended to use more person,
38:27praise, or process praise.
38:29But really, you know what we
38:31were really interested in.
38:32What they found was that more
38:35process praise was associated to.
38:37To like challenging tasks
38:39so like being pushed,
38:41and to have more of a growth mindset
38:43to see success as something that
38:45was real result of effort whereas.
38:49Uhm? Kids who had more person
38:52praise was the opposite,
38:54and then when they followed these kids out,
38:55even into kindergarten,
38:56they're actually tended to
38:58be differences in terms of
39:00academic achievement as well.
39:03Another study up and they used to a
39:07design called across leg panel modeling.
39:09That's that's pretty good
39:11at at at cause and effect.
39:13Also found that sort of
39:16overpraise sort of overvaluing.
39:18Empty inflated praise was related to
39:21kind of more child narcissistic traits,
39:24while self-esteem was really
39:27predicted by parental warmth.
39:30Another interesting component that I
39:32I think is worth talking about is they
39:35looked at sex differences and they
39:37found that boys tended to hear more,
39:39proportionately more processed
39:41praise than girls.
39:43And that also kids who tended to
39:46have lower and lower self esteem also
39:48tended to hear more person praise
39:51which then ended up sometimes sort of
39:54undermining and and leading to more
39:56feelings of shame after a failure.
39:58So these kids that we would love
40:00to be able to just sort of help
40:02them by saying the right thing.
40:04It turns out that you know if you if
40:07you offer praise that tends to be
40:10unearned or inflated even with the best.
40:13With intentions it can.
40:14It can sometimes backfire.
40:18And then another part about praise
40:19that I think is really important,
40:21is that sometimes you know we have to
40:24be focusing not just on the praise,
40:26but on the opposite.
40:28And there is. You know,
40:30some good evidence that you can really
40:34undo the positive effects of praise with,
40:37you, know, just a few really harsh
40:41negative kind comments.
40:42So you know you could utter 10 good jobs,
40:47but if you then say you know
40:49what's wrong with you when you're.
40:51When you're really upset that that
40:52can really undo a lot of that,
40:54and so for a lot of families,
40:57what we need to be doing is not
40:58only just talking about you know
41:00what types of praise can be useful,
41:02but also trying to help families.
41:04Do you know,
41:05avoid some of these really negative
41:08comments that that overtime can
41:10really have a negative effect?
41:14So overall,
41:15I mean I think praise is a good thing.
41:18I do worry that I do worry a
41:20little bit about the sort of the
41:23public idea that that overall,
41:25we're running a appraise surplus with kids I,
41:29but sometimes I wish we could just
41:31kind of re distribute it a little bit.
41:33There's still,
41:34I think there's a lot of kids who probably
41:37could hear a lot more praise in their lives,
41:39and there may be some that are hearing
41:42too much and it's much more of sort of.
41:44And it depends.
41:45And again,
41:45it may be that the reason that
41:47there's a picture Will Smith.
41:48There is, you know again for the,
41:51for the parents who really struggled.
41:53So if you know the movie he was
41:55kind of a narcissistic guy and he
41:56could never tell but tell people.
41:58Good job and with some help he finally
42:01you know was able to start saying good
42:04things about other people and you know,
42:07I think that maybe you know
42:09the way that we sometimes want
42:10offer our guidance for parents.
42:12You just.
42:12You know, they really gravitate to this.
42:14Oh no participation, trophies,
42:16praise needs to be earned,
42:17while those maybe the the families were.
42:20They could use, you know,
42:21a little bit more praise in their life.
42:26So let me go to the third
42:28area sleep training.
42:28This has been a controversy forever and
42:32by sleep training you know what we're
42:35talking about are specific techniques
42:37that people use to help infants.
42:40Well, they say get sleep through the night.
42:42Nobody actually sleeps through the night,
42:44yeah, but what we're really talking
42:46about is children being able that
42:48when they do have these little slight
42:50awakenings that we all have during the
42:52night that they can get themselves
42:53back to sleep rather than crying or
42:56needing to have a parent sued them.
42:59And this is a as as many of you know,
43:02it's very very common.
43:03Probably about half of intense struggle
43:06with staying asleep on their own and it's
43:08become an incredibly controversial area.
43:11For a long time, a lot of the advocacy
43:14was really against sleep training.
43:17You didn't see a lot of advocacy for it,
43:19but as some of the data regarding
43:22bed sharing and and SIDS,
43:24which is a complicated literature
43:26in and of itself.
43:28Started coming out.
43:29You've actually started to see
43:31pushback where advocates of of
43:34of not having infants share beds,
43:37and this was a very provocative
43:39public safety message from Wisconsin,
43:41where they are basically arguing that
43:44sleeping with your young infant is
43:46just like having them sleep next to
43:49a meat cleaver. But you know this is.
43:51You know why this has become
43:54a very contentious topic.
43:55Uhm, parents.
43:56Expect that when you have a baby,
43:58you're not going to sleep well.
44:00It's kind of a badge of honor.
44:02It's often sort of the first question
44:04that a lot of new parents get.
44:06Uhm, and people put up with it,
44:08but the literature really shows that
44:11that that fatigue is really no joke.
44:14That parental fatigue, you know,
44:17is related to depression.
44:19Feelings of burnouts,
44:21higher rates of accidents, and even you know.
44:25Parents feeling,
44:26you know,
44:26having a shorter fuse and and having
44:29more sort of punitive parenting.
44:32So a lot of people when they think
44:33of sleep training, they think of
44:35this guy which is Richard Ferber,
44:36who was the former director of the Boston
44:39Children Sleep Clinic and published
44:41in 1985 a a book called, You Know,
44:45Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems.
44:46And here he basically advocated for using
44:50a particular sleep training technique,
44:53which many of you I'm sure know about
44:56where where parents are encouraged
44:59to wait progressively longer periods
45:01of time before going in to comfort
45:04their infants with the idea that
45:06you know you do this technique
45:08for a matter of days and children
45:10will learn to sleep on their own.
45:13This is he's become synonymous was
45:15with what's called the crying it out.
45:18This technique, which way?
45:20And it's a bit ironic because.
45:23Forever, never.
45:24Actually he doesn't advocate kids,
45:26just be you know parents ignoring
45:28kids until until infants sort of
45:31fall asleep out of exhaustion.
45:33He this this sort of progressive
45:36comforting at longer intervals was
45:38his way of sort of the kinder and
45:41gentler approach to the true crying
45:43it out which which was you know,
45:46often advocated before him.
45:48But nevertheless,
45:49you know that's how politics works,
45:50and he's been sort of.
45:53You know, associated with this,
45:54crying it out? There are some.
45:58Other techniques though,
45:59that I think a lot of people
46:01are not aware of that are also
46:03sleep training techniques.
46:04There's one that's called camping out,
46:06where instead of adjusting the time
46:08intervals of when you go comfort your child,
46:11you adjust your physical proximity.
46:14So for a few days you help your child.
46:16You're standing right by the crib,
46:18then a few days you move
46:19to the middle of the room,
46:21then for a few days you moved
46:22halfway out the hallway.
46:24You know you slowly move away.
46:27There are other techniques.
46:29Out there,
46:30that and many of them don't involve
46:32any actual sort of prying it out that
46:34that people are less aware of it,
46:36but the the the Ferber isation technique
46:39is probably the most widely known,
46:41and it gets very heavily criticized.
46:44This is someone who also is one of my
46:46Co bloggers on Psychology Today and and,
46:49and she writes blogs that this
46:52is probably been viewed a million
46:54times and she makes claims that.
46:56That sleep training techniques
46:57makes kids less telligent,
46:59less healthy, more anxious.
47:02Come and then she has.
47:05Is citation so it looks very scientific,
47:08but when you actually go to the citations,
47:10none of them are actually
47:11about sleep training.
47:12In infants.
47:12They're actually about like giving
47:14monkeys cortisol to drink for a month,
47:16or about the effects of of abuse.
47:19You know, physical abuse and abandonment.
47:23So you know it's a little,
47:25I think a little sneaky in terms of
47:28you know how the literature gets used.
47:31But when you actually look at people
47:33who have really tried to study this,
47:35so this is a meta analysis that was
47:38done about sleep training techniques.
47:41It was found out that they
47:43were overall quite effective.
47:44Uhm, but that one technique
47:47is not superior to others.
47:49Uhm, but there's very little influence.
47:52We're very little literature on the different
47:55types for different subpopulations, so.
47:57You know what do you do
47:59if your kids more anxious?
48:00What if you do with a kid
48:01who has a trauma history?
48:02What do you do if a kid
48:04is like super energetic?
48:06And there's also really no evidence this
48:08was something Ferber said in his first book,
48:10and then backed away from this claim that
48:12if you don't use sleep training techniques,
48:15your kids will never learn how to self
48:17regulate or be able to self soothe.
48:19They're actually really isn't
48:21evidence for that.
48:23And and and Ferber axe himself
48:25actually backed away from this.
48:28But what people really are
48:29interested in also is well.
48:31Or are there any long term negative
48:33effects and many of the studies
48:35that have looked at that and
48:37there's just a handful really.
48:39Have come from Australia and
48:41one study sort of had followed
48:43people at different intervals.
48:46They found that you know in the short term,
48:49so I think this was maybe around
48:51one year that the sleep training
48:54techniques were effective.
48:55And that both the child and the
48:58and the parents got better sleep.
49:00And moms had less depressive symptoms.
49:03And then when they followed
49:05these kids at six years.
49:07And looked at the kids
49:08who had been randomized.
49:09Half of this group were
49:11randomized to learn sleep.
49:13Sleep training techniques
49:15and half weren't basically,
49:16and then they followed these kids at age 6.
49:19And they looked at everything you
49:21could imagine. They did attachment.
49:23Strange situation, cortisol levels,
49:25locking box.
49:27You know everything you could look
49:28at and they could not find any
49:30difference actually between the group
49:32that received the sleep training
49:34techniques and and things that didn't.
49:38So you know, putting it all together,
49:40uhm, you know what I will recommend to
49:43families is that I I it's really hard to
49:46argue that sleep training techniques,
49:49especially the ones that don't
49:51involve any crying it out,
49:53are linked to any kind of long term harms.
49:55But that being said,
49:56for kids who are particularly
49:57anxious or have trauma histories,
49:59I often will recommend that that that
50:02that parents try one of the other kinds
50:05of non crying it out techniques first.
50:08Uhm, and also considering, you know,
50:11consider the parents temperament to.
50:12I think there are some parents who feel
50:15like they're doing something wrong if
50:16they don't apply these techniques and.
50:18Uhm, you know we don't really
50:20have evidence of that either.
50:21So certainly you have to be careful.
50:23I think of the young infants and
50:25and kids and and that literature,
50:27but if you're talking about toddlers,
50:30you know.
50:30And I think we can give permission
50:31to families to.
50:32Do you know what they want if
50:35they're comfortable with it and.
50:36They're comfortable either letting
50:37them keep their going into the room,
50:39or having the kids come into the bed,
50:41which happens quite a bit,
50:43you know, I I,
50:44I think sometimes we have bigger fish to fry.
50:48For the last couple things,
50:49I'll just sort of say is just that was
50:52just to hopefully give you a little bit
50:54of a flavor of of of the science behind
50:56some of these parenting controversies.
50:58You know,
50:58how do we?
50:59How do we talk about this?
51:00How do we engage 'cause I?
51:01I think one of my take home messages
51:03that I I I think we as clinicians,
51:05because parents are so confused
51:07because there's so much disinformation,
51:09misinformation out there.
51:11I think it's really important
51:13to engage families about about
51:16parenting techniques and.
51:17In a way that helps them feel supported and
51:21not blamed and so some techniques that are,
51:25you know,
51:26things that I often talk
51:27about is change is slow.
51:29I sometimes use the analogy of an
51:31ocean liner turning very slowly and
51:33you know a lot of forces apply,
51:36but it doesn't seem like the boats
51:38moving anywhere but but slowly over
51:41time it does about choosing your
51:43battles and picking,
51:44picking things that are higher priority.
51:49Uhm, you know setting realistic goals.
51:52And just you know,
51:53and and and the importance of of warmth.
51:56Uhm, I could.
51:57I could do a whole talk on this,
51:59but you know,
52:00you read the literature.
52:02You know the importance of parental warmth,
52:05that positive energy that support.
52:09It's just kind of not going to
52:11the dark side and getting that
52:14negative irritable reactive mode.
52:16It just seems so important and
52:17I was just so many studies.
52:19It's just they just keep coming up
52:21showing how important warmth is
52:22and I used to kind of dismiss that.
52:23Like Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
52:25Workflow 4th, I don't dismiss that
52:27anymore and I and I think that that's really.
52:30One of the reasons why it's important
52:31for for parents to be able to pay
52:33attention to their own well being
52:35their own mental health just so
52:36they have enough gas in the tank.
52:39You know, when they're you know when
52:43they're parenting their kids so.
52:45Parenting discussions are hard.
52:46I think a lot of parents already
52:49come to us feeling blamed and guilty
52:51and can quickly get defensive and.
52:56You know the way that I've I've kind of
53:00learned to try to to help with this is.
53:02Is to not have this sort of old.
53:04You know your child is messed up
53:06because you screwed up and you know
53:08that's just gonna turn people off.
53:10It's probably not true.
53:11It's and instead really talk about fit.
53:14And and talk about what is your,
53:16what is the child pull out in you
53:18and how are you responding to that?
53:20I have a picture.
53:21This used to be a picture of Vermont mount.
53:23Now it's an Oregon mountain but I
53:26II sometimes say that kids just
53:28like like big mountains are capable
53:31of generating their own weather.
53:32And So what we really have to be able to do,
53:35is it?
53:35It might be very natural for a parent
53:38to respond in a more irritable way.
53:41But that that may not be the best
53:43response and we have to help families
53:46kind of override this order often use
53:49overrides kind of the natural tendency.
53:52I often like in my opening sessions,
53:55I asked parents, you know, I said,
53:57what are you most proud of?
53:58Talk about parenting for a minute.
54:00What are you most proud of as a parent
54:02and what are your bigger challenges?
54:04And when you ask the question that way,
54:06a lot of questions have an assumption
54:08built into them and the assumption
54:09built into that question is that
54:11everybody is doing some things well and
54:13everybody is struggling in some areas.
54:14And let's talk about it.
54:16Let's get that out of there.
54:18And let's and let's just talk about it
54:19a lot and and and I found that question
54:21would be very helpful and parents will say,
54:23well,
54:23I'm really good at it,
54:25but I struggle here and and it
54:27it just it opens things up for
54:30like or discussion from there.
54:32For finishing up,
54:33I know we're out of time here.
54:35And I know I covered a lot of ground,
54:37but I think the summary points
54:39are that as much as we would
54:41like them to be the the quick,
54:43you know,
54:44do this for every kid kind of parenting
54:47approach really is not going to be
54:49productive for a lot of people.
54:51You know we do best when we
54:53try to encourage parents to be
54:55thoughtful and deliberate,
54:56to be kind of like little
54:57scientists in some ways.
54:59But we have to appreciate the
55:01variability in that the one size
55:03fits all doesn't really work.
55:05I also just like to mention that there is a
55:07lot of science out there about parenting.
55:09It's worth understanding.
55:12But it's it's difficult.
55:14It's often inconclusive and
55:16sometimes outright contradictory,
55:17so it's not the easiest literature
55:20to work with.
55:21Uhm, but you know,
55:23just like a,
55:24just like with parents you
55:26know understanding it all.
55:27Being perfect is route is is
55:29neither an achievable goal.
55:31It's probably not even a desirable goal.
55:33And that a lot of parents can really do well
55:37when they admit their mistakes.
55:39Try something different.
55:40Acknowledge that.
55:41Show flexibility and model
55:43that for their kids so you
55:47know perfection is is is not,
55:49is not what we're going for here,
55:51but just you know,
55:52a less reactive kind of
55:54more deliberate style.
55:58So I will stop there and happy to
56:00entertain any questions or comments.
56:03Thank you so much Dave.
56:04Would you mind just stopping
56:06your share so that we can see
56:09the friendly faces of the crowd?
56:11Yep. OK, uhm any questions.
56:17I just saw Carla Horowitz,
56:21who knows a lot about parenting.
56:24Carla can I put you on the spot?
56:27Carla taught me everything I know
56:30about parenting, so you know,
56:31this is like two Titans of parenting here.
56:35Uhm, what? What I heard was nuanced
56:41and complex and really did bring in
56:44a lot of what we think about when we
56:48try and help parents or be parents.
56:51So I you know I I.
56:55You didn't hit anybody over the
56:56head with anything you you actually
56:58really had a broad expanse,
57:00and I think all of that information is
57:03really helpful, said in a non judgmental way.
57:07But everybody has their own taken
57:10their own vulnerabilities when
57:12it comes to their own kids,
57:14including those of us who are
57:16supposed to be parenting experience.
57:19Yes, I say all the time that being a child
57:22psychiatrist that doesn't make me immune.
57:25I make all the mistakes in the book.
57:27I'm just more aware of those mistakes.
57:34We have time for a couple more questions.
57:36I know Amanda, I don't see you,
57:38but I see you're right and go for diamond.
57:40I am I'm Amanda Detmer, thanks so much
57:44for really fascinating presentation.
57:45Uhm, so I'm a comparative psychologist
57:48and behavioral neuro scientist, and I
57:50actually study monkey models of parenting,
57:52and I always interested in what we can
57:57learn from evolutionary forces, right?
58:01And so, and I'm also a parent of two kids,
58:05and especially I know how
58:07controversial the sleep training is.
58:08And, you know, I really like just on the.
58:11Other side of coming out
58:12of that with young kids,
58:13but I I guess my question is like how
58:16often are a comparative comparative
58:19science discussed with parents?
58:21You know, for example?
58:24Do parents ever hear like it's really?
58:26I'm really hard pressed to think of a mammal.
58:29Any mammal that parks its infant in
58:31another room to sleep alone at night and
58:33so that it's actually an adaptive thing
58:36that infants are disrupted at night.
58:38Or, you know, waking up at night and
58:41and then I kind of related to that.
58:43I'm curious what you think of
58:45the science of breast sleeping?
58:47You know James Mckenna's work
58:48out of Notre Dame?
58:49It's really systematic,
58:51really thoughtful work on the physiological.
58:54And psychological benefits of of
58:56what he terms breast sleeping.
59:01Yeah, I I have to say I don't.
59:02I don't know. I know that literature 10.
59:04I mean one of the chapters in my
59:06book was about breastfeeding in
59:08general and its links to behavior and
59:11intelligence and that controversial area.
59:13Breast sleeping sounds like a little
59:15a subdivision of that, so I can't say.
59:17I know and I I'd love.
59:20I'm gonna have to.
59:21I'd love to read more about this.
59:22The animal literature.
59:23I've seen some things about dogs
59:26and parenting styles about dogs
59:27that I think would be interesting.
59:30And uh, but I'd be fascinated
59:31to learn more how it works with
59:34the primates and monkeys.
59:40We have time for maybe one final question.
59:43I know we have a young parents
59:44in the crowd and we have some
59:46not so young parents and anyone
59:48we do have one question here in the room.
59:50Oh go for it. Hello, I'm Lily Bernard.
59:53Thank you very much for the talk.
59:55Just a question do you,
59:59could you say something about the
01:00:01interaction between the duration
01:00:03of paternity and the increase?
01:00:05Increasing concern about child
01:00:07sleep training like maternity
01:00:09leave and parental leave.
01:00:11Also that forces parents to go
01:00:12back to work and not have to
01:00:15improve the schedule of the kids
01:00:16so that work is again possible.
01:00:21Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't
01:00:22quite catch all of that.
01:00:23The the link between what
01:00:24were the two things? Again
01:00:27my question my as Sumption I would say
01:00:30is that the more we ask parents to go
01:00:33back to work soon after giving birth.
01:00:38The more you have to train the
01:00:41child to sleep at night, yeah,
01:00:43and so questions about maybe
01:00:45comparisons with other countries.
01:00:47For instance, no way where both parents
01:00:50gets one year of parental leave.
01:00:53Both the mother and the father.
01:00:55They can share it, just you know,
01:00:57if you know something about that.
01:01:00Yeah, thank you.
01:01:01Yeah I have. Yeah, one of the other
01:01:04chapters is all about the controversy
01:01:06between stay at home parents and.
01:01:08In early childcare and what we know
01:01:11about that, there was a huge study
01:01:14that was from the National Institute
01:01:16of Child Health and Human Development
01:01:19that actually was built to be the
01:01:22definitive study about about the effects
01:01:25of Nonparental early child care,
01:01:27and it it became a monster study
01:01:30that you know that had a lot of
01:01:32it depends in its own right,
01:01:34but it's worth sort of looking
01:01:37at that that literature.
01:01:38I think one way to make this less
01:01:40political is just as you said.
01:01:42I mean to talk about things like,
01:01:44you know, giving parents adequate
01:01:46time away when they haven't,
01:01:48and a newborn which you know,
01:01:51I think is is a a great thing.
01:01:54And I think we we are behind
01:01:56other countries like like Norway
01:01:57when it comes to that, but.
01:02:01Yeah,
01:02:01I'd encourage you to look at that that study.
01:02:05No, uh, David. I think that
01:02:08you know on this note,
01:02:10uh, you know, hoping that we're all in this
01:02:13country have parental leave for one year.
01:02:15You know a boy can dream up,
01:02:17but thank you so much David for for
01:02:21joining us from Vermont via Oregon
01:02:24and it's been wonderful to have you
01:02:26and we have your contact information.
01:02:28And Amanda, thank you for sharing that
01:02:30link and for wonderful questions.
01:02:32So we will see you all next week.
01:02:34And Dave, you need to come to a.
01:02:37You need to take the director
01:02:39Eugene Newhaven flight.
01:02:39I hear there's a new direct flight so.
01:02:42Awesome, I'm on it.
01:02:44Good. Thank you so much and
01:02:46we will see you all next week.
01:02:48Thanks again Dave. Alright
01:02:50thank you bye bye.